Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[ParanoidDrone]

Garden of Hope doesn't really have much to analyze. The map randomly chooses which platform the stick and bowl are on. The peckish aristocrab will come on either side signified by bubbles. The bridge, stick, and bowl all are destructible and can be rebuilt by pikmin. Players turn small when inside the bowl. The two platforms on the sides act as a scale.

I think after Garden of Hope, Orbital Gate Assault should be done.

Well I can analyze Pekish Aristocrab damage and kill %, HP of the bridge, bowl, and stick, and see if there's a reliable timer before any are rebuilt. The Aristocrab also breaks the bowl and stick as it walks through the stage.

I mean, honestly that's what most of my research threads boil down to. "Here's the layout, here's a list of hazards, here's damage and kill % where applicable, here's pretty pictures, here's a bullet point summary." But I think the simple act of getting the data recorded and available in the first place is an important step, if only so we can avoid statements like "Peckish Aristocrab is stupid, it's a damaging hazard" in favor of "Peckish Aristocrab does X % and kills at Y %, I think this is/isn't reasonable."

 

[MegaMissingno]

Neutral stages don't exist. The whole starter/counterpick is bad because what makes one stage better than another for starting a game.

The starter/counterpick distinction is basically just a shortcut to speed up stage striking. "Nobody's going to end up striking here anyway, so we might as well cross it off in advance." Also, in order for striking to be fair, there must be an odd number of starters, so if the total number of legal stages is even then at least one must be counterpick-only.

IMO the best way to determine what's a starter and what's a counterpick would be to make them all starters (except one if even) for a couple tournaments, then collect data on what gets picked the most and what gets picked the least. Top 5 (or maybe 7) are then your starters.

And on the subject of whether Town and City is too big, it's only the Town form that's big, and only vertically, horizontally the main platform is smaller than FD and then the side platforms put it roughly on par. City is basically a slightly wider Smashville. And I could swear I just read all these arguments about how far crazier things than just a little height are fine as long as they're temporary. Mushroom Kingdom U is about the same size or bigger when certain objects show up, and there's that square thingy on Wuhu. Platforms leaving is also no worse than Wuhu. Duck Hunt's tree isn't quite as tall, but it is permanent. If anyone's seriously going to complain about T&C, how in the hell are all these other stages somehow better? I'm the most conservative one here and even I think it's starter material - I can only think of 4 stages that are more neutral, and we need a minimum of 5.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Guys a quick note for anyone suggesting certain stages as doubles only.

"It's too big for 1v1 but it's okay for 2v2!"

Every match in a 2v2 if you use stocks can become a 1v1 during a battle if one player on each team dies. They also have the potential to become 2v1. So if the stage is too big and can cause degenerate play in 1v1 it probably should not be allowed in 2v2 as if this situation occurs the other team can abuse the stage in that way.

 

[MegaMissingno]

How likely is that to be an issue though, and would it last long? It'll only happen on the last stock (since you can share), and usually there'll be a fair amount of damage on already. And there shouldn't be much worry about 2v1, since those generally end fast anyway - 1 can't get away with camping, and 2 has no need to.

At the very least I'd say at least playtest and see if it's truly a problem or not.

 

[Fenrir VII]

stuff

Ok to be clear, I'm the one saying town and city is too big. I have not argued for mushroom Kingdom u to be legal (I wish it could be), or for wuhu to be a starter (I think it's a solid cp).

In terms of starters, I'd say the most diverse yet neutral 5 stage list (not including a created stage) would be Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, and Kongo Jungle 64.

Now KJ64 is fairly big too, but the high platforms do not move, and there are legitimate differences to make it standout against smashville... So nobody has to strike both if they hate the format for some reason.
I can see the argument for duck hunt as the 5th stage, but like I said before, that stage feels really wonky for a starter with the hiding bushes, tree, and the dog popping up to screw you up.
Speaking of wonky, I could actually see people making an argument for halberd as a starter, based on the feeling people had for it in Brawl.

Imo the list should be
Starter :
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat
KJ64

Counterpick:
Town and city
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Wuhu
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino

Possible CP:
Luigi's Mansion (was legal for years in Brawl)
Norfair (sharking is no longer an issue)
Garden of Hope (I actually don't think it's bad)
Wooly world
PS2
Windy Hill
Orbital Gate
Mushroom Kingdom u (doubtful)
MK8 Mario Circuit (doubtful)
Pilot wings (doubtful)
Kalos (doubtful)
Wrecking Crew (doubtful)
Port Town Aero Drive (are Phantom car hits still a thing?)

 

[HermitHelmet]

Ok to be clear, I'm the one saying town and city is too big. I have not argued for mushroom Kingdom u to be legal (I wish it could be), or for wuhu to be a starter (I think it's a solid cp).

Imo the list should be
Starter :
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat
KJ64

Counterpick:
Town and city
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Wuhu
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino

I don't see Town/City being too big at all, but that's just me.
And what's the love for Wuhu? Doesn't it have that weird Ness OHKO section? Doesn't that section also have a Pirate Ship like thing as in, if you hit the bottom of the boat it's a Spike?

 

[Fenrir VII]

To my knowledge, nobody has been able to recreate the Ness glitch. That type of thing sucks (see Melee poke stadium fall through glitch), but if it's not a consistent issue, it shouldn't kill the stage.

Pirate ship was legal for a while in Brawl, and the transformation only lasts like 10 seconds on Wuhu... Not a bannable offense imo

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't see Town/City being too big at all, but that's just me.
And what's the love for Wuhu? Doesn't it have that weird Ness OHKO section? Doesn't that section also have a Pirate Ship like thing as in, if you hit the bottom of the boat it's a Spike?

If you can reproduce that glitch everyone will be impressed; no one has been able to do so, and weird clipping stuff like that is possible in every smash game (on just about every stage). It was extraordinarily irresponsible for that group to post that stupid youtube video implying that glitch is meaningful. No one should take that glitch seriously until it happens more than once ever.

That boat section in general comes up rarely and doesn't last very long; it's not very hard for all players to just kinda hold out for the couple of seconds that's going on if they're scared of falling under the boat (which isn't hard to avoid if you're not worried about it and want to just fight). @ ParanoidDrone has a thread detailing the mechanics of Wuhu; it's super legal stuff.

 

[Piford]

So some guy claimed he was able to recreate the glitch, and here's how it worked. Ness must be facing leftward, on an exact spot on the boat, and you have less than one second to do it. If you make everything perfectly, the glitch works about 10% of them time. It also only works on Villager and Wario, no other characters. If you can't avoid that you probably aren't really that good of a player, and you could just easily strike the stage. I should not that I still can't recreate it.

 

[HermitHelmet]

If you can reproduce that glitch everyone will be impressed; no one has been able to do so, and weird clipping stuff like that is possible in every smash game (on just about every stage). It was extraordinarily irresponsible for that group to post that stupid youtube video implying that glitch is meaningful. No one should take that glitch seriously until it happens more than once ever.

That boat section in general comes up rarely and doesn't last very long; it's not very hard for all players to just kinda hold out for the couple of seconds that's going on if they're scared of falling under the boat (which isn't hard to avoid if you're not worried about it and want to just fight). @ ParanoidDrone has a thread detailing the mechanics of Wuhu; it's super legal stuff.

Hmm. Wuhu does seem very viable now I've seen that thread, it just feels a little bit off. Maybe because it's a very dynamic stage, but I certainly like it more than Skyloft (for whatever reason)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Port Town Aero Drive (are Phantom car hits still a thing?)

According to ingame tips, the cars can still hit you while standing on some platforms. I haven't had a chance to test the stage myself.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

So some guy claimed he was able to recreate the glitch, and here's how it worked. Ness must be facing leftward, on an exact spot on the boat, and you have less than one second to do it. If you make everything perfectly, the glitch works about 10% of them time. It also only works on Villager and Wario, no other characters. If you can't avoid that you probably aren't really that good of a player, and you could just easily strike the stage. I should not that I still can't recreate it.

Wow. Thats the most complicated glitch I ever heard of. What we basically established here is that it's the most avoidable thing ever.

Good, hopefully with this information people can finally stop yelling ban at it due to one silly video.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If you can reproduce that glitch everyone will be impressed; no one has been able to do so, and weird clipping stuff like that is possible in every smash game (on just about every stage). It was extraordinarily irresponsible for that group to post that stupid youtube video implying that glitch is meaningful. No one should take that glitch seriously until it happens more than once ever.

That boat section in general comes up rarely and doesn't last very long; it's not very hard for all players to just kinda hold out for the couple of seconds that's going on if they're scared of falling under the boat (which isn't hard to avoid if you're not worried about it and want to just fight). @ ParanoidDrone has a thread detailing the mechanics of Wuhu; it's super legal stuff.

Besides, Nintendo actually patches things now, so it may get fixed.

 

[Slyphoria]

Possible CP:
Port Town Aero Drive (are Phantom car hits still a thing?)

Yes. Everything is terrible about Port Town. Cars can (and almost always do) hit you on platforms. Stage hazards come in way too close during traveling movement. It's a terrible stage.

I'd rather Pac-land be legal, or heck, Wily's Castle, because it won't kill you off the top at 0% like the cars do. (This happened twice in Crazy Orders.)

 

[Thinkaman]

I got hit through a platform on Port Town today.

 

[Piford]

Port Town should only be legal in Jigglypuff dittos.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd rather Pac-land be legal

You mean Pac-Land ISN'T Starter material?

 

[Fenrir VII]

No problem. With the new game, I think we need to reconfirm the things that we banned before. Port Town is gonesville

 

[MegaMissingno]

Well you can't camp the walkoffs on Pac-Land since it scrolls, so problem solved right? /s

Like, I think Pac-Land is the perfect example of why "it's just stupid" is a perfectly legitimate reason to ban. Plus we really just shouldn't have too many stages - remember that this was recently an issue in Project M, and there they have built-in striking to help streamline the process. Still people were complaining that it's just too many, and roughly a third of the list got thrown out to trim it down to only 11 at TBH4 recently. For the sake of keeping the list size reasonable, I think it's perfectly fine to be as strict as possible instead of saying "well yeah it has walls and walkoffs and swimming and moves very frequently, but since it's always moving that means it's not that bad, right?"

 

[Piford]

Well you can't camp the walkoffs on Pac-Land since it scrolls, so problem solved right? /s

Like, I think Pac-Land is the perfect example of why "it's just stupid" is a perfectly legitimate reason to ban. Plus we really just shouldn't have too many stages - remember that this was recently an issue in Project M, and there they have built-in striking to help streamline the process. Still people were complaining that it's just too many, and roughly a third of the list got thrown out to trim it down to only 11 at TBH4 recently. For the sake of keeping the list size reasonable, I think it's perfectly fine to be as strict as possible instead of saying "well yeah it has walls and walkoffs and swimming and moves very frequently, but since it's always moving that means it's not that bad, right?"

I already told this to you on the subreddit, but I might as well bring it up here too. There are more problems with Pac-Land than just walk-offs. The part where the log falls there are hardly any place to stand, and the fairy gives invincibility. This means the dominant strategy is to get to the fairy, gain invincibility, and then beat your opponent with 0 risk. More stages are always better for balance and variety until proven though a ton of tournament data otherwise.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well you can't camp the walkoffs on Pac-Land since it scrolls, so problem solved right? /s

Like, I think Pac-Land is the perfect example of why "it's just stupid" is a perfectly legitimate reason to ban. Plus we really just shouldn't have too many stages - remember that this was recently an issue in Project M, and there they have built-in striking to help streamline the process. Still people were complaining that it's just too many, and roughly a third of the list got thrown out to trim it down to only 11 at TBH4 recently. For the sake of keeping the list size reasonable, I think it's perfectly fine to be as strict as possible instead of saying "well yeah it has walls and walkoffs and swimming and moves very frequently, but since it's always moving that means it's not that bad, right?"

Our list size IS reasonable honestly. At least for Hypest we have 14 stages and it's not causing a single problem AT all. There is not point in cutting perfectly good legal stages in such a manner. Project M is a very odd special case.

Nothing should be banned unless it warrants a ban. It needs to be proven banworthy. Any other reason like just being strict for no reason, is a self imposed set of mentally designed rules... And I have a name for folks who do that

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

No, "it's stupid" isn't a legitimate reason to ban. Yes, Pac-Land should be banned, and here are some actually legitimate reasons:

-The stage's lay-out encourages excessive run-away for a large portion of the match, any point at which you have rooftops and such. The nature of the stage makes it tough to stop if the other side is determined.

-The stage has portions during which the stage is extremely hazardous in effect and it is a great burden for lower aerial mobility characters just to survive. This is extremely polarizing against many character types, and the little objects constantly in the way (fire hydrants, chunks of wood) exaggerate this polarizing effect against grounded characters.

-This stage actually does have permanent walk-offs which are actually more exploitable due to the scrolling, not less. Characters like Sonic, Pikachu, and Ness who have good walk-off kill throws who land a throw aimed left (or right if the cycle has gone far enough for the scroll direction to reverse) actually kill over a pretty large area due to the stage scrolling toward them during the throw animation.

-The scrolling speed is variable due to the position of the fighters which means that predicting stage events by watching the clock is not possible for high knowledge players. Further, this means that players are *never* safe from the effects of the scrolling; even if a player positions to the right to try to have some time to do a lengthier set-up, the stage will speed up the scrolling to disrupt it.

There are probably further arguments that could be raised; that was not intended to be comprehensive just enough in total to come together to paint a clear picture. Pac-Land is an overwhelmingly horrible stage, definitely ban-worthy. This fact in no way justifies not critical thinking about the stages; if a stage is actually "stupid", it will have a variety of reasons that you can explain for why it needs to be banned. I heard people say Wuhu Island is stupid several times yesterday, and it really drove me crazy since the stage is so super legit. If you accept people saying a stage is stupid as a reasonable part of dialogue, you have no way to deal with them since stupid is in the eye of the beholder. Insisting upon reasons to ban stages helps avoid that awful situation, and we should be pretty adamant about that.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I feel there are legitimate reasons to ban stages down to a 12 or 14 stage list, both for time constraints and because there are roughly that many good stages.

There are stages that are currently being banned because they are stupid, though...

Luigi's mansion, norfair, PS2, and Wooly World come to mind.
Those stages are not inherently unfair to groups of characters, but they are wonky, and people don't like them. Idk I'm in the camp that I don't want people to be salty about a tournament after feeling like they lost to the stage. I do like a liberal stage list, but at some point, popular opinion should play into it to keep the fan base.

 

[Piford]

I feel there are legitimate reasons to ban stages down to a 12 or 14 stage list, both for time constraints and because there are roughly that many good stages.

There are stages that are currently being banned because they are stupid, though...

Luigi's mansion, norfair, PS2, and Wooly World come to mind.
Those stages are not inherently unfair to groups of characters, but they are wonky, and people don't like them. Idk I'm in the camp that I don't want people to be salty about a tournament after feeling like they lost to the stage. I do like a liberal stage list, but at some point, popular opinion should play into it to keep the fan base.

But those stages are all fair and should be legal, at least until serious issues are found in them. And Pokemon Stadium 2 is actually being seen legal more than I expected. The subreddits Hypest Tournament uses it (Thanks @ LiteralGrill !) and Anther's ladder has it legal (Although they banned Skyloft and Wuhu for no reason). Norfair and PS2 should definitely be legal as they really have no issues that can come from them.

 

[Zzuxon]

I feel there are legitimate reasons to ban stages down to a 12 or 14 stage list, both for time constraints and because there are roughly that many good stages.

There are stages that are currently being banned because they are stupid, though...

Luigi's mansion, norfair, PS2, and Wooly World come to mind.
Those stages are not inherently unfair to groups of characters, but they are wonky, and people don't like them. Idk I'm in the camp that I don't want people to be salty about a tournament after feeling like they lost to the stage. I do like a liberal stage list, but at some point, popular opinion should play into it to keep the fan base.

If people don't like stages that are fair, like Wooly world, they just won't pick them.
"People don't like them" is a totally moronic reason for a ban.

 

[David_give]

So some guy claimed he was able to recreate the glitch, and here's how it worked. Ness must be facing leftward, on an exact spot on the boat, and you have less than one second to do it. If you make everything perfectly, the glitch works about 10% of them time. It also only works on Villager and Wario, no other characters. If you can't avoid that you probably aren't really that good of a player, and you could just easily strike the stage. I should not that I still can't recreate it.

I don't know if I'm the guy you're referring to, but I didn't confirm nearly that much about the glitch. I was able to do it on both Villager and Wario, but I haven't tested with all characters, plus it might be finicky enough that maybe I just wasn't able to do it with some characters, even though it's possible with them. Unfortunately, I forgot to save the Villager replay, but I could still try to recreate it again and post a video. I'm not 100% sure about the facing left thing, but it seems pretty likely, I've tried to do the glitch a bunch of times facing right but I've never been successful. It's also quite possible the glitch exists for other throws/moves.

 

[Piford]

I don't know if I'm the guy you're referring to, but I didn't confirm nearly that much about the glitch. I was able to do it on both Villager and Wario, but I haven't tested with all characters, plus it might be finicky enough that maybe I just wasn't able to do it with some characters, even though it's possible with them. Unfortunately, I forgot to save the Villager replay, but I could still try to recreate it again and post a video. I'm not 100% sure about the facing left thing, but it seems pretty likely, I've tried to do the glitch a bunch of times facing right but I've never been successful. It's also quite possible the glitch exists for other throws/moves.

It was on the subreddit, not sure if it was you.

 

[David_give]

It was on the subreddit, not sure if it was you.

I never posted anything to reddit about my experience with the glitch, so it's not me, but the experience of the person you mentioned are very similar to my own. I thought you might have been referring to my post in the Wuhu Island research thread.

 

[Piford]

I never posted anything to reddit about my experience with the glitch, so it's not me, but the experience of the person you mentioned are very similar to my own. I thought you might have been referring to my post in the Wuhu Island research thread.

Well If you had a similar experience that should further cement that the guy I got it from was right (or at least close to). I forget his username, but he was defending it when someone linked to VGBootcamp video.

 

[Lilfut]

Why do people keep bringing up Orbital Gate as a CP? It's Poke Floats with explosions, guys.

 

[HiNiTe]

As much as I love seeing these discussions of the stages, every time I watch a Wii U tournament on stream, I lose a lot of faith in any somewhat large stage list. People constantly ask "Why is this stage legal?" when there is literally nothing wrong with them, like Halberd and Castle Siege, which were legal in Brawl practically throughout its whole lifetime in US/Europe rulesets.

Duck Hunt is perfectly fine, it has NO hazards, the platforms only slightly change the gameplay, it's fine as a counterpick but it has to be instantly banned just because Robin's Arcfire was misplaced because of the dog (Nairo in particular)? It's a toxic way of thinking that plagues the average Smash userbase to the uneducated. It's no wonder sometimes the Smash base is ridiculed.

It's so pre-emptive to think this way. And I know I shouldn't generalize because of Twitch comments from random nobodies, but it's happened since the Wii U started having tournaments; even the 3DS possibly. 3DS tournaments were so boring and bland because it was practicaly Battlefield 90% of the time.

Whenever someone picks Kongo Jungle 64 and someone gets one kill because of a skillful use of the sharking abilities of the stage, someone will scream "BAN THIS STAGE" and the cycle will continue. The game cannot remain in a healthy metagame if the only stages used are Battlefield and Smashville; at least, this early in its life. In Brawl, the japanese only used 3 stages, but they still used other stages for a few years until they finally trickled down.

I praise Raziek and Capps and other similar TOs that use fun and open stage lists and continues to test various combinations of stages. I hope the stage list remains somewhat average in size, at the very least, and eventually the amount of false "Why is this stage legal?" comments dwindles down as players become more comfortable with the atmosphere of the game.

Also, a bit of a switch of topic here, but I do agree that Pilotwings should be banned. I love this stage, it's fun, there's a nice amount of room and has good energy. But in a tournament setting, where players will do ANYTHING to win, they will abuse a stage to its fullest. Pilotwings promotes camping, unfortunately. It's terrible for spectators, awful for commentators and the clock is too short for it to continue like that.

 

[MegaMissingno]

The game cannot remain in a healthy metagame if the only stages used are Battlefield and Smashville; at least, this early in its life. In Brawl, the japanese only used 3 stages, but they still used other stages for a few years until they finally trickled down.

And yet Japan's scene is perfectly healthy with a conservative list, so I think you've just contradicted yourself here. Hell, they're even cool with playing 64 as a one stage game (Dream Land), and have been doing so since the game came out.

Also, nobody's advocating only Battlefield and Smashville and nothing else. I'm calling for a 6-8 stage list and I haven't seen anyone else suggest fewer. And even I'm fine with Duck Hunt (though I do wonder if the tree might make some matchups rough, we'll see).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

And yet Japan's scene is perfectly healthy with a conservative list, so I think you've just contradicted yourself here. Hell, they're even cool with playing 64 as a one stage game (Dream Land), and have been doing so since the game came out.

Also, nobody's advocating only Battlefield and Smashville and nothing else. I'm calling for a 6-8 stage list and I haven't seen anyone else suggest fewer. And even I'm fine with Duck Hunt (though I do wonder if the tree might make some matchups rough, we'll see).

Smash is, however, on the short list of games the US is decidedly better than Japan at; our way seems to have quite a few advantages and should not be looking to Japan for guidance. I was at a tournament the other day that ran 13 which to me seems like the absolute floor for a reasonable stagelist in this game. Their list was:

Batlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Town & City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill

That list was a bit conservative for my blood; I think there are definitely more good and worthwhile stages in this game than that. Those 13 though were useful in that as I thought about it I realized that was the set of completely unobjectionable stages; there is truly nothing of substance at all that supports a ban of any of those. When talking about stages outside of those 13, I consider many ban positions to have misguided opinions contrary to my own, but when talking within those 13, I have yet to see a pro-ban position I don't consider just objectively wrong since they always seem to be fuzzy "I don't like it" arguments or arguments on the basis of objectively unreasonable positions (like the Wuhu glitch that is super obscure trivia barely affecting two match-ups or Windy Hill being "big" when it's really not). I just don't see how we can get lower than this without banning for the "I don't like it" reason which is not a reason in any real sense, and I can tell you from experience the game plays GREAT on all of these stages so it's not like tolerating bad gameplay for the sake of a formal argument it's more like enjoying something really, really good and not choosing to have less of a good thing without cause.

Incidentally, striking from these 13, there was a huge variety in results; having all 13 as starters really did matter, and it wouldn't have worked well like it did if a starter/cp system were used with some arbitrary selection of stages as starters (particularly, Delfino/Skyloft/Wuhu as starters is VERY important to balance the list). Again, I'd like more and plan to push for more going forward, but I think these 13 serve as an excellent "line in the sand". Is there any possible argument that can be raised against any of them?

 

[Ramzy]

100% Legal (13)

Battlefield / Miiverse
Town and City
Pilot Wings
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Smashville
Kongo Jungle 64
Final Destination
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Lylat Cruise

I sincerely hope this sticks. The only one that might be debatable is Kongo because its size, for singles at least. But especially Pilot Wings I hope to be legal, since it would make an interesting, fresh meta. The planes shift a bit more extreme than Lylat which I think is great for forcing a move since someone at a different standing might decide to take advantage. And the red plane with the double wing and "walls" shouldn't be an issue since you can tech off walls.

This is honestly a bit disappointing. I mean the stages that are in are fantastic, but seriously, only one N64 stage? Why? Are the gonna be more as DLC? ...As much as I hate to ask, did Nintendo pull a Capcom?

Edit: 23 new stages, including Big Battlefield, but not including Flat Zone X or Miiverse.

Brawl had 29 new stages.

Melee had 24 new stages.

(Note: None of these lists include vanilla Battlefield or FD)

I'm not saying I'm mad or anything, just a bit disappointed that this is the smallest list of new stages we've had since 64.

But let's be real, especially us. That doesn't matter all too much because we force it down to less than ten anyways. And that's ok, because we can still enjoy the others as Omegas now, which I personally think gives 4's stage score +10 at least. Also more than ever it seems as though this game is fairly split as a fun and competitive game. We already seemingly have the most extensive legal stage list yet as some have reached 13, and Brawl's is 10 with CPs. And rest stages are easily banned, yet amazing and fun for party play.

Smash is, however, on the short list of games the US is decidedly better than Japan at; our way seems to have quite a few advantages and should not be looking to Japan for guidance. I was at a tournament the other day that ran 13 which to me seems like the absolute floor for a reasonable stagelist in this game. Their list was:

Batlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Town & City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill

That list was a bit conservative for my blood; I think there are definitely more good and worthwhile stages in this game than that. Those 13 though were useful in that as I thought about it I realized that was the set of completely unobjectionable stages; there is truly nothing of substance at all that supports a ban of any of those. When talking about stages outside of those 13, I consider many ban positions to have misguided opinions contrary to my own, but when talking within those 13, I have yet to see a pro-ban position I don't consider just objectively wrong since they always seem to be fuzzy "I don't like it" arguments or arguments on the basis of objectively unreasonable positions (like the Wuhu glitch that is super obscure trivia barely affecting two match-ups or Windy Hill being "big" when it's really not). I just don't see how we can get lower than this without banning for the "I don't like it" reason which is not a reason in any real sense, and I can tell you from experience the game plays GREAT on all of these stages so it's not like tolerating bad gameplay for the sake of a formal argument it's more like enjoying something really, really good and not choosing to have less of a good thing without cause.

Incidentally, striking from these 13, there was a huge variety in results; having all 13 as starters really did matter, and it wouldn't have worked well like it did if a starter/cp system were used with some arbitrary selection of stages as starters (particularly, Delfino/Skyloft/Wuhu as starters is VERY important to balance the list). Again, I'd like more and plan to push for more going forward, but I think these 13 serve as an excellent "line in the sand". Is there any possible argument that can be raised against any of them?

I like how you think, I really would love for stages like Delfino, Skyloft, and Wuhu to be more of a thing, because if we as a competitive community can get this far then we are more than capable of having a completely fair and competitive-conscious match on any of them. And for reasons like Ness unable to recover during two points of Skyloft, that will just have to be for a Ness to deal with, such as banning the stage from choice. But for that tourney's list I'd much rather have Pilot Wings over Castle Siege or Duck Hunt (bleh).

 

[Ramzy]

delete accident double post

 

[MegaMissingno]

Those 13 though were useful in that as I thought about it I realized that was the set of completely unobjectionable stages; there is truly nothing of substance at all that supports a ban of any of those. When talking about stages outside of those 13, I consider many ban positions to have misguided opinions contrary to my own, but when talking within those 13, I have yet to see a pro-ban position I don't consider just objectively wrong since they always seem to be fuzzy "I don't like it" arguments or arguments on the basis of objectively unreasonable positions (like the Wuhu glitch that is super obscure trivia barely affecting two match-ups or Windy Hill being "big" when it's really not).

Totally unobjectionable, nothing of substance at all, any disagreements are objectively wrong? Regardless of whether or not you agree with them, you can't deny that there are some complaints to be made:

Delfino: Just look at this silliness and tell me there's nothing I'm allowed to object to.

Kongo Jungle 64: Well, it was banned in Melee for easy camping as some characters can't reach the top very easily. Now that may or may not be a problem again, might as well test it to find out, but it's possible. Just making a note of it. I could see it being unplayable for Little Mac.

Skyloft: Temporary walkoffs and walls. You can argue that temporary makes them fine, and I'm not gonna rehash that whole argument for the dozenth time, but you should at least be able to acknowledge that there is an argument to be had here. Also, 15 seconds per transformation, air and ground, is very fast and sudden, has you moving around too much.

Halberd: Uh, a bigass cannon sniping at you the whole time?

Castle Siege: On the flipside from Skyloft, a walkoff that lasts an entire 40 seconds + load times (does it still load midmatch like in Brawl?). Now that's too long.

Wuhu Island: See Skyloft, plus swimming.

Windy Hill: Weird gravity changes how geometry works. Things are essentially farther apart higher up. This can throw off some combos, followups, and setups. Also, some projectiles don't follow the curvature, like Thoron. Having a stage that changes entire game mechanics and disrupts physics is really bad IMO.

Also, wasn't Pilotwings more or less declared dead after it became clear how easy it was to stall?

 

[Jiggsbomb]

Ok to be clear, I'm the one saying town and city is too big. I have not argued for mushroom Kingdom u to be legal (I wish it could be), or for wuhu to be a starter (I think it's a solid cp).

In terms of starters, I'd say the most diverse yet neutral 5 stage list (not including a created stage) would be Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, and Kongo Jungle 64.

Now KJ64 is fairly big too, but the high platforms do not move, and there are legitimate differences to make it standout against smashville... So nobody has to strike both if they hate the format for some reason.
I can see the argument for duck hunt as the 5th stage, but like I said before, that stage feels really wonky for a starter with the hiding bushes, tree, and the dog popping up to screw you up.
Speaking of wonky, I could actually see people making an argument for halberd as a starter, based on the feeling people had for it in Brawl.

Imo the list should be
Starter :
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat
KJ64

Counterpick:
Town and city
Duck Hunt
Skyloft
Wuhu
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino

Possible CP:
Luigi's Mansion (was legal for years in Brawl)
Norfair (sharking is no longer an issue)
Garden of Hope (I actually don't think it's bad)
Wooly world
PS2
Windy Hill
Orbital Gate
Mushroom Kingdom u (doubtful)
MK8 Mario Circuit (doubtful)
Pilot wings (doubtful)
Kalos (doubtful)
Wrecking Crew (doubtful)
Port Town Aero Drive (are Phantom car hits still a thing?)

I really don't think wooly world and Orbital gate assault will be possible counter picks.

 

[smashmachine]

Smash is, however, on the short list of games the US is decidedly better than Japan at; our way seems to have quite a few advantages and should not be looking to Japan for guidance. I was at a tournament the other day that ran 13 which to me seems like the absolute floor for a reasonable stagelist in this game. Their list was:

Batlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Town & City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill

That list was a bit conservative for my blood; I think there are definitely more good and worthwhile stages in this game than that. Those 13 though were useful in that as I thought about it I realized that was the set of completely unobjectionable stages; there is truly nothing of substance at all that supports a ban of any of those. When talking about stages outside of those 13, I consider many ban positions to have misguided opinions contrary to my own, but when talking within those 13, I have yet to see a pro-ban position I don't consider just objectively wrong since they always seem to be fuzzy "I don't like it" arguments or arguments on the basis of objectively unreasonable positions (like the Wuhu glitch that is super obscure trivia barely affecting two match-ups or Windy Hill being "big" when it's really not). I just don't see how we can get lower than this without banning for the "I don't like it" reason which is not a reason in any real sense, and I can tell you from experience the game plays GREAT on all of these stages so it's not like tolerating bad gameplay for the sake of a formal argument it's more like enjoying something really, really good and not choosing to have less of a good thing without cause.

Incidentally, striking from these 13, there was a huge variety in results; having all 13 as starters really did matter, and it wouldn't have worked well like it did if a starter/cp system were used with some arbitrary selection of stages as starters (particularly, Delfino/Skyloft/Wuhu as starters is VERY important to balance the list). Again, I'd like more and plan to push for more going forward, but I think these 13 serve as an excellent "line in the sand". Is there any possible argument that can be raised against any of them?

yeah no, let's not play the "these guys are better therefore we should do x with stages" game, the last time that happened the stagelist selfdestructed after Apex 2012

especially because there are many other reasons for that

edit: oh yeah this logic tacitly endorses the east coast-created stagelist for Brawl :lol

 

[HierophantGreen]

Totally unobjectionable, nothing of substance at all, any disagreements are objectively wrong? Regardless of whether or not you agree with them, you can't deny that there are some complaints to be made:



Halberd: Uh, a bigass cannon sniping at you the whole time?

Halberd's hazards are easily avoidable and happen infrequently enough for it not to make a big difference. The stage was a widely accepted counterpick for most of Brawl's lifetime.

 

[Pazx]

My proposed stage list for Wii U Singles with reasoning is as follows.

Starters (4):
Battlefield - Often labeled the most neutral stage in the game
Smashville - Often labeled more neutral than Battlefield (either way, neutral and dynamic)
Lylat - Unique platform layout. The tilting seems less dramatic than in Brawl (correct me if I'm wrong) and due to the nature of buffed recoveries across the cast the ledge jankiness is negated. Legal throughout Brawl's lifespan
FD/Omega - Level playing field, counterbalances the starters with platforms

Borderline (pick one, send other to CP) (2):
Delfino - Same as Brawl but with ledge play weakened eg less sharking. Temporary walkoffs/water/walls was not an issue in Brawl
Town and City - Dynamic with platforms, although the high platforms and occasional lack of platforms makes it play like a pseudo FD at times and a dynamic BF at others. Putting T&C in the starters list means that in a matchup that comes down to character who prefers flat stage vs character who prefers stage with platforms the starting stage will usually be SV or T&C, with Delfino over T&C the character who prefers flat stages is at a disadvantage.

Counterpicks (10):
Skyloft - Transformations, none that will kill you. Temporary walkoffs/walls, some transformations move away from center screen and towards horizontal blast zones
Wuhu - Same as Skyloft
Pilotwings - More extreme tilting than Lylat, however neither plane itself is inherently problematic and the transformation is non-threatening
Pokemon Stadium 2 - Deserves the chance it never got in Brawl, transformations are non-threatening and people choose not to play it simply because it's different. May not be popular but popularity is no reason to ban a stage
Halberd - Ledge play weakened from Brawl, always legal in Brawl, stage hazards slow, predictable and unlikely to kill at low percentages (unrelated: one time I got knocked out of a tournament by the lazer when Halberd was my own counterpick)
Duck Hunt - Platforms on either side of stage (tree, bush) and sometimes one in the center. The tree is too high to allow this to be a neutral as some characters can be camped. The ducks may interrupt projectiles similar to ghosts on YS/YIB
Big Battlefield - Big enough to cause problems for characters that are less mobile, but not enough to make matchups unwinnable
Norfair - Unique, hazards cause play to be pushed to either side of the stage, lava may hinder ledgeguarding. Ledge play/sharking weakened from Brawl.
Castle Siege - Temporary walkoffs, other two transformations are arguably neutrals. Statues hinder projectile games
Kongo 64 - Ganon and Mac will probably hate this stage but it seems smaller than Melee and the platforms move higher

Borderline (pick one for CP, send other to banned) (2):
Coliseum - Perma-walkoffs, either flat or with very high platforms however all platforms are easily accessible due to shorter platforms popping up on the stage
Wii Fit Studio - Perma-walkoffs, danger of which partially mitigated by mirror. Platforms similar to Coliseum in that they are not always there, often asymmetrical and although they can be high they are accessible via shorter platforms. This stage offers the lowest platforms in the game.

These stages with permanent walkoffs should be seriously considered in this game due to the lack of walkoff chaingrabs and the fact that they aid characters with poor recoveries. Although they change the way the game is played (no edgeguarding, walkoff camping) they also offer things few or no other stages do particularly in their platform placement.

Banned:
Windy Hill Zone - Combines the worst aspects of Duck Hunt and Mario Galaxy. Also grassy.
Wooly World - Either has walkoffs and runaway play OR is very air based and is the only stage without a main platform for the majority of the time. If the volcano and walkoffs on Wuhu are enough to cause controversy then this stage should be banned outright.
Orbital Gate - Hazards + janky fall through platforms
other jank - jank

Other stages like Skyworld however I am open to being potential counterpicks but I need to do more testing.

With this stagelist there are 5 starters and 12 counterpicks (17 total). Striking can proceed 1-2-1 and I propose 2 stage bans (in a best of 3) as to cover multiple polarising aspects (walkoffs, lack of platforms, high platforms, tilting) without reducing stage diversity. Feedback would be cool.