Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[infomon]

Well, unless you can DI the bthrow so that you go straight up.

Pretty sure that's impossible though. I just don't like guessing, and I don't have the game yet.

 

[<π]

In that situation peach of all people definitely didn't need to approach bowser. She has a better projectile. And free reign to just sit the and pull a stitch. She made a poor choice and it cost her a stock. That's like little Mac approaching someone camping the ledge and then complaining when he gets shield grabed back thrown and gimped. Even little Mac has safe on shield pokes.......

These "need test" posts are silly IMO. You get punished for making bad choices, standing near the ledge/blast zone and expecting someone to leap into your shield is a bad choice.

Edit:
And leaping into someone's shield when they are in that position instead if taking advantage of it is an even more foolish mistake.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

In that situation peach of all people definitely didn't need to approach bowser. She has a better projectile. And free reign to just sit the and pull a stitch. She made a poor choice and it cost her a stock. That's like little Mac approaching someone camping the ledge and then complaining when he gets shield grabed back thrown and gimped. Even little Mac has safe on shield pokes.......

These "need test" posts are silly IMO. You get punished for making bad choices, standing near the ledge/blast zone and expecting someone to leap into your shield is a bad choice.

Edit:
And leaping into someone's shield when they are in that position instead if taking advantage of it is an even more foolish mistake.

With the blast line being that close, you could probably get caught on the farthest part of the main platform and pushed into the blast line by a DTilt or Jab lock into a Smash Attack or FThrow at very low percents, it seems like. Just because lock combos only last for 3 hits before the forced reset doesn't mean that they can't be useful for repositioning, and Balloon Fight has a really small ground platform thanks to that lake thing in the middle. What's more, as long as you're not in knockback as well you don't have to worry about accidentally KOIng yourself if you push the foe over the blast line with a combo, because you will simply wrap around to the other side. Essentially, close blast line + wrap-around walk-off = KOs from damage-racking combos. Whether this is technically a degenerate gameplay style is a different (and probably subjective) question, but it's definitely very different from standard Smash Bros.

That said, ledge camping really does not exist on that stage as the opponent doesn't even have to approach from the side you're waiting for. They can just go around! In fact, they can toss a projectile in your direction, from the other side of the stage, then wrap around and catch you in a pincer movement and walk-off gimp you instead! Plus, any special in which the user moves horizontally that also causes enough shieldstun to prevent you from shield-grabbing can also screw over walk-off camping simply by attacking and wrapping around simultaneously, assuming the wrap-around works the way I think it does (you can die from the walk-off only if you're in hitstun or tumble).

 

[infomon]

Ya that stage is crazy enough that I definitely want to try legit competing on it to see what happens.

I expect it to be broken beyond all reason, but I think we should find out exactly how. It's plausible that high-level players, once they've learned all the quirks, will know how to avoid the bad situations enough that a fair fight (without super low% kills) happens.

It just seems very unlikely.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

With the way Balloon Fight is laid out, it almost seems like a single continuous island except that the developers put a blast line dead-centre instead of at the water on either side. So on a stage like that, I'd almost expect most of the fighting to take place at the left and right sides, using the wrap-around to fight as if that were the centre of the stage. The entire match would likely devolve into entirely super-low-percent kills as everyone basically taunts death by fighting with the blast line right in the centre.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i have an suggestion to try and better analyse the stages.... we should make tournaments with only a single stage available.

these should give us a better base for our decisions and video proof...

 

[Conda]

i have an suggestion to try and better analyse the stages.... we should make tournaments with only a single stage available.

these should give us a better base for our decisions and video proof...

I feel this idea fails to consider what tournaments are, the fact that people operate them, and that its not easy. There are a lot of demands being made of TOs but not ourselves - a sense that others have to do work the way we want them to.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I feel this idea fails to consider what tournaments are, the fact that people operate them, and that its not easy. There are a lot of demands being made of TOs but not ourselves - a sense that others have to do work the way we want them to.

Conda. I think he means online tournaments.

 

[Conda]

Conda. I think he means online tournaments.

Ah that flew over my head haha.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I feel this idea fails to consider what tournaments are, the fact that people operate them, and that its not easy. There are a lot of demands being made of TOs but not ourselves - a sense that others have to do work the way we want them to.

i mean as side-events, "for fun" with a serious objective. heck, i didn't even have IRL tournaments in mind for this, as i was thinking of making online "cups". one "cup" per stage.

 

[TheMasterDS]

So long as it's streamed it'd be good. I had a similar suggestion elsewhere that's similar where you do a tournament with only a few (3-7) questionable stages pickable. My take would give interesting data about what stages become the de facto neutral picks in an environment where the standard stages aren't available and might also be a touch more entertaining. Yours would be completely free of the risk players just avoid a certain stage on principle and no data about it is found.

Good ideas, someone should consider doing something along these lines. I imagine gimmick tournaments would just be a bit of fun.

 

[Conda]

So long as it's streamed it'd be good. I had a similar suggestion elsewhere that's similar where you do a tournament with only a few (3-7) questionable stages pickable. My take would give interesting data about what stages become the de facto neutral picks in an environment where the standard stages aren't available and might also be a touch more entertaining. Yours would be completely free of the risk players just avoid a certain stage on principle and no data about it is found.

Good ideas, someone should consider doing something along these lines. I imagine gimmick tournaments would just be a bit of fun.

If there's interest I wouldn't mind hosting single-stage test tournament nights. If the data would be useful for the community to use, that would be really rewarding.

 

[guedes the brawler]

If there's interest I wouldn't mind hosting single-stage test tournament nights. If the data would be useful for the community to use, that would be really rewarding.

i think it would! Please, if you decide to do it, send me a PM, for i not only wish to participate but i also want to spread the word in Gamefaqs (as well as a brazilian smash forum_)

It will also help competitive players too, by training your dodging skills in a different way and encouraging adaptation and flexibility.


Though, considering For glory, should a FD cup be done? ... maybe when we have 100% accurate data on the omega stages and can reliably split them in categories ? ... this could be nice to see and prove the impact of the changes, as small as they are.

 

[25%Cotton]

With the way Balloon Fight is laid out, it almost seems like a single continuous island except that the developers put a blast line dead-centre instead of at the water on either side. So on a stage like that, I'd almost expect most of the fighting to take place at the left and right sides, using the wrap-around to fight as if that were the centre of the stage. The entire match would likely devolve into entirely super-low-percent kills as everyone basically taunts death by fighting with the blast line right in the centre.

every time i fight there it's exactly this. the platforms in the middle are too small and the bumper is too close for them to be comfortable enough for fighting. every time i fight here it devolves to someone snatching people from right across the blast zone and taking them out with low-percent kills.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I think online single non-traditional stage cups are probably the best idea I've seen in ages. As long as someone streams them, conclusive proof about fairness is right there with video proof. 10/10 would advertise again.

 

[Boy Jordan]

Even M2K has trouble with Flying Man. Just to further some discussion in this thread.

 

[Noa.]

The player that gets the flying man as an ally gets such a huge advantage over the other player. :S

 

[san.]

Is it random who gets Flying Man? It would be nice to know how much damage he takes before he's gone.

 

[Second Power]

Is it random who gets Flying Man? It would be nice to know how much damage he takes before he's gone.

I'm fairly certain it only takes one hit of any attack. Never seen it take more than that, anyway.

Edit: Misread. Whoever hits him first gets him on their side. Always appears in the same spot. Don't know how many hits he needs to get killed. Think he just gets knocked off like a regular character.

 

[infomon]

So, M2K played poorly against a predictable stage-hazard and lost fair and square. Not sure what the fuss is about.

 

[Piford]

Yeah you could tell that M2K had no idea that it was coming and couldn't figure out how to approach it.

 

[Unbounded]

Actually, that vid tells me that Flying man is even more predictable than I anticipated.

Also, he apparently can't see you if you're between a platform and him obscuring his view.

On top of that, Flying man appears to only have a very limited number of attacks. I count what appears to be two attacks, and they occur in what seems to be a cycle with set intervals. As long as he has a player targeted, he seems to go in a cycle starting with the flying press, followed by the flip kick what seems to be two seconds later. Only a few things seem to mess with this cycle.

1: Targeting. If the flying man isn't targeting anyone, the moment he sees someone he'll reset back to the flying press.

2: Distance. You can see around 0:32 that when flying man does his press, he takes about four seconds to do his next move, his flip kick. I'm assuming this is because Sonic was too far away to be hit by the flip kick, So flying man had the attack 'readied' after two seconds, and the attack activated once Sonic got within range.

This is after 10 minutes of analyzing a two minute video. I'm sure after one of us gets our hands on the game we can do a complete and total breakdown of this hazard, honestly.

 

[Noa.]

Handling the Flying Man by itself is probably not difficult by itself but playing against the flying man and your opponent at the same time seems incredibly difficult. If you have to spend a significant amount of your time dodging and reacting to the flying man that makes you so much more predictable and easier to read to your opponent. It's still a bit early to tell how much of an advantage it gives to your opponent, but it looks pretty substantial to me.

There are questions I have about the Flying Man spawning. Does he always spawn in the same spot? Does it only take one hit to get him on your side or does the hit have to do X amount percent? Can you activate him with projectiles? When does he first appear and is it always consistent or random? How easy is it to knock him out? And how long until he respawns?

I haven't seen enough footage of the stage to comment definitively on it's legality.

But it looks bannable to me.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Handling the Flying Man by itself is probably not difficult by itself but playing against the flying man and your opponent at the same time seems incredibly difficult. If you have to spend a significant amount of your time dodging and reacting to the flying man that makes you so much more predictable and easier to read to your opponent. It's still a bit early to tell how much of an advantage it gives to your opponent, but it looks pretty substantial to me.

There are questions I have about the Flying Man spawning. Does he always spawn in the same spot? Does it only take one hit to get him on your side or does the hit have to do X amount percent? Can you activate him with projectiles? When does he first appear and is it always consistent or random? How easy is it to knock him out? And how long until he respawns?

I haven't seen enough footage of the stage to comment definitively on it's legality.

But it looks bannable to me.

Flying Man always comes out of the house on the upper right platform, and becomes allied with the first player to touch him. (Watch the video at 0.25x speed, the P1 indicator lights up before Fox starts his jab.) No idea about his HP, any pattern behind his spawn frequency, or anything like that.

It's worth noting that in Earthbound, each successive Flying Man was weaker than the one previously. Although I doubt this would carry over to Smash, it would add another dimension to the hazard if so. (Again, it's unlikely this is the case.)

 

[UltiMario]

So, M2K played poorly against a predictable stage-hazard and lost fair and square. Not sure what the fuss is about.

Yeah you could tell that M2K had no idea that it was coming and couldn't figure out how to approach it.

I've tried to skim this thread to get it, but I can't. Po's Law is pretty strong right here. Are these serious or sarcastic comments ?_?

 

[Piford]

Serious, you saw he was like "I'll just camp down here." I'm not saying that if M2K new it was coming and its patterns that he would perform better, buts its a possibility.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Something just came to my mind. How strong are the wind boxes of certain moves?

Say someone stands on the edge of a walk off for camping? How long would it take to push an opponent to death while standing or moving? How effective would using a wind move be to disrupt their camping?

 

[Unbounded]

Something just came to my mind. How strong are the wind boxes of certain moves?

Say someone stands on the edge of a walk off for camping? How long would it take to push an opponent to death while standing or moving? How effective would using a wind move be to disrupt their camping?

If you're Donkey Kong with the tornado punch walk off camping should be impossible.

 

[TheMasterDS]

If you're Donkey Kong with the tornado punch walk off camping should be impossible.

New meta.

 

[Tybis]

The stage was banned in Brawl for both walkoffs and sharking, but sharking as a tactic is much worse in this game when characters can more freely attack below this stage. You can't abuse ledge invincibility in this game.

Actually, you don't even need to be offstage to shark on Distant Planet. If I understand correctly, then the area just below the left side of the vine is a little problematic.

If one camps there, then they're protected by the above solid platform and potentially by the slope on their left side, and it'd be difficult to not make an obvious approach from the right side. Perhaps the pellets/waterfall could get the camper out... but then again I think they could just sit on the ledge down there when there's water.

This is mostly speculation though. I haven't seen strong evidence supporting this from either Brawl or Smash 4 yet.

The bulborb doesn't attempt to eat someone unless you touch it during the phase where it has its mouth open. Any character can make use of this and it's easy to avoid.

Assuming the Bulborb mechanics stayed basically the same from Brawl, then the Bulborb can also instantly snatch you if you stay on his head for a few seconds.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Actually, you don't even need to be offstage to shark on Distant Planet. If I understand correctly, then the area just below the left side of the vine is a little problematic.

If one camps there, then they're protected by the above solid platform and potentially by the slope on their left side, and it'd be difficult to not make an obvious approach from the right side.

This is all just speculation though. I haven't seen strong evidence supporting these from either Brawl or Smash 4 yet.

So wait, my question is, if they just stand there, won't the water eventually push them off?

 

[Piford]

Can't they just run from the other side and hit them?

 

[san.]

Actually, you don't even need to be offstage to shark on Distant Planet. If I understand correctly, then the area just below the left side of the vine is a little problematic.

If one camps there, then they're protected by the above solid platform and potentially by the slope on their left side, and it'd be difficult to not make an obvious approach from the right side. Perhaps the pellets/waterfall could get the camper out... but then again I think they could just sit on the ledge down there when there's water.

This is mostly speculation though. I haven't seen strong evidence supporting this from either Brawl or Smash 4 yet.


Assuming the Bulborb mechanics stayed basically the same from Brawl, then the Bulborb can also instantly snatch you if you stay on his head for a few seconds.

They cannot sit on the ledge because they lose invincibility.

The bulborb is quite safe in most cases. In Brawl, the bulborb either yawns or opens its mouth. You can stand on its nose safely during both of those (and while it's backing away/moving up, of course). If you are on the bulborb while it's just standing there, after ~2-3 seconds, its eyes look up towards you, leaving you a few more seconds before he eats you. Outside of DK cargo throw into the open mouth, I don't really see anything particularly dangerous with the bulborb.

Characters with good range have no problems attacking characters in the camping spot. In Brawl, I was able to hit Mario with Ike's dair, for instance, and range is pretty good for most characters in Smash 4. The stage gives you projectiles to toss at them camping down there. Few character projectiles can effectively hit above, and if they hit someone, they can tech on the hill. It's a decent camping spot, but not bannable in the slightest.

 

[Tybis]

So wait, my question is, if they just stand there, won't the water eventually push them off?

(Just edited my post including that actually.)

Yeah it would. But I guess then they could hang on to the ledge there and go from camping to stalling? In this game though, the ledge-trump mechanic could potentially make that less of a problem.

Can't they just run from the other side and hit them?

They could, but then they run the risk of being edgeguarded or spiked I think.

Outside of DK cargo throw into the open mouth, I don't really see anything particularly dangerous with the bulborb.

I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. Whenever I tried scoring Bulborb kills, my opponent would most likely tech the roof of its mouth rather than be eaten.

It's a decent camping spot, but not bannable in the slightest.

I haven't seen anything overly broken with the stage yet, but then again I don't ever see anyone play on it. : /

 

[Conda]

I'm finding the discussion in this thread to be more interesting and thoughtful than some of the others regarding stages. Keep going guys

I think the problem with the Pikmin stage is the same as in Brawl, which is it's an obstructive stage. Certain parts of the stage become inaccessible or dangerous in ways that doesn't really encourage much from players other than "don't be here, go to the main platform." The stage begins feeling like a basic tiny stage with gimmicks on both sides that offer nothing of interest to competitive players. They're not huge hazards, but annoying and not really all that fun. But that's just my take.

Maybe it should be legal. I just feel it'd cause sighs of annoyance for viewers and players when its picked

 

[Leonyx]

I'm finding the discussion in this thread to be more interesting and thoughtful than some of the others regarding stages. Keep going guys

I think the problem with the Pikmin stage is the same as in Brawl, which is it's an obstructive stage. Certain parts of the stage become inaccessible or dangerous in ways that doesn't really encourage much from players other than "don't be here, go to the main platform." The stage begins feeling like a basic tiny stage with gimmicks on both sides that offer nothing of interest to competitive players. They're not huge hazards, but annoying and not really all that fun. But that's just my take.

Maybe it should be legal. I just feel it'd cause sighs of annoyance for viewers and players when its picked

Wouldn't the "danger zones" force more aggressive stage dominance if the main platform is so small? I'm sure it would be difficult for some players, but I'm thinking this stage would promote aggression because of how those hazards work.

 

[Conda]

Wouldn't the "danger zones" force more aggressive stage dominance if the main platform is so small? I'm sure it would be difficult for some players, but I'm thinking this stage would promote aggression because of how those hazards work.

Perhaps. It didn't evolve that way in Brawl - it became a campfest, but also I found regular combat wasn't supported due to the nature of the stage. But if it works differently due to how Smash 4 works then that's cool. Excited to test it.

 

[Jaxas]

I'm finding the discussion in this thread to be more interesting and thoughtful than some of the others regarding stages. Keep going guys

I think the problem with the Pikmin stage is the same as in Brawl, which is it's an obstructive stage. Certain parts of the stage become inaccessible or dangerous in ways that doesn't really encourage much from players other than "don't be here, go to the main platform." The stage begins feeling like a basic tiny stage with gimmicks on both sides that offer nothing of interest to competitive players. They're not huge hazards, but annoying and not really all that fun. But that's just my take.

Maybe it should be legal. I just feel it'd cause sighs of annoyance for viewers and players when its picked

I'm pretty sure the reason it was banned was due to that little ledge being basically safe even by planking standards, since there was the overpass as well. I'll look into it, though.

According to the BBR, it was due to Circle Camping, Sharking, and the slope giving more advantages to CGs.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Well now that I've played the game, here's some of my own initial impressions on some of the more questionable stages.

Mute City: The main platforms are actually much bigger than I expected them to be! And the car platforms are around much more often than I thought. Their edges are kind of strange, but beyond that I find this stage quite playable as of now. -Optimistic

Tortimer's Island: A tad bigger than I expected. Could cause stalling shenanigans from faster characters. haven't seen how powerful the exploding fruit is yet. If it isn't too crazy, I can see this being a solid doubles stage if singles don't work out.

Reset Bomb Forest: First form seems fine. Second form has an odd layout, but otherwise doesn't seem terribly difficult to fight on. Walls that can create cave of life can be broken, which could make for some interesting strategy. -Needs more testing, but optimistic for now.

Tomodachi Life: Very unique stage that seems to favor vertical combat. Vertical projectiles will be quite useful since the foreground walls block the view. Easily legal unless circle camping becomes a problem, imo. -optimistic

Arena Ferox: Besides one particular transformation being a massive cave of life, this stage seems like a standard solid transforming stage. I see no reason to ban it as of now. -optimistic

Gaur Plain: Was sort of hoping the under platforms could help against walk-off camping, but initial impressions imply this isn't the case. Even if walk-offs aren't a problem on it, I feel the layout of the stage is just really freaking weird that there's probably something else busted about it. -Needs more testing, but very pessimistic as of now.

Rainbow Road: Very limited playtime here so far, but the one or two times I played it the Shy guys showed up like, once and were super telegraphed. Possible legal material? -Definitely worth testing imo, no opinion so far.

Haven't played enough Brinstar, Jungle Japes, or Distant Planet, but they may also be possibilities.

Again, these are initial impressions from less than a day of playtime. I'm pretty excited to see how this plays out though.

 

[TheMasterDS]

Yeah, I'm happy with Tomodachi Life too. Seems solid and lends itself to a different sort of playstyle that's unique without being nonsensical. Really cool.