Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Don't see how this is a confusing distinction. Most stages are set up for players to put their learned skills to the test, utilizing a variety of platform layouts to show off what they can do. PS2's transformations change the way the characters, the vessels through which the players express themselves, behave, as opposed to simply providing a stage for them to perform on. Whether or not you agree that's an offense worth a ban, surely you can see why so many people don't see that as just an arbitrary difference.

But it is an arbitrary distinction, because numerous other stages also do this. We've even had other stages with lowered gravity before (Pirate Ship, which, unfortunately, had other significant problems). The fact is we're singling one thing stages do out and arbitrarily saying, "This is a problem". Even though it clearly is not broken, clearly is not random, clearly does not lower the skill ceiling or devalue PvP, and clearly can be adapted to. For me, that's the end of the argument. I'm not going to be a stage with those criteria, regardless of how much people think it "violates core gameplay", because at the end of the day, it's not a violation; it's a part of it.

The core gameplay in Smash 4 tournaments involves two characters battling it out in a stock/timed match on a stage.

And if you want to draw an arbitrary line and say, "Oh yeah, no physics changes," that's fine by me. But be honest that it is arbitrary. There's no dividing line between Pokemon Stadium 2 and Smashville. They're both on the stage select screen. You don't have to enter any special mode or input a cheat code or add extra controllers to access them. The better player at Sm4sh will indisputably win. It's not degenerate, broken, or random (non-arbitrary lines we have to draw because without drawing them, the game would be virtually unplayable). Why add some extra arbitrary condition to that? Why make it more complex? And then why apply that inconsistently by not banning stages with grass floors or 2D models?

 

[Piford]

Fortunately Pac-Land has very little in the way of hazards. It's just so much stuff in general - there's the town, the forest, the bridge, the fairy, the cliffs, the weird-*** pool, and the town v2.

...actually when I break it down like that it seems a bit better. I think I'll just split it into sections and go from there.

Pac-Land has some interesting traits when items are turned on, and you could probably steal some images of the omega stages from somewhere.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Pac-Land has some interesting traits when items are turned on, and you could probably steal some images of the omega stages from somewhere.

It sure does and it was really annoying. PAC-LAND, ladies and gentlemen. Next, last, and not least: Final Destination!

I'm not sure if I'll do it tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Linkshot]

I think, in the end, we should locally cater to whatever that community wants their ruleset and "core values" to be. For majors, get the opinion of everybody willing to travel.

 

[Slyshock]

And then why apply that inconsistently by not banning stages with grass floors or 2D models?

Earlier in this thread, there was some discussion of doing just that. Don't have any plans too, though, for a reason that may not be the most objective: no one's brought them up as an issue. PS2's blatant effects are frequently complained about, while Duck Hunt's are so obscure it's likely the majority aren't aware they exist. Grass is a little more disruptive, but legally only a few omegas have it. Ideally stage lists should be more consistent than this, but a degree of perspective is applied to judge the severity of the effect balanced with the collective desire of the scene.

But it is an arbitrary distinction, because numerous other stages also do this. I'm not going to be a stage with those criteria, regardless of how much people think it "violates core gameplay", because at the end of the day, it's not a violation; it's a part of it. And if you want to draw an arbitrary line and say, "Oh yeah, no physics changes," that's fine by me. But be honest that it is arbitrary. The better player at Sm4sh will indisputably win. It's not degenerate, broken, or random (non-arbitrary lines we have to draw because without drawing them, the game would be virtually unplayable). Why add some extra arbitrary condition to that? Why make it more complex?

I think, in the end, we should locally cater to whatever that community wants their ruleset and "core values" to be. For majors, get the opinion of everybody willing to travel.

This bears repeating. Can't prove that PS2 is broken if you accept the physics changes as part of the core game because it otherwise isn't, no caves of life, no walk-offs, no hazards. Gotten a few wins that otherwise would've been losses due to the opponent's unfamiliarity, but that doesn't prove it's too extreme a counterpick in a stage list where it's legal. It comes down to principle, which is a very subjective thing that varies wildly between people. There are even groups out there that like to use items in a competitive setting, which has led to the creation of things like ISP. Wouldn't call being against physics changes any more arbitrary than being against ISP, since both are reasonably balanced (or at least aren't entirely broken) yet are often sacrificed to appease a notion of competitive spirit.

 

[PND]

You're completely right @ Budget Player Cadet_ , if a stage presents something that can be learned, you'd better spend the time learning it or be left behind. This is completely on you as a player to keep up. PS2 changes your physics, spend time learning it and how the changes will interact with your combos and options. Flatzone has hazards, but they show up at predetermined points. Clearly the player with the better stage control will win, spend some time and learn the hazards or pack it up and go home. And Great Cave Offensive clearly rewards the player with strategy, teching skills, and knowledge of how the lava patches interact. If you want to compete, log some time in. All of these hazards are completely manageable. For that matter, if we want to ensure the better player always wins, we should put the game on random level select, because the most knowledgeable player is the better player, clearly this will ensure that the better player comes out on top during the majority of matches because better players know how to adapt.

Also, better players know more matchup and character interactions, so we should make sure that all players have to pick Random. I mean, if you wanted to learn the cast it would just take 20 minutes of practice in Classic mode or some ****, if you're not prepared to put the time into the game, don't expect to walk away with a tourney win. This is on you. And hell, items show up in predetermined spots at mostly predetermined intervals. Learn the spots, learn the timing. Hell, if you can argue that you should keep track of Randall in Melee or Smashville's platform this is clearly the same transferable skill. Learn the timing, scrub. And if you're standing near a spawn point during the interval that an item might spawn, DON'T THROW OUT MOVES. Better players know this, it might be a bomb or a capsule or some ****. Just wait. The players with better item knowledge will win because they practice. That's the key. Items need to be on very high to make sure the better player gets the most opportunities to adapt.

And while we're at it, the whole stock format completely favours certain characters over others. Characters with reliable kill moves have a clear advantage, and that skews the meta. If someone with a suicide move gets ahead it stocks, that can lead to degenerate gameplay. We want Smash to be a game of skill. That's why we need Coin Matches. Better players will learn how their moves interact with coin trajectories to be able to maximize their stage control. With all the different stages we'll be using, we'll be rewarding game knowledge and time invested to the fullest extent.

Sakurai put these options in Smash, that's the core value of the game. If you don't agree with this, you're a scrub who arbitrarily bans things because it doesn't fit your definition of competition. Sakurai doesn't cater to you. The scene doesn't cater to you. You want to play this game? Put on items. Play coin matches on random stages with random characters and adapt. That is the ONLY way we can ensure the better player wins.

 

[Dagon97]

@ PND Flatzone even if the hazards of the stage come up at predetermined points you can expect all 1000 competitors at EVO 2015 to memorize hazards, their properties, how to avoid them and how to optimally take advantage of them in every possible scenario. It is not realistic. It is not a good way to tell your competitors "pack it up or go home". This will decrease the value of competitive smash and send the smash community back into the "dark ages". The Great Cave Offensive is not a rewarding stage for competition because the opponents can choose to get the percentage lead and run away. The players should have the right to choose random if they desire but also choose their own character and color palette. It would not take 20 minutes in Classic Mode or anything of the sort to learn the cast and all of their match ups and the intricacies of each match up. Items are luck based and do not involve the skills that prove who is the better smasher at that particular point in time. (That is explained by the Documentary). Smashville's platform is visible and isn't luck based. Randyll was ONE time based factor. It is fine to learn one time based factor with one consistent outcome instead of learning numerous time based factors with a random outcome. Items are not opportunities to adapt but a factor of randomness therefore going against the purpose of a smash tournament of a competitive level. Each character has a different meta game that has counters in each match up or situation in comparison to other meta games. Coin Matches do not uphold the object of winning the game. Winning the game involves a character leaving the box that is the stage and loses a life or stock. Winning a game does not involve counting the money you can take from your opponent whilst defending your own. Look at the other fighting games at EVO. Do any of them have numerous random based factors or have stealing properties? No, you don't. Sakurai put these OPTIONS in the game for us to have fun with and not use at a competitive level or standardized level at that.

 

[PND]

I'm not sure you got the point of my post.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm not sure you got the point of my post.

I get the point of your post, it's just phenomenally poorly thought out and ignores any semblance of nuance or understanding.

To understand the problem with comparing PS2 to, say, Great Cave Offensive, picture what "optimal gameplay" looks like on each. The former is your typical smash environment - two players fighting each other with some minor hazards and variants. The latter involves one player hitting the opponent once and then running. If you can't see some important differences there, then you clearly have not played on either stage, or played Smash Bros very much at all.

As for the rest, well, there's countless flaws in your bizarre attempt to strawman the reasoning of people like me. Items can be turned on or turned off; there are non-trivial reasons that we keep them off, predominately due to how random they are. The choice of stock vs. time or coin has non-trivial reasons attached to them as well (coin mode is exceedingly random and makes for a lousy spectator sport; time mode forces one-sided matches to go on far longer than necessary; probably more), but at the end of the day even if there wasn't, the choice is arbitrary. As arbitrary as 2 vs 3 stocks and 8 vs 9 minutes.

Now, if the point of your post was to tear down an abysmally ill-constructed straw man, then by all means, be my guest. It might be the dumbest post I've read in quite a while, but go right ahead. My point is that I don't ban things without good reason. There are damn good reasons to ban items, Great Cave Offensive, and Flat Zone.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's done. Final Destination has a thread, with bonus information on Omega forms, and with that there is now a stage research topic for every stage in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. I'm not sure I want to bother with the 3DS stages...

Special thanks to @ Piford and @SmashCapps who chipped in along the way and took it upon themselves to make a few of the topics for me.

Come to think of it, does this make me the official stage guru now or something? That'd be sweet.

 

[Locke 06]

Once Miiverse drops, I'll be expecting a sassy article on it.

#ParanoidDrone4OfficialStageGuru

 

[Piford]

It's done. Final Destination has a thread, with bonus information on Omega forms, and with that there is now a stage research topic for every stage in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. I'm not sure I want to bother with the 3DS stages...

Special thanks to @ Piford and @SmashCapps who chipped in along the way and took it upon themselves to make a few of the topics for me.

Come to think of it, does this make me the official stage guru now or something? That'd be sweet.

I only did like 1 stage, you deserve like all the thanks.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

And now I'm a hashtag. My life is complete.

 

[Locke 06]

And now I'm a hashtag. My life is complete.

Updated signature ^_^
That said, I'm surprised you didn't add in the white background flash on FD.

Also, I don't know how much this is actually a thing, but I find Mii Brawler's shotput insanely hard to see with the black background of FD.

Maybe this should be in the FD thread... meh.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Updated signature ^_^
That said, I'm surprised you didn't add in the white background flash on FD.

Also, I don't know how much this is actually a thing, but I find Mii Brawler's shotput insanely hard to see with the black background of FD.

Maybe this should be in the FD thread... meh.

I honestly forgot, mostly because I then spent the next hour getting screenshots of each Omega stage and the white flash never bothered me personally.

 

[ItsBearTime]

You're completely right @ Budget Player Cadet_ , if a stage presents something that can be learned, you'd better spend the time learning it or be left behind. This is completely on you as a player to keep up. PS2 changes your physics, spend time learning it and how the changes will interact with your combos and options. Flatzone has hazards, but they show up at predetermined points. Clearly the player with the better stage control will win, spend some time and learn the hazards or pack it up and go home. And Great Cave Offensive clearly rewards the player with strategy, teching skills, and knowledge of how the lava patches interact. If you want to compete, log some time in. All of these hazards are completely manageable. For that matter, if we want to ensure the better player always wins, we should put the game on random level select, because the most knowledgeable player is the better player, clearly this will ensure that the better player comes out on top during the majority of matches because better players know how to adapt.

Also, better players know more matchup and character interactions, so we should make sure that all players have to pick Random. I mean, if you wanted to learn the cast it would just take 20 minutes of practice in Classic mode or some ****, if you're not prepared to put the time into the game, don't expect to walk away with a tourney win. This is on you. And hell, items show up in predetermined spots at mostly predetermined intervals. Learn the spots, learn the timing. Hell, if you can argue that you should keep track of Randall in Melee or Smashville's platform this is clearly the same transferable skill. Learn the timing, scrub. And if you're standing near a spawn point during the interval that an item might spawn, DON'T THROW OUT MOVES. Better players know this, it might be a bomb or a capsule or some ****. Just wait. The players with better item knowledge will win because they practice. That's the key. Items need to be on very high to make sure the better player gets the most opportunities to adapt.

And while we're at it, the whole stock format completely favours certain characters over others. Characters with reliable kill moves have a clear advantage, and that skews the meta. If someone with a suicide move gets ahead it stocks, that can lead to degenerate gameplay. We want Smash to be a game of skill. That's why we need Coin Matches. Better players will learn how their moves interact with coin trajectories to be able to maximize their stage control. With all the different stages we'll be using, we'll be rewarding game knowledge and time invested to the fullest extent.

Sakurai put these options in Smash, that's the core value of the game. If you don't agree with this, you're a scrub who arbitrarily bans things because it doesn't fit your definition of competition. Sakurai doesn't cater to you. The scene doesn't cater to you. You want to play this game? Put on items. Play coin matches on random stages with random characters and adapt. That is the ONLY way we can ensure the better player wins.

Oh hey, a slippery-slope fallacy. I can do that too, just watch:

"I agree that PS2 is an uncompetitive stage. It forces the player to learn how to adapt to things which they, quite frankly, shouldn't have to. This emphasis on stage knowledge in unhealthy for a competitive environment, and as such, the stage should be banned. On the same note, the moving stages should also be banned. You know, Wuhu Island, Skyloft, Delfino Plaza? These stages have a large array of layouts, many of which are awful for competitive play. Some of these layouts contain unsavory stage elements, like water, or even worse, walk-offs. Temporary ones, yes, but walk-offs just the same. Halberd is another obvious contender to be banned - the hazards are intrusive and have too large an impact, and the low ceiling makes the Hoo-Hah even more OP. I mean, you don't really want to buff Diddy more, do you? Then there's Duck Hunt, another stage a find to be uncompetitive. This stage is littered with questionable elements - the ducks mess with combos, as does the dog, and the 2-D gimmick messes with the hitboxes of some moves. DH just has too much going against it to be safely legal.

I'd also like to bring Town and City to the table. While certainly less obstructive than the rest of its transitioning kin, it still falls into unfair territory with regards to its moving platforms. Imagine if, during a grand finals match, one player gets carried high up due to standing on one of the platforms during the stage transition, and that sets them up perfectly for Diddy Kong to U-Air them for the victory. The stage set up that kill, while Diddy didn't have to do anything! Not to mention the randomly spawning balloons, which could potentially mess with projectiles. Imagine if you were playing Ness, and you died because PK Thunder got caught on a balloon. That wouldn't feel fair, now would it? Speaking of the balloon, Smashville should also be banned. Not just for the balloon, but also for the platform, which could potentially save players from scenarios where they certainly would have died otherwise, or artificially extend chains due to the players being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. While the players could be tasked with keeping track of the platform's movement, this detracts from a purely skill-based competition between characters. And, finally, Battlefield and Final Destination should also be banned - the former for being skewed too heavily towards characters who like the platforms, and the latter for being too skewed towards characters who like the lack of platforms. Such polarization is unhealthy for a truly competitive environment.

Clearly, all stages are uncompetitive, volatile messes which are just begging to be banned. The only truly competitive Smash Bros. environment is arguing on forums about what the hell a 'competitive environment' actually means."

So yeah, the slippery-slope argument is really dumb. The way the argument works is basically by equating something with a bunch of unpopular things, and judging them all as a whole (in your post, equating PS2, Flat Zone X, GCO, and a bunch of rules; in mine, equating banning PS2 with banning Delfino, Duck Hunt, T+C, BF, FD, etc.). The reason why this is a fallacy is that it doesn't actually address the matter at hand.

I mean, the basic gist of your post was "Oh, you think Pokemon Stadium 2 should be legal, because you can learn and adapt to the stage? Well you can learn Flat Zone X too, so do you think that should be legal too? Of course not, Flat Zone X has overpowered hazards and permanent walk-offs! You wouldn't want to play on that stage, so why Pokemon Stadium 2?" Uh, 'cause last time I checked, PS2 doesn't have overpowered hazards and permanent walk-offs. Next time, try actually arguing against the stage you want to argue against.

 

[Krysco]

Completely unrelated to the discussion at hand but I went and recorded a bunch of footage of me jumping into a floating island and here it is:

Most (I'd like to say all but knowing my luck there's probably a few I missed) hazards are shown along with showing things that aren't hazards and there's a few other odd things in there like getting in the Statue of the Goddess.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Random predictive question here... But I think we need to have a plan of some sort...

What happens to the legal stage list if all the legals from 3ds port over eventually?

The biggest impact would be yoshis, as it's a neutralish and we already have 5,so we'll need to consider addition, replacement, or just having it as a CP.

Prism tower is also an interesting CP... just something to consider

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Random predictive question here... But I think we need to have a plan of some sort...

What happens to the legal stage list if all the legals from 3ds port over eventually?

The biggest impact would be yoshis, as it's a neutralish and we already have 5,so we'll need to consider addition, replacement, or just having it as a CP.

Prism tower is also an interesting CP... just something to consider

That's something to worry about if/when it actually happens and not a moment sooner.

 

[webbedspace]

Honestly if they ported over Prism Tower to Wii U, the odds are good they'd make Yveltal fly in and blow all the fighters straight to Hell every 2 loops.

 

[Pazx]

Surely Ferox is a better stage than Prism Tower?

 

[webbedspace]

One of its transformations has caves of life, so, nah.

 

[Jacob29]

I've been put into a position of having to make a Smash 4 ruleset and most of the lists, and even the OP seem to be fairly outdated.

So, with Apex and Evo having a fairly restrictive stage list I was wondering what you guys thought were stages that aren't currently legal in most places but should be.

Earlier in the thread I've seen Skyloft and Mario Circuit, to name a few, be mentioned as should be legal's. Do those people still think the same?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've been put into a position of having to make a Smash 4 ruleset and most of the lists, and even the OP seem to be fairly outdated.

So, with Apex and Evo having a fairly restrictive stage list I was wondering what you guys thought were stages that aren't currently legal in most places but should be.

Earlier in the thread I've seen Skyloft and Mario Circuit, to name a few, be mentioned as should be legal's. Do those people still think the same?

Currently there's 14 stages that (I think) are pretty clearly competitive-quality.

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Delfino Plaza
• Kongo Jungle 64
• Halberd
• Lylat Cruise
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Castle Siege
• Town & City
• Smashville
• Duck Hunt
• Wuhu Island
• Windy Hill Zone

Of these, Windy Hill Zone is the most contested due to the springs that can appear without warning and kill players if they bounce off them at the wrong angle, so it's commonly cut for a convenient 13. (13 being an excellent number for Full List Stage Striking since it satisfies y = 4x + 1.) Pokemon Stadium 2 is another hotly contested stage but I think it's still looked upon a bit more favorably than WHZ.

Other stages that aren't really accepted but I, at least, wouldn't mind fighting on:

• Mushroom Kingdom U
• Mario Circuit
• Luigi's Mansion
• Norfair
• Woolly World
• Orbital Gate Assault
• Kalos Pokemon League
• Gamer
• Garden of Hope

At this point I should point out that I'm decidedly a stage liberal and give remarkably few ****s about most stage hazards. It's doubtful you'd be able to convince anyone that the stages in this second list should be added. Maybe one or two people at most if they're liberal like me.

EDIT: There are also three walkoff stages with otherwise nothing really wrong with them. It's just that walkoffs are a volatile position so stages where they're a permanent feature end up banned.

• Mario Galaxy
• Coliseum
• Wii Fit Studio

 

[Firefoxx]

Yeah the stages that get the most push back that should be no brainer legal are PS2, Skyloft and Wuhu Island. PS2 is fine, its simply the 13th best stage which is a good number as Drone pointed out. But Skyloft and Wuhu not being universally legal is a damn travesty. They are both fantastic traveling stages with overall better layouts than Delfino, with the added bonus of having a reasonable upper blast zone while the layouts change.

(Also they both have great music. I didn't even know I needed Stylesavvy: Trendsetters songs in my life but then I played a few matches on Wuhu Island)

 

[Slyshock]

I've been put into a position of having to make a Smash 4 ruleset and most of the lists, and even the OP seem to be fairly outdated.

So, with Apex and Evo having a fairly restrictive stage list I was wondering what you guys thought were stages that aren't currently legal in most places but should be.

Wuhu Island, Skyloft, and Kongo Jungle 64 are all popular picks after the common 9. You might also see Pokémon Stadium 2 and Windy Hill Zone legal in some places, and Orbital Gate Assault pops up every now and then. That being said, you should definitely talk to your players about what stages they would be okay with. No matter how perfect you think a stage list is, it's a failure if no one wants to use it.

Another factor to consider is how you want to separate the starters and counterpicks. Personally would recommend either 5 or 9 starters and the rest counterpicks, but again, it would be best to get the opinions of your players. Play a few test games with some of them using different amounts of starters to get a feel for what works and what is just too cumbersome.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Windy Hill Zone over Mario Circuit? Really? I don't get that at all. WHZ has random OHKO hazards that show up and gimp you; Mario Circuit has a ceiling for a while.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Anyone give me a tldr of how the Full Stage List Striking method works? I'm a bit confused on how stages for game 1 are chosen and how it follows for gane 2.

Any other methods you all are using besides the starter cp system in place?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Anyone give me a tldr of how the Full Stage List Striking method works? I'm a bit confused on how stages for game 1 are chosen and how it follows for gane 2.

Any other methods you all are using besides the starter cp system in place?

With full list striking, you need an odd number of stages. Conveniently, there are 13 that are pretty much unquestionably acceptable.

It's really straightforward: think of your entire stagelist as your starterlist, then go from there. Typically, it's struck 1-[2-]1; so for 9 stages you'd strike 1-2-2-2-1, for 11 1-2-2-2-2-1, and for 13 1-2-2-2-2-2-1.

For games 2 and 3, you just use the typical ban-counterpick setup as you know it from standard play.

 

[J_the_Man]

Windy Hill Zone over Mario Circuit? Really? I don't get that at all. WHZ has random OHKO hazards that show up and gimp you; Mario Circuit has a ceiling for a while.

The ceiling is high enough that it doesn't invalidate horizontal kills, though. At least, I haven't had that problem.

 

[Pazx]

I've been put into a position of having to make a Smash 4 ruleset and most of the lists, and even the OP seem to be fairly outdated.

So, with Apex and Evo having a fairly restrictive stage list I was wondering what you guys thought were stages that aren't currently legal in most places but should be.

Earlier in the thread I've seen Skyloft and Mario Circuit, to name a few, be mentioned as should be legal's. Do those people still think the same?

Since you've been given a stage liberal's perspective, here's my more conservative list.

Spoiler

Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Duck Hunt
Kongo Jungle
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2 (I played on this in my last tournament, no complaints at all)

I'm also a fan of Norfair but I'm not entirely sure you'd have much luck convincing your scene (or my scene) to start using it competitively. The next stages I'd consider adding are Norfair, Woolly World, Mario Circuit (although I personally really dislike the latter and I don't think competitive scenes will have a warm reception for any of them. That said, they are valid competitive stages, just very disliked).

 

[smashbro29]

Since you've been given a stage liberal's perspective, here's my more conservative list.

Spoiler

Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Castle Siege
Duck Hunt
Kongo Jungle
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2 (I played on this in my last tournament, no complaints at all)

I'm also a fan of Norfair but I'm not entirely sure you'd have much luck convincing your scene (or my scene) to start using it competitively. The next stages I'd consider adding are Norfair, Woolly World, Mario Circuit (although I personally really dislike the latter and I don't think competitive scenes will have a warm reception for any of them. That said, they are valid competitive stages, just very disliked).

Norfair is really tough on slower characters and the punishment for being hit by the hazards is huge.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Norfair is really tough on slower characters and the punishment for being hit by the hazards is huge.

First point sounds like counterpick material. Second point is more valid but the only hazard that's sometimes hard to see coming are the lava jets. The rest are either super duper slow (lava wall), come and goes semi-predictably (lava floor), or can be shielded outright (bigass lava wave).

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Norfair is actually considerable? I just kind of figured any stage that could kill you by itself was a big no-no. Although I suppose the lava's knockback is pretty mediocre. You also have to remember the camping opportunities when the big lava wall comes into play for a bit. I don't think I would mind too much to play on it, but honestly, I'm not sure how you'd convince the community to legalize it.

Anyway, what about Garden of Hope? I always thought that was a pretty viable stage. Of course, you have a giant crab on a bender, but that is easily jumped over. Otherwise, I think it'd be a really interesting competitive stage.

I really dislike the idea for Mario Circuit, however. You can do some really cheap juggling with the ceilings and the walls that has no place in competitive Smash.

 

[Locke 06]

First point sounds like counterpick material. Second point is more valid but the only hazard that's sometimes hard to see coming are the lava jets. The rest are either super duper slow (lava wall), come and goes semi-predictably (lava floor), or can be shielded outright (bigass lava wave).

Just played a competitive game on Norfair. The lava wall creates a pretty powerful camping spot on the bottom platform. It is temporary, but worth mentioning. I really enjoy it as a competitive stage, as the multiple ledges make for interesting recovery games. The lack of a main platform is the stage's most interesting feature. (I love it)

The lava itself can be quite polarizing though. It's a non-issue in neutral, but with low shields or getting combo'd into it can be dangerous.

 

[Tybis]

Since we're on the topic of everyone's favorite lava stage;
Is Norfair improved by its hazards, or harmed, competitively speaking? Would degenerate strategies become stronger if there were no damaging hazards? Do its hazards generally discourage degenerate strategies, or help them?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Since we're on the topic of everyone's favorite lava stage;
Is Norfair improved by its hazards, or harmed, competitively speaking? Would degenerate strategies become stronger if there were no damaging hazards? Do its hazards generally discourage degenerate strategies, or help them?

In Brawl the abundant ledges would have made ledgestalling hilariously easy, I wager. Luckily for us this isn't Brawl and you can't ledgestall as easily. The many ledges may also make recovery a bit easier, or at least provide more options.

Pikachu is the only character I've heard pegged as maybe problematic on Norfair due to Quick Attack shenanigans and the lava would cut off some of his options, which in this specific context sounds like a good thing. (Maybe Greninja could do something similar? Hydro Pump works sort of the same.) The lava wall creating a defensive position on the bottom platform as @ Locke 06 says is also a thing but again, it's temporary and lasts for far less time than any transformation so I don't think it's a massive issue.

The bigass lava wave from the background is disruptive but not dangerous by itself since it can be easily shielded, spotdodged, countered (if your character has a counter), super armored, etc. (Actually, now I kind of want to see Airbender DK muscle through it while still scoring a hit...) If you do get hit by it, either you messed up or the opponent frametrapped you. The former isn't something we should cater to and the latter should be rewarded given they only had a few seconds to plan it out in the first place.

That leaves the idea of physically hitting your opponent into the lava, which I would judge as a positive because creativity but others may see as a negative because purity. (Or something.)

 

[Locke 06]

Characters with good ledge cancels would adore that stage. Another striking feature of the stage that is incredibly polarizing is lava wall + risen lava floor. This transformation temporarily leaves only 1 small platform for fighters to stand on allowing for a really intense 5 seconds or so.

Who hates the stage other than the obligatory little Mac hates stages joke?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Characters with good ledge cancels would adore that stage. Another striking feature of the stage that is incredibly polarizing is lava wall + risen lava floor. This transformation temporarily leaves only 1 small platform for fighters to stand on allowing for a really intense 5 seconds or so.

Who hates the stage other than the obligatory little Mac hates stages joke?

Forgot about ledge cancels, you're right. IDK who all can do that sort of thing, other than "anyone with a teleport."

As Rosalina I don't enjoy Norfair since Luma is highly vulnerable to all the lava flying around which makes it sometimes hard to keep it safe. (And if it touches it offstage that's GG, it'll bounce around until it dies.) But the platforms are sized and arranged pretty nicely for her stage control.

 

[COLINBG]

It might seem silly, but have we considered custom stages to be eventually playable in tournaments? Of crouse, not allowing any nobody to bring his own custom stages, but doing it in a professional manner.

Talking seriously about it in a moderated forum thread (or threads, actually), generating solid and well-thought arguments as to what is considered fair and what is not in a stage, and letting experienced players decide what makes the final list seems like a good way to go.

This would let us have more diversity and choices in tournaments. With the legal, official stages, we usually end up seeing the same stages over and over again. Smashville, Battlefield, FD. Occasionally we see Lylat or Duck Hunt. That's about it. Customs stages would let us have more counterpicks that fit different characters playstyle more efficiently. We could have different platfrom settings, and different shapes of stages.

I'm aware it would be harder to implement than custom moves, but if we can get set on a couple of simple, easy to reproduce stages, I think it could be done and would add variety to the game. There's also the argument that the current stage list is fine as it is, but I've seen people complain about the lack of counterpicks/neutrals in the game.

I'm just throwing this idea up. Has it ever been discussed seriously, even if it's just to come to the conclusion that it would not be possible/viable? What do you think about it?