Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm just going to throw out that I'm back fro ma local and noticed something. A lot of players are *really* coming around to Wuhu Island; I played several games on it (having it counterpicked against me!), and people seem to have grown really fond of it. The stage truly does nothing objectionable; I think some people are a bit intimidated by learning a new travel stage, but if you just have it legal a lot and just hold it out there, I think it's nearly inevitable almost every scene would come around to it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm just going to throw out that I'm back fro ma local and noticed something. A lot of players are *really* coming around to Wuhu Island; I played several games on it (having it counterpicked against me!), and people seem to have grown really fond of it. The stage truly does nothing objectionable; I think some people are a bit intimidated by learning a new travel stage, but if you just have it legal a lot and just hold it out there, I think it's nearly inevitable almost every scene would come around to it.

Yeah, I'm with this. I have yet to find anything that is even remotely objectionable. Even in matches where my opponent accidentally SD'd twice (on the segment with the cliff, and again when the platform rose off the cliff), they seemed to acknowledge, "whoops, that was my fault".

 

[Yikarur]

Wuhu Island is probably the best traveling stage. It really does nothing bad and it's different lay outs doesn't seem to give any specific set of attributes a great advantage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wuhu Island is probably the best traveling stage. It really does nothing bad and it's different lay outs doesn't seem to give any specific set of attributes a great advantage.

Well, one set. It has huge horizontal blastzones, which I figure Lucario really loves.

 

[Piford]

Well, one set. It has huge horizontal blastzones, which I figure Lucario really loves.

No it doesn't. The stage is a bit big, but the side blastzones from the ledge and the ceiling are about the same as every other stage. That's only for the traveling section as it's too annoying to measure the landings.

 

[19_]

I'm just going to throw out that I'm back fro ma local and noticed something. A lot of players are *really* coming around to Wuhu Island; I played several games on it (having it counterpicked against me!), and people seem to have grown really fond of it. The stage truly does nothing objectionable; I think some people are a bit intimidated by learning a new travel stage, but if you just have it legal a lot and just hold it out there, I think it's nearly inevitable almost every scene would come around to it.

I hope we see more traveling stages in future smash games because they always seem like the kind of stages that are more likely to be legal. These stages are very dynamic but at the same time are not disruptive enough to feel like your environment is trying to butt in on the match.

To me I feel like the universal stages we have now are ok:

Smashville
BF
FD/omega
T&C
Lylat
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt
Halberd

But I think having two more stages makes the list feel more complete.

Skyloft, Wuhu, KJ64, and Ps2, I think are the best stages to push for.

Wuhu is honestly the best of these likely stages to make the standard due to how little "jank" there is in the first place, the boat is the only polarizing part of the stage honestly.

Skyloft only issue is when a when a part of the scenery can hit you on the traveling platform, but that is it. It would be less of an issue if we knew when and where it happens.

With KJ64, if the issue of barrel camping can be solved then it is legal.

PS2 is honestly banned because it is "janky". Good luck convincing someone that even thought a stage is annoying to play on does not mean it can be legal.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

The more I think about it, the more my ideal stagelist is looking a bit odd compared to the consensus, and by that I mean the stages I want as starters.

Starters:
FD/Omegas
BF/Miiverse
SV
Wuhu
Skyloft

CP:
KJ64
T&C
Lylat
Castle Siege
Mario Circuit 8
Duck Hunt
Delfino
Halberd

Wuhu and Skyloft are ideal neutrals because of their status as benign transforming stages, so no matchup advantage based on the stage lasts beyond the next transformation. Though I like Skyloft a LOT more than Wuhu, Wuhu I feel has some pretty bad transformations, like the bridge and the cliff, so I could see Delfino and Wuhu switching places.

I want Mario Circuit legal because if its interesting mechanics, locking one boundary away with certain transformations. Its a really fun stage to play on. The only problem is the glitch, but I dont really know how to address that.

 

[dav3yb]

No one has ever bothered to clear this up, so here goes again. Does going Ledge>Barrel>Ledge grant invincibility again?

From what little I've experienced with barrels in this game, if you get fired out of one, you are invulnerable for a time and have an active hit box, and you might be in a free fall state unable to act out of it after that ends, which I might be wrong about, but there would be a fair bit of time I think between being fired out of the barrel and being able to get back to the ledge. This is all from knowledge of how it works in the stage builder, so I know the info might not match up

But speaking of that, how viable would using the stage builder be to make more legal stages? Obviously it would be easier if Nintendo allowed you to post/download a stage, but it seems like it's good enough to make some good variety, and there is at least a grid that can be checked against to make sure they're all the same. Just a thought

 

[MrGame&Rock]

From what little I've experienced with barrels in this game, if you get fired out of one, you are invulnerable for a time and have an active hit box, and you might be in a free fall state unable to act out of it after that ends, which I might be wrong about, but there would be a fair bit of time I think between being fired out of the barrel and being able to get back to the ledge. This is all from knowledge of how it works in the stage builder, so I know the info might not match up

But speaking of that, how viable would using the stage builder be to make more legal stages? Obviously it would be easier if Nintendo allowed you to post/download a stage, but it seems like it's good enough to make some good variety, and there is at least a grid that can be checked against to make sure they're all the same. Just a thought

If that's a thing we're going to do, we'll have to make the custom stages using ideas that haven't been implemented in any other stage. Recreating PS2 and other stages from Project M wont cut it, at least for me. For example, one idea I have is to make a walkoff-style stage that benefits characters with **** recoveries but doesn't allow for walkoff camping like we see in the other walkoffs

 

[Linkshot]

Not a reason to ban the stage. We already have rules against stalling, and we could have some tailored specifically to KJ64 in this game. I think KJ64's biggest issue is it's runaway potential, and to me that's a very, very minor issue.

This isn't an enforcable stalling, though. It's not like the Pirate Ship Rudder where you pause when they're under it and call a TO over. People use the barrel for recovery and there's no visual indicator of how long you've been in it already.

 

[SuperDavio]

Duck Hunt is a legal stage, guys.

https://gfycat.com/TintedThriftyIndianjackal

I busted out laughing when this happened (as you can see). How often does the dog actually affect the match like that?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Duck Hunt is a legal stage, guys.

https://gfycat.com/TintedThriftyIndianjackal

I busted out laughing when this happened (as you can see). How often does the dog actually affect the match like that?

IDK about how often it actually has an impact, but the dog comes up whenever the ducks fly away, or if all ducks have been hit it'll come up right after the last one falls. If they all escape, it comes up in the middle, otherwise it comes up at the position the last duck fell at. (It still stays between the tree and the bush though, so if the duck was on the edges it'll just get as close as it can.)

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

The more I think about it, the more my ideal stagelist is looking a bit odd compared to the consensus, and by that I mean the stages I want as starters.

Starters:
FD/Omegas
BF/Miiverse
SV
Wuhu
Skyloft

CP:
KJ64
T&C
Lylat
Castle Siege
Mario Circuit 8
Duck Hunt
Delfino
Halberd

Wuhu and Skyloft are ideal neutrals because of their status as benign transforming stages, so no matchup advantage based on the stage lasts beyond the next transformation. Though I like Skyloft a LOT more than Wuhu, Wuhu I feel has some pretty bad transformations, like the bridge and the cliff, so I could see Delfino and Wuhu switching places.

I want Mario Circuit legal because if its interesting mechanics, locking one boundary away with certain transformations. Its a really fun stage to play on. The only problem is the glitch, but I dont really know how to address that.

I'm actually surprised at how much I enjoy the idea of 2 travel stages as starters. I think that it would create an interesting metagame shift. However, you can get a similar, even more fair result with Full List Striking, and I'm still wanting to push for that.

IDK about how often it actually has an impact, but the dog comes up whenever the ducks fly away, or if all ducks have been hit it'll come up right after the last one falls. If they all escape, it comes up in the middle, otherwise it comes up at the position the last duck fell at. (It still stays between the tree and the bush though, so if the duck was on the edges it'll just get as close as it can.)

Yeah so for that reason, the Dog is 100% predictable. In fact, when the gif started, I was able to tell he'd come up in the middle. However, I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect everyone to track it every time during a real match, and so you do get situations where the dog saves/kills people unexpectantly. I know I've been saved when I didn't deserve to be and won because of it.

It can be very disruptive, and I very much dislike the stage for that reason (putting 2D differences aside for this conversation), yet I don't think it's right to ban it for this reason alone, considering the dog rising is technically predictable. Also, I hate the obscuring grass.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I mean, I played a lot of Duck Hunt as a kid, but I'm never surprised by the dog since the mechanic is exactly the same. I actually would assume the Rosalina player did that on purpose in that gif; it was a good play.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

It's hard to say how intentional it was. It was technically the right move regardless of the dog because Robin would only have got a dash attack in at that distance. Considering the high percents, it was her only way to not have to risk losing a stock. Also, their reactions make me lean towards it being unintended.

Regardless, it didn't exactly change the outcome of the match, right?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I'm actually surprised at how much I enjoy the idea of 2 travel stages as starters. I think that it would create an interesting metagame shift. However, you can get a similar, even more fair result with Full List Striking, and I'm still wanting to push for that.

I get what you're saying, but I worry about the "Smashville" mindset I saw at APEX, where everyone defaulted to SV for game 1 regardless. Going right to Full List Striking might, for a while, do nothing to get rid of that mentality, while having two different stages thrown into the community's face as starters could do a better job at keeping SV from being the uncontested Game 1 stage. Is the Smashville mentality not present at locals that use FLS?

 

[Piford]

It's hard to say how intentional it was. It was technically the right move regardless of the dog because Robin would only have got a dash attack in at that distance. Considering the high percents, it was her only way to not have to risk losing a stock. Also, their reactions make me lean towards it being unintended.

Regardless, it didn't exactly change the outcome of the match, right?

It didn't change it any more than the moving platform in Smashville does. Sure if the dog wasn't there it'd be different, but if the platform is on my side in Smashville and I use it to recover when I normally wouldn't have been able too, the outcome would be different.

 

[digiholic]

PS2 is honestly banned because it is "janky". Good luck convincing someone that even thought a stage is annoying to play on does not mean it can be legal.

Lylat Cruise has been a starter since Brawl. Q.E.D.

 

[19_]

Lylat Cruise has been a starter since Brawl. Q.E.D.

I think the fact that people consider it a counterpick now says a lot about how much harder it is to convince people.

 

[Thinkaman]

The Duck Hunt dog is the new Randall. You always know where he's going to be if you just pay attention.

 

[webbedspace]

You don't even need the ducks visibly flying away to know when it's appearing: it appears in the middle the instant the sky changes from pink to blue. Keep watching the skies!

 

[Virum]

My apologies if this has been covered already, but I would like to chime in about Mushroom Kingdom U and its potential as a competitive stage. Now before you all chime in and say "Nabbit" I've written a piece on Reddit highlighting why I feel the stage could still work despite Nabbit. Check it out here: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2w57vb/mushroom_kingdom_u_analysis_why_i_feel_this/

I'm not sure how much people have actually been experimenting with this stage, though I'd definitely implore that people at least take the time to understand the intricacies of it to better get where I'm coming from. I really like this stage and think it has a lot of the credentials to work well if given the opportunity.

 

[webbedspace]

I keep bringing up this footage because I think it sums up Nabbit quite nicely. Was that Rosalina death completely unpredictable? Should they have have respected Nabbit by walloping him instead of pursuing the Yoshi? Probably, but the punishment for not doing so (getting killed at 25%) seems slightly in excess of even a direct hit from the Halberd laser - and the situation could easily have been different in a way that forced the Rosalina offstage.

I think the Halberd laser is also much better regarded because it can be exploited positively by its target: a player can sometimes control and direct the laser to interfere with an opponent's recovery, approach, etc. The Yoshi, meanwhile, didn't have much of a means to control Nabbit (apart from, say, being to the left of it), and got the advantage by not doing anything - exploiting him in a solely negative fashion. Players, then, have an incentive to leave Nabbit alive as long as possible.

...

Additional questions: what happens if a player smashes Nabbit while a player is in the bag? Does the smash attack hit the trapped opponent, too? Can you solely damage a bagged player, like the Wrecking Crew barrels? (@ParanoidDrone?)

 

[Piford]

My apologies if this has been covered already, but I would like to chime in about Mushroom Kingdom U and its potential as a competitive stage. Now before you all chime in and say "Nabbit" I've written a piece on Reddit highlighting why I feel the stage could still work despite Nabbit. Check it out here: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2w57vb/mushroom_kingdom_u_analysis_why_i_feel_this/

I'm not sure how much people have actually been experimenting with this stage, though I'd definitely implore that people at least take the time to understand the intricacies of it to better get where I'm coming from. I really like this stage and think it has a lot of the credentials to work well if given the opportunity.

It definitely deserves more testing, but there are stages far better than it being banned. Skyloft and Wuhu Island are the major ones, but even stages you think should be legal like Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, and Lylat Cruise are starting to see bans. Lylat Cruise! The starter from brawl is starting to be deemed "not good enough to be legal" by some people. I'd love to see more of it to make sure the ban is justified, but these other stages should take precedent in the "this stage should be legal" thing.

 

[Virum]

I agree on the point of the severity of Nabbit and that's the main thing that keeps me a little sceptical but it's also for that reason why I believe the stage should be further tested within a competitive setting so that people have the chance to adapt the best they can to the mechanics of Nabbit. I feel that beyond Nabbit this stage the stage has more going for it than even a fair few of the current counter picks.

Also if I recall correctly if a player breaks an opponent out of Nabbit's bag the opponent does take the damage from the attack only Nabbit does.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

An additional strike against Mushroom Kingdom U as a stage:

The warning drop that signals an icicle dropping can happen off-camera, making the falling icicle a surprise to both players. If the camera properly zoomed out to show the drop of water, then it would be predictable. But since it doesn't, it can be seen as an uncontrollable random event.

This is different from Duck Hunt where the players might not track the dog's positioning, but they always could. In certain circumstances the icicle drop cannot be foreseen.

@ Linkshot can confirm this stage behavior

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Sad, Mushroom Kingdom U is the stage I know that would have benefitted the most from a "hazards off" switch

 

[Virum]

I think that would be more of an issue if the icicles were a potent hazard like Halberd's cannonballs but they aren't at all. They deal pretty low damage and don't kill until very late.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sad, Mushroom Kingdom U is the stage I know that would have benefitted the most from a "hazards off" switch

Pyrosphere and Wily Castle too would've really needed it.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Pyrosphere and Wily Castle too would've really needed it.

Yeah but they're nothing special even without the hazards. MKU is so much fun to play on that Im genuinely sad its ruined

 

[webbedspace]

I think that would be more of an issue if the icicles were a potent hazard like Halberd's cannonballs but they aren't at all. They deal pretty low damage and don't kill until very late.

They freeze fighters, though, which potentially leaves them open to a free f-smash or up-air. "very late" can easily become not that late at all.

 

[Shaya]

I think Mushroom Kingdom has no reasons to not be in doubles whilst IMO not being too detrimental in singles.
I've been at 130%+ and have been able to mash out of nabbit well before reaching the top of the sky, I don't think it gives the opposing player a huge advantage if it occurs either.

 

[19_]

I think Mushroom Kingdom has no reasons to not be in doubles whilst IMO not being too detrimental in singles.
I've been at 130%+ and have been able to mash out of nabbit well before reaching the top of the sky, I don't think it gives the opposing player a huge advantage if it occurs either.

I would like to mention in some cases Nabbit CAN instant kill you if he grabs you off stage.

That said I would imagine Nabbit is a push over when 2 people are working together to get rid of him. I would imagine he is less of an issue with 4 players I guess, at least on paper.

The urchins always seem to the deal breaker to me though. Even though there is a tell, if you are of stage and at high percent when it happens, your stock is in the hands of rng. Kinda pushing it if you ask me.

 

[J_the_Man]

Just the fact that you have to fight nabbit to prevent him from causing problems is disruptive enough to take away from a competitive match. IMO, I'd like my matches free from having to go out of my way to avoid something that's chasing after me. I mean, it's fine when it's telegraphed ahead of time and generally can't kill you, but Nabbit is puts the game on pause if you want to avoid him.

Also, I've been starting to get victimized by Halberd's claw arm a lot. Does that thing indiscriminately attack anyone without a way to avoid it?

 

[Jaxas]

Just the fact that you have to fight nabbit to prevent him from causing problems is disruptive enough to take away from a competitive match. IMO, I'd like my matches free from having to go out of my way to avoid something that's chasing after me. I mean, it's fine when it's telegraphed ahead of time and generally can't kill you, but Nabbit is puts the game on pause if you want to avoid him.

Also, I've been starting to get victimized by Halberd's claw arm a lot. Does that thing indiscriminately attack anyone without a way to avoid it?

This is actually a good point, and one I've been meaning to bring up:
As far as stage legality in general goes, is there a reason why any stage where the stage randomly selects/targets a player to give advantage/disadvantage/depends-on-how-you-use-it is legal?
I mean I like Halberd a lot, and I really don't see it going anywhere (or rather anywhere were Halberd is currently banned likley has more pressing stage issues), but that technically isn't fair.

Basically my issue is that the stage randomly assigns an advantage/disadvantage with no player input; the Cannon I'm fine with as it isn't targeted but the Laser (generally) gives an advantage to whoever it's targeting and the Claw randomly disadvantages another player. If it had a rhyme or reason to selecting which player it targeted that would fine, but I question this mechanic.

(Note: I don't think Halberd is actually ban-worthy, as it has a small influence, but it is still something that I feel needs discussed. Probably has been back in Brawl and I missed it, but I'd like to hear reasons as this line of thought has been popping up at my locals, especially since it's Diddy's best stage)

 

[Piford]

This is actually a good point, and one I've been meaning to bring up:
As far as stage legality in general goes, is there a reason why any stage where the stage randomly selects/targets a player to give advantage/disadvantage/depends-on-how-you-use-it is legal?
I mean I like Halberd a lot, and I really don't see it going anywhere (or rather anywhere were Halberd is currently banned likley has more pressing stage issues), but that technically isn't fair.

Basically my issue is that the stage randomly assigns an advantage/disadvantage with no player input; the Cannon I'm fine with as it isn't targeted but the Laser (generally) gives an advantage to whoever it's targeting and the Claw randomly disadvantages another player. If it had a rhyme or reason to selecting which player it targeted that would fine, but I question this mechanic.

(Note: I don't think Halberd is actually ban-worthy, as it has a small influence, but it is still something that I feel needs discussed. Probably has been back in Brawl and I missed it, but I'd like to hear reasons as this line of thought has been popping up at my locals, especially since it's Diddy's best stage)

The laser doesn't really give an advantage to either player, and if it does it would be the advantage to whoever has stage control. Both being targeted and having your opponent target can be advantageous if you use it right. If it's on you, you can place it to where you can knock your opponent into it. If it's on your opponent you can pressure him to get hit by it.

The claw is worse, but not as bad. It has huge startup, but generally you can't tell which player is getting hit until it does. This means both players have to air dodge regardless of if it's hitting them. The same strategy applies every time it comes for both players, get your opponent in hitstun when it hits. That way it either continues your combo, or your opponent can't punish your air dodge.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Now I love the possibility of being open to stage obviously, but if things like Skyflot are getting banned this talk of Mushroom Kingdom U is kinda laughable to be honest. It's great to discuss these things but how are you could to cause a huge community shift to legalize the stage even if people agreed it might be playable?

 

[DavemanCozy]

I'm just going to throw out that I'm back fro ma local and noticed something. A lot of players are *really* coming around to Wuhu Island; I played several games on it (having it counterpicked against me!), and people seem to have grown really fond of it. The stage truly does nothing objectionable; I think some people are a bit intimidated by learning a new travel stage, but if you just have it legal a lot and just hold it out there, I think it's nearly inevitable almost every scene would come around to it.

It's a rather large stage, blast zones are pretty far. I really like it though, specially the music. I think it should be legal for sure.
The only part that's a bit janky is the one with the bridge with gaps in between, but honestly, I find that more bearable than Delfino's little islands with the pipe.

In terms of transitioning stages, imo:
Wuhu > Delfino > Skyloft

 

[MrGame&Rock]

It's a rather large stage, blast zones are pretty far. I really like it though, specially the music. I think it should be legal for sure.
The only part that's a bit janky is the one with the bridge with gaps in between, but honestly, I find that more bearable than Delfino's little islands with the pipe.

In terms of transitioning stages, imo:
Wuhu > Delfino > Skyloft

I would actually say Skyloft > Wuhu = Delfino, but thats just me

One thing about the traveling stages my sparring buddy and I noticed: Many, Many times a sudden stage transformation would change the flow of the battle. Usually it would manifest in me trying to recover, failing, but landing on solid ground thanks to a transformation in one of these stages. One time, we were doing Puff vs Ganon, he rested and missed, I went for the Warlock Punish (Skyloft) but a sudden transformation put distance between us. The punish failed. Thoughts? Could this be a legitimate argument against the legality of these stages?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I would actually say Skyloft > Wuhu = Delfino, but thats just me

One thing about the traveling stages my sparring buddy and I noticed: Many, Many times a sudden stage transformation would change the flow of the battle. Usually it would manifest in me trying to recover, failing, but landing on solid ground thanks to a transformation in one of these stages. One time, we were doing Puff vs Ganon, he rested and missed, I went for the Warlock Punish (Skyloft) but a sudden transformation put distance between us. The punish failed. Thoughts? Could this be a legitimate argument against the legality of these stages?

I'd see it exactly the other way around - it's an indication that our obsession with stages that don't change the flow of battle is misguided. The fact is that positional advantage can and often is taken away by the stage moving or changing. The smashville platform saving someone from a gimp. Delfino, Wuhu, and Skyloft shifting. Halberd's claw. The platforms appearing and receding on Town and City. Indeed, stages which don't mess with positional advantage in one way or another are the tiny minority. Stages you should counterpick to when you really appreciate keeping positional advantage and not needing to regain it. They are not the norm, and should not be treated as the ideal.