SSB4: Custom Moves Tourney Legal? Poll & Discuss

[negativesteve]

So considering that most of the custom moves have a weakness for every advantage shouldn't they be legal? I mean melee was unbalanced as balls but we (well at least me) still played the balls out of it.
Whats your take on the badges i would think they are okay too since
power and speed decreases defense.
Also should mii fighters be allowed?

 

[Utena]

i think custom moves should be banned until we have a semblance of tiers, at which point certain custom moves should become tournament standard in order to balance the roster.

 

[Fortanono]

i think custom moves should be banned until we have a semblance of tiers, at which point certain custom moves should become tournament standard in order to balance the roster.

My thoughts exactly. I think that custom moves are an easy way to balance things out. Also, maybe there could be alternate sets that you could counterpick?

 

[The_World]

After reviewing the custom moves on the Smash Wiki and trying a few out myself, I think that custom moves should definitely be allowed. Most of the time the trade off for the change is pretty fair, such as trading off power for speed, or trading off speed for range. Some of them can even be counter-intuitive to certain people's play styles. For me, the only custom move I can see myself using for my main Luigi are the Burial Header and the Ice Ball. I think customs should be allowed from the get go in order to see how they are used in competitions, and then we can make a decision from their. If anything, perhaps the participants can agree to custom moves on a match by match basis, either by consensus or a coin flip for example. Mii fighters should be allowed, as some of their moves mimic other characters moves, and even the one's that don't aren't exactly overpowered.

Pardon if anything I say sounds naive. I am not too familiar with tournaments and the mindsets of those who participate in them and those who run them.

 

[Utena]

its too confusing to learn matchups and too hard to predict your opponent when you have no idea what moves their character even has access to at the start of a match.

 

[greenluigiman2]

its too confusing to learn matchups and too hard to predict your opponent when you have no idea what moves their character even has access to at the start of a match.

It should just be a rule that you let your opponent know what combination of moves you have before the match. Sure you'll have to put in more work to understand all the custom moves and how they'll work in each matchup, but that's not a bad thing at all. It will give the game more competitive depth, it will make the metagame more dynamic, and it will keep the game fresh for a very long time.

As far as Miis are concerned, I think they should be banned. I just don't think they belong in a tournament setting. It's difficult to describe why without sounding selfish, but I think people will begin to understand when tournaments become a regular thing. The idea of a personally created character winning a tournament doesn't sit right with me, and if dumbing them down to "default" is the solution, that's even worse.

In my opinion Mii only tournaments should be a thing, with equipment allowed. That's the only way you can take full advantage of the concept of Miis. You can personalize them all you want without having to be tied down to "default."

 

[MM720]

Personally I'm gonna say a huge NO for custom moves (EXCEPT with Mii Fighters).
It can be very confusing, will take away the point of studying a character and will just make matches last longer since the players have to study and adapt to the different playstyle.

While playing I lost to a Bowser who used a custom side B to Bowsercide off a ledge, and I had no way of seeing it coming (because it makes him dash before grabbing).
If I'm facing a Falco, I expect him to use normal lasers and not Fox lasers. If I face Ganon I expect him to use a Punch and not his Sword.

So yeah I'm not supporting this. People can get cheap hits in just because the opponent has not prepared himself for all the 30+ different ways for someone to make their moveset....

 

[Jiggsbomb]

I think custom moves should be banned. But when a lot of time has passed, and good tier lists have come out. Then we could try custom moves, to balance the rooster.

 

[JipC]

If Mii Fighters are globably banned I'm gonna be so damn pissed off, please ****ing don't

Personally I'm gonna say a huge NO for custom moves (EXCEPT with Mii Fighters).
It can be very confusing, will take away the point of studying a character and will just make matches last longer since the players have to study and adapt to the different playstyle.

While playing I lost to a Bowser who used a custom side B to Bowsercide off a ledge, and I had no way of seeing it coming (because it makes him dash before grabbing).
If I'm facing a Falco, I expect him to use normal lasers and not Fox lasers. If I face Ganon I expect him to use a Punch and not his Sword.

So yeah I'm not supporting this. People can get cheap hits in just because the opponent has not prepared himself for all the 30+ different ways for someone to make their moveset....

Wouldnt there only be 12 possibilites? 3 variations per custom move. Where the heck did you pull 30+ from. And this can be easily overcome if they just show you before you start or something.

 

[Cattribal]

I think the hard part is ensuring (at least in 3DS tournaments and online play) ensuring that Equipment is prohibited but custom moves are allowed. I agree that they should be allowed, but I think Nintendo should have put in a setting that allows custom moves without Equipment.

 

[BKRaiderAce]

Been a long time lurker and actually signed up just for this discussion as it's something I've been excited about. Besides slight tweaks to actual game mechanics and character roster, customization is what makes Smash 4, Smash 4, and not 64 Melee or Brawl. The arguments against it are flawed at this point in my opinion. Though the fact there could be OP combinations, yes this much is true. But there can be OP characters as well that inherently need to be banned (See Metaknight). Why ban all of it, when after a few months of them being legal we find out there are only 4 or 5 that need to be disallowed? The other part of the arguments, making it confusing to read your opponent and this and that....so you basically want to take out options/dumb down the game to make the competitive scene easier? Customizations are fun. Down the road if we ban the equipment I'd be fine for it. But it warrants a trial run at least.

 

[Utena]

It should just be a rule that you let your opponent know what combination of moves you have before the match. Sure you'll have to put in more work to understand all the custom moves and how they'll work in each matchup, but that's not a bad thing at all. It will give the game more competitive depth, it will make the metagame more dynamic, and it will keep the game fresh for a very long time.

with a roster thats 5000 characters deep, theres plenty to 'keep things fresh' already. Besides, you can always play with custom moves in friendlies.

However I do think some characters [Palutena] are going to need a custom move buff to be even remotely viable.

 

[dmcAxle]

I would agree with everything but badges for now. It's just too much effort to collect the best ones at random and some characters will have more advantage from what is discovered as "the best stat" than others. Don't really see it helping balance.

Custom moves and custom move characters are fine though, as those are all fairly well balanced.

 

[cptnOlimar]

There is no reason for custom moves not to be legal right now. Many people here say they should be banned first until we have a good meta, but I think they should be allowed at first and if some of them then turn out bad for the meta those specific ones should be banned. Customs in general add a lot of variety into matches and should be legal.

Edit: Oh and my opinion on equipment: hell NO.

 

[Downnice]

lets find out what characters should be nerfed and make rules to balance them. Other than that custom moves should not be allowed.

Miis I say as long as there balanced I have no problems with them

Equipment I say hell no

 

[Mobes]

I should preface, I don't really have a good pulse on the competitive scene or a general idea about how to let the meta evolve best as possible..

But I think custom moves should be allowed, if for nothing else then to let the meta evolve and see where it takes us. This is the time to experiment. My assumption would be that the contestants just tell each other what custom moves their using, and explain what they do if their opponent aren't up-to-speed.

If custom moves becomes too messy to keep track of, then I expect tourney's to ban them in the end.
Then again, I think tourneys this early in the games life-cycle should know how volatile its meta is.

 

[greenluigiman2]

with a roster thats 5000 characters deep, theres plenty to 'keep things fresh' already. Besides, you can always play with custom moves in friendlies.

However I do think some characters [Palutena] are going to need a custom move buff to be even remotely viable.

Nothing wrong with fresh on top of fresh.

 

[Rage NF]

So far I think it should not be banned I see no reason for that and it definitely will be fresh.

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

I don't play competitively at all, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

For custom specials, I think they should be allowed. None of the custom moves seem particularly OP, and if any are, just those can be banned. Sure, it is more complex than outright banning a character, but it's still possible to do, I think.

With Mii Fighters, I don't see much reason for them to be banned unless they're OP as well. They are complete characters gameplay-wise, so I personally think it'd be fair to keep them legal. Now if people don't like/want Miis being in tournaments, I can understand that. But whether they should be legal would be a different story.

Equipment/badges, I'm pretty sure that's a no. I don't imagine the competitive community will even consider it as an option, as it's kind of random in whatever equipment you get.

And also, I'm pretty sure the rules concerning these things might change as the metagame for Smash 4 evolves, so custom moves/Miis might be legal/banned at first but later become banned/legal. So anything can change, very possibly.

 

[kyxsune]

Definitely no equipment after seeing this. Not sure if one could do custom moves, with 0 equipment or at least enforce it.

Other wise I think most custom moves are fair.

 

[Utena]

being able to choose custom moves is too much work. Do you get to counterpick them? when do you have to announce them? or do you have to announce them at all?

There's no way they will be legal, unless they become parts of tournament standard movesets to balance characters.

Not sure why people are even discussing the possibility of equipment lmao. Fighting games should be... as vanilla as possible. Variation is bad. Consistency is good.

 

[ToadsterOven]

Everything I say yes to with exception of custom equipment. Some of them offer ballsy stats/effects like RESTORING YOUR HEALTH BIT BY BIT! That right there is a big NO-NO in competitive play. Other pieces should at least be tested out imo before reaching a verdict though I do not see it reaching a positive one.

 

[DynamicMoves]

If Mii Fighters are globably banned I'm gonna be so damn pissed off, please ****ing don't


Wouldnt there only be 12 possibilites? 3 variations per custom move. Where the heck did you pull 30+ from. And this can be easily overcome if they just show you before you start or something.

Nope. Need to multiply not add. It's 81. With 81x52 you have 4212 different characters, though the majority are clones.

Personally I say allow them. It adds an interesting amount of variety, and while some people are all worked up about wanting this game to stay as basic as possible, I personally think that that's due to a lack of skill. It should not take long to figure out what to do against a certain attack. Besides, In practice JipC is correct, it is only 12 that you really need to learn.

Ban things after the fact. The only way you can learn whether or not something is overpowered is to go ahead and play with it. Don't just speculate and get ball shrinkingly scared of something that may or may not be overpowered.

 

[GameQ]

Custom moves should be legal.

I also believe that custom moves should not be required to be announced before matches. There is a strategy to holding off from using a special move, to keep the opponent guessing. It's the balance of showing your hand too early vs the power to use your entire move set more freely.

People who don't want them seem too scared of change. Custom moves allow for more play styles, and softer tier lists (which is a good thing). The fighter is just a tool for the player to win with, and custom moves allow every player to fine tune this tool to thier play style.

Obviously, equipment is out the door.

 

[sfz]

Equipment? Hells naw. I think it's a horrible idea in the first place. As for custom specials...? Sure, why not. But I think moves should be announced so both players know what's up. Fighting a character whose abilities you don't know is ludicrous.

disclaimer: don't play competitively

 

[JipC]

Okay here's my actual opinion on it all now
Equipment: No way. Not only are the bonus effects RIDICULOUS but it also changes too much about characters. It just feels... Wrong I guess. It truely does add a seemingly infinite amount of outcomes for characters. Ones with bonus effects should be banned at all costs, no matter what, globally. Stat changing is debateable but I've not seen anyone actually support it, even casual players I know dont like it

Custom moves: Yes. There are 4 moves that are being changed here, not their moveset, not their weight or speed properties, just their 4 specials. And so far they're all pretty balanced. This plus it makes Kirby's hammer actually semi-usable again. And makes FLUDD bareable.

Miis: Sorta. I think the GUEST MIIS THAT ARE AVAILABLE BY DEFAULT TO EVERYONE should be legal all the time and dammit I will fight for this. Gunner and Brawler Miis are legit, Gunner Mii with the right specials is like the new Snake. Swordsman Mii, eh... I don't like him, feels like a mix of Link x Marth x MK but not in the good ways. ONLY Guest Miis though. It sucks I won't be able to beat people with Speedwagon, Eggman, or Reggie in tourney but I'll gladly sacrifice the whole Mii novelty for character legality. And if people are really uptight about it you could just show your opponent you making the Mii (all you'd have to do is set customs which takes just as long as setting up a tag in any other Smash game)

(To access Guest Miis simply go back a page in the Mii creator)

 

[S2]

Custom moves and Miis are fine. It gives more options for playstyle and may salvage some otherwise weaker characters.

Equipment should be banned.

 

[Bladeviper]

ok i think a good way to set up the moves for when they are picked is to name them since you can. so if you are running all the second specials the name of the layout you pick would be 2222 and so on.

 

[Noize]

I feel that custom specials should be allowed. Custom Equipment, no. Mii Fighters should be completely unbarred.

There already exist fighting games that involve this element of surprise, where you have a hidden element that the opponent can't see until after you use it. Touhou Project's Scarlet Weather Rhapsody and Hisotensoku both involed the ability to swap out abilitiies on the fly in the middle of a fight -and- customize what was essentially your supers.

If one or two become really obnoxious and unbalanced, you could ban the individual customs, but I haven't seen too many with tthe possibility of just being that overwhelming.

 

[GUIGUI]

What is the difference between
Turn custom on (all allowed)
and
Only custom specials allowed
?

 

[GUIGUI]

i think custom moves should be banned until we have a semblance of tiers, at which point certain custom moves should become tournament standard in order to balance the roster.

No. Let custom be to actually see what they can do and only ban them if one of them is really broken. I don't see why we should wait for a Tier list to be established.

Let the tiering be established with customs from the start.

 

[Cyber Crow]

I feel the need to ask why would it wait to use custom moves for a tier list? To say we need a meta first seems odd to me as you would basically be establishing something and then saying screw it once the moves were allowed. I say let the moves be open. The arguments against them just don't hold up imo. There isn't a reason to wait as the meta will be shifted by them if made legal at any point and saying it is too random, it's four moves of a kit. They don't really change who the characters are or how they play so much as letting the player play them more to their liking. Just how I see it anyways.

 

[OracleFish]

I think custom moves in tournaments are a terrible idea. Far too many combinations of moves and unexpected match-ups to memorize...which knowing how to handle different characters is a large portion of the game.

They don't allow customs in For Glory, and I think that speaks leaps and bounds about the intentions of the custom movesets - they're designed to be played around with for fun with friends.

 

[DynamicMoves]

I think custom moves in tournaments are a terrible idea. Far too many combinations of moves and unexpected match-ups to memorize...which knowing how to handle different characters is a large portion of the game.

They don't allow customs in For Glory, and I think that speaks leaps and bounds about the intentions of the custom movesets - they're designed to be played around with for fun with friends.

So for glory team is supposed to be time at 2 minutes? This is the best way then? Speaks leaps and bounds? Interesting.

 

[Thinkaman]

• Too much variety
• Too difficult to learn
• Too many matchups
• Too different from previous games
• Might be unbalanced
• Most must be unlocked

These are all great reasons why all the new characters in this game should be banned from competitive play.

Why stop at custom moves? All these given reasons still hold.

 

[GUIGUI]

Nobody has explained me yet what is the difference between
Turn custom on (all allowed)
and
Only custom specials allowed

 

[dansal]

One allows equipment, the other doesn't.

 

[GUIGUI]

That was a confusing denomination, he should have said "Custom and Equipment". I bet some voted without knowing what it meant.

 

[pizzapie7]

• Too much variety
• Too difficult to learn
• Too many matchups
• Too different from previous games
• Might be unbalanced
• Most must be unlocked

These are all great reasons why all the new characters in this game should be banned from competitive play.

Why stop at custom moves? All these given reasons still hold.

Holy **** this. Like honestly are you all listening to yourselves? All I see in this thread is a bunch of "this is too hard" or "I need to learn too much." Are you all serious?

 

[GUIGUI]

Holy **** this. Like honestly are you all listening to yourselves? All I see in this thread is a bunch of "this is too hard" or "I need to learn too much." Are you all serious?

I think what Thinkaman said was meant to be ironical, in reaction to what OracleFish had said.