choknater
Smash Obsessed
pivot usmash is tooooo good omg
very safe too (most of the time)
very safe too (most of the time)
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Squirtle Tactical Discussion
- Thread starter TheReflexWonder
- Start date
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
I mostly discovered this because of how terrible I am at inputting button presses, but I've done this thing with Squirtle where I will input hydroplane and pivot and Usmash in-place. You do not slide at all.
I'm not sure exactly on the button presses, but when it seems really obvious you're about to hydroplane I use this versus people who like to roll against my slide.
I'm not sure exactly on the button presses, but when it seems really obvious you're about to hydroplane I use this versus people who like to roll against my slide.
Umpadumpalump
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 2, 2008
- Messages
- 87
is it me or does charging water gun in the air increase air speed?
Miles.
Smash Champion
You have more control over your DI while charging it.
infomon
Smash Scientist
.... care to explain? Tap Jump has no advantages afaik, if you know how to jump-cancel your up-B and up-smash out-of-shield.
no !
CoonTail
Smash Lord
Ok so I figured I post this here since its the tactical discussion and I have new tactics. So I'm sure as most of you know you CAN chaingrab with squirtle's F-throw and I know it isnt an inescapable chain grab and can really only be done 35% and under. Well now I have found alot more use for the F-throw chain grab because when you F-throw a fox for instance I can pull off about 3 CG's, thanks to grab boosting I can push that number up to 4 or 5 CG's with the F-throw which is kinda crazy figuring 5 CG's takes a fox over quite the distance on Corneria. The best part tho is the F-throw from squirtle will cause everyone to crash into the floor if you miss the next CG(and yes I know its techable but at real low percentages alot of players will miss the tech), once they are on the ground they are perfectly open for a jab lock. So in short I managed to CG a fox 5 times across corneria thanks to grab boosting then jab locked him and this was not a one time thing. I've started to incorperate this into alot of my early % combos with squirtle. I think the best part about this tactic is that it works on olimar too!
On a side note I know that this is not a lock of a combo it can be DI'd and teched out of. I have taken note of that in the explanation but I will take note of it here again in case some still manage to not grasp the fact that I understand it can be escaped.
In short tho this combo can put alot of pressure on an opponent and if they mess up they will take alot of damage. So even if they do manage to escape it once they still will fear this, so not only is this nice mindgames but it will make early percentages on tough matchups for squirtle easier, but also help in the matchup overall such as against Olimar.
On a side note I know that this is not a lock of a combo it can be DI'd and teched out of. I have taken note of that in the explanation but I will take note of it here again in case some still manage to not grasp the fact that I understand it can be escaped.
In short tho this combo can put alot of pressure on an opponent and if they mess up they will take alot of damage. So even if they do manage to escape it once they still will fear this, so not only is this nice mindgames but it will make early percentages on tough matchups for squirtle easier, but also help in the matchup overall such as against Olimar.
Umpadumpalump
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 2, 2008
- Messages
- 87
You can DI out of Squirtle's fthrow CG, even at low percentages. You can hit an fair right after it pretty easily though, it might even be a combo at low percentages, but I haven't tested it enough.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
I noted that though and I also even noted they can tech the crash into the floor once they DI out of the grab. So im a bit confused as to the point of your post. The combo isnt guarenteed and I never said it was. It just makes it so that the other player HAS to not only DI to get out but also tech, if they mess up any part of that they get another CG or a tilt lock. So in short it leaves the other player in a bad situation with you at the complete upper hand, whats bad with that Ump?
Umpadumpalump
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 2, 2008
- Messages
- 87
Well, if they DI towards you they can avoid crashing into the ground and/or being grabbed again. I didn't say it's a bad idea though, but once they see it you'll have to mix up your throws to make it less predictable. And also, like I said, you usually can smack them with a quick fair right after.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
Ok true enough ump but if they DI in then thats still leaves them to punishment if you pay attention, my whole point is not only have I addressed that THIS COMBO IS NOT INESCAPABLE(sorry for caps but just wanted to end that once and for all) and that no matter what in this situation unless the opponent techs they will still be punished. A smart PT will be able to make the read on a DI inward which could lead to a pivot grab starting the processs all over again. Either way Im not here for a theory war Im just saying that using this combo puts you as the squirtle player in a way better situation than the opponent. If the opponent does anything outside of tech the floor when they crash into it, they can still be CG'd again or followed up on by an attack like the f-air as ump mentioned. So all I am pointing out is that this combo unlike others will not only leave squirtle with the upper hand, but will only leave the opponent with just one option to take the upper hand. This combo puts pressure on the opponent forcing them to make sure that they dont miss the oppourtunity to get out, but as ump stated if they see it coming they have a better chance of stopping it. Now those are tactics that sound very useful figuring this combo works on basically every character, whether or not squirtle can CG them because as earlier stated the F-throw causes the crash resulting in jab or tilt lock setups everytime.So thats why I wanted PT's to see this because the whole point of this combo is to break it out on early percentages, which for me since I open with squirtle is right at the beginning of the match where a player IS unsure about what my tactics are.
Fatigue does make CGing easier fearmy but thats not what I was thinking of I do this with a fresh squirtle right at the start of matches. That is the only downside to this combo is that it requires percentages 35% or under for the CG but the f-throw to tilt/jab lock can be done at any other percent
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
I have only been able to chain more than two Fthrows togethers when fatigued, but anyway Fthrow to Fthrow is funny :D
then there is no point in posting about it/using it
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
Maybe... but remember that this can put your oponnent on a bad position, so if you know they are gonna DI out of it you can chase with something else... i mean.. it makes the oponent get predictable
CoonTail
Smash Lord
Ok well I know your a real PT main typh and Im not looking to fight with you because youd end up being right just due to your play with serious serious players. Anyway Im not on that serious of a level yet and I wish I could be but I thought this was a tactical discussion thread where we discussed tactics and strategies that work or help PT and PT players overall. In my area of play this has worked out well for me in matches and helped me win, now Long Island is deffinitly not the smash community that cali is, but this tactic was quite good and worked well so I posted it to help other PT's that arent on your level. I mean alot of us are still learning to be great PT mains and trying to get to the level you have reached. I just thought I was posting this in the right place and that some could benefit, so no diss or dissrespect typh. I know your an awesome PT main(and im not trying to d*** ride just youve shown your capability and havent been modest about it lol) and your tourny results show that I was just trying to post things I found helpful to those of us who arent at the top yet.
i don't think the goal of the pokemon trainer boards should be to beat bad players, you should be playing all your matches like your opponent is pro
and i'm not going to act nice or whatever just so people like me, what do you want me to say, "even though it doesn't work on good players it's a good tactic to use on people that don't know what they're doing! ^_^ gj!"? i'm being brutally honest and saying what i think
if something doesn't work, you shouldn't use it
end of story
also
and i'm not going to act nice or whatever just so people like me, what do you want me to say, "even though it doesn't work on good players it's a good tactic to use on people that don't know what they're doing! ^_^ gj!"? i'm being brutally honest and saying what i think
if something doesn't work, you shouldn't use it
end of story
also
i don't have any "knowledge", i don't know any "combos" or "ATs", i practice against good people and i play my character well, which should be your goal
Miles.
Smash Champion
Truth.
I get frustrated with the PT boards when they argue with the more experienced people.
If lets say Typh/AD/or Myself ever tell you something doesnt work or actually isnt good, we arent doing it to make you feel dumb or look silly. Its to tell you that "hey that actually doesnt work unless your opponent is stupid".
we want you to know that that is unreliable against someone good, because if you practice combos that "work on your friends" when you finally play someone who is at a competitive level/tournament level you would get *****.
Also tactics and strategies and match ups are suppose to be discussed assuming both players are playing at the highest level of skill AND that both characters know the match up well as well.
If you actually abandoned you noob tactics that may work on your friends, and got serious and tried changing it up i think that you would be surprised at how much you started to beat your friends by.
also just because you beat your friends doesnt mean you are good. you should always strive to get better. try to beat them more. try to get even better at reading them. try to be able to beat them even if you are being flashy or experimenting.
But seriously it is post like "It works good for me" or "it works against my friends" that makes me not want to post.
i dont want to discuss your match ups with your friends.
i want to discuss pt at the highest levels off play and about how the matchups/moves/ATs/whatever will work or not work when you arent playing a ******/scrub/noob.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
I get what your saying typh but the thing is that the people I play against arent horrible or scrubs these are the same people I go to tournies with. I competely get it though if it doesnt work on the highest level of play I shouldnt be using it because I strive to get to that level and practicing this is no help so that is understood. The only thing is tho people didnt expect this and it has worked in about 3 tournaments before this. I kno I havent shown nearly enough of myself as a PT for you to have an idea of me but the people I play with may not be pros but are very far from scrubs. SO mayb this wont work at your level and I need to find new things I just thought tactics that worked that many times in a tourny were worth while to post so point understood. NExt though you dont have any knowledge or combos well thats kinda funny cuz Im pretty sure I learned what I should follow up razor leaves with because of what you stated, so you have knowledge and Im not trying to copy your playstyle just your info on followups to razor leaves works really well and nothing else has been able to work as well as those followups, so I dunno I think you got some knowledge but w/e Ill say Im prob wrong
Ok IRL I deffinitly understand the anger over the works well for me or against my friends because alot of garbage does come from that, but as I posted for typh my backing for that squirtle tactic was because it worked in about 3 tournaments so I figured it had to be good if it was working at those. Also as earlier stated I havent done enough for you guys to see my play but my friends do not suck and this is not defense of them were all tourny players who go to at least 2 tournies a month and i dunno mayb skill level out here on Long Island is just trash but we seem to hold our own at tournies. So overall my bad for blowing up I just get angry when I feel i found something and people say no and I gotta chill with that, but overall this really worked in tourny scenarios and did exactly what I explained earlier so point taken guys, but Im not random scrub posting I really do have at least a clue what Im doing and I wont say more because Im not here to say Im the best Im just here to show Im a solid PT with tourny standings that knows what hes doing, if you guys dont feel the same then I guess Ill just have to show some more knowledge
Miles.
Smash Champion
someone test if this really goes as far as i hope it does
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=549538#p549538
my wii is broken loloolol
also this is probably really old but i am stupid and don't know anything so idc
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=549538#p549538
my wii is broken loloolol
also this is probably really old but i am stupid and don't know anything so idc
Ukemi
Smash Apprentice
I found an actual use for D-smash! I don't play competitively so I'm not sure how well this would work, but here goes.
I have heard that you might as well use U-smash in every situation you would use D-smash. Not true. U-smash usually for killing, and you'll probably want to save it for later. But that's not all. D-smash makes your hitbox MUCH smaller and puts hitboxes on the sides of you. Why is this important? Because you can actually dodge many attacks (mainly aerials) using this move. It's a nice way to handle approaches when you can't predict your opponent. If they come at you with a higher attack, you dodge, they miss, and chances are you'll react faster with an U-tilt than they could with another attack. If it's a lower approach, they'll likely take damage and you'll likely be safe. Also, D-smash, I think, comes out a little faster than U-smash does, allowing you to react to your opponent better. I'm pretty sure many attacks can poke through U-smash and catch Squirtle for some damage. But D-smash can avoid that damage. Why not just spotdodge? Spotdodging, while it avoids the attack, will not have any chance of damaging the oppponent (but it may lead to a better punishment, I don't know, you guys find that out). Using both spotdodging and D-smash can foil many approaches, at the same time giving you options to be unpredictable.
So I guess the more experienced people can play around with this, as I am a casual n00b. And if any of this stuff is wrong, please tell me! (more importantly, make sure someone doesn't get false information!)
And on another topic (avoiding double post). Has anyone tried to play Squirtle crawling? There's lots of attacks that can be avoided and this kind of playstyle could help Squirtle in some matchups. However, some matchups would suffer from this playstyle, mainly anything involving projectiles that hit the ground (bombs, leaf, arrows, icicles, Falco's reflector).
I have heard that you might as well use U-smash in every situation you would use D-smash. Not true. U-smash usually for killing, and you'll probably want to save it for later. But that's not all. D-smash makes your hitbox MUCH smaller and puts hitboxes on the sides of you. Why is this important? Because you can actually dodge many attacks (mainly aerials) using this move. It's a nice way to handle approaches when you can't predict your opponent. If they come at you with a higher attack, you dodge, they miss, and chances are you'll react faster with an U-tilt than they could with another attack. If it's a lower approach, they'll likely take damage and you'll likely be safe. Also, D-smash, I think, comes out a little faster than U-smash does, allowing you to react to your opponent better. I'm pretty sure many attacks can poke through U-smash and catch Squirtle for some damage. But D-smash can avoid that damage. Why not just spotdodge? Spotdodging, while it avoids the attack, will not have any chance of damaging the oppponent (but it may lead to a better punishment, I don't know, you guys find that out). Using both spotdodging and D-smash can foil many approaches, at the same time giving you options to be unpredictable.
So I guess the more experienced people can play around with this, as I am a casual n00b. And if any of this stuff is wrong, please tell me! (more importantly, make sure someone doesn't get false information!)
And on another topic (avoiding double post). Has anyone tried to play Squirtle crawling? There's lots of attacks that can be avoided and this kind of playstyle could help Squirtle in some matchups. However, some matchups would suffer from this playstyle, mainly anything involving projectiles that hit the ground (bombs, leaf, arrows, icicles, Falco's reflector).
Post above mine is quite interesting, but I came here for another reason:
How is the shellshifted forward jab performed? Usually when you perform it you attack reversed:
1. Running this way -->
2. Switching direction <--
3. Hitting this way before leaving the shell -->
4. Pressing (A)
5. I'm sliding this way <-- Jabbing this way -->
Are you just supposed to, before step 4 hit <-- again or what? Sounds like more pain and less gain to me.
Oh, and: Charged neutral b for squirtle is underrated you guys! It's difficult to land in a good way but on Ness and Lucas it's too good, and for characters with crappy recovery it's equally killing.
How is the shellshifted forward jab performed? Usually when you perform it you attack reversed:
1. Running this way -->
2. Switching direction <--
3. Hitting this way before leaving the shell -->
4. Pressing (A)
5. I'm sliding this way <-- Jabbing this way -->
Are you just supposed to, before step 4 hit <-- again or what? Sounds like more pain and less gain to me.
Oh, and: Charged neutral b for squirtle is underrated you guys! It's difficult to land in a good way but on Ness and Lucas it's too good, and for characters with crappy recovery it's equally killing.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
I would not consider anything posted above nooby at all..... to me d-smash is just the same as the U-smash when it comes to a kill option, only difference being u-smash kills completely vertical and d-smash kills completely horizontal. D-smash has the water splash around the outside of it giving it more deceptive ranged as stated by Ukemi. D-smash is one of the best smashes to hydroplane and as Ukemi said it is a very safe option. Overall I find myself using d-smash more than u-smash just because it is quicker and safer(not to mention it sets up water gun kills
) So in short Ukemi nice post I deff think d-smash is something all squirtles should incorperate into their gameplay.As far as the squirtle crawling goes...... that to is extremely useful against almost all projectiles and is also the reason I love squirtle's AT the reverse shift. Squirtles crawl is highly underestimated dodges alot of projectiles and when you can basically hydroplane while crawling its just too good of an approach.
So overall Ukemi great post this is stuff more squritles should look into/ implement into their playstyles if they havent already, because reverse shifts and d-smashs are huge parts of my playstyle just due to what you had listed about them.
Ukemi
Smash Apprentice
Surprises are always nice. It has nice range I think. I still can't find a good way to use it either besides ease of use when crawling around.
And on another note, has anyone tried doing anything defensively with uncharged Water Gun (which I highly suggest we nickname for typing purposes). I've broken some combos and deflected some projectiles, but that's about it.
*lunges self at opporuntiy to name a move*
Yeah, like a mindgame move. That's about it for now then.
This one is also mindgame-ish. I mean, it looks like you're gonna charge your watergun, but instead you attack. Haven't got my wii here, and I don't remember how much lag it has after it's been performed. However, if you could follow up with f-tilt, we got ourselves a neat little trick.
Yeah, here is my suggestion: WGA (Water Gun Attack), which made me think of WA (Watergun Attack), which made me think of attack, and then combining with water: Wattack, and then, adding the element of surprise in this attack: WHATTACK!
...Admit that Whattack is pretty good ^_^
Edit:
This came while I was posting, anyhow: Ok, didn't know, thanks. ^_^
Kinzer
Mammy
*Cough*
I guess apparently I'm bumping this thread.
Doesn't matter I guess, seeing as how mods don't want me making new threads, and that's understandable.
So my introduction...
Kinzer the Hedgehog here, just letting you all I'm working on a project for the Sonic boards, and you people... more specifically Squirtle specialists, have been chosen on the next rotation (get it?).
I'll need your aissistance, because even though I've picked up PT as a secondary (and became an Ivysaur specialist), I might not know as much as any of you would (Hell, I don't even know how to Hydroplane with Squirtle -_-)
If you're interested, please visit the link provided below! ^_^
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205101
When contributing, please take a quick glimpse of the OP to get an idea of what I'm looknig for.
Your assistance is very much appreciated, and I shall be back for Ivysaur & Charizard later.
BTW PT is cool, but underrated.
I guess apparently I'm bumping this thread.
Doesn't matter I guess, seeing as how mods don't want me making new threads, and that's understandable.
So my introduction...
Kinzer the Hedgehog here, just letting you all I'm working on a project for the Sonic boards, and you people... more specifically Squirtle specialists, have been chosen on the next rotation (get it?).
I'll need your aissistance, because even though I've picked up PT as a secondary (and became an Ivysaur specialist), I might not know as much as any of you would (Hell, I don't even know how to Hydroplane with Squirtle -_-)
If you're interested, please visit the link provided below! ^_^
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205101
When contributing, please take a quick glimpse of the OP to get an idea of what I'm looknig for.
Your assistance is very much appreciated, and I shall be back for Ivysaur & Charizard later.
BTW PT is cool, but underrated.
Ukemi
Smash Apprentice
Hmm... I like Whattack, which I think should be shortened to Whatt (or Whack, but Whack's a real word).
Just wondering, why aren't these tactical discussion threads stickied?
Just wondering, why aren't these tactical discussion threads stickied?
@ Kinzer (didn't feel like qouting that thing): Hey, it's that post! I've been there before, I used to hang around in the ganny-forums. I'll see if I'm gonna post.
I don't know, 'cus we aren't serious enough? I think the OP has to be pretty good to get a thread stickied.
Hehe, nice, "what" only misspelled ^_^ I'll still go for whattack though (or whack since that's really random), it's not that annoying to write.
I don't know, 'cus we aren't serious enough? I think the OP has to be pretty good to get a thread stickied.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
All three are in the thread index, which is stickied. That's why I didn't sticky any of the individual ones.
OK, i read through this ENTIRE thread (quite the ordeal mind you) and am still curious as to whether squirtle's nair has super armor frames. Anyone know?
Lots of info in here btw, i've been hydroplaning to AAA combo's and dsmashes now since reading this. Thanks to everyone who contributed.
Lots of info in here btw, i've been hydroplaning to AAA combo's and dsmashes now since reading this. Thanks to everyone who contributed.
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
You can do a lock with Squirtle. Normal A ftw.
Yeah, there's also the a-a lock, which is easier and looks better to me at least (the second hit moves you forward, you wont have to move and do neutral a's which I find difficult), and the f-tilt lock which is possibly more effective on low percents.
I want a list of which moves you can lock from. My favourite on low % is b-throw, but I want MORE!
Good question. Anybody know this?
CoonTail
Smash Lord
SO after seeing this I put myself to work to see if anywhere on the PT boards it was documented that squirtles n-air had super armor, but I return with no finds. I swear I have heard or seen something about the n-air and super armor, but with no posts I cant say its true. I have rebumped the moveset discussion threads which would have been the best bet as to figuring out if the n-air did have super armor, but in the moveset discussions the poke's n-air's were not discussed. I have found the n-air to be a real solid move to push through rough approaches made by your opponent. I have fought links for spam the gale-boomerang which normally creates a nasty wall once thrown that squirtle has a hard time manuvering around, yet if you n-air into it you cancel the boomerang completely and due to the autocancel on the n-air its a real great way to stop the gale boomerang wall approach that link players use. Also I had problems with mario spamming fireballs along with luigi and this brought me to find you can n-air into the fire balls and the auto cancel still occurs so you can essentially short hop n-air into an oncoming fireball to neutralize it, then once the n-air auto cancel's you can jab to either cancel out the next fire ball or if they were too slow start any combo that opens with a jab. So in short I have no rock hard evidence the n-air has super armor frames, but the attack can **** sure cancel out projectiles and allow for immediate follow up jabs, with this you can push through alot more approaches with squirtle and overall really mess with a player's decisions. Once you push through a mario fire ball approach without taking damage that mario will be reluctant to try it again.
Anyway if anyone has actual solid evidence of super-armor please inform us.