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So how then do casuals and elitist interact?

KosukeKGA

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
Messages
2,165
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Phoenix, AZ
Don't use the word elitist or pro. IT'S COMPETITIVE.

Also, competitive players have much more fun than "casual" players because "casuals" bind themselves to scrubby rules.

EDIT: If you don't see the fun in competitive play, then you obviously haven't delved into it far enough. In the end, the amount of fun you get for working towards getting better at the game is worth it.

People who quoted my post and made an immature response to it are casuals in denial.
 

Arteen

Smash Lord
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Oct 2, 2005
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Vault
Article said:
These infamous pariahs of tactics and others like them are gathered under the umbrella term "exploit," two ubiquitous syllables that echo throughout the gaming world.

I would like to suggest a few more colloquialisms that could huddle under that umbrella, namely "shorthopping" and "wavedashing."
Shorthopping? Really? How can someone possibly consider that an exploit? Nearly every game with jumping works that way, where a tap causes a short jump, and holding down the button causes a higher jump. :urg:

As for the rest of the article, how would he feel if someone from the dorms that he didn't know, and who was just as good as the high schoolers, won?
 

Chaosblade77

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
Don't use the word elite or pro. IT'S COMPETITIVE.

Also, competitive players have much more fun than "casual" players because "casuals" bind themselves to scrubby rules.
The irony of that is, that is the exact argument that "casual elitests" use against competitive players.
 

jellis186

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
82
aight, so competitive palyers then.

1) And to say that one group has more fun than the other is absurd. What exactly does fun have to do with being a competitive player. Not saying they dont enjoy themselves, but it seems more that casuals play the game for the pure fun of it while competitive players play for the fun of beating someone else. In which case, the competitive can get their fix elsewhere.

2) Did you read the article, it has nothing to do with fun or scrubby rules.

But of course this has no bearing on my question. Should competitive players waste their time with these little "scrub" tourneys or is it a way to find new talent/fanbase.
 

Chaosblade77

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
Talent and fanbase? I don't think highly skilled players go out and look for other good players to compete with.

Basically, it would come down to exactly what you said in the first post (cash) as well as that last one (just to beat someone), although most people probably don't think that way. There is also the fact they just enjoy the game and like to play with other people.

That just leaves how they should interact, and that post I replied to in my last response is an example of how they shouldn't. In a perfect world two people who play and enjoy the same game should be able to accept each others way of playing the game... but some people have their heads stuck so far up in places censored by this board that they think anyone who plays the game differently than them plays it wrong.
 

SeriousWB

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
189
No one has more fun than another at the game for ****'s sake!

If you say casuals have more fun you are a casual***
If you say competitive players have more fun you are a tourney***

Both sides have fun for god's sake *head explodes*
 

Cookiez

Smash Ace
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Feb 24, 2008
Messages
564
Location
London, UK
Anyhow, seeing as no-ones actually answered ( ^^ ), i'd say in this stuation the "competetive" player should offer solid advice and be up for as many matches as possible. I mean your improving everyones game whilst showing off your uber 1337ness! its win win <3
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
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Casual players don't get pissed off when they lose. I wonder who has more fun?
Yeah thats a lie >_>

Most competitive players don't get mad when they lose either. I see alot more "Good Game/Good ****" then I see WTFOMGITOTALLYSHOULDHAVEWONTHISISSOUNFAIR****YOUIHOPEYOUDIE!!!!!!!!!!!(<-once said to me when I won a match as Pichu against some random scrub. I WASN'T wavedashing)
 

Cookiez

Smash Ace
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Serious WB I <3 You. I play competetively, and enjoy the rules that come with it. Other people play "for fun", and enjoy it just as much as I do. Its just personal preference, and people should accept that.

Also NickA is stupid.

Edit: I'm also stupid, double post ^^;;
 

M.K

Level 55
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Jul 10, 2007
Messages
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North Carolina
Don't use the word elite or pro. IT'S COMPETITIVE.

Also, competitive players have much more fun than "casual" players because "casuals" bind themselves to scrubby rules.
You...are SO wrong. You deserve a slape across the face for that statement. :mad:
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
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Jun 4, 2006
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Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
God, that article was painful to read. Boo ****ing hoo, someone is better than you at a game. All they can do is freaking whine about it and wish they hadn't come?

Those people need to be seriously sirlin'd


EDIT: also, how is someone an elitist just because they shorthop?
 

Pi

Smash Hero
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Lake Mary, Florida
I think Competitive players enjoy the game overall more so than casual players. Why? Because you never hear them complaining about how the casual players play >.>.


The only people instigating these type of arguments are casual players. 'This and that is cheating, don't abuse exploits, why limit maps, why destroy the game by not using items, my way of play is better than your way of play.'

Not to mention it seems to me that the only people getting upset over losing are casual players when vs. competitive players.

If you don't want to or feel that the game should be played that way then don't. But keep your mouth shut about it because it's not up to you. You can't dictate how others have fun, so just do things your own god **** way and the rest of civilization do it theirs.
 

MrOtter

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Jan 13, 2008
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340
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UK - Stafford/Leeds.
That article was rediculous.

It was stated as a tournament, not a clique gathering. Nothing was ever made clear. For as elevated as the writers diction is, he clearly didn't have the sense to create rules and regulations when advertising the "tournament". Had he called it a University based Smash Gathering, the whole fiasco would of been avoided. How were the Smashers to know that they'd be violating a "casual tournament".

His description of technique vs exploit was ignorant aswell. Those guys are clearly abiding by strict honor codes, and in doing so they'll never get any better. I mean, what if a guy gets too good even playing the way the game is "meant to be played"?

"Go on Derek, bugger off. You're too good."
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

Smash Lord
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Central New York
Tournament player and Non-tournament player.

There.

Done.

No one can complain, unless they are trying to flaunt superiority or something to that effect.
 

Chaosblade77

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
I think Competitive players enjoy the game overall more so than casual players. Why? Because you never hear them complaining about how the casual players play >.>.


The only people instigating these type of arguments are casual players. 'This and that is cheating, don't abuse exploits, why limit maps, why destroy the game by not using items, my way of play is better than your way of play.'

Not to mention it seems to me that the only people getting upset over losing are casual players when vs. competitive players.

If you don't want to or feel that the game should be played that way then don't. But keep your mouth shut about it because it's not up to you. You can't dictate how others have fun, so just do things your own god **** way and the rest of civilization do it theirs.
Usually, but not always. I have seen some competitive/tournament players that put down casual players because they don't strive to be like the people who play in tournaments, be it because of advanced techniques, playstyle choices, or anything.

It's not a one sided thing, and even though casuals do it more often, it's still not even a majority of them. Yeah, the guy in the article was whining but that isn't the mindset of all casual players... nor is the "OMG U GIUSE SHUD USE ITEMS" and "STOP CHEETING."
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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I just hate how competitive players use the word Scrub. Makes them sound like they think they are all high and mighty.
It's not about being high and mighty... it's about people who create rules for themselves inside a video game is silly, and there isn't anything wrong to play to win. It's a division in maturity.
 

Dreiko

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
234
About the pleasure thing....everybody is different so everybody derives different levels of pleasure from the game , a 5 year old who's never touched a game would most likely be happier than a 50 year old tourney goer and world champion...simply cause of the diminishing returns of pleasant activities.

As for comparing the pleasure levels of competitives and casuals...well if you're being casual about somethign that means it's not your favorite thing in the world , that would indicate that they like the game less than the competitive players...this has nothign to do with how they play the game and weather they wavedash with fox only at final destination or not...just the fact that they're being casual about it displays their lesser attraction to the subject.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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just the fact that they're being casual about it displays their lesser attraction to the subject.
Or the fact that competitive players play the game a hell of a lot to improve their skills, instead of playing it every so often which is the case with most casual players. That's not to say every casual player falls into this category, but most do.
 

Mess

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
43
Location
Toronto
I never understood what was so fun about:
NO ITEMS. FOX ONLY. FINAL DESTINATION.
 

Wildfire393

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
335
I never understood what was so fun about:
NO ITEMS. FOX ONLY. FINAL DESTINATION.
Let's break these down, and un-hyperbole them.

No Items: The game becomes more about skill than what items happen to drop right next to you. Characters get to take full advantage of their entire moveset, rather than the four moves you can perform while holding an item. The differences between characters become more apparent, allowing for more diverse play.

"Fox Only": This is a common misconception, due to the fact that many competitive players play fox. Fox is the most powerful character in the game, due to his immense speed in running, attacking, and falling. He also has the "drillshine", which can result in an inescapable combo against some characters if performed 100% perfectly, but is immensely difficult to pull off. However, if you'll watch top level play, it will usually include, at minimum, Falco, Marth, Sheik, and Peach in addition to fox (these are the top two tiers). Often the top few characters of the middle tier (cap falcon, ice climbers, samus) show up as well. The thing is, Melee has balance issues, and these issues put Fox in the #1 slot. If you have a godlike level of skill, are you going to settle for less than the best?

Final Destination: Again, this is a misconception. Tournament play has half a dozen stages on the random Rotation (Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, Dream Land (64), Fountain of Dreams, Final Destination, and Pokemon Stadium), and more are available to counterpick. Final Destination is the most favored of these stages because it has absolutely zero random interference (so does Battlefield, but it is common for characters to get caught under the lip of battlefield, making it less favored by many). This allows the game to be played ENTIRELY with skill. This and No Items fall in the same basic category. If you are very good at something, do you want random crap popping up that will throw you off? Sure, it might throw your opponent off as well, but I for one would rather we both be able to play at the best of our ability, so the best player actually wins.
 

Toshiba

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Oct 9, 2006
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Pinehurst, NC
The point that was made about hearing competitive players call casuals scrubs is completely void as i can guarantee that the terms "tourney-***, exploiter, cheater etc" are used far more often by the casual players to attempt to insult the competitive ones.

The main problem with most of these types of threads, and really the attitudes of a good number of the casual players who began frequenting these boards since the hype about brawl began, is that they for whatever reason illogical believe that what competitive players do at tournaments somehow affects them. I really cannot understand how this idea came into being, but it is extremely popular these days it seems.

Now if i was just a casual player, and I never planned on going to a single tournament, why would I care if every single tournament player used fox (which is completely false, but it has become popular among those who visit 4chan), played every match on final destination (also false), and never used items. How would that affect me in the slightest? Honestly that would be like someone who personally does not like milk having a deep grudge against cows somewhere on the other side of the planet simply because they bear milk. The cows have absolutely no affect on said "milk-hater", yet this person rants and raves on forums and in public incessantly because they have somehow been offended by the cow. Its ludicrous.

Now I am a reasonable person, so I can understand some casual players getting upset if a more competitive player (or group of them) was to show up and beat them in their own casual tournament. However, since these casuals neglected to clearly explain their rules, there is nothing that can be done about that specific incidence. Now if it really bothered them that much, for next time they should elaborate and clearly say, "no wave dashing, no short hopping etc." Just as how more competitive tournaments clearly state, no items, certain stages banned and the such. It is not unreasonable to ban techniques, stages, items, play styles etc, if the people running the tournament are in agreement. Just as how most competitive tournaments have banned certain tactics like wobbling, there should be no issue with others banning wavedashing if that is there prerogative. Basically, its up to those involved to decide what they want, and no one else should get involved as they can simply go elsewhere if they do not like the rules.

Personally if I was those high schoolers and I saw that article, I would go to the next one, use 0 advanced tactics (including short hopping apparently) and beat them anyway. The reason why i think they would likely win anyway is because in order to be classified as competitive they have likely spent much more time on the game than the casuals, so even without wavedashing and the such they should have a pretty good advantage just because of time played. I don't mean this as in they should go and gloat and be elitist, I simply think that these casual guys should see that there is more to the average competitive player than simply "broken tactics" and "exploits".



O and as a preementive strike, because i know this is likely to happen, I happen to be a Huge Tourney-***.
 

SmashBro99

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Don't use the word elite or pro. IT'S COMPETITIVE.

Also, competitive players have much more fun than "casual" players because "casuals" bind themselves to scrubby rules.
I lol'd.

Ignorant post kiddie.

I'm a competitive player but sometimes I play with items because it IS fun. If you like Marth vs Marth on FD yet think items are NOT fun that's your opinion, even if it is flawed.
 

montyalbo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
94
Tournament player and Non-tournament player.

There.

Done.

No one can complain, unless they are trying to flaunt superiority or something to that effect.
Yea, I like those labels better
though I dislike the huge number of syllables contained in those words.
 

Wight

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Finland - Hell
So how then do casuals and elitist interact? Reply to Thread
by sitting in front of the TV and playing. I never got this meecrob. I play very competatively and some of my friends very casually, yet we still play with each other just fine. They don't complain if use advanced techs, and i don't complain if they want to put on a few items here and there.

So i dont see what the big problem is. People just need get over this rediculous argument (almost called it a debate, but that would imply it'd be organised) and grow up.

This has always been such a baffeling topic. I don't understand the untimely and unnecessary hostility.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
It's not about being high and mighty... it's about people who create rules for themselves inside a video game is silly, and there isn't anything wrong to play to win. It's a division in maturity.
You do realize "competitive" players create far more rules for themselves, right?

I'm not for one side or the other, but both sides create inane rules.
 

Zink

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STEP YO GAME UP
that was a really bad article. isn't shorthopping in the instruction manual?
it's pretty simple. if you are a tourney-goer, you will go to tournaments. if you are at a tournament, you are a tourney-goer. if you avoid tournies, you are casual, and have no interest in competitive players.
 

Pink Reaper

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You do realize "competitive" players create far more rules for themselves, right?

I'm not for one side or the other, but both sides create inane rules.
Yeah, but competitive rules are made to even out the playing field and keep things as un-random as possible. Scrub rules fall more under the idea of "If something is good, i won't use it," i.e. Chain grabs, Edge hogging, Shine anything. Those rules do nothing but hold you back and have no real relevance.
 

Xengri

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I stopped reading after this stroke of genius -_-…

These infamous pariahs of tactics and others like them are gathered under the umbrella term "exploit," two ubiquitous syllables that echo throughout the gaming world.
I would like to suggest a few more colloquialisms that could huddle under that umbrella, namely "shorthopping"[Seriously? Exploit? Obviously taping the jump button to jump lower is exploiting the physics. Yeah, I bet rolling is probably a exploit to. Way to go…] and "wavedashing."

The rest of the essay was probably just another generic QQ from someone who has no idea what they’re talking about.

Confirm/Deny?
 

Zink

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STEP YO GAME UP
I stopped reading after this stroke of genius -_-…

These infamous pariahs of tactics and others like them are gathered under the umbrella term "exploit," two ubiquitous syllables that echo throughout the gaming world.
I would like to suggest a few more colloquialisms that could huddle under that umbrella, namely "shorthopping"[Seriously? Exploit? Obviously taping the jump button to jump lower is exploiting the physics. Yeah, I bet rolling is probably a exploit to. Way to go…] and "wavedashing."

The rest of the essay was probably just another generic QQ from someone who has no idea what they’re talking about.

Confirm/Deny?
confirm, there was also something about how he hosted a tourney and got owned, or something.
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
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You do realize "competitive" players create far more rules for themselves, right?

I'm not for one side or the other, but both sides create inane rules.
Sensible rules: No Items. No stages with absurdly powerful exploits. No stages with high random factors. No pausing the game mid-match.

Inane rules: No Chaingrabbing. No wavedashing. No shorthopping. No shines.

The difference lies here: the first set of rules removes random or overly abusable elements from the game, focusing instead on the skill of the player. The second set of rules ignores some of the basic techniques which do not upset balance in the game.
 

joepinion

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Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
138
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Columbus, OH
Slow down everybody. The article was not at all malicious, and if you are voiding the article because he misidentified short hopping, then you're not interested in an open mind whatsoever (e.g. hearing him out even though the way he puts things aren't perfect). btw, to casual players, shorthopping can be HARD.

This is simply an article relaying the experience... The guy puts himself at fault for the strange experience and doesn't regret letting the HS players play. He says they were in awe of the players, not angry with them. It's more along the lines of the TC's question, musing on how these two types of players should be interacting. It's not an attack, and the fact that many of you are lashing out at the author is disgusting and not helping the reputation of tourney players.

Here's the gist of the article: There are two worlds. One exists in pure competition. It's a good world where people legitimately get very good at the game (exploit or no exploit). The other is a world seeking inclusion of as many people as possible; did you notice that what the author enjoyed was bringing so many people together? He's not criticizing the competitive players!!

He's just reflecting on the collision of these two worlds in his dorm room one night. They play to win. He and his friends play in order to bring as many people together as possible. This board is ample evidence that when the worlds collide we have problems.
 
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