So how then do casuals and elitist interact?

[naevorc]

Casual players don't get pissed off when they lose. I wonder who has more fun?

...people playing competitively aim to become better. but if you get pissed off that shows you just have little self control, stop generalizing like an ***.

 

[A New Challenger]

Wow, this turned into a stupid, pointless debate. Anyway, funny article was funny. College guys too timid to kick out a couple of high school kiddos because 'it had been advertised on facebook.'

Why do so many men have ******s these days?

 

[Xengri]

confirm, there was also something about how he hosted a tourney and got owned, or something.

Yeah I thought so.
I don't get it... If you find something so "cheap" and/or "abusive" then,

A. learn how to do it and use it against other people.
Or
B.Ether that or accept the fact that you'll lose to people who choose option A.

Come on, these "cheap" techniques we crazy "elitist" use aren't that hard to pick up.

Shorthopping...

Edit:

Slow down everybody. The article was not at all malicious, and if you are voiding the article because he misidentified short hopping, then you're not interested in an open mind whatsoever (e.g. hearing him out even though the way he puts things aren't perfect). btw, to casual players, shorthopping can be HARD.

It's not that I'm closed minded. It's that I'm wise enough to know not to listen to the ramblings of someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about.

I can get if it was a light error but calling shorthopping a exploit and, having took the time to put it in quotation marks?? There's no way around that, he has no idea what a exploit is and probably knows very little about smash as a whole.

And, I hope you're being sarcastic about shorthopping being hard...
That's just finger sensitivity and takes maybe 10-15 minutes at most to practice and master.

I guess up-tilts are out of the question then...

(I'll admit that I've botched a few shorthops and Utilts, but they aren't hard...)

 

[Lolatology]

I think Competitive players enjoy the game overall more so than casual players. Why? Because you never hear them complaining about how the casual players play >.>.


The only people instigating these type of arguments are casual players. 'This and that is cheating, don't abuse exploits, why limit maps, why destroy the game by not using items, my way of play is better than your way of play.'

Not to mention it seems to me that the only people getting upset over losing are casual players when vs. competitive players.

If you don't want to or feel that the game should be played that way then don't. But keep your mouth shut about it because it's not up to you. You can't dictate how others have fun, so just do things your own god **** way and the rest of civilization do it theirs.

I lol'd.

I've seen a bunch of tournament players complain about the way casuals play.

This whole argument pisses me off, and I'm directing this at casuals and tourney players. Who gives a **** how someone plays their game? The only thing that you should care about is how each type of player acts.

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

Elitist and elite do not mean the same thing.

 

[shadydentist]

I would advise that people read the *whole* article. The ending surprised me, and made me think.

 

[NES n00b]

Stop being a tool.

Stop being a tool.

I went to one of these events (I was invited though) and nobody seemed to really feel the need to try and kick me out. I am guessing people go to these tournies cause they want to have fun, too. I mean really. Come on people.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, but competitive rules are made to even out the playing field and keep things as un-random as possible. Scrub rules fall more under the idea of "If something is good, i won't use it," i.e. Chain grabs, Edge hogging, Shine anything. Those rules do nothing but hold you back and have no real relevance.

Wrong. As I said I'm not for either side but it is just your opinions. You claim your rules are right and theirs are wrong.

Yours are to "even out the field" or perhaps "make the game less interesting with less elements to it".

They like to "play with random scrub items" or "play with more things making the game more interesting".

There is two sides to both and neither is right. Just play what you enjoy and stop spending your time insulting other people for what they like. I play both ways and they both have their own merits, neither is wrong.

Personally, I think people are crazy that don't play BOTH ways. Items are crazy fun, and no items are serious fun. I think if you don't play both regularly you're missing out on one half of this fantastic game. Now get over yourselves.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Wrong. As I said I'm not for either side but it is just your opinions. You claim your rules are right and theirs are wrong.

Yours are to "even out the field" or perhaps "make the game less interesting with less elements to it".

They like to "play with random scrub items" or "play with more things making the game more interesting".

There is two sides to both and neither is right. Just play what you enjoy and stop spending your time insulting other people for what they like. I play both ways and they both have their own merits, neither is wrong.

Personally, I think people are crazy that don't play BOTH ways. Items are crazy fun, and no items are serious fun. I think if you don't play both regularly you're missing out on one half of this fantastic game. Now get over yourselves.

Actually, im not talking about the items or anything like that as there are no generally accepted casual rules. Im talking about the need to prove they can win with the rules they themselves(each one individually with different rules) and prove they are the best. However for the most part the self inflicted rules tend to be about honor and fairness like "No edgehogging" and "No Chain grabbing." The fact is, even when they play with all items on Big Blue they still impose those rules on themselves, rules that THEY made up for only themselves and believe it is the "right" way to play.

Also, do you play coin/stamina matches? Your crazy if you don't and your missing out on major parts of a fantastic game

 

[Mzero]

I took a stab at being competitive for a while. I got ok,but i hated forcing myself to learn new techniques that i didn't like to use. So i gave that up.
With Brawl, we shouldnt give a **** about how anybody plays cuz if we dont like it, we can just play someone else. 1 match with a casual or competitive player isnt gonna make the game suck.

 

[jellis186]

Slow down everybody. The article was not at all malicious, and if you are voiding the article because he misidentified short hopping, then you're not interested in an open mind whatsoever (e.g. hearing him out even though the way he puts things aren't perfect). btw, to casual players, shorthopping can be HARD.

This is simply an article relaying the experience... The guy puts himself at fault for the strange experience and doesn't regret letting the HS players play. He says they were in awe of the players, not angry with them. It's more along the lines of the TC's question, musing on how these two types of players should be interacting. It's not an attack, and the fact that many of you are lashing out at the author is disgusting and not helping the reputation of tourney players.

Here's the gist of the article: There are two worlds. One exists in pure competition. It's a good world where people legitimately get very good at the game (exploit or no exploit). The other is a world seeking inclusion of as many people as possible; did you notice that what the author enjoyed was bringing so many people together? He's not criticizing the competitive players!!

He's just reflecting on the collision of these two worlds in his dorm room one night. They play to win. He and his friends play in order to bring as many people together as possible. This board is ample evidence that when the worlds collide we have problems.

Exactly what I was trying to get at. Should the competitive players make more of an effort to go to these small events to create, for lack of a better word, "hype" for the competitive scene. And should casuals go to tourneys just to watch and enjoy the skill involved with the techniques they have yet to master?

 

[Sliq]

If you think wavedashing and l-canceling is unfair, you would probably think castling is unfair in chess, considering if someone did it to you and you didn't know about it, you would blame that one thing for your defeat, as opposed to a gaping maw of a skill gap.

Basically, casuals hardly ever host tournaments worth going to (due to ******** rulesets or there extreme lack of advertising it). However, if some casual does hold a tournament, and a competitive does go to it, then the casuals need to not be jerks about him showing up.

Tournaments are about competing. Otherwise, why not just play for NOTHING? Why not just play friendlies.

The fact of the matter is, unless someone from either camp is an *******, then there shouldn't be any malice or ire between the two. However, if the competitive insults the hosts, calling them noobs and what have you, or the noobs are hostile to a competitive screaming cheap and whining like babies, that is when the problems arise.

It has less to do with skill and more to do with personality and maturity.

Also, I have found that I am a lot more cool headed about Melee NOW that I am competitive as opposed to when I was a noob, because now I can see a strategy and form a counter, when before I had such limited knowledge about the game that it seemed like there was nothing I could do (when there was A LOT I could do).

 

[Zink]

Exactly what I was trying to get at. Should the competitive players make more of an effort to go to these small events to create, for lack of a better word, "hype" for the competitive scene. And should casuals go to tourneys just to watch and enjoy the skill involved with the techniques they have yet to master?

I can't see pros going to small tournies, especially if they are going to be targets of bad feeling. And why would any casual go to a tourny just to watch? If you want to see cool smash stuffs combo vids are far better.

 

[MookieRah]

You know how the two groups should act? They should act how they did before melee was announced, because honestly, there were no major conflicts with the casual and competitive scene.

You guys know what? It wasn't casuals or competitives that started this war either. It was a bunch of ******* little idiots on both sides. They divided people up into two camps and demonized each other. Before this had happened, neither side really bothered the other and we coexisted peacefully.

Also... someone pointed out a group of competitive players criticizing casual play... What context were they in? Were they mocking how items are random? Also, ask yourself, were they imposing this on other players? From my entire gaming experience, there are VERY few competitive players that have actually TOLD other how to play. Very very few. We might criticize other play styles with each other hanging out with friends, but we don't invade forums and tell others they are wrong. There is a vast difference there.

 

[MookieRah]

Ack accidental double post:

However, I forgot to mention. Look at the site. Look at the threads. This is what you will see. Casual players telling competitives how we should play. The pro-competitive play threads aren't telling others how to play, they are merely defending competitive play. The casual scene makes it out like we are squelching them and running around making others play their way and telling how they should play... yet they are doing that and we just want to be able to play how we want.

 

[Hylian Link]

Slow down everybody. The article was not at all malicious, and if you are voiding the article because he misidentified short hopping, then you're not interested in an open mind whatsoever (e.g. hearing him out even though the way he puts things aren't perfect). btw, to casual players, shorthopping can be HARD.

This is simply an article relaying the experience... The guy puts himself at fault for the strange experience and doesn't regret letting the HS players play. He says they were in awe of the players, not angry with them. It's more along the lines of the TC's question, musing on how these two types of players should be interacting. It's not an attack, and the fact that many of you are lashing out at the author is disgusting and not helping the reputation of tourney players.

Here's the gist of the article: There are two worlds. One exists in pure competition. It's a good world where people legitimately get very good at the game (exploit or no exploit). The other is a world seeking inclusion of as many people as possible; did you notice that what the author enjoyed was bringing so many people together? He's not criticizing the competitive players!!

He's just reflecting on the collision of these two worlds in his dorm room one night. They play to win. He and his friends play in order to bring as many people together as possible. This board is ample evidence that when the worlds collide we have problems.

I'm not sure how long I've been registered here. and I know I've never posted, but I browse from time to time. I just wanted to say that I think some of you are overreacting to the article. Joepinion is correct about what the article is really about, and even though the guy who wrote the article may have made some mistakes about what is or isn't an exploit, doesn't make the point of his article invalid. Be sure to read the whole thing.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, im not talking about the items or anything like that as there are no generally accepted casual rules. Im talking about the need to prove they can win with the rules they themselves(each one individually with different rules) and prove they are the best. However for the most part the self inflicted rules tend to be about honor and fairness like "No edgehogging" and "No Chain grabbing." The fact is, even when they play with all items on Big Blue they still impose those rules on themselves, rules that THEY made up for only themselves and believe it is the "right" way to play.

Also, do you play coin/stamina matches? Your crazy if you don't and your missing out on major parts of a fantastic game

Those rules at least make sense. There are people that want to play the game the way it was designed (i.e. without exploits like wave dashing, or any glitches, etc.) which I abide by. I don't edge hog either because I find it dishonorable (though I do edge GUARD). And I still beat people that "do anything to win".

I say play how you want and don't judge others. Some people will do anything they can to win it doesn't matter what it is, edge hogging, wave dashing, etc. That is their mentality.

I won't criticize how you play, and they shouldn't criticize how I play. We all play our own way and all abide by completely different rules depending on the person and that's fine, I see where both sides are coming from.

And I tried coin/stamina matches but they weren't very fun, not to mention they don't really feel that different or unique/interesting. Items makes a big difference in how the game plays out and adds a lot to it. And if people don't find items fun then whatever, but there is a lot of crazy antics to be had with them.

 

[Metalknux]

Casual players don't get pissed off when they lose. I wonder who has more fun?

What the heck are you talking about? That's one of the biggest, idiotic stereotypes I've ever heard. My brother acts like an annoying piece of crap when he loses, and we're both casuals. Being a casual doesn't automatically make you this carefree, happy-go-lucky kid who's always having fun.

 

[NES n00b]

And I tried coin/stamina matches but they weren't very fun, not to mention they don't really feel that different or unique/interesting. Items makes a big difference in how the game plays out and adds a lot to it. And if people don't find items fun then whatever, but there is a lot of crazy antics to be had with them.

So then how can you say I am crazy for "missing out" on item matches? This is how I feel about item matches. Also, you are definitely not as good as your post implies you are.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Those rules at least make sense. There are people that want to play the game the way it was designed (i.e. without exploits like wave dashing, or any glitches, etc.) which I abide by.

If there is one thing you should NEVER say its "play the game the way it was designed" or anything along those lines. You yourself said it, the game should be played however anyone wants to play it, as such there is no way it should be played.

Also, honor does not exist.

 

[joepinion]

You guys know what? It wasn't casuals or competitives that started this war either. It was a bunch of ******* little idiots on both sides. They divided people up into two camps and demonized each other. Before this had happened, neither side really bothered the other and we coexisted peacefully.

QFT. Both sides cause problems.

The article, however, is not a competitive-player-bashing fest. That's why his confusion about short hopping is irrelevant. It's anecdotal evidence that the very nature of the two types of players causes problems, even amongst the mature (ie everyone mentioned in the article). Amongst the immature (those referenced by Mookie in the above paragraph) it's far worse.

And if you refuse to see this point in the article, you might be in that group.

 

[jellis186]

Everyone hold up, where in the hell did this article say a god **** thing about items?

 

[Xengri]

Alright, I went back and actually read it just to make sure I wasn’t jumping the gun.
I wasn’t to far off ether.
He’s frequent use of unfair and mentioning short hopping as some kind of advance tech makes it hard to look at this other then some misguided rant, but whatever, I’ll look past that for the sake of the thread.


So, what is this about anyway. What’s so confusing here?
Four guys entered a public tournament and they happen to be the only ones that played competitively and use advanced techs (I’m going to assume they did more then just wavedash).
How can you not expect that to happen when you advertise, especially on a popular site?

Even so, if it was only four guys. You could have just stated that wave dashing and shorthopping(-_-…). are banned at the tournament.
They saw them doing it before the tournament right?
That way the other players would feel that they were beaten "fairly".


The four competitive players were at a tournament mostly attended by casuals so, they have to bend to the casual's rules. (no wavedash, no chain grab, items on, or whatever else)
Same way, if a casual goes to a tournament with mostly people how use ATs, then they should expect to play the way competitives do. (no items, banned stages, Ats, etc).

But, for some reason the guy who wrote the essay decided not to enforce casual rules at the tournament so it’s really his fault if his was tournament “unfairly” dominated .
If the four didn’t want to play by the casual’s rules, then they could have left.

Short answer:
How do casuals and competitives interact?
If the setting you are in has more casuals then competitves. Bend to the will of the casuals and play by their rules or don't participate.

If the setting you are in has more competitives then casuals. Watch, learn from them(if you want to play like them), or leave them be.

Do not, I repeat, Do not criticize they're way of playing. <--- That goes for both situations.

I used casual and competitive a lot in that one. Don’t know a better word to use, but you get my point.

 

[Toshiba]

Shadowxor, that argument you just brought up has to be one of the worst brought here by the casual community as of late. Not only does it show your arrogance, but it kinda begs the question, "where the hell does this guy get this from". The answer? From all the casuals on here who have made this their game winner, their ultimate comeback to all things competitive.

I am of course referring to the argument of "play it as it was meant to be played", which is completely ridiculous. The first clue leading us to a treasure chest filled with bull**** would be that not one, no not even one of you, happens to be Sakurai. As long as that assumption is correct, I have just debunked the entire argument, but if that happens to not be enough, I could partake in some further invalidation.

B- Wavedashing (public enemy #1) was DISCOVERED before the game was released and brought to Sakurai's attention. The man who made melee, the mastermind behind the entire smash brothers world CHOSE to keep wavedashing in. Hmm... kind of makes you think that possibly that is how the game is meant to be played eh? Though I will be so arrogant as to make assumptions as, referring back to point 1, Im not Sakurai.

C- When interviewed and asked about advanced tactics in melee, and whether he welcomed their use or not, he specifically stated that he "Loved to see people do creative things with his games."

Those three points should be above and beyond what would be necessary to end this argument once and for all. That is, if the community to which this applies would only listen to reason, but the age of the CHans has forsaken reason all together, so I know this will not hit home as it should to logical, clear-thinking people.

 

[Sliq]

Those rules at least make sense. There are people that want to play the game the way it was designed (i.e. without exploits like wave dashing, or any glitches, etc.) which I abide by. I don't edge hog either because I find it dishonorable (though I do edge GUARD). And I still beat people that "do anything to win".

Just to be clear, you don't beat anyone of any real merit. I only say this because you brought up your victories as if to brag about your accomplishments, and I'm here to say that that accomplishment means nothing. I'm not being a **** just because, I'm simply pointed out that you're being conceited, and that **** is universally annoying and hardly ever poignant.

I say play how you want and don't judge others. Some people will do anything they can to win it doesn't matter what it is, edge hogging, wave dashing, etc. That is their mentality.

I won't criticize how you play, and they shouldn't criticize how I play. We all play our own way and all abide by completely different rules depending on the person and that's fine, I see where both sides are coming from.

The reason you would catch flack is for making up seemingly arbitrary "honor" rules. There is no standard for what is and isn't honorable, and playing for "honor" seems archaic, as we aren't in feudal Japan or ancient Greece. Furthermore, it is a video game, not a pistol duel. Playing for honor seems pointless, seeing as there is no way to gauge who fought the most honorably, and the most honorable isn't awarded the victory.

Furthermore, by claiming you are playing honorably is implying that those that don't follow your personal rules are playing dishonorably, which is sort of an arrogant assertion, regardless of whether or not it is intentional. Another name for playing dishonorably is playing cheaply, and therefore we come back around to the basic noob standpoint.

I know you didn't say anything, or even that you believe it, but it is implied indirectly through your mindset.

I don't CARE that you that's how you play. I'm just pointing out why people would mock you.

And I tried coin/stamina matches but they weren't very fun, not to mention they don't really feel that different or unique/interesting. Items makes a big difference in how the game plays out and adds a lot to it. And if people don't find items fun then whatever, but there is a lot of crazy antics to be had with them.

Yes, items are good if you want crazy antics, not so much if you want a legit competition.

 

[Sliq]

B- Wavedashing (public enemy #1) was DISCOVERED before the game was released and brought to Sakurai's attention. The man who made melee, the mastermind behind the entire smash brothers world CHOSE to keep wavedashing in. Hmm... kind of makes you think that possibly that is how the game is meant to be played eh? Though I will be so arrogant as to make assumptions as, referring back to point 1, Im not Sakurai.

C- When interviewed and asked about advanced tactics in melee, and whether he welcomed their use or not, he specifically stated that he "Loved to see people do creative things with his games."

Could I get some sources for this, because wavedashing wasn't known about until a few YEARS AFTER Melee's release. Furthermore, you're quoting someone, and I **** sure want to see where this quote is coming from (i.e. the real source or your butt).

Edit: Sorry for the double post. I thought I was editing my last post...

 

[SmashChu]

Don't use the word elite or pro. IT'S COMPETITIVE.

Also, competitive players have much more fun than "casual" players because "casuals" bind themselves to scrubby rules.

You, sir, fail harder then anyone ever has. Your fail is harder then diamonds. Your fail creates famines. You fail so hard, then even if you had Epic WINS from now until the end of eternity, you would still fail harder then anyone else on this forum.

I wish I could hate you bald.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Casual players don't get pissed off when they lose.

Wow. Just wow.

Everyone gets pissed when they lose, some people take it better than others but no one likes losing.

The only time I enjoy losing is when I play someone WAY better than me, because I spend the time to study his moves and learn more about what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Zink]

Could I get some sources for this, because wavedashing wasn't known about until a few YEARS AFTER Melee's release. Furthermore, you're quoting someone, and I **** sure want to see where this quote is coming from (i.e. the real source or your butt).

Edit: Sorry for the double post. I thought I was editing my last post...

iirc, when checked in Action Replay debug mode, wavedashing has a special name (different actions have different internal names, and wavedashing had one).

 

[Pink Reaper]

Shadowxor, that argument you just brought up has to be one of the worst brought here by the casual community as of late. Not only does it show your arrogance, but it kinda begs the question, "where the hell does this guy get this from". The answer? From all the casuals on here who have made this their game winner, their ultimate comeback to all things competitive.

I am of course referring to the argument of "play it as it was meant to be played", which is completely ridiculous. The first clue leading us to a treasure chest filled with bull**** would be that not one, no not even one of you, happens to be Sakurai. As long as that assumption is correct, I have just debunked the entire argument, but if that happens to not be enough, I could partake in some further invalidation.

B- Wavedashing (public enemy #1) was DISCOVERED before the game was released and brought to Sakurai's attention. The man who made melee, the mastermind behind the entire smash brothers world CHOSE to keep wavedashing in. Hmm... kind of makes you think that possibly that is how the game is meant to be played eh? Though I will be so arrogant as to make assumptions as, referring back to point 1, Im not Sakurai.

C- When interviewed and asked about advanced tactics in melee, and whether he welcomed their use or not, he specifically stated that he "Loved to see people do creative things with his games."

Those three points should be above and beyond what would be necessary to end this argument once and for all. That is, if the community to which this applies would only listen to reason, but the age of the CHans has forsaken reason all together, so I know this will not hit home as it should to logical, clear-thinking people.

You do realize that Wavedashing was only discovered well after Melee was released and shown to the dev team afterwards right? Not to say your full of **** or anything, but your just sort of making things up and it destroys your credibility and your aloof position will only cause more distrust from the likes of casual players.

 

[Kinlap]

Wasn't wavedashing discovered during the ancient times of melee tournaments when people used to air dodge + catch iems? It took a while for people to find that out when someone did it too close to the ground, and even more time to actually make it more than a gimmick of the game's physics.

 

[joepinion]

The TC started a good topic.

The topic was immediately murdered by people who incorrectly think they're not part of the problem.

The end.

 

[Sliq]

iirc, when checked in Action Replay debug mode, wavedashing has a special name (different actions have different internal names, and wavedashing had one).

Big fat false on that one. "Landfall Special" occurs after anything in which you are in the falling state in which you can not react i.e. after you up b or after you air dodge. At this point you are in "landfall special" mode. Some people thought this meant wavedashing=landfall special, when all it really meant was you air dodged (which you need to do to wavedash). So no, it is NOT in the debug menu.

 

[Pink Reaper]

iirc, when checked in Action Replay debug mode, wavedashing has a special name (different actions have different internal names, and wavedashing had one).

I think that had more to do with having an air dodge come in contact with the ground. Yes I know that SOUNDS like wavedashing, but it was more along the lines of just sort of hitting a surface while air dodging, not actually using it to move.

Edit: What Sliq said >.>

 

[Papapaint]

Big fat false on that one. "Landfall Special" occurs after anything in which you are in the falling state in which you can not react i.e. after you up b or after you air dodge. At this point you are in "landfall special" mode. Some people thought this meant wavedashing=landfall special, when all it really meant was you air dodged (which you need to do to wavedash). So no, it is NOT in the debug menu.

What I was going to say.

 

[Fonz]

You're all dishonorable short hoppers.

 

[Zink]

I'm aware of landfall special. I was under the impression that there was another action for wavedashing? If not, my source was incorrect.

 

[Whiteface]

You, sir, fail harder then anyone ever has. Your fail is harder then diamonds. Your fail creates famines. You fail so hard, then even if you had Epic WINS from now until the end of eternity, you would still fail harder then anyone else on this forum.

I wish I could hate you bald.

Well that was certainly harsh....

Anyways in my opinion i think that if a tourney is casual or competitive the rules should clearly identify the guidelines as to the allowed rules, techs etc.

Thus whether a pro shows up at a casual or vice versa they'll still have to play by certain rules.

 

[Sliq]

You're all dishonorable short hoppers.

 

[Senshuu]

When I watched a tourney, I wasn't really awed. I was bored. First time too, "Why are they not using items?" "It's fair." "...Oh."

Tourney-casual interaction in person isn't nearly as stupid as it is online, anyway. The few tourney people I talked to were pretty nice.