Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Because there's some characters that just wouldn't make it if they weren't echoes. It's not like the removal of an echo would make a unique character. There's some characters that are more appealing to be unique characters because well... they're more unique. The echo moniker throws a bone to characters that can still work being modeled after another. Dark Samus and Richter certainly wouldn't have made it in otherwise.

As far as Echoes go, the only one I genuinely want at this stage is Ms. Pac-Man, for fairly obvious reasons. At least don't leave her stuck in MS Paint limbo, Bamco.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

 

[Deleted member]

Heck, considering that Smash 4 didn't even include semi clones, I wouldn't be surprised if clone newcomers would have been a thing of the past had Sakurai not decided to upgrade Lucy and Pitto partway into 4's development.

Smash 4 did include a semi-clone though. The official term is Photoshopped Fighter.

 

[blazefan519]

Hey, so here's a question for everyone. A lot of these 'Games' we're playing asks for pick so many characters to add and such, but even without mentioning Echoes, people are still adding characters like Impa, Shadow, Isabell, etc as Echoes.

Why?

Given the chance, wouldn't you want a character to be unique?

Sure, shadow can be an echo, but he's got just as much potential at being unique too, you know. I mean, Im not really gunning for the guy, but he runs completely differently than sonic (he skates instead of runs), so his movement animation is actually totally different. Not to mention he uses Chaos abilities as opposed to sonic simply spin dashing everything. They share alot, but they also don't, so given the chance, why would you want him, or any of these others, as echoes unless the 'game' specifically demands Echoes?

I kind of feel like we've gotten so accepting of the term and existence of Echoes that we're adding them freely without even wanting said characters to be unique. If thats the case, then how much do you actually care about those characters if you're fine with them simply being clones?

Because some characters wouldn't have gotten in otherwise. Daisy, Chrom, and Dark Samus are all characters that certain fans have wanted but weren't added on the principle that they'd be too similar to the original character. I mean with Chrom, Sakurai flat out told us that was the reason he was cut. Now that that reason has been thrown out with them embracing clones with the term Echo Fighter, there's a lot more characters we can get now that we wouldn't have had previously. Sakurai has mentioned that the main focus of Ultimate was getting every veteran back and to not expect many fighters because of it, and just recently he has stated that the picks for characters this time around are based on the ballot. So now, popular characters are going to take priority of being completely unique, and Echo Fighters will be there for the lesser popular characters that wouldn't have been able to get in due to time constraints and development time. If every possible newcomer that I wanted was completely unique, I'd be setting myself up for disappointment because I know that resources are more limited and time is being spent on the heavy hitters, so what's more likely to happen is that characters who share a lot of similarity with another are added in as Echoes to please me and other fans who wanted them to be playable. And then with 3rd parties like Shadow, I don't find it likely that he'd get in any other way than an Echo, so it makes the most sense to me for him to be one just because of the fact that he is extremely similar to Sonic.

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

I am 99% sure that I've seen that Shadow render before.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Here's a twist on the 'pick some newcomers' games we've been playing based on our conversations yesterday (or the day before?)

We were arguing over whether it was better to add characters from newer games for their relevance to newer fans or older games for their nostalgia factor for older fans. So let's consider adding newcomers to represent time eras - you need to choose a newcomer who debuted in each of the 5-year periods below.

Before 1990
1990-1995
1995-2000
2000-2005
2005-2010
2010-2015
After 2015

---

Here are mine:

Pre 1990: Toad (first game - Super Mario Bros 2 - 1988)
early 90's: Tails (first game - Sonic the Hedgehog 2, 1992)
late 90's: Ivy (first game - Soulcalibur, 1998
early 00's: Skull Kid (first game - Zelda: Majora's Mask, 2000)
late 00's: Twili Midna (first game - Zelda: Twilight Princess, 2006)
early 10's: Dovahkiin (first game - Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, 2011)
Post 2015: Urbosa (first game - Zelda: Breath of the Wild, 2017)
Zelda bias? What Zelda bias?

I was thinking perhaps the roster, limited as it is, would span a wide variety of eras for both nostalgia and relevancy, probably leaning on the former from what we've seen so far. I'll go with wish list, but still remain realistic.


Before 1990: Arthur (Ghosts 'n Goblins, 1985)
1990-1995: Tails (Sonic the Hedgehog 2, 1992)
1995-2000: Banjo & Kazooie (Banjo-Kazooie, 1998)
2000-2005: Isaac (Golden Sun, 2001)
2005-2010: Chibi-Robo (Chibi-Robo!, 2005)
2010-2015: Wonder-Red (The Wonderful 101, 2013)
After 2015: Joker (Persona 5, 2016)

 

[Deleted member]

Amazing what a bit of marketing jargon can do.

To be fair, another good point is that they're forward about it. Smash 4 inly saw Lucina as its first Clone/Echo after a long period of speculation. Here we've basically known about them since Day One and not only does it make it easier for people to accept them, but also leaves it very clear these characters are copies of others.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

That first pic, whoever that girl is, that render is either distorted or horrible

 

[KMDP]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

Very interesting.

That first pic, whoever that girl is, that render is either distorted or horrible

That's probably Ayumi Tachibana.

 

[Deleted member]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

Delicious, finally some good ****ing leak.
Don't recognize any of the renders on sight which is a good start.

Who are the two dudes on the right though? And is that Aymui on the left?

 

[Deleted member]

Because some characters wouldn't have gotten in otherwise. Daisy, Chrom, and Dark Samus are all characters that certain fans have wanted but weren't added on the principle that they'd be too similar to the original character. I mean with Chrom, Sakurai flat out told us that was the reason he was cut. Now that that reason has been thrown out with them embracing clones with the term Echo Fighter, there's a lot more characters we can get now that we wouldn't have had previously. Sakurai has mentioned that the main focus of Ultimate was getting every veteran back and to not expect many fighters because of it, and just recently he has stated that the picks for characters this time around are based on the ballot. So now, popular characters are going to take priority of being completely unique, and Echo Fighters will be there for the lesser popular characters that wouldn't have been able to get in due to time constraints and development time. If every possible newcomer that I wanted was completely unique, I'd be setting myself up for disappointment because I know that resources are more limited and time is being spent on the heavy hitters, so what's more likely to happen is that characters who share a lot of similarity with another are added in as Echoes to please me and other fans who wanted them to be playable. And then with 3rd parties like Shadow, I don't find it likely that he'd get in any other way than an Echo, so it makes the most sense to me for him to be one just because of the fact that he is extremely similar to Sonic.

I am 99% sure that I've seen that Shadow render before.

I'm willing to accept a lot of people wanted Dark Samus, Shadow, Chrom etc, but Daisy? Wasn't it just that one lunatic that really wanted her?

 

[PSIGuy]

I've heard people say the first pic is Agnes Oblige (Bravely Default), Tifa Lockhart or the Famicom Detective Club girl. Damndest thing.

 

[Chrono.]

Most of the echoes I see getting around are characters that work just as well that way. Like Shadow or Isabelle.

Some are a little iffy, like Ken.

In the context of Smash, Shadow works perfectly as Sonic's echo because Sonic's toolkit is generic enough that you'd only have to tweak minor things here and there. On top of that it wouldn't be an inaccurate portrayal as Shadow typically plays the same as Sonic in most games where both are playable.

Ken, on the other hand, is a little different. Because Ryu in Smash is extremely faithful to how he plays in his games, in fact, his entire toolkit literally right out of Street Fighter IV 1:1. Ken in SFIV was pretty different from Ryu, so he would need more than a couple tweaks. Otherwise, it'd be an inaccurate portrayal of the character. Same goes for Akuma (who is even more distinct.)

 

[Icedragonadam]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

Oh look, someone trying to be the next ESRB leaker and absolutely failing at it.

But then again Ken looks like a potato which is pretty accurate.

 

[Deleted member]

Very interesting.

That's probably Ayumi Tachibana.

Seems more like Bravely Default girl whatever her name is.

 

[KMDP]

Delicious, finally some good ****ing leak.
Don't recognize any of the renders on sight which is a good start.

Who are the two dudes on the right though? And is that Aymui on the left?

Ayumi, Chorus Kid, Isaac, Ken
Isabelle, Shadow, Skull Kid, MYSTERY

Ngl I'd be okay with this.

 

[Idon]

I'm willing to accept a lot of people wanted Dark Samus, Shadow, Chrom etc, but Daisy? Wasn't it just that one lunatic that really wanted her?

Nah, the Daisy fanbase has a decent number of people.
How many were pushed away or rallied by that lunatic is debateable, but nonetheless, there are a subset of people who are fans of her.

 

[P.Kat]

Here's a twist on the 'pick some newcomers' games we've been playing based on our conversations yesterday (or the day before?)

We were arguing over whether it was better to add characters from newer games for their relevance to newer fans or older games for their nostalgia factor for older fans. So let's consider adding newcomers to represent time eras - you need to choose a newcomer who debuted in each of the 5-year periods below.

Before 1990
1990-1995
1995-2000
2000-2005
2005-2010
2010-2015
After 2015

---

Here are mine:

Pre 1990: Toad (first game - Super Mario Bros 2 - 1988)
early 90's: Tails (first game - Sonic the Hedgehog 2, 1992)
late 90's: Ivy (first game - Soulcalibur, 1998
early 00's: Skull Kid (first game - Zelda: Majora's Mask, 2000)
late 00's: Twili Midna (first game - Zelda: Twilight Princess, 2006)
early 10's: Dovahkiin (first game - Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, 2011)
Post 2015: Urbosa (first game - Zelda: Breath of the Wild, 2017)
Zelda bias? What Zelda bias?

Before 1990: Valkyrie (Valkyrie no Densetsu - 1989)
1990-1995: Terra (Final Fantasy 6 - 1994) / Rayman (Rayman - 1995)
1995-2000: Sakura Kasugano (Street Fighter Alpha 2 - 1996)
2000-2005: Sora (Kingdom Hearts - 2002) / Shantae (Shantae - 2002) / Lyn (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade - 2003)
2005-2010: Amaterasu (Okami - 2006)
2010-2015: Elma (Xenoblade Chronicles X - 2015)
After 2015: Fjorm (Fire Emblem Heroes - 2017) / Rex and Pyra (Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - 2017)

 

[Nethermoosen]

Very interesting.

That's probably Ayumi Tachibana.

That’s probably *fake.*

I don’t know what Ayumi Tachibana means, but the translation is clear in the context.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Oh look, someone trying to be the next ESRB leaker and absolutely failing at it.

But then again Ken looks like a potato which is pretty accurate.

I think it looks like that because Ken and Isaac are supposed to be from the large full cast picture. They kinda match the style of it

 

[blazefan519]

I'm willing to accept a lot of people wanted Dark Samus, Shadow, Chrom etc, but Daisy? Wasn't it just that one lunatic that really wanted her?

No. Memoryman gives a lot of Daisy fans a bad rep and you really shouldn't look at him when it comes to Daisy. She's actually very popular in Japan, and does have a decent following here.

Delicious, finally some good ****ing leak.
Don't recognize any of the renders on sight which is a good start.

Who are the two dudes on the right though? And is that Aymui on the left?

Looks like Isaac and Ken

 

[KMDP]

Seems more like Bravely Default girl whatever her name is.

Agnes Oblige

To be fair, another good point is that they're forward about it. Smash 4 inly saw Lucina as its first Clone/Echo after a long period of speculation. Here we've basically known about them since Day One and not only does it make it easier for people to accept them, but also leaves it very clear these characters are copies of others.

Sakurai: Seriously, guys. Clone characters ARE NOT TAKING UP ROSTER SPACES, geez.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

Have to point out what I saw on 4chan, that the Isabelle render is hideous and very unlike her. Like she looks like she's trying to pay attention to a boring conversation.

 

[Chandeelure]

Isaac and Ken don't look very "3D" IMO, they look like drawings.

 

[Deleted member]

I've heard people say the first pic is Agnes Oblige (Bravely Default), Tifa Lockhart or the Famicom Detective Club girl. Damndest thing.

I mean...its not impossible. She DOES have silver eyes and the rest of that looks like what'd she'd be with a switch-updated look. Though like people have pointed out, Ken and a couple others look awful. Its almost like a poor version of a 'puzzle' leak, like 'these are the characters that are in, if you can recognize them!" but aside from the first, they're all instantly recognizable....

 

[Idon]

I've heard people say the first pic is Agnes Oblige (Bravely Default), Tifa Lockhart or the Famicom Detective Club girl. Damndest thing.

I don't think it's Agnes Oblige as her hair is always swept to the right while the render has it swept to the left.

 

[Zinith]

Just because someone wants an Echo doesn't mean they're being lazy with coming up with a moveset. I have ideas for differences between Yoshi and Boshi that I listed on my Support Page

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Seems more like Bravely Default girl whatever her name is.

If it's supposed to be they failed hard

 

[KMDP]

Have to point out what I saw on 4chan, that the Isabelle render is hideous and very unlike her. Like she looks like she's trying to pay attention to a boring conversation.

Isabelle: *nods politely* Uh-huh... yeah... that's nice...

 

[StormC]

Here's a twist on the 'pick some newcomers' games we've been playing based on our conversations yesterday (or the day before?)

We were arguing over whether it was better to add characters from newer games for their relevance to newer fans or older games for their nostalgia factor for older fans. So let's consider adding newcomers to represent time eras - you need to choose a newcomer who debuted in each of the 5-year periods below.

Before 1990
1990-1995
1995-2000
2000-2005
2005-2010
2010-2015
After 2015

---

Here are mine:

Pre 1990: Toad (first game - Super Mario Bros 2 - 1988)
early 90's: Tails (first game - Sonic the Hedgehog 2, 1992)
late 90's: Ivy (first game - Soulcalibur, 1998
early 00's: Skull Kid (first game - Zelda: Majora's Mask, 2000)
late 00's: Twili Midna (first game - Zelda: Twilight Princess, 2006)
early 10's: Dovahkiin (first game - Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, 2011)
Post 2015: Urbosa (first game - Zelda: Breath of the Wild, 2017)
Zelda bias? What Zelda bias?

Interesting game. Let's see who fits on my list...

Before 1990: Ganon (The Legend Of Zelda, 1986)
1990-1995: Dr. Eggman (Sonic The Hedgehog, 1991)
1995-2000: Banjo-Kazooie (Banjo-Kazooie, 1998)
2000-2005: Isaac (Golden Sun, 2001)
2005-2010: Infernape (Pokemon Diamond And Pearl, 2006)
2010-2015: Dillon (Dillon's Rolling Western, 2012)
After 2015: Decidueye (Pokemon Sun And Moon, 2016)

1995-2000 was rough, since I had to sacrifice Dixie and Bandana Dee for Banjo. Picking someone for 2005-2015 was the most difficult. I just went with my favorite Pokemon for Infernape, lol.

 

[blazefan519]

Seems more like Bravely Default girl whatever her name is.

Agnes Oblige? Hm, now I kinda do want a Bravely Default character. Inb4 that's the Square character Verge was referring to

 

[KMDP]

I've heard people say the first pic is Agnes Oblige (Bravely Default), Tifa Lockhart or the Famicom Detective Club girl. Damndest thing.

It can't be Tifa Lockhart.

Because Tifa Lockhart has red eyes.

 

[DarkFalcon]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

I feel like I've seen that Skull Kid render before. Someone hurry up and debunk this lol. It looks really fake but still.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

Finally some picture leaks.

Also, I believe the girl in the top left might be Agnes from Bravely Default? Maybe?

 

[Chrono.]

Agnes Oblige? Hm, now I kinda do want a Bravely Default character. Inb4 that's the Square character Verge was referring to

I'm not ready for the salt mines if that's the case.

 

[blazefan519]

View attachment 160427

If it's supposed to be they failed hard

It wouldn't be the first time.

I'm not ready for the salt mines if that's the case.

I will
prepares the tea, getting ready to sip it

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Let's play a game. The newcomer you want the most joins the game, but one of the original 8 characters from SSB64 (so not counting the unlockables) has to be removed from Ultimate. Who are they?

Dovahkiin for ... I'd say Jiggly, but... ugh. Gotta go with Fox - assuming Falco in Melee then becomes Fox and Falco is the one out.

Delicious, finally some good ****ing leak.
Don't recognize any of the renders on sight which is a good start.

Who are the two dudes on the right though? And is that Aymui on the left?

Are these supposed to be the renders or just some "lol I just got random pics of the next characters!"

And Ken looks like a photoshopped Ryu ()

 

[Noipoi]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/429622692#p429625147

you guys talked about this yet

Wow, this looks like trash.

Ken looks especially derpy.
Isabelle looks like she's politely trying to tell someone to piss off.
Shadow needs to chill.
Skull Kid looks shook.

0/10 none of them are a photoshopped Little Mac.

 

[Deleted member]

View attachment 160427

If it's supposed to be they failed hard

Considering everything here looks pretty bad, I'd say it's appropriate.

Yeah, I'm super unfamiliar with Bravely Default so I had no clue which direction her hair went. It doesn't really match Ayumi either so...

 

[Deleted member]

I've heard people say the first pic is Agnes Oblige (Bravely Default), Tifa Lockhart or the Famicom Detective Club girl. Damndest thing.

Definitely not Tifa. Official Artwork has her eyes as reddish.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the main problem is that the renders all look inconsistent. They don't seem to match artstyles at all but still, probably the most interesting leak we've had for a good while.