Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[LetterO]

After talking to a ton of people and thinking about things I tried to make a realistic roster of possible echoes for smash ultimate. Aka the most realistic choics for echo fighters. Included ones already confirmed for the sake of consistency This is the result.
I think these are THE most likely echoes that will get in. I firmly believe at least a few of these will make it in the final roster. Tried to think of realistic choices that haven't been deconfirmed yet.

If this happens, we'd have 5 DK reps and that's pretty cool.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Chrom has Roy/Marth moves + Aether
Black Knight will have Ike moves + Roy's Dolphin Slash

I think the fact that the Black Knight is covered in heavy armor makes it so that he can't be an echo fighter or anyone.

Yeah, I know his speed stat is high, but have you seen him in the PoR and RD cutscenes? He shakes the ground with every step. He deserves to be a tank, not a bruiser like Ike.

Moreover, I feel that he's a fairly minor choice for an echo anyways.

 

[Johnknight1]

What if the reason we haven’t seen Melee Mute City is because it’s getting a makeover?

Great, I’m already disappointed at the inevitability of this not happening.

BELIEVE
BELIEVE
BELIEVE
BELIEVE

Because we are 100% getting Mute City Melee back, and it will be GLORIOUS!!!

It would also be freaking hilarious to play on as Ryu and Ken for the sole purpose of breaking cars!!!

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I gotta admit.

I think people saying that the Black Knight could be an Ike echo are crazy.

Why won't you let me DREAM Swamp?!

Edit: In all honesty, if we're going to get a lot of villains this game, he'd be a good Fire Emblem *ahem* "Villain".

 

[Will]

After talking to a ton of people and thinking about things I tried to make a realistic roster of possible echoes for smash ultimate. Aka the most realistic choics for echo fighters. Included ones already confirmed for the sake of consistency This is the result.
I think these are THE most likely echoes that will get in. I firmly believe at least a few of these will make it in the final roster. Tried to think of realistic choices that haven't been deconfirmed yet.

Dude Sakurai lied to us! We have 26 newcomers!!
Nah dude Echoes don't count, we only got 4 fam

 

[Johnknight1]

This thread right now:

Swamp Sensei GIVE UP ON YOU DREAMS

Johnknight1 BELIEVE BELIEVE BELIEVE

The true battles of wills!!!

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think the fact that the Black Knight is covered in heavy armor makes it so that he can't be an echo fighter or anyone.

Yeah, I know his speed stat is high, but have you seen him in the PoR and RD cutscenes? He shakes the ground with every step. He deserves to be a tank, not a bruiser like Ike.

Moreover, I feel that he's a fairly minor choice for an echo anyways.

This sounds a tiny bit like the "Dark Samus never actually fought like Samus arguments". Ike is still on the heavy and slow side, so I could still see him working. I agree that he is a little bit of a minor character, but his mii costume as well as that Castle Siege general getting a change in armor color for no appearant reason gives me a little bit of hope.

 

[NessSaysOkay]

Interesting thing to note here is the list of all the scrap characters in all the smash games (is in/unsure/is not in)

Smash 64
Bowser
King dedede
Mewtwo
Marth

Melee
Takamaru
Mach Rider
Banjo and Kazooie
James Bond
Ayumi Tachibana
Lucas
Solid Snake
Sonic
Wario
Balloon Fighter
the player character from Urban Champion
Bubbles
Excitebiker

Brawl
Dixie Kong
Dr. Mario
Roy
Mewtwo
toon zelda/Toon Sheik?
Pac-Man
Villager
Geno
Mii
Blastoise
Krystal
Plusle and Minun

Smash4
Ice Climbers
Rhythm Heaven character
Takamaru
Chrom
Heihachi Mishima

so ya all scrap smash 64 characters are here
also my god melee had alot of scrap character and smash 4 didnt have much

did any of the unsure got deco?

Not to be picky but it should be noted not a ton of these are scrapped. There are 3 levels
Considered:The idea was had for a bit, never nessicarily actively planned or anything, just a thought (p sure all the melee ones besides Wario as well as Blastoise Villager Mii Pac-Man.). Planned means they were planned for the game, actually going to happen, at one point (probably Marth Mewtwo Dedede Geno Heihaci Takamaru, also Geno was planned for Smash 4 as well.). Scrapped means they were gonna be in enough to be in the code or "super close to getting in" (Bowser and Wario, both would be THE next char if they could add one more non clone, the forbidden 7 aka Plusle Minun Dr. Mario Dixie Mewtwo Roy Toon Zelda Toon Sheik, Chrom Chorus Kids Ice Climbers Chorus Kids who for the record, have a good chance of just being a Rhythm Heaven char, the datamine only says Rhythm Heaven, and if you look up Rhythm Heaven the DS game, simply called Rhythm Heaven/Paradise out of Japan, has them on the cover, so I think they just assumed. This is further supported by the fact they are called Chorus Men instead of Kids.).

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Yeesh.

Now people are gonna ask that you can permanently set hazards on specific stages.

Maybe. There's a pretty exhaustive analysis on this subject in the thread i linked in my last post.

Imo there should be different 'threat level' associated with hazards. Take the platform in Smashville vs Ridley in Pyroshpere... clearly not the same level of danger here.

Let's just hope it gets sorted out for tournaments before Ultimate.

 

[Zinith]

I think the people who determine the legality of stages are actively trying to cut the number down just for the sake of cutting it down...

 

[Deleted member]

I really do not want to be a sour jerk, but Black Knight is not that likely.
He is not highly requested, he is not old, and there are other Fire Emblem characters that outclass his chances.

Black Knight would be a really cool boss though. His design screams a boss.

 

[Misery Brick]

My only hang-up about getting the Black Knight as an Ike echo, is given we would have four characters based off of different fighters from the same series.
Then again Zelda literally has three Links with minor changes between each one of them, alongside Ganondorf who's a semiclone so I guess it doesn't matter too much. All I'd hope for, outside of weight and movement, that he feels unique enough with a few normals or specials. At the very least taunts, idle, and victory animations would add more flair to him.
Edit: I'd totally be down for him to be a boss in Spirits or whatever the new mode is supposed to be.

 

[Arcanir]

I think the fact that the Black Knight is covered in heavy armor makes it so that he can't be an echo fighter or anyone.

Yeah, I know his speed stat is high, but have you seen him in the PoR and RD cutscenes? He shakes the ground with every step. He deserves to be a tank, not a bruiser like Ike.

Moreover, I feel that he's a fairly minor choice for an echo anyways.

In gameplay he is, but cutscenes?

He moves pretty smoothly for a guy in full armor.

Plus, it's not like Ike is that fast himself, in fact he's a far cry from his more speedy counterpart in PoR.

 

[praline]

Who cares how many echo fighters we get? You literally can put them with the character they echo if it bothers you that much.

Every character that can have an echo should in my opinion.

I think the fact that the Black Knight is covered in heavy armor makes it so that he can't be an echo fighter or anyone.

Yeah, I know his speed stat is high, but have you seen him in the PoR and RD cutscenes? He shakes the ground with every step. He deserves to be a tank, not a bruiser like Ike.

Moreover, I feel that he's a fairly minor choice for an echo anyways.

He’d also be a bad choice cause he’d be OP. Only Ike could do any damage to him.

 

[Deleted member]

Every character that can have an echo should in my opinion.

Spiderman with Thunder Armads as an echo for Bayonetta?

Come on, lets make it happen.

He’d also be a bad choice cause he’d be OP. Only Ike could do any damage to him.

That logic is goofy.
Ganondorf is only hurt by light stuff like Link's Master Sword and light arrows.

Plus I am sure , and can vaporize the Black Knight. Plus can inhale and master that skill better than he can. There is evidence Kirby has infinite power and when he gets the fighter ability, he masters it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/4lt8a7/kirby_canonically_is_now_infinite/

 

[Onua]

A few things going for Black Knight rn
> Missing from Castle Siege and replaced by a random red knight
> Ikes Black Knight skin color has been edited and is different now
> Had a Mii Costume which required a model to make
> Story wise he was trained under Ikes father and the two are similar canon wise (sure animation are different but in game story they fight super similar and have the same style in the plot)
> Uses a recolored version of Ikes sword
> Clearly moves quickly in cutscenes so whatever
> FE lacks a villain, hes is the only villain from FE popular enough to justify a spot at all
> Would be insanely easy to add

 

[Will]

Who cares how many echo fighters we get?

Nobody.

He’d also be a bad choice cause he’d be OP. Only Ike could do any damage to him.

That type of No Limits Fallacy should forbid Ganondorf from being playable then, for he can only be damaged by the Master Sword.

 

[MaestroDavros]

I think the people who determine the legality of stages are actively trying to cut the number down just for the sake of cutting it down...

Truer words have never been spoken.

Well, there is a reason, and that is a disinterest in spending any real thought or time on choosing stages between each match. The idea is that, to paraphrase posts I've seen, "previous Smash games had small stage lists out of necessity, Ultimate will have a small stage list out of convenience".

 

[ZephyrZ]

He’d also be a bad choice cause he’d be OP. Only Ike could do any damage to him.

In his Radiant Dawn appearance, his armor is cracked so other weapons can still damage him. He's also playable in FE:Heroes. And on top of that, how much as Smash really cared about staying true to power levels anyway? There is no reason Villager should be brawling with a literal goddess and demon king, but it still happens and sometimes the villager comes out on top.

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: Gruntilda Winkybunion

Spoiler: Dry_Gruntilda

Spoiler: Game Over_Gruntilda

Spoiler: Pakky's dream Reboot on Switch Gruntilda

So, yeah I want Banjo and Kazooie as the last BIG blow out character.... and then a reboot of the whole series on Switch and Xbox ONE...

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Lateness on this reply; I was out walking.

I added a meme, that's enough.

But seriously, I'm not interested at all about having debates and discussing the same "Bandana Dee is generic, boring, ugly, unimportant, filler" things I discussed years ago. Smash 4 made me realize how useless speculation and debates full of hate are, the final results of the game will be the same no matter what and if a controversial character gets in almost everybody, including haters, will act like the character was always a great or obvious choice.

I'm just here for leaks, jokes and positive things about the characters I like.
If you dislike Bandana Dee, you can visit the character thread to know more about him and if you still don't like it, eh, I don't really care much, that will not change if he is in or not haha, it's Sakurai's decision.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way...

Well, you're right on one thing; the fact that discussion is not going to change anything. At the end of the day, Sakurai and other producers have already finalized who's on this roster, and that's that. I'll also agree that a lot of personal investment can get caught up into this, which is why over the past 10 years, while I have many characters I would love to see make it in, I've thrown personal investment out the window in most discussions like this and save personal investments for "well, this would be a cool idea" discussions, which I think those are absolutely underrated in speculation.

However, I wouldn't say discussions are pointless. I've been around since Brawl speculation, and your post made me reflect on that. Did me talking about characters on a forum change anything? Absolutely not, but I've met so many wonderful people that I don't regret from it. Thanks to Brawl? I've met my partner, a few of my other best friends, and at least a dozen people I still keep in touch with on a weekly basis to this day. Smash 4? Very similar; I met quite a few people that I stick with to this day. Not as many people as Brawl, but I ended up becoming on the Writing Team of the website due to the game. Smash Ultimate? Even with the game not released yet, I've been connecting with people left and right, as the Content Manager of the Writing Team. I love it. I've been reconnecting with a lot of friends from the Smash 4 era and even the Brawl era too.

Getting involved in community discussion, and the community as a whole, is absolutely something I don't regret, personally. I can't speak for you, but I've made a lot of friends & acquaintances and learned a lot. If I tagged them all, I'm sure I'd either hit some tag limit or they'd all be annoyed. There's definitely a dark side to it on the glass half empty (Getting too invested and dealing with frustrating discussions, absolutely), but there's also the glass half full.

Let me preface this paragraph by saying that I agree that most discussions on BWD are boring, exhaustive, and very much the same, and while this discussion definitely had some negativity/same-bantering surrounding it, I think Amazing Ampharos Johnknight1 StormC and Scoliosis Jones all brought up different perspectives that were all awesome to read. None of them got hostile, and it's all stuff that's interesting to talk about. They were just trying to get people to look at the topics from different angles, and Johnknight1 even circled back to be more positive about the character (along w/ myself, when we compared BWD to all of the characters around his time), while StormC stayed bright and cheery over the series the whole time. It even gave me a lot of different angles to look at from the topic next time it's discussed. Same-bantering is not really in my interest either, hearing the same stuff like "golden sun is dead" or "bandana waddle dee is boring" gets to an exhaustive point where I roll my eyes and go "tell me something I don't know" but hearing people at least back up their argument with more weight, instead of mouth piecing what twenty other people have said word for word, is a breath of fresh air.

If you want to see more of a positive environment on discussions, be the change you want to see. I think you can, personally. If you're just here for the leaks and all that jazz, enjoy the ride anyways, and I hope you've been enjoying the parts of the community you've gotten involved with. For me? What can I say? I like meeting people.

If you want to continue this chat, my DM's here are always open.

---

anyways, now to check what's actually going on

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Planned means they were planned for the game, actually going to happen, at one point (probably Marth Mewtwo Dedede Geno Heihaci Takamaru, also Geno was planned for Smash 4 as well.). Scrapped means they were gonna be in enough to be in the code or "super close to getting in" (Bowser and Wario, both would be THE next char if they could add one more non clone, the forbidden 7 aka Plusle Minun Dr. Mario Dixie Mewtwo Roy Toon Zelda Toon Sheik, Chrom Chorus Kids Ice Climbers Chorus Kids who for the record, have a good chance of just being a Rhythm Heaven char, the datamine only says Rhythm Heaven, and if you look up Rhythm Heaven the DS game, simply called Rhythm Heaven/Paradise out of Japan, has them on the cover, so I think they just assumed. This is further supported by the fact they are called Chorus Men instead of Kids.).

Takamaru and Heihachi were never planned, especially with Takamaru please stop spreading the misinformation that he was; Takamaru was just considered for Smash 4 "for a moment" and then immediately passed over because of popularity concerns, while Heihachi was also just a considered character who never made it to actual planning stages.

 

[praline]

In his Radiant Dawn appearance, his armor is cracked so other weapons can still damage him. He's also playable in FE:Heroes. And on top of that, how much as Smash really cared about staying true to power levels anyway? There is no reason Villager should be brawling with a literal goddess and demon king, but it still happens and sometimes the villager comes out on top.

That type of No Limits Fallacy should forbid Ganondorf from being playable then, for he can only be damaged by the Master Sword.

Huh... it’s almost like I was making a joke.

 

[joshoctober16]

Interesting thing to note here is the list of all the scrap characters in all the smash games (is in/unsure/is not in)

---Smash 64---

---Scrapped---
Bowser
King dedede
Mewtwo
Marth


---Melee---

---Considered---
Takamaru
Mach Rider
Banjo and Kazooie
James Bond
Ayumi Tachibana
Solid Snake
Sonic
Balloon Fighter
the player character from Urban Champion
Bubbles
Excitebiker

---Planned---
Wario
Lucas


---Brawl---

---Scrapped---
Dixie Kong
Dr. Mario
Roy
Mewtwo
toon zelda/Toon Sheik?
Plusle and Minun

---Considered---
Pac-Man
Villager
Geno
Mii
Blastoise
Krystal


---Smash4---

---Scrapped---
Ice Climbers
Rhythm Heaven character/Chorus Men

---Considered---
Takamaru
Chrom
Heihachi Mishima


Updated and fixes

 

[Will]

A few things going for Black Knight rn
> Missing from Castle Siege and replaced by a random red knight

Looks like it's drilling time!

We've said this about a hundred times within the past 24 hours. The knight in the background was never Zelgius. Not in Brawl. Not in 4. Not now. Not ever. It's just a red general unit, nothing more nothing less. It's easy to get confused when you can't tell colors in such a dark part of the stage way in the background, but we've already debunked this claim so many times it's killing my brain cells.

Huh... it’s almost like I was making a joke.

So was I. I VS debating is my hobby.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Huh... it’s almost like I was making a joke.

There are people who make arguments like that all the time, though. It's really hard to tell sometimes. I couldn't tell you how many arguments I was in during Smash 4 speculation about if Palutena would be OP or not.

 

[joshoctober16]

Not to be picky but it should be noted not a ton of these are scrapped. There are 3 levels
Considered:The idea was had for a bit, never nessicarily actively planned or anything, just a thought (p sure all the melee ones besides Wario as well as Blastoise Villager Mii Pac-Man.). Planned means they were planned for the game, actually going to happen, at one point (probably Marth Mewtwo Dedede Geno Heihaci Takamaru, also Geno was planned for Smash 4 as well.). Scrapped means they were gonna be in enough to be in the code or "super close to getting in" (Bowser and Wario, both would be THE next char if they could add one more non clone, the forbidden 7 aka Plusle Minun Dr. Mario Dixie Mewtwo Roy Toon Zelda Toon Sheik, Chrom Chorus Kids Ice Climbers Chorus Kids who for the record, have a good chance of just being a Rhythm Heaven char, the datamine only says Rhythm Heaven, and if you look up Rhythm Heaven the DS game, simply called Rhythm Heaven/Paradise out of Japan, has them on the cover, so I think they just assumed. This is further supported by the fact they are called Chorus Men instead of Kids.).

i updated it base on this but.. man is it hard to read what you said , there are no spaces or breaks but whatever i did it anyways lol

 

[Misery Brick]

Who cares how many echo fighters we get? You literally can put them with the character they echo if it bothers you that much.

Every character that can have an echo should in my opinion.

I don't hate the idea of getting echoes, like Sakurai said they're basically desserts to the main course which I agree with. It's just seeing Chrom and other semi-clones, I wouldn't be crazy about BK and other echoes being 1:1 with their original counterparts moveset and appearance wise. (Like looking at Lucina, just give her the idle stance from Awakening at the very least.)
I , like a good majority here, prefer to see more unique attributes among the characters. Even if not, I'm still going to be trying out characters like Dark Samus and Daisy regardless of the fact. One of my mains is an Echo Fighter, so I'm perfectly fine with them.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I have this feeling that the "changing the knight's color" thing is probably just something we're looking into a bit too much.

Though I do wonder how customization on the Mii's will be this time around.

 

[Zinith]

There are people who make arguments like that all the time, though. It's really hard to tell sometimes. I couldn't tell you how many arguments I was in during Smash 4 speculation about if Palutena would be OP or not.

It becomes a collective "Poe"

 

[Thirdkoopa]

There are people who make arguments like that all the time, though. It's really hard to tell sometimes. I couldn't tell you how many arguments I was in during Smash 4 speculation about if Palutena would be OP or not.

she was so OP that she ended up being one of the least useful characters on the roster!

sorry, I have a sick sense of humor sometimes

 

[joshoctober16]

Spoiler: Gruntilda Winkybunion

Spoiler: Dry_Gruntilda

Spoiler: Game Over_Gruntilda

Spoiler: Pakky's dream Reboot on Switch Gruntilda

So, yeah I want Banjo and Kazooie as the last BIG blow out character.... and then a reboot of the whole series on Switch and Xbox ONE...

what is the last one from? never herd or seen it from? im confused and lost

 

[Starbound]

I'm going to be a bit gutsy and throw out the following predictions for the next few months:

- August: We won't get anything new in the next 10 days or so.
- September: We'll get a single trailer released ala Robin/Lucina's trailer unattached from any direct. Given this, the reveal will be for a unique newcomer and an echo from the same series (the echo does not have to echo the simutaneously announced character, but it certainly could). There are two options I see as front runners for this: Skull Kid/Impa or Isaac/Felix, with my prediction being for the golden boys.
- October: Smash Direct again, focusing on Spirits mode. We get two trailers, bookending the direct, and two echoes. My predictions are Incineroar starting the direct, Isabelle and Ken as echoes and Banjo-Kazooie ending the direct. This is the full reveal of the base game's cast, meaning we get a total of 14 newcomers, broken down into 7 uniques and 7 echoes.
- Late November/Early December: General Nintendo Direct on early 2019 release dates, including Smash DLC. Our first DLC character is revealed to be Spring Man with a Springtron echo. They will be a free download to anyone who buys an annual Nintendo Switch Online membership before January 31st 2019, and will be available in March 2019.

 

[L9999]

We just had two Bayos stall at EVO and you got the PS1+2 stages that are also easy to camp on...also pretty much any stage but those two specifically

Really? The EVO fiasco has nothing to do with stage legality, move on already, it is nothing new, watch M2K VS Vinnie.

Pokemon Stadium 1 is a counterpick stage that likely stays for the sake of variety, otherwise it is 5 stages. Many Melee players have expressed the stage would be much better if it had no transformations. I guess PS1 stayed legal in Brawl as a CP to ICs. Brawl had a more "liberal" stage list compared to modern standards, but PS1's issues were never camping strictly. PS2 has always been banned.

Camping also depends on MUs. Ex. circle camping Mac on BF with a mobile character, projectile characters on FD have no reason to approach, or timing out Kirby on any stage.

 

[Johnknight1]

I have this feeling that the "changing the knight's color" thing is probably just something we're looking into a bit too much.

Though I do wonder how customization on the Mii's will be this time around.

Please for the love of God

Just let them have one moveset that combines all the Custom Moves of past games

Along with one height/weight class only to make it easier to balance/not a nightmare for tournaments to use Mii Fighters.

PLEASE!!!!

 

[DarkFalcon]

I have this feeling that the "changing the knight's color" thing is probably just something we're looking into a bit too much.

Though I do wonder how customization on the Mii's will be this time around.

Entirely possible, but it's fun to talk about. Especially since it's a topic not normally brought up here.

 

[Roberk]

"Darn, I really hate an Echo who was somewhat requested during the ballot getting in."

I mean Black Knight won't be anything new gameplay wise but he looks pretty cool. Even if he's another blue haired guy under the armor. Free dessert is free dessert, if he's not taking away from anybody else I don't understand the problem. It's not like it's a disservice to BK, he canonically fights like Ike and Ike is already in the "heavyweight swordsman" archetype.

IMO he should totally be a boss in the Spirits mode though, it'll just make more people happier less pissed off over free dessert.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have this feeling that the "changing the knight's color" thing is probably just something we're looking into a bit too much.

Though I do wonder how customization on the Mii's will be this time around.

My guess which is optimism speaking is that it will be more options on the same window that lets you select a color. You'll pick your voice and special set there I'd presume. I think we all hope it's not some silly create a character nonsense again because that's just way too slow for tournament play.

 

[Will]

I'm going to be a bit gutsy and throw out the following predictions for the next few months:

- August: We won't get anything new in the next 10 days or so.
- September: We'll get a single trailer released ala Robin/Lucina's trailer unattached from any direct. Given this, the reveal will be for a unique newcomer and an echo from the same series (the echo does not have to echo the simutaneously announced character, but it certainly could). There are two options I see as front runners for this: Skull Kid/Impa or Isaac/Felix, with my prediction being for the golden boys.
- October: Smash Direct again, focusing on Spirits mode. We get two trailers, bookending the direct, and two echoes. My predictions are Incineroar starting the direct, Isabelle and Ken as echoes and Banjo-Kazooie ending the direct. This is the full reveal of the base game's cast, meaning we get a total of 14 newcomers, broken down into 7 uniques and 7 echoes.
- Late November/Early December: General Nintendo Direct on early 2019 release dates, including Smash DLC. Our first DLC character is revealed to be Spring Man with a Springtron echo. They will be a free download to anyone who buys an annual Nintendo Switch Online membership before January 31st 2019, and will be available in March 2019.

So I take it you don't believe in the Geno dream but Banjo is likely?

 

[Johnknight1]

"Darn, I really hate an Echo who was somewhat requested during the ballot getting in."

I mean Black Knight won't be anything new gameplay wise but he looks pretty cool. Even if he's another blue haired guy under the armor. Free dessert is free dessert, if he's not taking away from anybody else I don't understand the problem. It's not like it's a disservice to BK, he canonically fights like Ike and Ike is already in the "heavyweight swordsman" archetype.

IMO he should totally be a boss in the Spirits mode though, it'll just make more people happier less pissed off over free dessert.

Who says a character can't be a boss and playable?

Would be sick to see the boss forms of Ridley and Meta Ridley from Brawl/Smash 4 return in Spirits and Boss Rush mode.