Silver Tongue: Move Analysis Changes and Tips

[Sinister Slush]

This will be the thread to hold most or all of Yoshi's changes. From the character itself, to mechanics and moves.

- Patch 1.0.4
- Slightly slower start-up on Neutral B
- Neutral B has less range, very slight
- Slightly more ending lag on Dash Attack
- Slightly more landing lag on Dair
- Yoshi can no longer do slope shenanigans with Down B by sliding off them


- Damage For Moves

Spoiler

Brawl Jab 1/2: 3% and 6%
Smash 4 Jab 1/2: 3% 4%
Damage Difference: 2% less for 2nd Jab


Brawl Up-Smash: 16%, fully charged 22%
Smash 4 Up-Smash: 12% for sourspot behind him, 14% on Regular (infront and above him), fully charged 19-20%, 16% behind him
Damage Difference: 4% loss for weak hit, 2% loss On sweetspot.


Brawl Forward-Smash: 16%
Smash 4 Forward-Smash: 13% sourspot, 14% normal hit 15.5% sweetspot 19% sourspot charged 21% sweetspot charged
Damage Difference: 1% less all around


Brawl Down-Smash: First hit 14% and second hit 13% (fully charged 19% for first hit and second hit 18%)
Smash 4 Down-Smash: 10% each hit tip/sourspot, 12% each hit sweetspot; Charged - 14% per hit sourspot, 16% per hit sweetspot
Damage Difference: 3-4% less.


Brawl Neutral-Air: 12~9~6%
Smash 4 Neutral-Air: 10 early hitbox, 7% then 5% late hitbox
Damage Difference: 2% less for Clean hit and 1% less for late hit


Brawl Up-Air: 13%
Smash 4 Up-Air: 12%
Damage Difference: 1% Less


Brawl Forward-Air: 16% (sourspot) 15% (sweetspot)
Smash 4 Forward-Air: 14% Spike/Sweetspot 15% KO/Sourspot
Damage Difference: 1-2% less for what we have so far.


Brawl Back-Air: 4% first hit, 3% second hit, 3% third hit, 4% last hit
Smash 4 Back-Air: 2.5% first hit, 2.5% second hit, 5% third hit/finisher
Damage Difference: Lost 3% overrall but 3rd hit being KO move and 1% more than one of Brawl's 4% hits along with first and second hit being a spike.


Brawl Down-Air: 33% if every hit landed and in middle of kicks.
Smash 4 Down-Air: 34% if every hit landed.
Damage Difference: 1% more


Brawl Up-tilt: 11% or 10% depending how you hit them with it.
Smash 4 Up-tilt: 7%
Damage Difference: 4% all together from what's shown so far.


Brawl Forward-tilt: Angled Up 10% Regular 9% down 8%
Smash 4 Forward-tilt: Angeled Up/Down 8% regular 7%
Damage Difference: 2% loss


Brawl Down-tilt: 10% if hit by middle of tail, 5% if the tip/sourspot
Smash 4 Down-tilt: 5% 4% if hit with tip
Damage Difference: 5% damage cut in half


Brawl Dash Attack: 9% sweetspot 7% sourspot
Smash 4 Dash Attack: 9% sweetspot 6% Sourspot
Damage Difference: 1% less for sourspot.


Brawl Neutral B : 7%
Smash 4 Neutral B: 7%
Damage Difference: Unchanged


Brawl Side-B: 4% Slow Speed 12% Max Speed
Smash 4 : 4% Slow Speed, 6-8% as reaching max speed, 9% Max Speed
Damage Difference: No change from no speed revved up, but 3% less from Maximum Speed.


Brawl Up-B: 9% sometimes 8%
Smash 4 Up-B: 6% sometimes 5%
Damage Difference: 3% less


Brawl Down-B: 19%
Smash 4 Down-B: 4/15% if both hits connect
Damage Difference: No Change


Brawl Up-Throw: 5%
Smash 4 Up-Throw: 5%
Damage Difference: No change


Brawl Forward/Back-Throw: 7%
Smash 4 Forward/Back-Throw: 7%
Damage Difference: No change


Brawl Down-Throw: 4%
Smash 4 Down-Throw: 4%
Damage Difference: No Change


Brawl Stage Get up Attack: 6% Front Get up attack, 6% Back Get up Attack
Smash 4 Stage Get up Attack: 8% unsure of front (being on belly get up attack) or back one and no idea which one it is.
Damage Difference: 2% for one hit, if both somehow hit 4% increase

Brawl Ledge Get up Attack: 6%, slow get up attack past 100%, 12%
Smash 4 Ledge Get up Attack: 6% (no slow get up anymore)
Damage Difference: None, but no more slow get up attack so 12% loss

Attack Tips (if too lazy to scroll through moves and read)

Spoiler

Double Jump still has Armor.

Jab to Up smash works quite a bit depending on percent and maybe character.

Egg lay lasts longer the more % they have, so try to get them offstage with it and maybe it'll kill if they're above 90%

Egg roll loses duration if you hit somebody.

• While rolling: 6-9%
• While airborne (either rolling off the stage or jumping): 7-8% (it’s 8% unless you jump with very low momentum)
• Bounce (ascending): 5%
• Descending (either by starting the move midair, after jumping with low momentum, or after bouncing): 4%

Egg Roll is faster and can jump while in eggroll, also no freefall animation if you fall offstage or use it in the air accidentally. No idea on momentum cancelling yet, but just like Brawl you virtually go nowhere if trying to move in the air. Can stay on edge of either platforms or stages and perform a new thing we've called for now, Egg Shot

Egg rolls priority was probably hit pretty hard since it can't clank with most projectiles from what I've seen but can still clank with Diddy Banana.

Down throw to Double U-tilt is possible. No idea on rest of throws as of yet.

Can combo with U-tilt two or possibly even three times, depending on weight of character, into an Up smash.

Ftilt does more damage when angling up/down by 1%

Up smash not only looks like Fox's, it kills early like it too along with huge range.

Fsmash tilted down does nothing and is basically regular Fsmash. Fsmash tilted up still helps.

F-air has almost no cooldown on spam usage and kills early.

B-air is not only a kill move now, but the first and second hit it can spike enemies.

Double Jab and Dash attack is a good follow up if they don't react.

If you hit Greninja's down-B (substitute counter) with Yoshi's down-B, both attacks will hit but Yoshi's down-B will win.

Jump Out of Shield, we can do that so remember after the past decade of being unable to be like other characters.

Jumping OoS is nice, but don't forget we can also Up smash and Up B out of Shield now!

Grab Release Options (So far): Dash Attack on Sheik (New)
Forward Air offstage on ROB (New)

Fthrow into Dash attack works at low %'s against most characters
Dthrow into the previously mentioned double/triple Utilt into maybe an Uair if they don't react to it

Landing Lag: Nair 11 Frames (+2 Nerf from Brawl's 9)
Fair 17 Frames (+1 Nerf from Brawl's 16)
Uair 14 Frames (No Change from Brawl)
Bair 19 Frames (+10 Nerf from Brawl's 9) Holy crap
Dair 24 Frames (No Change from Brawl)

With something found back in the Demo (still in Released game) where airdodging and using an aerial with the least amount of lag, you can shield quicker than the 22 frames from airdodging into the ground. For this our best move to use after airdodge is Nair.

- Custom Moves

Credit to Ninjalink for explanations for them all.

- Model

Brawl

Smash 4

Most obvious change is his Model being brighter.​

- He stands upright

My Spine is finally fixed

While people think it's not much of a change, it was quite a big issue in Brawl cause on numerous different occasions we'd get hit from moves we shouldn't be hit by, mostly because of his posture and giant nose. Giant nose is still there, but now he doesn't have his back bent downward slightly while basically telling his enemy to punch him in the snout.

His cheeks also puff in and out, just a cute little thing.​

- Double Jump

/ or
Yoshi's New Double Jump happens Immediately and no longer dips down, because of the change things like DR using items to cancel Double jump and Double jump cancelling is no more for us.

Spoiler

Double Jumps armor was buffed to last even while the ascending from DJ has ended already, nothing on how long it lasts though as of yet.​

- Shield

Yoshi Can Jump Out Of Shield

Not too big of a change, but a nice touch. Any color you choose his shield will have different colored dots like it should've been since Smash 64.

Spoiler

Yoshi enters and exits his egg faster than Brawl's. Even throwing out a move almost immediately, no more 17 frames of Shield drop.​

- New Jab Finisher

They changed his second jab to a swinging kick
​

- Up Smash

Spoiler

USmash has been changed to a backflip kinda like fox. Still retains invincibility for the feet only.

​

- Neutral B

Spoiler

Appears to be the same for all characters. They all fall fast. Along with them even mashing out and still taking awhile to get out of it.
Egg lay keeps them in the egg longer and they no longer have invincibility when they exit the egg.

​

- Side B

Yoshi can hop while in his Egg Roll special now.

Spoiler

Yoshi's Egg Roll is a lot faster and his turning is sharper. He also does not go into freefall animation anymore if he goes off a platform/ledge.

​

- Side Dish for Side-B

Credit to Slice for making the Video.
It appears we're able to have a high jump for egg roll, and be able to shoot like a bullet when holding no direction while at the edge of a platform of the stage.
​

- Up B

Spoiler

Most noticeable is the rainbow trail with the eggs now and they seem to fall faster after thrown.

Spoiler

While in the air Yoshi still gets his hops that he had in Brawl thankfully along with being able to maneuver left/right a considerable amount during the egg toss animation. That gives him a lot more mobility in the air.
But in return for all the buffs to egg toss he only gets 2 or 3 hops now.

More buffs, he throw smore eggs in under a few seconds compared to Brawl, also being able to have them drop down further as well. Speed of eggs have also increased.

​

- Forward Air

Spoiler

New fast windup. Can possibly continue Jab Locks
​

- Back Air

Spoiler

Yoshi's B-air got a huge buff and nerf at the same time, losing one hit but becoming a KO move and spiking with the first/second hit while third is the killing hit.
Nerf being the huge amount of Landing lag.

Spoiler

​

- Down Air

Spoiler

Dair Destroys shields and with DI being out, we can hit with almost every hit.

​

- Dash Attack

Spoiler

Yoshi now throws out his foot like Fox but falls over. Has tremendous knockback even at low percent.
He lands on his butt tho, how silly.

​

Discuss Yoshi's Moveset and other things here.
Everyone help me out with the thread if possible, it'd be a real help for our community that'll most likely grow after APEX.

 

[Lukingordex]

It's probably just me, but I think they made yoshi smaller than he was in the past smash games, will he have less weight?

I hope not

 

[Egg.]

Oops, I didn't realize you were already doing something like this until I already uploaded all the photos! Might as well not let them go to waste so this will be my contribution: these are all of the moves I could find that have been showcased so far.

EDIT: Now including his brand new Usmash! That ain't Falco
It should also be noted that fair has been shown at this point, I just haven't posted it yet.

Random

Spoiler

Idle

Crouch

Ground attacks

Spoiler

Jab

Dash attack (3DS)

Ftilt

Utilt

Not shown yet: Dtilt

Aerial attacks

Spoiler

Nair (3DS)

Uair (3DS)

Bair

Dair

Not shown yet: Fair

Smash Attacks

Spoiler

Usmash (3DS)

Fsmash (3DS)

Dsmash

Specials

Spoiler

Neutral

Side

Up

Down

 

[Sinister Slush]

I should've pointed out the OP has changes to Yoshi so far compared to Brawl and Smash 4.
Thanks for getting the rest of his moves, computer is old and can barely do HD without lagging a second or two every 4 seconds. So getting the screenshots I have in my post took a bit more time than it should've.

 

[FlynnCL]

Yeah, he falls like a rock.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I need to somehow learn how to make gifs cause what I point out for changes in my first post could make more sense if it was more than just an image.
Mostly B-air and U-tilt.

 

[Egg.]

Sorry, should've read the OP more carefully! I was too caught up in the hype to be thinking straight...

Also, I made the gifs for you to use. I usually use makeagif or gifsforum.com to make them.

Bair

Utilt (1/2 speed)

EDIT: Utilt (full speed)

 

[Nikes]

Not new moves, but I found a couple more screenshots of him:
Spotdodge: https://www.flickr.com/photos/48280274@N02/13729409713/in/set-72157643678092364
Run: https://www.flickr.com/photos/48280274@N02/13729348285/in/set-72157643678092364 (Was hoping this would change to a sports style run, oh well)
Jab 1 (corrected): https://www.flickr.com/photos/48280274@N02/13729485723/in/set-72157643678092364
(Image links instead of actual images cause I can't get the image link off flickr >.>)

Source of photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/48280274@N02/sets/72157643678092364/

 

[Sinister Slush]

All those things have been shown already while the Jab 2 you're posting is Jab 1.

Edit: nvm on the spotdodge part, it was Yoshi F-tilt ending animation when dodging Zelda phantom strike. But no way they would've changed spotdodge for characters unless it's something like D3's or R.O.B.'s

 

[Drazile]

I need to somehow learn how to make gifs cause what I point out for changes in my first post could make more sense if it was more than just an image.
Mostly B-air and U-tilt.

Gifcam is a useful tool.

 

[CourageHound]

If egg lay does in fact make opponents drop like a rock, then it can be potentially really dangerous to confront Yoshi offstage recklessly :3

 

[Lukingordex]

I honestly think the person using Mario just used fastfall while inside the egg .-.

I really hope i'm wrong

 

[tfhkYOSHI]

Is it just me, or is Yoshi's side dodge faster than in Brawl? Or maybe it's just because the game itself is faster...

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you mean Roll, Egg. made some gifs to try and compare. If anything, it seems like it covers more distance rather than it being faster.

 

[Egg.]

Yeah, I guess I can put them here also for reference.

100% speed

Spoiler

50% speed

Spoiler

And again, we can note that he seems to enter and exit shield just as fast as every other character now, which should definitely improve our defensive abilities. No sign of jumping out of shield yet, but honestly I never really did that regardless of who I was using!

 

[gamer8]

Dsmash

Up

[/collapse]

Awww, serious/mad Yoshi looks too cute.

 

[Yikarur]

You guys are awesome.
Teach me how to make this gifs ,_,

 

[Sinister Slush]

Something I thought about before sleeping hours ago.
They showed his moves but they didn't show many of them hitting people outside of Bair Neutral b Dsmash and Dash attack. With most of them being changed from the looks of it.

Dunno if I shud finish this post or add it to the OP (guess I'll do it afterwards) but now that I think about it, maybe the changes to all of Yoshi's moves they gave to him is more power and hitstun. Dair, as pointed out in the thread up top, has an ending animation which could possible mean a spike or something similar to yoshi changing his animation at the end of his Bair.
Or his U-tilt having damage/hitstun at the end of it maybe like Snake's Utilt but not as powerful, range, and speed of course. But again with that slight animation change at the end it begs the question.

Just a thought.

 

[Nikes]

Having a Dair that sends them down like a weaker meteor sounds pretty realistic and would be a good asset to have. Sakurai's fantastic at teasing us like this, leaving us to speculate.
I'm still hoping they give egg roll a buff, like more armor or it has at least a little aerial momentum like Melee's, traveling at a downwards diagonal angle. No special fall would be really nice too. (I feel like I've already talked about this somewhere recently :s)

 

[Yikarur]

btw don't expect any buffs to the neutral B.
The scene is clearly made up to make it look like it can kill opponent. This was never the case and this will never be the case.
If you do egg lay in SSB64, Melee or Brawl you can achive an kill by controlling the opponent exactly like in the video. You can even fast fall while you're in the egg so don't jump to any conclusions.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's wishful thinking since they're changing a lot of mechanics in this game, so who knows what they've changed with Yoshi since they didn't show all that much.

 

[SmashShadow]

I wonder if the speed of the egg lay drop will be based on percentage.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That'd be nice.
Added another thing. While U-tilt is shown in it, I might as well mention something.

It looks like it came out faster than Brawl's U-tilt. Dunno if the 3DS smash run for Smash4 has a power up that makes moves go faster or not, didn't pay much attention to that mode lol.

 

[Superyoshiom]

If egg lay really was as buffed as it seems, I'll be using Yoshi a lot more.

 

[Klaww]

If egg lay really was as buffed as it seems, I'll be using Yoshi a lot more.

I'm curious to see what kind of custom moves you can put on neutral-B. One of them has to be good, right?

Come to think of it, I'm curious to see all of Yoshi's custom moves...

I don't care if they do end up being banned from tournaments, they just seem interesting. Having Jigglypuff's roll as a side-B would probably just be fun to fool around with regardless.

 

[Thunderfang747]

I honestly think the person using Mario just used fastfall while inside the egg .-.

I really hope i'm wrong

Probably this unfortunately. These trailers are always shown off to make the highlighted character look powerful, the Mario probably fast fell and wasn't mashing to escape the egg at all. Regardless, nice analysis OP.

 

[ProjectAngel]

Something that sticks out to me is that Yoshi's tail seems to stretch out a bit longer in some of his attacks. Increase in range, maybe?

 

[Sinister Slush]

So apparently Nintendo released another 212 screenshots for the last 5 new characters. Watched entire video just in case Yoshi popped up in some of them. He only appeared in like 4 or 5 of them, not including his bit in the video of course.

But even then, his part only showed, like the other 4/5, him taunting, standing, on the ledge, or egg throwing. Honestly nothing.... outside of one thing I noticed which I threw in the first post.

At this point and time, I honestly think Nintendo is still hiding quite a bit with Yoshi. ZSS Sheik and Charizard are veterans with a change here or there, while Greninja is a newcomer with almost everything being shown already.

Yoshi has been kept in the dark for awhile since his direct thing lasted not even 40 seconds while the other 4 lasted 2 or 3 times longer.
Charizard Sheik and ZSS basically being from brawl so almost exact moveset while any moves that've been changed they've shown already, and since Charizard's reveal was basically in Greninja's reveal, most of his stuff was shown too. So almost everything has been revealed for the other 4 in screenshots from previously that was linked in the 100 or so images a week back I believe and now these 212 screenshots, or video already.

 

[Klaww]

So Yoshi now has a nicer pooping face.

10/10.

It kinda looks like that cloud is lifting the egg away. Custom move maybe?

Maybe not. I love the style of those clouds though. The stars on his Down-B also look pretty nice.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Couldn't help but notice this picture.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/25792657@N00/13892345511/in/set-72157644096275264

So, this is pretty much a "BOB-OMB BLEW UP IN MY MOUTH" face. **** me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty certain yoshi's egg lay can finally eat items now. Not sure how helpful this will be. If it recovers quick enough it would be pretty neat to be able to snatch up diddy's banana's off the ground with it without having to slow down to a walk, or commit to a dash attack.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It looks more like Yoshi having someone in his mouth. Grab I mean, but who knows since it's just a screenshot for now. Most of Yoshi's stuff that's been revealed so far is people speculating what can be changed with him since they didn't show much in both the video for him and in the screenshots.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I don't personally think he's eating someone. Just for his facial expression alone. LOL. He never really made such a ridiculous facial expression in brawl, except maybe during mid down-throw. It looks very akin to Daydayday's or Kirby's "ATE A BOMB" face, where there cheeks puff out and eyes bug out, but who knows.

 

[Sinister Slush]

So Yoshi now has a nicer pooping face.

10/10.

It kinda looks like that cloud is lifting the egg away. Custom move maybe?

Maybe not. I love the style of those clouds though. The stars on his Down-B also look pretty nice.

Doubt the egglay is a custom move thing, like Kirby's swallow being air Yoshi tongue would prolly be pushing away like an attack or something like in Brawl you can't swallow Multi-man brawl enemies so you just knock them away.

What confuses me is that cloud there, honestly thought it was part of the stage but then realized Space so ya lol. Most likely just a silly effect to add in for 3DS version.

Couldn't help but notice this picture.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/25792657@N00/13892345511/in/set-72157644096275264

So, this is pretty much a "BOB-OMB BLEW UP IN MY MOUTH" face. **** me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty certain yoshi's egg lay can finally eat items now.

Forgot to mention that it'd be impossible for Yoshi to eat the items since, well, they're on the ground. His tongue doesn't reach down there.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Forgot to mention that it'd be impossible for Yoshi to eat the items since, well, they're on the ground. His tongue doesn't reach down there.

I don't get why you think it's completely impossible. If you've seen yoshi's grab hitbox it snags things FAR FAR under it as well. It was programmed like that to hit even short crouchers like Kirby and snake. Wario's bite "shouldn't" eat up things below him either, but it does all the same because lolsmash hitbox.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It didn't reach down there in Brawl, and no showing of it working in Smash 4 yet so doubt it will. Also the Hitbox for Wario being able to eat items is bigger than the normal hitbox for attacking players for some reason. Most likely the same for D3 and Kirby. Well, dunno about kirby since he's incredibly smaller

Also Yoshi's tongue doesn't hit people like snake or kirby when crouching. Hell, his dash grab completely whiffs Kirby when he's crouching.

Spoiler

As you can see from this, if Wario's smaller but bigger animation can get items. But Yoshi's smaller animation but bigger hitbox can't eat items. It obviously isn't working. Also the pink is for getting swallowed while the hitbox is like hitting Multi-man brawl/SSE enemies.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Also the Hitbox for Wario being able to eat items is bigger than the normal hitbox for attacking players for some reason. Most likely the same for D3 and Kirby. Well, dunno about kirby since he's incredibly smaller

Yea, exactly what I was thinking of. 2 seperate hitboxes for egglay, one for items, and one for the actual player portion. The reason other characters can and yoshi can't is because he doesn't have that mechanic in brawl.

and Yoshi's still capable of grabbing people under him. I don't mean specifically his tongue hitbox.

When he initiates a grab, i'm referring to the initial grab box thats around his body, that completely doesn't match where his actual mouth is. The actually tongue part is dinky, yeh. Also not even at the end of his tongue. :V
There's really nothing more to be said other then "I think it will happen based off of yoshi's goofy ass eyes" LOL. And just, it's such a long over due mechanic that I feel like he shoulda got. :T i'm not saying it as fact but yea. Just. It should be though.

 

[Klaww]

Doubt the egglay is a custom move thing, like Kirby's swallow being air Yoshi tongue would prolly be pushing away like an attack or something like in Brawl you can't swallow Multi-man brawl enemies so you just knock them away.

What confuses me is that cloud there, honestly thought it was part of the stage but then realized Space so ya lol. Most likely just a silly effect to add in for 3DS version.

When I watched the direct again, I realized that the cloud is actually just a part of his egg lay animation. I think the 3DS screenshot just made it look like the egg was rising because Yoshi was falling... Here's the same cloud on the Wii-U version though:

I also caught a frame of fat Yoshi so don't worry, it's better than ever:

 

[Sinister Slush]

Oh they added clouds after he swallows somebody. Ok then.

Spoiler

In glorious 1280x720 for desktop backgrounds

 

[SNEStalgic]

Here's something I found while watching the direct:
At 33:05, you can see that his double jump no longer makes that slight "J" shape. He just goes up.
Not sure if that was a change made from Brawl to Melee as I don't really play brawl, but, in Melee, it was pretty useful to instantly land on platforms, instantly turn around mid-dash, etc.

 

[Sol_Vent]

Yikes. How did I not notice this before?

So, take a look at Yoshi's intro in the Smash Direct.

When Yoshi exits the egg, he's facing right even though he was rolling left just before. This probably means that Yoshi will always be facing the same direction coming out of egg roll as when he started the move.

It doesn't seem like much, but that's kinda why I find it interesting. It's obviously deliberate, but why? What is the purpose of this change?