Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Teczer0]

When you first start using platforms it's like when you first learn not to approach first. Quick improved, but it soon gets figured out. Except it takes longer for them to catch on.

Oh, yea I know what you mean haha.

When I first started using sheik, I was dancing around on platforms too.

I actually started to change my style more when Amsah played at Pound 4. His play was some of the most inspiring I've seen and he made me realize that sheik is well a great character lol.

She can do a lot of things without just going for grabs, and he definitely taught me implicitly that the way I was playing wasn't the only way.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah it's easy to get into tunnel vision when your character has a lot of reward for landing a grab or similar. sheik's a good character for MUCH more than that, and you need to realize that when you're shaping your playstyle.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik's great because she's such a wonderfully complete character. And aside from her craptastic recovery that even a toddler could edgeguard or rack damage on, I never feel totally powerless against opponents with her. Except Ice Climbers. Because I'm beyond horrible at that MU.

 

[Ministry]

can someone give me the frames for sheiks up b, and fox/falco tech roll away

 

[Jolteon]

up+b cooldown: 100000 frames.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I like Yoshi's cause im an Utilt ***** and I think Sheik has better platform game than Fox.
Id take spacies to BF.

 

[gm jack]

I think BF and FoD are her best against fox, but I'd take DL64 over FoD against falco. I feel falcos that know how to use the varying heights of the platforms can abuse them as much as sheik.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I still think dreamland is falco's best stage. Regular fullhop lands perfectly on the top platform? Broken.... I don't think any character can challenge his mobility on that stage

 

[soap]

never had a huge problem with spacies jumping away on platforms.

what goes up, must come down. Just be patient.

 

[Kaffei]

Is it just me

or is Sheik the most fun character ever
sduiohfsadhfahdsfafa

 

[KirbyKaze]

Once you start hitting reverse weak nair > bair in tournament, you'll find her even more fun.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

never had a huge problem with spacies jumping away on platforms.

what goes up, must come down. Just be patient.

But you can't really challenge falco from below on his terms...

 

[soap]

you can bair around his dair if you aim for his face

uair trades


or you can bait out the dair and punish


I prefer chasing falco than the ones who are just all up in your nuts the whole game

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

uair and utilt trade but that doesn't win you anything. The other ones rely on you outsmarting him, in any of those the falco could just choose to not challenge you at all and you have to figure out how to get to him. Thats my biggest problem with dreamland, the positional game is really annoying if the falco plays patiently. No other character has the jump mobility to keep up with falco's platform abuse.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I find that Falcos that try to excessively use the platforms to escape are opening themselves up to lose exchanges with Sheik's massive fair & bair priority. Or they let me have a stronger counter-camp game because it gives me way more time to charge needles (which, despite being the inferior projectile, are still very disruptive). He also doesn't move with the same speed as Fox, so his platform camping never strikes me as seriously insurmountable a problem, broken dair or not just because he's easier to position on. It's not like Sheik's slow on platforms, either.

I've not seen this to be a serious issue to Sheik's well-being quite yet but it's possible every Falco I've ever played just attacks too much, which is certainly possible.






As a more general statement on the MU, I'm weird. I'd rather play a counter-fighting game, while looking for a way to establish a good spacing so I can attack him for lasers or close distance. If you exert pressure on Falco and avoid lasers well, you remove a lot of the frame advantage he relies on to win encounters. You also generally make him more antsy than if you try to outcamp him or something. I think the ledgecamp, super passive style is probably the biggest reason he's such a pain to some of us right now. I think the game has progressed to the point where it's a very realistic and reasonable goal for Falco to win most of the "on-shield" exchanges, and playing close to the ledge all the time exacerbate's both characters' recovery shortcomings.

I dunno. Playing super passively and constantly making bids for OHKOs seems kind of silly. It feels like you're just gambling.

.

 

[Kaffei]

Once you start hitting reverse weak nair > bair in tournament, you'll find her even more fun.

omfg who does that

so ****

 

[silentSWAG]

i like trading falcos dair with sheiks uair.
it keeps him above me.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

it's possible every Falco I've ever played just attacks too much, which is certainly possible.

This might be the case actually. I never had a problem with falco in that way until I played KirkQ who really abused it and did a really good camp game along side the ability to play the game outside of camping (unlike most people who camp a lot and then you hit them once and they dont know what to do, or what to do when they hit you). I've never really had that problem outside of KirkQ either (maybe frootloop).

I just think the ability for falco to have such a quickly accessible save zone is strong in any match-up, especially ones where the opponent would normally be able to poke that top platform on other stages.

 

[Kaffei]

BIG QUESTION PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

How good is D-smash for interrupt Spacies' approaches? Like, would it go under a Fox nair and hit them or something? It seems useful but I have no idea. When should I use D-smash?

 

[joejoe22802]

So my old controller was really worn in as far as the analog goes so it was easy to reverse needle without losing momentum. Any tips for me on a very fresh controller?

 

[Jolteon]

play sonic riders <_<

:king:

 

[soap]

BIG QUESTION PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

How good is D-smash for interrupt Spacies' approaches? Like, would it go under a Fox nair and hit them or something? It seems useful but I have no idea. When should I use D-smash?

in my experience falco's dair eats it up. It trades with fox nair alot. kk is always talking about some invincibility frame on the first hit. I think that might be true cuz sometimes I just get super crispy clean hits on aerials.

at medium to high percent, wavedash back so they miss, and dsmash is an okay tactic too.

 

[gm jack]

Sheiks front leg has a single from of invincibility as it hits for the first time (frame 5).

So while it should win if spaced correctly, it's quite a laggy move so I wouldn't get in the habit of throwing it out.

 

[Twix]

It seems to me every time I go to u-air a falco on a platform, his dair just ****s my day up and we don't even trade. I'm clearly doing something wrong, but I don't know what. :x



Also, EDIT: Another question I have is about Foxtrotting vs Dash Dancing. I saw a thread before that was talking about this slightly, but it's still a little confusing to me. I'm currently under the impression that (And correct me if I'm wrong) Sheik's dash dance is basically useless. Is there a way to know if I'm executing the Fox trot perfectly? Maybe someone can provide a video demonstrating this. Thanks in advance.

 

[gm jack]

It's not really worth letting falco get above you (unless you are comboing him). His dair is stupid levels of good to anything below him, so if you must challenge it, try to do so horizontally, with fair or bair.

Sheiks dd and foxtrot look very different. It's quite clear when you have done one or the other. To say the dd is useless is a bit far though. As per any dd, it allow finer control of your movement and spacing, so it has use. However, it's range is quite short due to her short dash animation, so it can't be used in the same manner as most dash dances. The best equivalent is probably dash forwards -> wd back, though fox trotting and dd still have their use.

Messing around with them is the best way to get a feel for how and when to use each of them.

 

[Kaffei]

o........ ok thanks guys =D

 

[joejoe22802]

So why don't people down smash more as an approach, especially during early game? It seems like most people think that other moves will lead to greater chains. But I don't think that really considers how easy it is to start the chain. Given that grabs are highly expected, I believe Downsmash could be used a lot more....Thoughts?

Also how do people feel about F-Smash as an edgeguard? Anyone have a good reason why this has fallen out of favor? Seems like it was used at least irregularly in really old school videos.

 

[Jolteon]

it's too laggy

 

[KirbyKaze]

Down smash is ****, it's just more situational than f-tilt so people avoid it.

 

[Metal Reeper]

What wins spacie's nair or sheik ftilt? If it trades is it worth try for? Or should I just DD or something else?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Trades being worth it depends on percent.

Sheik's f-tilt wins if you do it properly.

Movement-based evasion is sometimes better, but beating their move is often the easier one (dashing away requires more space & time than f-tilt).

 

[Kaffei]

KK, do you mind going a little in-depth about D-smash and B-air (besides edge guarding)
I'm kind of confused as to when I should be using those onstage against Spacies in particular. >.<

 

[joejoe22802]

So if Nair oos is fast enough it can always beat falco's drill shine drill right?

 

[silentSWAG]

any thing can beat any thing if spaced better. reasonably

 

[omgwtfToph]

he's probably asking the question in terms of frame timings and stuff, and the answer is yes*

* assumes both that you know falco is only using dair and shine. also you might have to judge whether to do it after the aerial or after the shine

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK, do you mind going a little in-depth about D-smash and B-air (besides edge guarding)
I'm kind of confused as to when I should be using those onstage against Spacies in particular. >.<

Bair is amazing and has great general applicability. It's better than fair when you have lots of room between you and your opponent, if they're above at the appropriate angle to hit the sweetspot (it's pretty good at poking through platforms and beating high approaches if the spacing's right) and I generally think it's easier to throw out in a full jump than nair and fair (although I think you're asking to be up smashed if you do this versus Fox too much).

D-smash can be treated like her down tilt (with less range but more priority above her). It's good against sidesteps, good to crouch cancel into to shake people, and so forth. It's a good combo finisher (includes tech chase) because it's easier to use on tech stand & non-tech than regrabs and jab resets and it's good to do your 13% and then set up another tech chase or whatever. WD back down smash is pretty good defensively. It's good for forcing people offstage.

 

[gm jack]

So if Nair oos is fast enough it can always beat falco's drill shine drill right?

Yes, but it depends if they leave their gaps before or after the shine.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So if Nair oos is fast enough it can always beat falco's drill shine drill right?

Yes, but it depends if they leave their gaps before or after the shine.

Read the OP. There is a link that addresses this question.

Nair OOS comes out on frame 6.

edit: for practical applications, jack's answer is correct. But you guys should get into the habit of checking the OP of this thread or my MU thread (which I will get back to once my controller stops trolling me and I fix its L / button pads) for answers because a lot of these questions have the data to be answered.

The best part is that you won't need to wait for someone who knows this stuff to reply to you, and it'll improve your mechanical knowledge of the game. Which is just gravy.




For future reference (someone should quote this half of the post in the OP):

** Aerial out of shield for every character, assuming perfection, is just your jump startup + the aerial's startup.
** Up+B and up smash are 1 frame (for your jump cancel) + the move's startup
** Shield grab is 7 for most characters
** Wavedash is jump startup + 1 (air-dodge) + 10 (waveland lag)

Some relevant attacks OOS & their speeds:

Sheik - nair oos 6
Peach - nair oos 8, up+B oos 7
Falco - shine oos 6
Fox - shine oos 4
Jigglypuff - rest oos 6
Marth - up+b oos 6





SOME MORE GENERAL TIPS YOU GUYS SHOULD KNOW

Complicated tip:

You guys should all be shaking out of stun during free-falls (or instant needle store to get out or something of its ilk). As part of Sheik's nature as a character, if you're falling down against Fox and beat his move with yours as he's trying to continue or extend his combo, unless he's at super low percent he's probably dropped his combo. Because he can't always beat your move via positioning because of her range, his counter to this is to commonly wait for Sheik to throw something out and then punish the lag because, what with you falling from the combo, you're probably not spaced & timing your aerials perfectly for low approaches (actually this is true for most characters vs Sheik).

This dependence on him waiting for lag & punishing it massively empowers wavelanding away as a combo break & pressure escape tactic in free-fall situations. However, you need to get yourself out of tumble immediately and WITHOUT SPENDING YOUR JUMP. Wasting your jump is the easiest way to die against this character because then you don't have it available as a mixup (DJ > waveland or attack or whatever is very strong) and it basically makes it so that Fox needs an up tilt to kill you because then he can just horizontal juggle you until you're offstage and you don't have the aerial mobility to escape something like that without the presence of that mixup.

Air-dodging away from characters to get baby wavelands while still retaining some dodge invincibility is really good against certain characters in these sorts of situations (Peach). Add it to your repertoire. It's a very strong mixup. Don't be lazy; don't tumble when you don't need to.

Significantly less complicated tip:

If you DI away from Fox's up smash at any percent (including 0%) there isn't enough stun between you being up smashed and landing on the ground floor for you to legitimately be forced to tech. But many of you still get up smashed, fall on the ground, and then tech. You don't need to do this. Shake, double jump, needle to make your autocancel (not sure about this one; haven't tested it yet but I think it would work the same as Fox & Falco's laser thing versus Samus) are all much better options because being forced to tech sucks even if you're Sheik.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Whoa, whoa whoa, KK. Don't Sheik and Peach nairs both come out on frame 3? (hitbox) In addition, Sheik's jump comes out on frame 4, and Peach's frame 6, so wouldn't their nairs OoS be 7 and 9 frames, respectively?

Unless I'm doing that wrong, which in that case, never mind.

 

[Doser]

Why haven't you made an OOS tier list yet?