Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KirbyKaze]

SDM's frame data is written funny

Jump startup X = airborne frame X

X (the frame you're airborne) overlaps with the aerial's 1st frame of startup if you input correctly

so basically, no. my data is correct.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh. I didn't know that. Okay then, thanks!

 

[Kaffei]

Thank you KK =D

 

[Doser]

I'm serious about dat OOS tier list.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

#1 bowser's upb
#2 samus's upb
#3 G&W's upb
#4 spotdodging
#5 unplugging your opponent's controller

 

[Strong Badam]

needle cancel works out of hitstun david

 

[ShroudedOne]

KirbyKaze, you are absolutely splendid. Even if you don't consider this amazing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

#1 bowser's upb
#2 samus's upb
#3 G&W's upb
#4 spotdodging
#5 unplugging your opponent's controller

G&W's upB doesn't do anything if you hit it though.

needle cancel works out of hitstun david

Yay.

KirbyKaze, you are absolutely splendid. Even if you don't consider this amazing.

That was alright.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah but g&w's upb is a frame 1 move...

 

[KirbyKaze]

1 frame moves can still be terrible.

 

[Doser]

Pls take this srsly.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

1 frame moves can still be terrible.

Signature'd

 

[omgwtfToph]

Please note that moves like bowser's/samus's up+B out of shield do not have instant startup but are invincible from (I believe) frame 1 and therefore are essentially shoryukens.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

which makes g&w's better AMIRITE!?

fastest OOS option in the game

 

[Kaffei]

I'm not sure how to fight characters like Doc/Mario/Luigi can anyone give me some advice

 

[BSeeD]

Personally, the first thing I'm thinking about while playing against Mario/Doc is avoiding this fkn crouch down smash.

U got more range than them, globally, and I would say abusing tilts is (as usual) the best option.

U should just avoid them being in ur confort zone at all costs.
I'll let better players tell u exactly what is good.

 

[Kaffei]

Yeah that always gets me.. They crouch cancel everything and Idk what to do
It's hard to grab them when they are spacing well

 

[BSeeD]

Yay, that's what I'm the more afraid of.

Basically, I always think I have to outspace them, and not let them lead the pace of the match.

I think it's one of the MU where u have to be more aggressive than usual.

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13694223&postcount=2732

In general, just fair/bair/needle/grab/shield/cc mix beats them. Do good combos. Edgeguard efficiently.

 

[prog]

Hi kk!

I made it home

 

[BSeeD]

I'm pretty happy I had the same judgement about this MU than KK

Tells me I'm not that stupid

 

[Kaffei]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13694223&postcount=2732

In general, just fair/bair/needle/grab/shield/cc mix beats them. Do good combos. Edgeguard efficiently.

Thank you so much =D

 

[silentSWAG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qf6hV3_zNU&list=FLWHCXPl_FEgq4_cRw_jQ98A&feature=mh_lolz

i want kirbykaze to critique me

 

[gm jack]

Not KK but whatever.

The two biggest things that stuck out for me were mistiming needles trying to intercept the firefox down to the ledge, and not really being greedy enough with combos.

The needles thing is a matter of not panicking and not throwing needles asap even though they clearly won't hit.

Extending combos by an extra hit or two really helps tack on the damage, which then means the fair to end the combo is much more likely to set up a good edgeguarding attempt. In contrast, your combo game was almost entirely dash attack and tilts (on top of tech chasing) either into itself of fair. Sometimes, going for that extra combo helps turn a single good launch into death, as opposed to just fairing them the the ledge, and semi-resetting the situation.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'll seriously watch it later but you actually have a reasonable understanding of how to engage in a camp-off with Fox, so kudos. Most people aren't good at that.

 

[bubbaking]

Complicated tip:

You guys should all be shaking out of stun during free-falls (or instant needle store to get out or something of its ilk). As part of Sheik's nature as a character, if you're falling down against Fox and beat his move with yours as he's trying to continue or extend his combo, unless he's at super low percent he's probably dropped his combo. Because he can't always beat your move via positioning because of her range, his counter to this is to commonly wait for Sheik to throw something out and then punish the lag because, what with you falling from the combo, you're probably not spaced & timing your aerials perfectly for low approaches (actually this is true for most characters vs Sheik).

This dependence on him waiting for lag & punishing it massively empowers wavelanding away as a combo break & pressure escape tactic in free-fall situations. However, you need to get yourself out of tumble immediately and WITHOUT SPENDING YOUR JUMP. Wasting your jump is the easiest way to die against this character because then you don't have it available as a mixup (DJ > waveland or attack or whatever is very strong) and it basically makes it so that Fox needs an up tilt to kill you because then he can just horizontal juggle you until you're offstage and you don't have the aerial mobility to escape something like that without the presence of that mixup.

Air-dodging away from characters to get baby wavelands while still retaining some dodge invincibility is really good against certain characters in these sorts of situations (Peach). Add it to your repertoire. It's a very strong mixup. Don't be lazy; don't tumble when you don't need to.

Significantly less complicated tip:

If you DI away from Fox's up smash at any percent (including 0%) there isn't enough stun between you being up smashed and landing on the ground floor for you to legitimately be forced to tech. But many of you still get up smashed, fall on the ground, and then tech. You don't need to do this. Shake, double jump, needle to make your autocancel (not sure about this one; haven't tested it yet but I think it would work the same as Fox & Falco's laser thing versus Samus) are all much better options because being forced to tech sucks even if you're Sheik.

Um, what is this "shake" thing you keep referring to? Do I wiggle the analog stick and thus remove myself from the tumbling animation?

1 frame moves can still be terrible.

Lolz, true, although by majority, they're all great and there's only one black sheep in the mix.

Please note that moves like bowser's/samus's up+B out of shield do not have instant startup but are invincible from (I believe) frame 1 and therefore are essentially shoryukens.

Both are invincible for 4 frames and then hit on frame 5, thus making them some of the best oos options ever for their respective chars.

I'm not sure how to fight characters like Doc/Mario/Luigi can anyone give me some advice

I think at 0, u can CC their dsmash and counter w/ ur own, but that's probably not the best choice. Probably better to just grab them instead. My biggest prob w/ them was always the pills (fireballs aren't that good imo). They screw up everything, your approach, your counter, your recovery, everything... -_- I try to crouch under them when I can, but if that's done too much, Sheik will just be baited into doing it. Edgeguarding them can also be kind of difficult for the same reason (although fireballs become much better in this respect). Other ppl probably have more to say on that. Just don't get caped off the ledge, cuz that blows. Remember, Doc only gets one cape while recovering, but Mario gets 2. I think those 2 moves give me the most trouble, cape and pill... <.<

 

[Jolteon]

edgeguarding them is kinda easy, you can bair the pills or lightshield edgeguard them. if they use up their recovery options (tornado+cape) and you hit them back out they're basically dead.

 

[ShroudedOne]

bubbaking, to shake out of stun (technically, it's tumble), you make a dash dance motion with the analog stick. Just back and forth. So yes, what you said.

 

[bubbaking]

Jolteon, by light shield edgeguarding, you mean letting their upB push you onto the ledge and forcing them to take the stage?

Thanks Shrouded!

 

[Jolteon]

Lightshield when they use pills to cover the edge.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, does it keep them from sweetspotting? :O

 

[Jolteon]

It doesn't do anything about the up+b directly, it just deals with the pills when they could be inconvenient.

 

[bubbaking]

Ah I see. Sorry to spam u w/ Q's but won't the pills knock Shiek away from the ledge if she's in light shield?

 

[Jolteon]

nah it puts her on the edge if you angle it, then you can just deal with doc himself which is a simple matter.

 

[bubbaking]

Ahh, I get it now. So the pills actually cause you to edgehog if you angle your light shield correctly. Nice!

 

[Kaffei]

Idk what to do against ccing
I get punished for doing an aerial on them
is it possible to l cancel perfectly then dash out of their range so i dont get punished by their cc?

 

[Twix]

Yeah, I have a similar problem, Kaffei. I've been told to just SHFFL aerials against those who CC constantly, not sure if this is the right answer, though.

 

[garrR]

can i get some video critique of the falco matchup? probably the hardest one for me.

here's a best of 5 set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIZiOw82I2Y&feature=channel_video_title

 

[gm jack]

Idk what to do against ccing
I get punished for doing an aerial on them
is it possible to l cancel perfectly then dash out of their range so i dont get punished by their cc?

Your options depend on who you are playing. However, if they are just ccing everything, just take the free grabs instead. All you can really do though is improve your spacing or not hit them while they are crouch cancelling, as it is there to punish your moves.

can i get some video critique of the falco matchup? probably the hardest one for me.

here's a best of 5 set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIZiOw82I2Y&feature=channel_video_title

You went for jab -> grab/tilt a lot, even when he started ccing the jab or spot dodging after the jab. It works as a mix up, but after the first stock or two, he adapted to it so it didn't work much after.

Powershielding is a nice tool to have, to give you a bit more freedom in your movement.

Your offstage game could use a little work. If falco has to up below the stage, he should be dead. For example, at 6:00, you tried to get on the ledge to bair when run off to DJ fair would be quicker, easier and more effective. It happened a couple of other times, but that's a clear example. As falco is such a beast on stage, you need every edge guard possible. Some stuff will become a guessing game, but a lot of the time, there is always something you can do to either put him back below the stage or get the kill.

 

[ShroudedOne]

If you throw someone, and they end up on a platform above you (maybe a YS platform, but I'm thinking of FoD platforms when they are low-ish), isn't usmash a better option than utilt? Or does it depend on the situation?

If it does depend on the situation, when would you utilt, as opposed to usmash?

EDIT: Also, you can spotdodge between fair and jab? O______O Why didn't I think of this...

I definitely need to practice doing this, then. Fair > jab is really good.