Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Why I'm liking ZSS a lot:

1. Better in all the good mobility specs over Marth. The difference was noticeable immediately.
2. Combos, combos everywhere (and I'm talking about strings as well, which Marth had a lot more of in Brawl than he does now).
3. Safety and pressure defined by spacing which she has a more diverse range of them (although mentally I still click with Marth's tools covering every situation than ZSS' right now; basically this whole 'reactable' notion of her grab means I need to learn to make hitting shields/doing shield damage a tight strategy)

So she used all my fundamentals from Marth very well, she comes with better mobility specs to correspond to the range of my fundamentals. She's challenging and I have faith she can handle everything in this game. Everyone knows Marth isn't in the same league right now.

 

[Zorai]

The thing with ZSS is she's WAY less linear and therefore just easier to use. Marth is a linear character, has been since Brawl. It just gives him only one effective playstyle. It also just so happens that there are very few linear characters in Smash 4 which is just dandy.

Dunno. I always hated the idea of taking the easy way out. That's why I refused to use MK in brawl against all odds and I was playing real solidly at my peak as Marth against high level players.

Ultimately if you lose a game it's your fault 100%. Playing Marth competitively takes a great deal of mental stamina and this game is no exception because most matchups will feel like playing versus metaknight in brawl. So maybe Marth's not in the same league as ZSS and a lot of other characters right now but that doesn't mean the same results can't be achieved with him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Are you saying you're not a hardcore marf anymore :'( don't give up on the dream

I mean yeah ZSS can do things way better but it's a totally different/faster playstyle. The only way to play marth in smash 4 is mikeneko style, that's how I feel. Now, as for how effective that style is I can't say because there are no mikenekos in smash 4 lmao there's just Marth's who think marth sucks :/

But yeah standard Dolphin Slash is super strong and if you're fast enough you can get out a lotttt of dtilt locks, jabs, etc.

Definitely more offensive I agree.

If you don't have a secondary with Marth, then you are not a serious competitive player.

Actually unless you play Diddy or Sheik that statement holds true for anyone.

 

[Shaya]

MK in Brawl was easy [to fight].
Marth had unlimited options; and many of which were definitively his in the 50/50s by a long shot. He was honestly the third best character in that game crippled at top level by RCO (5th was maybe kind to him considering). Either way his match ups were truly dominant when the attacking actions you choose were correct (so many factors to this).

Linear doesn't really make sense to me as a point for Marth. Marth is a character of punishing and trapping, it's methodical and requires tuned reactions.
ZSS is harder than Marth; she's rewarded for less than Marth does in this game though. I can go play Marth and be a much more liberal grabber, actively fight and outspace hitboxes from other characters from all over the place because disjoints are godlike, ZSS is not so kind with her attack animations and her issues with shield. But for Marth not being able to achieve safety in his kit denies his ability to trap, pressure and hence force people to play where he theoretically excels; reactive game play abusing his aforementioned abilities. He is shut down by specific safe play styles lest you take 10:90 chances at perfect moments and capitalize amazingly. The numbers don't add up for him. You aren't winning tournaments with dice rolls that skewed. Maybe this is something people who never played Brawl (or other fighters) at high level understand, I don't know. But playing to win means taking the safest choice with the best reward. Against Marth it's a pretty simple idea, he frame traps himself by acting so you just need to be out of range or pick correctly with a shield or dodge and let him uncoil himself over the course of consistent forced interactions (stage positioning being vital in this game and Marth lacking tools bar rolls to reacquire stage control).

 

[Emblem Lord]

I like the word...functionality.

Does this characters tools work in a way they are designed. It seems stupid but when you look at lower tiered characters, often times they are low tier because you see how their tools SHOULD work, but for various reasons they do not. Sometimes it's hitboxes, sometimes it's too little reward. Other times its the frame data. Either way though something doesnt add up and the result is an ineffective character.

If you play other fighters you can probably think of a dozen characters off hand that suffer from this. Sean Matsuda from 3S. Deejay in UltraSFIV. Hsien-ko in MvC3. War in TMNT:TF. Cammy and T-Hawk in ST.

That's Marth in this game. You look at his kit and you can see what he SHOULD be doing.

But...it doesn't all click mostly due to the frame data.

 

[kj22]

MK in Brawl was easy.
Marth had unlimited options; and many of which were definitively his in the 50/50s by a long shot. He was honestly the third best character in that game crippled at top level by RCO (5th was maybe kind to him considering). Either way his match ups were truly dominant when the attacking actions you choose were correct (so many factors to this).

Linear doesn't really make sense to me as a point for Marth. Marth is a character of punishing and trapping, it's methodical and requires tuned reactions.
ZSS is harder than Marth; she's rewarded for less than Marth does in this game though. I can go play Marth and be a much more liberal grabber, actively fight and outspace hitboxes from other characters from all over the place because disjoints are godlike, ZSS is not so kind with her attack animations and her issues with shield. But for Marth not being able to achieve safety in his kit denies his ability to trap, pressure and hence force people to play where he theoretically excels; reactive game play abusing his aforementioned abilities. He is shut down by specific safe play styles lest you take 10:90 chances at perfect moments and capitalize amazingly. The numbers don't add up for him. You aren't winning tournaments with dice rolls that skewed. Maybe this is something people who never played Brawl (or other fighters) at high level understand, I don't know. But playing to win means taking the safest choice with the best reward. Against Marth it's a pretty simple idea, he frame traps himself by acting so you just need to be out of range or pick correctly with a shield or dodge and let him uncoil himself over the course of consistent forced interactions (stage positioning being vital in this game and Marth lacking tools bar rolls to reacquire stage control).

Lmfao...he frame traps himself...
Quote of the month.

I feel like it's like this vs the top tiers and the pits most of the match, and against some characters during certain points (marth with a stock deficit vs a camping, safe player is terrrrible and it turns into those 10:90 situations shaya just mentioned) He doesn't get to play the game, just hope the opponent falls into his hands
That's what really irks me on this game, Marth's inability to pressure. Marth isn't even scary anymore. His strong point is literally being close to dying. He's so bleh at times, like being a one shot rage wonder isn't worth the beating you took to get there.


It sucks not being able to push a button to force/bait anything because all your options or too risky. As Marth, having the opponent be at some positions in this game is just down right AWKWARD. Having to stop and do nothing is sooo cheeks. No coverage (aside from sh bair), just gotta pick the perfect option as you wait or you lose your advantage.
But if it's that strict and stressful and risky to capitalize on Marth's advantage, is it really advantage?

 

[kj22]

I like the word...functionality.

Does this characters tools work in a way they are designed. It seems stupid but when you look at lower tiered characters, often times they are low tier because you see how their tools SHOULD work, but for various reasons they do not. Sometimes it's hitboxes, sometimes it's too little reward. Other times its the frame data. Either way though something doesnt add up and the result is an ineffective character.

If you play other fighters you can probably think of a dozen characters off hand that suffer from this. Sean Matsuda from 3S. Deejay in UltraSFIV. Hsien-ko in MvC3. War in TMNT:TF. Cammy and T-Hawk in ST.

That's Marth in this game. You look at his kit and you can see what he SHOULD be doing.

But...it doesn't all click mostly due to the frame data.

He even feels disgusting, trying to flow with him is like trying to make a rap out of alphabet soup.

 

[Zorai]

If you don't have a secondary with Marth, then you are not a serious competitive player.

Actually unless you play Diddy or Sheik that statement holds true for anyone.

Not really, I've found Wario to be a solid secondary especially against heavy projectiles. He covers a lot of bad matchups due to his ability to camp and his godly mobility

 

[Emblem Lord]

you just agreed with me.

I think you read my statement incorrectly. I meant everyone needs a secondary besides diddy and sheik

 

[Vipermoon]

I noticed Heavy Blade is not an EVO custom. I think we need to give that move more credit. It will kill very early and has very surprising sword range (like Marth has an elastic sword) and Marth steps far foward and the hits do connect and combo occasionally. I think the range especially can really catch someone off guard.

 

[Foodies]

I've played around with it and I came to the conclusion that it's not worth giving up regular DB for. It catches people offguard one time and never again lol. You really aren't going to be hitting with the last hit of it unless your opponent really messes up or is unfamiliar with its timing and runs into it (most of my successes were typically the up version catching a bad landing near the ledge). I'll give credit that it's better than easy blade but not good enough to use moveslots on over regular DB. Maybe it would be more viable in doubles but I haven't looked into that yet.

 

[kj22]

I've played around with it and I came to the conclusion that it's not worth giving up regular DB for. It catches people offguard one time and never again lol. You really aren't going to be hitting with the last hit of it unless your opponent really messes up or is unfamiliar with its timing and runs into it (most of my successes were typically the up version catching a bad landing near the ledge). I'll give credit that it's better than easy blade but not good enough to use moveslots on over regular DB. Maybe it would be more viable in doubles but I haven't looked into that yet.

foodies I need more vids of you please <3

 

[Emblem Lord]

I noticed Heavy Blade is not an EVO custom. I think we need to give that move more credit. It will kill very early and has very surprising sword range (like Marth has an elastic sword) and Marth steps far foward and the hits do connect and combo occasionally. I think the range especially can really catch someone off guard.

You will just never...EVER hit this move.

This is how you need to think...would Zero get hit with this? M2K? Nakat? Any upper echelon player? If the answer is no then its not worth messing with.

Heavy Blade is garbage. Like Shaya messes around and says CS is overrated and blah blah. Maybe. Maybe it is.

But HB? That move isn't even worth debating. It is ass. Period.

 

[LoreLes]

All heavy blade is good for is killing your partner in doubles.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wow. I wonder if anyone agrees this move has potential. I mean even one hit does the damage of 4 hits of DB (which you can't consistently get). I believe DB is better but HB is another choice.

 

[Shaya]

I think CS turns Marth into a different type of character. Not one I'm certain actually succeeds yet, but it does definitely fit into the general schema of how customs change the game for most characters.
Perhaps a better way to put it would be that Dolphin Slash is underrated

Heavy Blade has one viable niche. The first hit is like an alternative, slightly larger but laggier forward air. It's kinda the Melee shieldbreaker except unfortunately doesn't have the charge aspect available to it (but you can throw out the second hit I guess). Still, way too gimmicky and I'm somewhat certain Dancing Blade does the same thing but mostly better.

You may notice this from various matches or sets where you see Marth win in, there is often a common thing shown in them: Dancing blade working out for us. Not getting out sped, actually punishing things and consistently finishing off properly. It's actually so critical to us as bread and butter that it sucks it's not a tool we can rely on, but when it works out as the 15%ish damage great positioning gained tool, we rock it very hard.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In every tourney I have been too the moment I start using DB to take advantage of trap situations and reaction punishes to reset my opponents, I start doing alot better.

Honestly if Marth only recieved slightly more hitstun on DB and make it hit on frame 5 or 6, that would be enough imo. I'm not greedy. DB is an integral part of his trap/reset game. Make that move better and he would legit jump an entire tier imo.

 

[Zorai]

You can mind**** someone extremely hard with heavy blade. Even if they know every nook and cranny of it, that's beside the point.. People already know everything about marth. Once you condition them with the dilemma of "is he going for the next hit or should I punish this" then you apply pressure - and safely at that:

The final hit kills most characters at 50ish tipped and this is with 0 rage. Get rage and you don't even need to tip the last hit. With rage might kill in the 30s. Also it covers entire platforms, including smashville's.

Heavy blade is a very stage dominating move.

And as has been said, one hit is worth an entire normal dancing blade, except the first hit but if you're using this move properly, you really shouldn't be stopping at the first hit because the goal is to condition and get stage control. In fact you shouldn't be happy if they ran into your first hit.

Interesting thing, after 2 hits if they are not already committed to punishing you while risking being hit with DB3, then you are 100% safe because of the range you are at (DB3 is what thrusts Marth forward). Even just the threat of hit #3 can reset the entire situation. If hit #2 misses, you can expect them to be shielding. If you got them to try to jump around you, consider it a job well done and proceed to punish them for that.

Note: if you do stop after DB2, you have about as many frames of lag as you would if you missed a landing up-air.. And considering the range you'd be at this is VERY far from a gimmick

You really have to play with this move extensively to see its full potential otherwise it just seems like a gimmick. This move makes your opponent play on your terms which is something Marth struggles to do especially when playing passive.

I would definitely run heavy blade in tournament after playing like a few hundred matches with it.

 

[Vipermoon]

You can mind**** someone extremely hard with heavy blade. Even if they know every nook and cranny of it, that's beside the point.. People already know everything about marth. Once you condition them with the dilemma of "is he going for the next hit or should I punish this" then you apply pressure - and safely at that:

The final hit kills most characters at 50ish tipped and this is with 0 rage. Get rage and you don't even need to tip the last hit. With rage might kill in the 30s. Also it covers entire platforms, including smashville's.

Heavy blade is a very stage dominating move.

And as has been said, one hit is worth an entire normal dancing blade, except the first hit but if you're using this move properly, you really shouldn't be stopping at the first hit because the goal is to condition and get stage control. In fact you shouldn't be happy if they ran into your first hit.

Interesting thing, after 2 hits if they are not already committed to punishing you while risking being hit with DB3, then you are 100% safe because of the range you are at (DB3 is what thrusts Marth forward). Even just the threat of hit #3 can reset the entire situation. If hit #2 misses, you can expect them to be shielding. If you got them to try to jump around you, consider it a job well done and proceed to punish them for that.

Note: if you do stop after DB2, you have about as many frames of lag as you would if you missed a landing up-air.. And considering the range you'd be at this is VERY far from a gimmick

You really have to play with this move extensively to see its full potential otherwise it just seems like a gimmick. This move makes your opponent play on your terms which is something Marth struggles to do especially when playing passive.

I would definitely run heavy blade in tournament after playing like a few hundred matches with it.

This kind of stuff is basically what was on my mind. Thanks for portraying it for me haha.

By the way, when you were using "DB" you meant "HB", correct?

Heavy blade has some good potential after a lot of practice but even with some of dancing blade's deficiencies (not saying HB has none, is has a lot of issues), the level of stage control it gives and the way I'm able to lead it into shield breakers for example (just one of the billions of things you can do with DB), is something I cannot underestimate.

I'll keep practicing heavy blade on anther's ladder (i'm usually practicing custom set 3323) and see what I can do with it.

 

[Shaya]

HB1, 2 and 3 are unsafe enough on shield to allow punishes in between them by the opponent.
HB1->2 not so much, but an opponent can still forward roll for an anything they want punish.

 

[Zorai]

Yeah if they forward roll after hit 2 you're getting punished but I don't recall this being any different with standard DB... But you see here is the point

You hardly ever (if at all) want to use HB offensively or as a direct punish. I thought that would be pretty obvious. You could put down some mild shield pressure with HB1->2 if you intend on rolling back immediately after or doing reverse up-b/grab but if you catch them shielding you should really just be grabbing or poking with shield breaker instead of doing anything with your sword really but even retreating fair would be better in this case.

HB seems to be insane at landing traps and edge shenanigans and it even gives marth himself a solid landing.

Try doing shorthop HB1-> HB2 (Up hit) -> HB3 (Forward hit). Literally insane hitboxes... Do this at the ledge and there's no getting past you. What a difference from just short hop fairing or uptilting or something.

Also SH fair into HB1 mimics SH double fair from Brawl except the second fair is an even bigger hitbox (that can be followed up on). Not nearly as effective with standard DB.

 

[Shaya]

Difference is that HB strikes is about 2-3x the start up and has extra cool down attached to it.
Furthermore DB1-3 were always "guaranteed" on shield input correctly. Between the third and fourth strikes people could attack/grab/roll forward.

 

[Zorai]

We don't have the frame data but it's clear to me that HB1 comes out at least as fast as shieldbreaker. So I really don't get your argument. Extra cooldown would be a problem if you were trying to use HB the way you use DB or if DB was even safe to begin with.

I honestly think we all as Marth mains need to play with it more so we can understand more of its applications.

But right now I am of the opinion that mastering heavy blade can take a Marth player much much farther. DB is good in Smash 4, not great, and very limited in its uses, so it's time to hit the lab since customs are here to stay. Going HB means having a completely different playstyle though, so we can't judge HB based on its perceived shortcomings compared to DB.

Oh also, are you sure DB1-3 are guaranteed on shield? I've had many people roll after first hit of DB on shield no matter how fast I input the consecutive hits.

 

[Xisin]

just did 3 tournaments with a 1123 set up. Made roughly 120 dollars, so not bad between them... not the best. Crescent slash is the ****. heres why: fair to CS, Bair to cs, fthrow to CS, dash attack to CS, CS to dash CS works on sv gorgeously due to platform (hit them on the ledge as you recover and if they land on plat + miss tech) and it can be used as a vertical finisher, Hell dudes thats a good trade off for "noit being able to go deep". (you can go pretty deep with it still just know your limits. Crescent makes counterpicks like delfino invaluable to marth, we're talking consistent opportunities to kill at 40% or less here.

Placings btw (3rd of 40, 5th of 50ish, 17th of 100ish. 2nd in doubles at the mediums sized event.) Worst MU imo ROB, diddy, and runaway sheik. I havent fought anything harder, I've beaten several ZSS now and it might be in part that they dont know the mu... buttt ya.

The combo itself is more dependent on fthrow rage on marth more than anything else. I was able to hit it on literally everyone i played against, top players, mid players, etc. the one consitant thing that decided if it misses? I"m over 70% on damage. fair and bair true combo into Crescent, tiped bair at 50% turns it into a kill combo. IT IS A BETTER AND SAFER RECOVERY WHEN USED PROPERLY. (it cleaves the ledge and tips, this swats away villagers etc., you can also recover on the stage with it fairly safely, giving marth another option to his linear dolphin.) seriously use this.

 

[Zorai]

just did 3 tournaments with a 1123 set up. Made roughly 120 dollars, so not bad between them... not the best. Crescent slash is the ****. heres why: fair to CS, Bair to cs, fthrow to CS, dash attack to CS, CS to dash CS works on sv gorgeously due to platform (hit them on the ledge as you recover and if they land on plat + miss tech) and it can be used as a vertical finisher, Hell dudes thats a good trade off for "noit being able to go deep". (you can go pretty deep with it still just know your limits. Crescent makes counterpicks like delfino invaluable to marth, we're talking consistent opportunities to kill at 40% or less here.

Placings btw (3rd of 40, 5th of 50ish, 17th of 100ish. 2nd in doubles at the mediums sized event.) Worst MU imo ROB, diddy, and runaway sheik. I havent fought anything harder, I've beaten several ZSS now and it might be in part that they dont know the mu... buttt ya.

The combo itself is more dependent on fthrow rage on marth more than anything else. I was able to hit it on literally everyone i played against, top players, mid players, etc. the one consitant thing that decided if it misses? I"m over 70% on damage. fair and bair true combo into Crescent, tiped bair at 50% turns it into a kill combo. IT IS A BETTER AND SAFER RECOVERY WHEN USED PROPERLY. (it cleaves the ledge and tips, this swats away villagers etc., you can also recover on the stage with it fairly safely, giving marth another option to his linear dolphin.) seriously use this.

Got any vids of your gameplay? Maybe on a stream archive somewhere? I'd like to see how you played. Unfortunately all those combos are very percentage dependent such as fair/bair to CS.

Also which top players did you beat? No offense but your state doesn't spawn many great players :/ Congrats on your earnings though.

Crescent slash alone can't win you games with Marth. Obviously you need extraordinary fundamentals to excel with him in tournament. This is the only reason I'm questioning you.

 

[Emblem Lord]

HB just...doesnt impress me enough to even WANT to lab with it honestly. That start up fills my belly with contempt.

 

[Xisin]

I don't name drop for a reason ~ results threads should be up for them soon enough though. There is stream footage, its on events2compete i think its the name, it's a chicago based crew. Also never said I beat a top rated player, nor implied, merely said i connected some CS strings/combos on them at proper percentage. Top level sheiks are just... hard, she simply can wait til you whiff something then rofflestomp you. Diddy seems to not have to think about the mu too hard. ROBs gyro is much more meaningful ion the smash 4 mu than it was in brawl, also his throw game ultimately is what tilts the mu in robs favor... dthrow to upair from rob can kill at absurd percents if he gets the 50/50 on you, its even worse if he properly uses his custom up b to do the dthrow to upair. you do need a secondary for this character for sure. I have a solid sheik but I was playing 1123 marth to see where it took me before the patch. As much as I like 3123, (I used it very occasionally) it allows people to turtle in shield on you harder than they normally can, which is bad. I don't understand dash assault fully however, it seems to break shield at some point during the dash but it feels inconsistent. Props to shaya for pointing out some finer uses of standard sheildbreaker to me.

Whole point of the posts wasn't about me but rather Crescent, and that the tradeoff if by far worth it, it gives marths many more kill options and set ups than he has already. ledge drop bair/trump bair are option for guarding as well as dropping about a height and a half off stage. you can still up b oos with it too, its unsafe at lower % however... I don't see a severe draw back to using it. Just mostly positives, plus real cheese stages such as delfino, castle siege or skyloft if they don't ban them. (Skyloft is regional sensitive but I feel it's one of Marth's finer stages, especially with CS.)

If you want to play me you can, that way you can see my fundamentals. I'll be happy to play you online or whatever. I play on Anthers ladder as well you can catch me there for a ranked game. or we can spar via the marcina thread, I'll post there today, when I get off work.

 

[Zorai]

I would argue that even the smartest player in the world would not be able to beat a high level Sheik while using Marth. Note how I say high level because that's all it takes to completely shut down Marth. A top level Sheik would just be overkill. Marth is way too ground oriented in this game and Sheik's groundgame is absurdly better. You have to hope they **** up in the neutral position, but if they don't and you whiff anything whatsoever then it's really bad for you..

If Sheik is not nerfed in the patch this Wednesday I am probably investing way more time into her than Marth. But I'll never give up on Marth because he IS solid in this game especially with customs and can compete with most characters below A tier..

 

[Emblem Lord]

except in tourney you are not fighting alot of chars below A tier once you hit higher brackets.

just saying

 

[Zorai]

Yup. People aren't good enough to be "low tier heroes" yet.

By wednesday we will know if Nintendo gives a **** about competitive Smash. If they don't, then I see no reason to continue struggling and I will invest a lot of time in Sheik.

I wouldn't call it taking the easy way out if it's the only way out.

 

[kj22]

I would argue that even the smartest player in the world would not be able to beat a high level Sheik while using Marth. Note how I say high level because that's all it takes to completely shut down Marth. A top level Sheik would just be overkill. Marth is way too ground oriented in this game and Sheik's groundgame is absurdly better. You have to hope they **** up in the neutral position, but if they don't and you whiff anything whatsoever then it's really bad for you..

If Sheik is not nerfed in the patch this Wednesday I am probably investing way more time into her than Marth. But I'll never give up on Marth because he IS solid in this game especially with customs and can compete with most characters below A tier..

I agree with this so much. Shiek vs marth is disgusting. A high level shiek here on Houston (Karna, on the come up, has beaten GrimTurtle (UltimateRazer), Gnes, and believe has taken games off trela and denti) destroyyyys me in that mu. He's a very very technical shiek, and gives me glimpses of what shiek at perfect play at a high level can do.
Marth not having a safe landing option sucks soooo bad. There's so much wrong in that mu...

 

[Vipermoon]

I have the hitbox frame data for Dancing Blade, Heavy Blade, and Effortless Blade (it was easier to copy Effortless blade with the others than to leave it out). You guys hopefully recognize this pastebin source, it's a great load of information.

This is just hitbox info so no ending lag but Shaya did mention in another thread that HB1 has 10 frames more end lag than DB1 (55 vs 45). It is unknown how much more lag it has in the other hits.

Spoiler: Side B Data

Dancing Blade (ground first hit)
Frame 7- 9: 4% 25b/75g (KO@ 526%) 92° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 7- 9: 3% 25b/75g (KO@ 513%) 20° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 7- 9: 3% 25b/75g (KO@ 642%) 78° 0.8-SDI Slash
Max Damage: 4%

Effortless Blade (ground first hit)
Frame 8-10: 3% 25b/75g (KO@ 633%) 93° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 8-10: 2% 25b/75g (KO@ 643%) 20° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 8-10: 2% 25b/75g (KO@ 801%) 80° 0.8-SDI Slash
Max Damage: 3%

Heavy Blade (ground first hit)
Frame 11-14: 9% 58b/68g (KO@ 222%) 361° Slash
Frame 11-14: 7% 58b/68g (KO@ 275%) 361° Slash
Max Damage: 9%

Dancing Blade (ground second hit up)
Frame 7-10: 4% 30b/50g (KO@ 770%) 85° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 7-10: 3% 30b/70g (KO@ 734%) 60° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 7-10: 3% 30b/70g (KO@ 665%) 80° 0.8-SDI Slash
Max Damage: 4%

Heavy Blade (ground second hit up)
Frame 7-11: 11% 60b/80g (KO@ 187%) 65° 0.4-Hitlag Slash
Frame 7-11: 9% 60b/80g (KO@ 183%) 40° 0.4-Hitlag Slash
Frame 7-11: 9% 60b/80g (KO@ 235%) 60° 0.4-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 11%

Dancing Blade (ground second hit forward)
Frame 9-10: 4%(+1) 28b/50g (KO@ 779%) 90° 0.8-SDI Pierce
Frame 9-10: 3%(+1) 28b/70g (KO@ 613%) 40° 0.8-SDI Pierce
Frame 9-10: 3%(+1) 28b/70g (KO@ 683%) 75° 0.8-SDI Pierce
Max Damage: 4%

Effortless Blade (ground second hit forward)
Frame 9-10: 3%(+1) 28b/50g (KO@ 937%) 95° 0.8-SDI Pierce
Frame 9-10: 2%(+1) 28b/70g (KO@ 805%) 45° 0.8-SDI Pierce
Frame 9-10: 2%(+1) 28b/70g (KO@ 843%) 80° 0.8-SDI Pierce
Max Damage: 3%

Heavy Blade (ground second hit forward)
Frame 9-11: 11%(+1) 57b/67g (KO@ 189%) 361° 1.4-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 9-11: 9%(+1) 57b/67g (KO@ 227%) 361° 1.4-Hitlag Pierce
Max Damage: 11%

Dancing Blade (ground third hit up)
Frame 8-10: 5%(+1) 40b/40g (KO@ 774%) 85° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 8-10: 4%(+1) 40b/60g (KO@ 673%) 60° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 8-10: 4%(+1) 40b/60g (KO@ 606%) 80° 0.8-SDI Slash
Max Damage: 5%

Heavy Blade (ground third hit up)
Frame 8-11: 12% 60b/100g (KO@ 126%) 75° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
Frame 8-11: 10% 60b/100g (KO@ 168%) 60° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
Frame 8-11: 10% 60b/100g (KO@ 156%) 70° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 12%

Dancing Blade (ground third hit forward)
Frame 6- 8: 5%(+1) 30b/35g (KO@ 988%) 70° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 6- 8: 4%(+1) 30b/50g (KO@ 677%) 35° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 6- 8: 4%(+1) 30b/50g (KO@ 857%) 60° 0.8-SDI Slash
Max Damage: 5%

Effortless Blade (ground third hit forward)
Frame 6- 8: 3%(+1) 40b/35g 55° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 6- 8: 2%(+1) 40b/50g 45° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 6- 8: 2%(+1) 40b/50g 50° 0.8-SDI Slash
Max Damage: 3%

Heavy Blade (ground third hit forward)
Frame 6- 9: 12% 60b/90g (KO@ 122%) 361° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
Frame 6- 9: 10% 60b/90g (KO@ 147%) 361° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 12%

Dancing Blade (ground third hit down)
Frame 8-10: 4%(+1) 30b/40g (KO@ 775%) 20° 0.8-SDI Slash
Frame 8-10: 3%(+1) 30b/60g (KO@ 619%) 20° 0.8-SDI Slash
Max Damage: 4%

Heavy Blade (ground third hit down)
Frame 8-11: 12% 40b/70g (KO@ 160%) 15° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
Frame 8-11: 10% 40b/70g (KO@ 191%) 15° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 12%

Dancing Blade (ground fourth hit up)
Frame 11-15: 8%(+1) 60b/118g (KO@ 153%) 80° Slash
Frame 11-15: 6%(+1) 60b/118g (KO@ 195%) 80° Slash
Max Damage: 8%

Heavy Blade (ground fourth hit up)
Frame 15-20: 15%(+1) 50b/150g (KO@ 64%) 80° 2.1-Hitlag Slash
Frame 15-20: 13%(+1) 50b/150g (KO@ 77%) 80° 1.7-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 15%

Dancing Blade (ground fourth hit forward)
Frame 13-15: 7%(+5) 60b/130g (KO@ 137%) 361° Slash
Frame 13-15: 5%(+5) 60b/130g (KO@ 180%) 361° Slash
Max Damage: 7%

Effortless Blade (ground fourth hit forward)
Frame 12-15: 5%(+5) 60b/120g (KO@ 196%) 361° Slash
Frame 12-15: 4%(+5) 60b/120g (KO@ 230%) 361° Slash
Max Damage: 5%

Heavy Blade (ground fourth hit forward)
Frame 16-19: 16%(+3) 50b/150g (KO@ 51%) 361° 2.1-Hitlag Slash
Frame 16-19: 14%(+3) 50b/150g (KO@ 62%) 361° 1.7-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 16%

Dancing Blade (ground fourth hit down)
Frame 13-14: [2%(+1)]x4 2b/40g 80° 0.5-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 13-14: [2%]x4 2b/40g 80° 0.5-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 37-38: 6%(+1) 70b/80g (KO@ 229%) 361° Pierce
Frame 37-38: 4%(+1) 70b/80g (KO@ 312%) 361° Pierce
Frame 37-38: 4% 70b/80g (KO@ 312%) 361° Pierce
Max Damage: 14%

Heavy Blade (ground fourth hit down)
Frame 19-21: [2.2%]x4 2b/40g 80° 0.5-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 46-47: 13%(+1) 60b/80g (KO@ 119%) 361° 2.1-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 46-47: 11%(+1) 60b/80g (KO@ 143%) 361° 1.7-Hitlag Pierce
Frame 46-47: 11% 60b/80g (KO@ 143%) 361° 1.7-Hitlag Pierce
Max Damage: 21.8%

Locuan Edit: Added spoiler tags.

 

[Zorai]

I agree with this so much. Shiek vs marth is disgusting. A high level shiek here on Houston (Karna, on the come up, has beaten GrimTurtle (UltimateRazer), Gnes, and believe has taken games off trela and denti) destroyyyys me in that mu. He's a very very technical shiek, and gives me glimpses of what shiek at perfect play at a high level can do.
Marth not having a safe landing option sucks soooo bad. There's so much wrong in that mu...

Being great with Sheik is not hard dude so I believe you 100%....

 

[Browny]

https://gfycat.com/MediumQueasyCuscus

This probably would have KO'd at 5%

For any wifi trolls out there, spam SH shieldbreaker, reverse it as well to catch people that roll under your jump. I hit so many people with this its ridiculous. Never KO'd that low though.

 

[Locuan]

@ Vipermoon , I added the spoiler tags for you . You can see how it's done if you go and edit your post. On another note, did you get that data from Dantarion's info dump for 1.04? I haven't had the time to work it out but if so, it would be great if I could modify the data into the format I have for the Frame Data Thread and add it in.

 

[Vipermoon]

@ Vipermoon , I added the spoiler tags for you . You can see how it's done if you go and edit your post. On another note, did you get that data from Dantarion's info dump for 1.04? I haven't had the time to work it out but if so, it would be great if I could modify the data into the format I have for the Frame Data Thread and add it in.

Sweet thanks.

Yes, sort of. I got it from here, under "Full Data": http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

It's a script that takes his data dump and organizes it to be easier to read. I actually pasted and saved it into the windows notepad so I can refer to it whenever. And thank god for CTRL + F.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I am pretty excited for tomorrow to see just how they will change Marth, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they will barely change a thing for him, not change him at all, or maybe even make him worse. I highly doubt they will do the latter, but we already know that Nintendo and ESPECIALLY Sakurai do not care about competitive Smash. Maybe in this patch they might prove us wrong and actually listen to what people are saying about the balance of the game currently.

 

[Quickhero]

@ JingleJangleJamil Your approach is a healthy one. Don't expect changes so you're still content in case he doesn't get any changes. However, if he gets buffs, expect you and I to be happy men. :3

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

@ JingleJangleJamil Your approach is a healthy one. Don't expect changes so you're still content in case he doesn't get any changes. However, if he gets buffs, expect you and I to be happy men. :3

Honestly I have begun to start thinking less of buffing or nerfing character because the character needs it in my own personal opinion, but I have started to think of it as they need to buff or nerf this character because it will show that Nintendo IS listening to what the people are saying and they are going to give us what the people are asking for when it comes to the balance of the game. If Nintendo will listen to votes of what characters people want then they just might listen to what we are saying about the games balance.

 

[Zorai]

MARTH HAS BEEN BUFFED:

Things I have discovered so far:

-DOWN AIR IS GODLY
-Increased range on shieldbreaker with more kill power!
-Very slightly increased range on fsmash?
-Less lag on upair landing?
-Dolphin Slash has increased hitbox and knockback!
-More aerial mobility / faster fall speed???

HOLY **** GUYS