Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Pit has guaranteed dash attack as a punish from even full hop retreating fair, kinda sucks. Otherwise trying to compete at a dtilt and grab level is comparable to his stuff and tippers are nasty, we're both spacing characters. Can be edge guarded pretty hard, and the custom up-b that negates this isn't in any of the evo sets lol.

ROB is a lot easier in this game than Brawl IMO, ftilt is definitely not the same drama it was in Brawl. On the secret down low, his auto cancelled back air and back facing nair were really hard for us to deal with in neutral too. This game? None of those things are Rob's go tos. He's a slower paced character who now has more of a blind spot than he used to.

My experience with Greninja is pretty okay. Marth abuses his lack of shield grab with landing aerials pretty well. He hard punishes a lot of his things in the right conditions. Juggles him for days. Competes with his recovery in deadly ways. Marth also is in a nice spot where most of Greninja's links aren't automatic against him (he can jump out or fast fall dodge through [because of how awkward his jumps can be])

 

[Emblem Lord]

My feelings reflect Shayas.

At this point I literally only fear ZSS, Sonic, Diddy and Sheik.

Oh, wait...all top tiers.

****

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I really don't have any fear playing against most characters besides Sonic, Diddy, Rosa (Everyone says the MU is easy but I suck at it with any character) and projectile based characters. I have no experience against a Sheik outside of FG, but from the ones I have faced on FG they usually never gave me too much trouble though maybe they were not really good using Sheik. Honestly I think if you are going to use Marth you need to have a secondary or a co-main or you will find yourself in some matchups that can be pretty difficult for Marth. ZSS used to give me so much trouble, but now she isn't that difficult for me to play against. It is probably just my lack of experience against a really good player who uses the characters who don't give me trouble. Greninja gives me pretty much no trouble at all. A lot of his aerials and kill moves are pretty laggy and when they fail to hit me with them they eat a tipper f smash.

 

[Shaya]

I'm a poor representation of some things though. I tell people who say "your Marth is harder than your X" that I feel confident in having mastered that character in Brawl, there is never not an option in my mind that would work in Brawl and still mostly work here. The feeling is like "you're playing your 3 month old whatever, and doing pretty well against my 6 years in training Marth", shut the **** up and give me a bit more time until you barely get hits on my Zero Suit.

Certain things like dismantling a tsunami of projectiles is really so so so easy with Marth still a majority of the time (like please, Olimar and Falco; my god). Approaching, pressuring and taking advantage against someone like Rosalina is a 1/10th of the struggle it was to do the same (and Marth was one of the only few who could) against Ice Climbers in Brawl.

What stops him in his tracks are those who can choose to never commit against him (at this stage, going for grabs isn't that much of a commitment). Top/high tiers like Falcon, Fox and Yoshi are still completely within his grasps and is entirely down to who's the better player.

 

[Kevandre]

Figured I'd go to the social threads and post my silhouettes!

 

[kj22]

I'm a poor representation of some things though. I tell people who say "your Marth is harder than your X" that I feel confident in having mastered that character in Brawl, there is never not an option in my mind that would work in Brawl and still mostly work here. The feeling is like "you're playing your 3 month old whatever, and doing pretty well against my 6 years in training Marth", shut the **** up and give me a bit more time until you barely get hits on my Zero Suit.

Certain things like dismantling a tsunami of projectiles is really so so so easy with Marth still a majority of the time (like please, Olimar and Falco; my god). Approaching, pressuring and taking advantage against someone like Rosalina is a 1/10th of the struggle it was to do the same (and Marth was one of the only few who could) against Ice Climbers in Brawl.

What stops him in his tracks are those who can choose to never commit against him (at this stage, going for grabs isn't that much of a commitment). Top/high tiers like Falcon, Fox and Yoshi are still completely within his grasps and is entirely down to who's the better player.

Marth vs oli feels worse in this game; played against Denti in friendlies a bunch last weekend.

latched pikmin put you in some pretty intense hitlag, his recovery isn't as gimpable anymore, his jabs not worthless, and its not an easier to catch a running olimar.

In brawl marth had the frame data and aerial mobility to approach/pressure/take advantage of. He could make things happen, especially from neutral. In this game marth cant do much in neutral, its hoping your opponent messes up and you can capitalize on it. Curious why you feel like its easier then brawl when you have less tools...?

I agree that Yoshi is within his grasp, but fox and falcon I'm iffy on.

Marth on the ground just feels so lackluster. Single swing moves with lots of endlag is no bueno

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm a poor representation of some things though. I tell people who say "your Marth is harder than your X" that I feel confident in having mastered that character in Brawl, there is never not an option in my mind that would work in Brawl and still mostly work here. The feeling is like "you're playing your 3 month old whatever, and doing pretty well against my 6 years in training Marth", shut the **** up and give me a bit more time until you barely get hits on my Zero Suit.

Certain things like dismantling a tsunami of projectiles is really so so so easy with Marth still a majority of the time (like please, Olimar and Falco; my god). Approaching, pressuring and taking advantage against someone like Rosalina is a 1/10th of the struggle it was to do the same (and Marth was one of the only few who could) against Ice Climbers in Brawl.

What stops him in his tracks are those who can choose to never commit against him (at this stage, going for grabs isn't that much of a commitment). Top/high tiers like Falcon, Fox and Yoshi are still completely within his grasps and is entirely down to who's the better player.

I agree that Falcon and Fox aren't too bad for Marth. Maybe even an even matchup.

 

[Shaya]

Marth vs oli feels worse in this game; played against Denti in friendlies a bunch last weekend.

latched pikmin put you in some pretty intense hitlag, his recovery isn't as gimpable anymore, his jabs not worthless, and its not an easier to catch a running olimar.

In brawl marth had the frame data and aerial mobility to approach/pressure/take advantage of. He could make things happen, especially from neutral. In this game marth cant do much in neutral, its hoping your opponent messes up and you can capitalize on it. Curious why you feel like its easier then brawl when you have less tools...?

I agree that Yoshi is within his grasp, but fox and falcon I'm iffy on.

Marth on the ground just feels so lackluster. Single swing moves with lots of endlag is no bueno

Because beating those characters was about positioning and patience and universal mechanics. Marth had immediate punish options in dancing blade and dash fair and that was realistically all he was doing as a character when it came to combating them. Now it's dash grab and rar bair or still dash fair (or dash attack *gasp*). Power shield walk is still the bees knees.

Oli is a different match up in this game. Has gone from Marth advantage in Brawl to... something quite tough. His aerials are all stronger than they were beyond the buffed recovery too. I think teaching oli to respect Marth though isn't too hard. If they jump you use counter, they're floaty so the "fast fall and smash attack him" punish isn't as dangerous as other characters, grab hardly as bad either (also counter when they're in their 50/50 moment for cancelling their up b with an aerial).
Otherwise tipper hitlag modifiers seem to be even more dangerous for oli in this game, Fsmash him just as he throws a pikmin or grabs you? The grab will pull the tipper into him, the elongated hitbox from hitting something can nick him too.

I just ignore oli's side-b, Marth really doesn't have a way to get them off of him bar nair (which gives hitlag which lets oli get in for free). They're less damage than they were in Brawl and can be wiggled to get them off of you apparently (left/right)?

 

[Opossum]

So I started using Marth for like, the first time, really. I never could get into him in Melee or Brawl. Ironic I guess, considering the general consensus being that he got lots of nerfs.


Tipper is so rewarding, I tell ya. Fun, too. Marth just feels fun to me this time around.

 

[Locuan]

Tipper is so rewarding, I tell ya. Fun, too. Marth just feels fun to me this time around.

Tipper is definitely rewarding, getting those early kills or gimps are just awesome. Although, Melee Marth is amazing, and broken, and amazing, how did you not find him fun?

 

[Opossum]

Tipper is definitely rewarding, getting those early kills or gimps are just awesome. Although, Melee Marth is amazing, and broken, and amazing, how did you not find him fun?

You know, I really can't explain it.

Something just clicked this time around that didn't before I guess.

 

[LoreLes]

Marth is always going to be fun to play even with all the nerfs, but if you take his tiara away then that's when it stops being fun.

 

[Zorai]

So has anyone else noticed how Marth's up variation of dancing blade is the only one that consistently works from start to finish? Other variations usually only work if they get caught in the 2nd hit or so..

 

[Shaya]

Third hit forward to all fourth final strikes is the only one that's a guaranteed combo.
And the other forward hits combo well if you start dancing blade in the air, sometimes needing upwards on second or third strike.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So has anyone else noticed how Marth's up variation of dancing blade is the only one that consistently works from start to finish? Other variations usually only work if they get caught in the 2nd hit or so..

Late to the party my friend.

Only girls left are drunk and passed out.

 

[Zorai]

Late to the party my friend.

Only girls left are drunk and passed out.

I am the party my friend.

 

[Nowayitsj]

I'm probably late as well but something I've been doing a lot is falling down off the edge and jumping then fairing, and if they were close to the ledge ( ontop of the light at the edge of FD) or slightly more back when you faired up b is a true combo. Dont think it really matters where you hit with the sword other than it won't combo if you tipper worked from like 10-30ish against a falco every time (the up b knocks them back so not punishable, sometimes knocks up with you tho)

 

[Zorai]

Going to a customs tournament tomorrow, what are Marth's best customs? In number format please

 

[Quickhero]

Going to a customs tournament tomorrow, what are Marth's best customs? In number format please

3123 is generally the best set.
1123 is also a good set, if you have an even greater desire to break shields at the cost of quite a bit of mobility. Quite good with people such as Villager, since they kind of make Dashing Assault moot. (i.e: Timber Counter makes DA really bleh)
Since Iai Counter can be quite strict, 3121 and 1121 are viable options as well. That's really all I got. :3

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Iai counter has pretty strict timing, but it is a great move to use as a hard punish because of its kill power.

 

[Zorai]

Iai counter has pretty strict timing, but it is a great move to use as a hard punish because of its kill power.

Does Ian counter actually have more kill power? It doesn't say that

 

[Quickhero]

Does Iai counter actually have more kill power? It doesn't say that

Normal Counter goes 1.2x, Iai Counter goes 1.4x. It sending the opponent the opposite direction makes it even more lethal. It's generally worth it, but 3121 and 1121 are still options that exist. Just felt the need to tell you haha.

 

[Jerryp2]

I've found that practicing a sethlon style side b(running past and using the down variation) is a great spacing tool. I've also used the down variation for effective edge guarding, and sheld pressure. It deals around 21% damage if all hits connect, has good knockback at mid to high percents, and usually hits because the opponent doesn't know how long the hitbox lasts. Plus I think its pretty stylish haha. But the last hitbox of up b surprised me, although I rarely use it.

 

[Foodies]

This post is probably too late for @ Zorai but if you haven't practiced with crescent slash before I wouldn't recommend you run it in tourney, mostly because you will SD with it if you are not familiar with using it.

 

[kj22]

This post is probably too late for @ Zorai but if you haven't practiced with crescent slash before I wouldn't recommend you run it in tourney, mostly because you will SD with it if you are not familiar with using it.

Happened to me....so used to edge guarding low then *zipppp*....fall to my death);

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Yeah it takes some getting used to. I would suggest using 2 different custom sets one with the regular up b and one with crescent slash, but it can be easy to forget which one you have if you switch between them.

 

[Zorai]

This post is probably too late for @ Zorai but if you haven't practiced with crescent slash before I wouldn't recommend you run it in tourney, mostly because you will SD with it if you are not familiar with using it.

I had messed around with it last night, I think it's pretty godly, fthrow into crescent slash is guaranteed on pretty much the entire cast at any percent before like 120ish? **** kills early. It's also super good on battlefield cause they can't touch the platforms so long as you are within half of the stage's length LOL.

Definitely always use crescent slash if customs are legal.

Dashing assault is VERY matchup dependent. You need this against matchups like duck hunt, olimar, villager. It creates guaranteed smash attack followups. However, if you pick it, you absolutely cannot be predictable with it.

Against characters with no projectiles, you might want just regular shieldbreaker.

Always go Iai counter. No reason not to.

 

[Foodies]

Fthrow CS depends on rage, DI, and their %s :v There are some characters I wouldn't use CS against, but that's just me. DA guaranteeing smash attack followups only happens if they don't tech iirc.

How well did you do at the tourney?

 

[Zorai]

You just have to dash a bit after the fthrow, but it's definitely very reliable bread and butter which is something non-custom Marth lacks.

Didn't even enter LOL I'm going to a non-stacked local tomorrow that's even closer to my place. So I just got some free offline practice in today

Tournament had pretty much every big EC player.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Another CS believer.

Welcome to the fold brother.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Zorai I agree with CS being amazing and I always believed in it once I first heard about the true combo and customs became truly legal. However, I need to know what makes you believe that Dashing Assault is necessary versus Villager, since I really can't say that Dashing Assault has helped me at all when using it against Villager. Timber Counter is just such a killer for that since you can still trip while using DA, and you can simply jump around and run to jump around the projectiles like you need to regardless.

Meanwhile, Shieldbreaker allows Marth to potentially get a shield break after getting the Villager player to start shielding consistently, and you can ALSO actually use Timber Counter against the Villager and use it to get a Shieldbreaker off and score a broken shield to KO from there. I have a clip I'll upload shortly utilizing this, but I used F-Smash instead.

 

[kj22]

I'm a non-believer.

Marth needs that offstage game.

 

[Zorai]

@ Quickhero I actually only listed that as an example; I haven't run DA against villager yet because ironically the best villager in NYC right now has quite an aggressive playstyle. But my point was just, DA is super useful when Marth has trouble getting into close quarters. That being said, it's not really a blind approach but more of a "you hit that button so I'll hit b" kind of thing.

@ kj22 You can actually still have an offstage game with CS. Not to mention it makes you incredibly hard to gimp and is generally good for offstage shenanigans.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Zorai Well too bad, I uploaded a video that showcases how Marth can utilize Timber Counter to his advantage. Again, I used F-Smash, but it applies to Shieldbreaker as well, since it can also be used if the Villager is on the ground and needs to shield thanks to the predicament he would be in.

NOTE: Specifically, it made sure that Villager had to position there so he wouldn't trip and just immediately lose, so he had to go right into tipper range. :3

 

[kj22]

@ Quickhero I actually only listed that as an example; I haven't run DA against villager yet because ironically the best villager in NYC right now has quite an aggressive playstyle. But my point was just, DA is super useful when Marth has trouble getting into close quarters. That being said, it's not really a blind approach but more of a "you hit that button so I'll hit b" kind of thing.

@ kj22 You can actually still have an offstage game with CS. Not to mention it makes you incredibly hard to gimp and is generally good for offstage shenanigans.

not quite as well though, and the ledgesnap is different(?) Don't really get gimped as marth that much tbh, though that could help in mu where the opponent has the ability to (villager). Also if you get stagespiked with CS You. Are. Dead.

Does it still have invincibility on start-up like regular dolphin slash?

I actually sd all 3 of my stocks on battlefield with it, each time marth failing to grab the ledge and I'm just like... -__-

Not saying it doesn't have merit, just doesn't fit my playstyle, and it's very hard to unlearn years of brawl marth off stage gaming esp w/out the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you don't have the game you are prolly better off not messing with it. You really need to practice with it to see it's merit and get used to his different recovery. I consider it his best up b though.

*shrug

 

[Zorai]

@ Quickhero I see what you mean. I'm definitely going to keep that in mind next time I play Villager - camp the **** out of his sapling.

 

[Shaya]

When I was at the real hardcore Marth stage (before just playing ZSS on the whim once and being like "holy **** everything I do on Marth works on ZSS BUT BETTER") I was using dolphin slash extremely liberally in on stage game play and realistically being his best+fastest ground option in every situation, looking back at my early ZSS I feel a lot more restricted than I used to be with boost kicking aggressively because I found out Triple Jump Glitch/RCO existed and it's on her Up-B, lol (if they fix that this upcoming patch I'll take any knockback nerf on it tbqh). As a 7% tack on follow up to a lot of his hit confirms that at mid percent was safe to hit with (landing lag on DS was lowered by a bit this game).

Among other things I really like my off stage game too. Deep rising back airs, or that suddenly drastic ff nair. Hell even the shieldbreaker from time to time.

Crescent Slash is definitely a gimmick off stage. One timing, one of two results, just one Sheik/ZSS/MK/etc to show you why you should never do it again.

Dolphin Slash is like the vertical Dash Assault. It's honestly underrated as an aggressive tool over it's previous defensive nature, it doesn't have RCO anymore.

 

[kj22]

If you don't have the game you are prolly better off not messing with it. You really need to practice with it to see it's merit and get used to his different recovery. I consider it his best up b though.

*shrug

True, and if I were in a more predominant pro-custom region I'd learn and use it, but Houston is prolly going to be custom-free forever.
I've watched sets with marth using it and I agree it's really great, guaranteed damage is so good in a game where Marth has to work for each slice.

It'll be interesting to see what the incoming patch will affect (customs?)

 

[Zorai]

Are you saying you're not a hardcore marf anymore :'( don't give up on the dream

I mean yeah ZSS can do things way better but it's a totally different/faster playstyle. The only way to play marth in smash 4 is mikeneko style, that's how I feel. Now, as for how effective that style is I can't say because there are no mikenekos in smash 4 lmao there's just Marth's who think marth sucks :/

But yeah standard Dolphin Slash is super strong and if you're fast enough you can get out a lotttt of dtilt locks, jabs, etc.

Definitely more offensive I agree.