Sakurai on DLC: “It’s All About Making Players Happy”

[Wolley2xjd]

@ W Wolley2xjd

The difference is that Metroid characters can't become good fighters. I'll agree that Zelda's inclusion in Melee may not have been a good option, but Ganondorf and Sheik are undeniably good picks. LoZ is about Hyrule AND its hero, Metroid is just about Samus and what she does. Sheik and Ganondorf can be adapted into good fighters without changing too much about their canon appearances. Making Metroid characters fighters would change everything about their canon appearances.

At this point, I'm half hoping that Smash 5 DOES include a watered-down Ridley just to show that you can't make him into a good fighter without completely changing him or making him insanely OP. That way, this moronic debate can stop happening.

Hey you might want to be careful, with all those holes in your argument you might fall in one.

Ok let's break what you said.

The difference is that Metroid characters can't become good fighters.

Why?

I'll agree that Zelda's inclusion in Melee may not have been a good option, but Ganondorf and Sheik are undeniably good picks. LoZ is about Hyrule AND its hero, Metroid is just about Samus and what she does. Sheik and Ganondorf can be adapted into good fighters without changing too much about their canon appearances

Sheik is fine but Ganondorf fight's nothing like he does in the Zelda games and about that Hyrule thing, The LoZ is about saving Hyrule so with that logic Link is the only one from the Zelda series that should be playable but he isn't, as for the Metroid it's about saving the universe from anything from Space pirate's to the X-Parasite but that really doesn't matter in this context.


At this point, I'm half hoping that Smash 5 DOES include a watered-down Ridley just to show that you can't make him into a good fighter without completely changing him or making him insanely OP. That way, this moronic debate can stop happening

I'll just leave this here.

http://smashboards.com/threads/unof...sed-dl-link-and-instal-tutorial-in-op.368694/

My advice to you is to fully think about something you're about to post, because if you don't you'll end up looking silly, also one more thing.

Spoiler

Tone it down a notch.

 

[MintyGuy700]

Based on a video made by a youtube channel which makes funny videos and some good smash tips, you conclude that there is discontent between competitive players and normal people?

There is no war. If there is, its between Competitive gamers themselves. Casual haters vs. normal competitive players.
The casual haters blame casuals for the game not being competitive enough(no l-cancelling). They see them as a threat , while casuals are simply the majority anyhow. Normal competitive players are simply telling the haters to lay off. The haters are usually ex-melee players who are still.....still...butthurt.

There is no real community divide, if there is its between the dedicated and the dedicated. Not the normal gamers who play "sometimes for an hour with friends"

Well, all of this is true, though when I said casual vs competitive I meant in general, not that I meant the discontent lies between all players.

 

[CptJPuff]

tbh I think DLC kind of ruins Smash. Buying characters that should have been in the game at launch just doesn't seem right to me. If the development team of Smash 4 would've delayed the game for these characters becoming DLC, I would've been fine with that.

Goodbye, Smash 4, I don't want to buy your DLC.

Ah, the good ol' Melee days. No DLC, nothing to worry about.

(Flame Bait Activated )

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

tbh I think DLC kind of ruins Smash. Buying characters that should have been in the game at launch just doesn't seem right to me. If the development team of Smash 4 would've delayed the game for these characters becoming DLC, I would've been fine with that.

Goodbye, Smash 4, I don't want to buy your DLC.

Ah, the good ol' Melee days. No DLC, nothing to worry about.

Sorry, but if DLC goes over well, it's going to stay in Smash. Besides that, it gives more options for characters and chances for other characters that didn't make the cut the first time to actually get into the game.

And considering Nintendo's amazing handling of DLC, this is less paywalling and more "here's some more content for the game you payed 60 dollars for only a few dollars!"

 

[Charmilio]

Development is more costly than ever

sorry, but this just flat-out isn't true. with nintendo's (fairly recent) horrendous business choices I can't help but see this as a really flimsy justification for charging for content that people were in a uproar about since day 1 and capitalizing on it because they knew there was demand. the rise of indies is more than enough proof, and with freeware making a bit of a resurgence, it's more than obvious that development/distribution is cheaper and easier than ever, not to mention all the free advertising from youtube (which again, nintendo stupidly decided to forgo so they could make a revenue) allows for free publicity, where that used to be a huge factor in a games overall sales. I get that Nintendo has to produce a boatload of content and deal with a bunch of licenses, but companies like CD Projekt and Bioware arguably produce even more content per-title than Nintendo does, and I've not once heard them use 'development costs' as a justification for paid DLC. not that that'll stop anyone from purchasing it of course, I mean hey, when the Roy DLC gets announced, people will be lining up all down the block to get it. Yes, it should be about pleasing the players, but as we've seen historically Sakurai's been a pretty mixed bag when it comes to player reception when he's actually trying for it. I also just can't justify having to own 2 consoles just to have the ability to purchase DLC. "Want to play as a low-tier character that you'll buy for the nostalgia factor alone? Well, that's all fine and good, but you better shell out $300+ just for the chance!" Not to mention their terrible policy of locking DLC to hardware and not accounts, it's all just a fat recipe for failure.

 

[Doval]

sorry, but this just flat-out isn't true.

Sorry, but it flat-out is. See for example this article. It's from 2004, which is 1-2 years before HD consoles started to hit the market and well before HDTVs were commonplace.

And by the way, games have gotten cheaper. Cartridges were expensive; many people paid $70 or $80 for Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask cartridges. And that's 70-80 1998 dollars, so it's even more after inflation.

These days you can't make a retail game for a console without stunning HD graphics, FMVs, and voice acting. That stuff ain't cheap. And who do you think's fixing the bugs in the balance patches? Back in the day you'd ship the disc and let the players deal with whatever bugs slipped through QA.

The scope of a Smash game is way beyond what any indie dev can accomplish. There's simply too much content.

 

[Crimson Ace]

I'm really grateful at the fact that he decided to continue doing all of this despite him intending Brawl and Melee to be the last smash games. With DLC, it should keep the series fresh for a couple more years.

 

[SHiFT_]

Or from smash 64 to melee.

Well, I was really referring to the amount of hatred Brawl received, which made Sakurai realize his faults and offer more competitive gameplay in Smash 4.

Smash 64 was great and Melee was better, simply because Sakurai worked with what made 64 great rather than trying to change it.

 

[Knight Dude]

This is pretty interesting. Happy to see Sakurai being positive to DLC is cool.

 

[LandMaster]

Well, I was really referring to the amount of hatred Brawl received, which made Sakurai realize his faults and offer more competitive gameplay in Smash 4.

Smash 64 was great and Melee was better, simply because Sakurai worked with what made 64 great rather than trying to change it.

Really great summary, explains the four games perfectly

Experiment>perfect revision>anti competitive>more competitive

 

[CNMNE]

Does the ballot even matter? Our responses are gonna be so fragmented that there are probably waaaaaaay too few people that nintendo could agree on. They'll probably end up with someone that isn't super anticipated. Or someone stupid. (Lookin @ u Ridley)

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

. Or someone stupid. (Lookin @ u Ridley)

u wanna go m8? >_>

But seriously, voting for the primary antagonist of a million-selling franchise isn't "stupid", it's fighting for the same cause we've been fighting for since, for some at least, the beginning of the series; and if we shut up about it because "it's stupid", that'll just "prove" to the people that matter that the Ridley support was a fad and nothing more.

Giving up isn't the way of this clique; either he gets in or we go out fighting.

 

[CNMNE]

u wanna go m8? >_>...
Giving up isn't the way of this clique; either he gets in or we go out fighting.

lol, no offense to you man, totes respect going down swinging(my profile is Tails for goodness sakes), but we're all logical adults… Probably. Ridley wouldn't make sense in the game, AT ALL. unless he was so incredibly nerfed that it was sort of sad, he couldn't get in without being the most broken character in the game. if you have an explanation, i would actually love to hear how he isn't going to be totally unrealistic.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

lol, no offense to you man, totes respect going down swinging(my profile is Tails for goodness sakes), but we're all logical adults… Probably. Ridley wouldn't make sense in the game, AT ALL. unless he was so incredibly nerfed that it was sort of sad, he couldn't get in without being the most broken character in the game. if you have an explanation, i would actually love to hear how he isn't going to be totally unrealistic.

Well, that's pretty simple; because someone's already made the perfect playable Ridley in Smash.
I don't even need to really explain it, because that mod is exactly how Ridley should be like in Smash, down to the letter. Maybe it needs a few nerfs, but as it is it is incredibly well-balanced.

 

[CNMNE]

I gotta admit, its a nice mod, but you're right it'll need quite a few nerfs. Like, a lot. But that mod complies with my point, "unless he was so incredibly nerfed that it was sort of sad..." I meant nerfed with regards to the Metroid series. A Ridley in Sm4sh just wouldn't be Ridley. If he does make it in though, I'll hit you up for a 1v1.

 

[CNMNE]

Well, that's pretty simple; because someone's already made the perfect playable Ridley in Smash.
I don't even need to really explain it, because that mod is exactly how Ridley should be like in Smash, down to the letter. Maybe it needs a few nerfs, but as it is it is incredibly well-balanced.

lol, forgot to reply, a bit too hype

 

[Bearbuddy4]

lol, forgot to reply, a bit too hype

Daddy? Why won't you come home and take care of us?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

tbh I think DLC kind of ruins Smash. Buying characters that should have been in the game at launch just doesn't seem right to me. If the development team of Smash 4 would've delayed the game for these characters becoming DLC, I would've been fine with that.

Goodbye, Smash 4, I don't want to buy your DLC.

Ah, the good ol' Melee days. No DLC, nothing to worry about.

This is the kind of ignorance that gives a bad rep to Smash players.

Making a game is far more complicated that you think, the devs not only work on characters but on the engine, modes, stage design, balance and testing, etc. Plus they have to meet a deadline as well so simply having delayed both games until June of this year just for two characters is not feasible at all and is not as simple as it may sound.

There is no way that Mewtwo and Lucas were going to be ready at launch because they were not finished, the fact that they are taking their time in working on them after release proves this.

It's also kind of stupid the Melee comparison here. Melee could have also benefited from DLC since there were characters intended for the game that never made it in like Wario and Dedede, who weren't left out out of malice. Is better to have them added later than excluding them at all.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

@Dastardly Ridleylash I agree, there is no doubt his reasons for not including Ridley as playable are entirely BS, he, like many people who make their day by using "Too Big" as a legitimate argument don't seem to have done a lot of research on Metroid, just knowing that the protagonist in a woman in a kickass suit and pretty much just leaving it as that, and boy do they make sure we know she's a lady.

Honestly if being Big is a HUGE part of Ridey then what's Kraid's thing, being fat?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

@Dastardly Ridleylash I agree, there is no doubt his reasons for not including Ridley as playable are entirely BS, he, like many people who make their day by using "Too Big" as a legitimate argument don't seem to have done a lot of research on Metroid, just knowing that the protagonist in a woman in a kickass suit and pretty much just leaving it as that, and boy do they make sure we know she's a lady.

Honestly if being Big is a HUGE part of Ridey then what's Kraid's thing, being fat?

He is not really wrong though, at least from a subjective point that's just how he feels about the character. It's a personal perspective and not something that can be attributed to "lack of research" ; and even so is not like supervisors don't oversee the handling of the content.

 

[Kasran]

"Ridley is too big!"
Baby Ridley for Sm4sh -Definitely Good Idea of the Year 2015

I'd like to point something out: if the designers of the characters hewed completely to the gameplay of their original games, Mario wouldn't be able to use the fireball and the cape at the same time without switching powerups. Falco wouldn't even be a thing, because in the Star Fox games I don't think he's ever seen outside of his Arwing during gameplay. Give game designers some leeway to modify characters to better suit fighting games.

Anyway, isn't Ridley already in Pyrosphere or something?
(I know that's not a valid argument, because if he were a character then you could have four Ridleys facing off at the same time. I'm just being silly.)

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

You know, seeing him be so well minded and just knowing how not to be an asshole really makes me appreciate the game that much more.
(points taken off for rage effect and footstool though...)
But GG you made and are making here Sakurai

 

[Seanp12]

As a Ridley fan, I have no problem with him not being in the game, because he would be a difficult fighter to make. Not impossible, however. But given that there were so many unique new characters added, I'm not excessively disappointed. That mod is good, but not perfect, though a lot of people seem to look at it with confirmation bias. (i.e. if you're against Ridley, it needs to be nerfed; if you're for Ridley, it's perfect)

I think that a large portion of this debate is hurt through a lack of imagination. Anti-Ridley people have a particular Ridley in mind, and anything short of that will not do. It's an unrealistic mindset. Pro-Ridley people are far less picky or, like me, are interested in seeing what Sakurai and his team could do if they committed to making Ridley into a fighter. Sakurai and co. are veritable videogame geniuses--who knows what they could do if they put their minds to it?

The nasty attitude towards Sakurai and the costume clones severely hurts the argument also. Bitter Donkey Kong and Metroid fans have lost a lot of credit for raging at Sakurai for his minor tweaks that created Lucina and Dark Pit. If he had known that a spot on a screen mattered so much to people, I'm sure he wouldn't have bothered. Regardless, I've seen the Ridley fanbase get a lot of unjustified hate, but by tearing down Sakurai and the clones, they create a justification for the anti-Ridley crowd's mockery of Ridley fans.

I think that if Sakurai were willing to commit to making Ridley, he would, and it would be pretty amazing. Nonetheless, I believe that he will focus on fan requests that are easier to fulfill instead, such as K. Rool, the cut veterans, and other characters that would be less work. Maybe if he gets some new ideas for making Ridley work, he will, but given the difficulty, it's unlikely.

But not impossible.

 

[Haydossy]

HE SAID NEW MODES. TARGET SMASH SUBSPACE TOURNEY BOARD THE PLATFORMS ADVENTURE TROPHY LOTTERY BOSS RUSH AND, THE MOST MISSED MODE OF ALL.....







































chronicle.

 

[Wolley2xjd]

As a Ridley fan, I have no problem with him not being in the game, because he would be a difficult fighter to make. Not impossible, however. But given that there were so many unique new characters added, I'm not excessively disappointed. That mod is good, but not perfect, though a lot of people seem to look at it with confirmation bias. (i.e. if you're against Ridley, it needs to be nerfed; if you're for Ridley, it's perfect)

I think that a large portion of this debate is hurt through a lack of imagination. Anti-Ridley people have a particular Ridley in mind, and anything short of that will not do. It's an unrealistic mindset. Pro-Ridley people are far less picky or, like me, are interested in seeing what Sakurai and his team could do if they committed to making Ridley into a fighter. Sakurai and co. are veritable videogame geniuses--who knows what they could do if they put their minds to it?

The nasty attitude towards Sakurai and the costume clones severely hurts the argument also. Bitter Donkey Kong and Metroid fans have lost a lot of credit for raging at Sakurai for his minor tweaks that created Lucina and Dark Pit. If he had known that a spot on a screen mattered so much to people, I'm sure he wouldn't have bothered. Regardless, I've seen the Ridley fanbase get a lot of unjustified hate, but by tearing down Sakurai and the clones, they create a justification for the anti-Ridley crowd's mockery of Ridley fans.

I think that if Sakurai were willing to commit to making Ridley, he would, and it would be pretty amazing. Nonetheless, I believe that he will focus on fan requests that are easier to fulfill instead, such as K. Rool, the cut veterans, and other characters that would be less work. Maybe if he gets some new ideas for making Ridley work, he will, but given the difficulty, it's unlikely.

But not impossible.

I love the mod that Bagan has made but i'll neversaid it was perfect because if I did that would mean that I would just play project m and never ever touch smash 4, I seen people complain but never fully rage at clone's, I dislike dark pit has a fighter but not has character and I would never say somthing like "Sakurai can go **** himself for making him his own fighter" but at the same time I will complain because I feel that he had so much going for him but he ended being a boring clone when has no right being so (in my opinion) and here's something if they knew that DLC was going to be a thing then why didn't they jusy hold off at making dark pit clone and used the time to make him in to his own character?

Donkey kong fans have a right to be mad, I mean if the DK series was so popular then why hasn't it gotten a new fighter?

Dixie

Cranky

King K.Rool

Hell I'd take Lanky kong and same thing applies to the Metroid fan's, if Sakurai "knew" he could make Ridley a fighter then why not
Dark Samus?

I'm not saying that the DK and Metroid fan's that act nasty about it are in the right in fact they're quite wrong, Smash brothers is a video game and people seen to forget that a lot, I make fun of Sakurai's "reasoning" on why Ridley isn't playable because it's flawed to the point where I can stick my whole arm in it. (something else but i'll keep it PG-13. )

I also disagree with his reasoning of clone's but respect that at least (even tho the way he said didn't make any sense but what eves)

It's not a matter of if Rildey can work we seen people do it before, it's when sakurai thinks he'll be able to make him into a fighter that's feel's right to play has. (And hopefully he won't be another ganondorf "cough cough accurateportrayals cough" )

 

[Seanp12]

I'm not singling out any one person. I'm referencing the general attitude of DK and Metroid fans. There are far more people than just them who are angry about the clones, but those two fanbases moreso, and (as you said) not without reason. It is a pity, since the Metroid series is my favorite of Nintendo's properties, and I greatly enjoy the Retro DKC games also.

if they knew that DLC was going to be a thing then why didn't they jusy hold off at making dark pit clone and used the time to make him in to his own character?

I don't think that they did know. After all, until April 1, Sakurai had said that there would be no DLC besides Mewtwo. It's a relatively recent decision, probably made long after Dark Pit was split from Pit. I would have preferred a worthwhile Dark Pit myself (KIU is my favorite portable game of all time, and the weapons system left no lack of potential for Pittoo), although he probably would still take unjust hatred for raising Kid Icarus above DK and Metroid.

Donkey kong fans have a right to be mad, I mean if the DK series was so popular then why hasn't it gotten a new fighter?

I can't really say. K. Rool might have been overlooked because Sakurai doubted his likelihood to reappear in a main series game, but Dixie and Cranky don't have that problem. (While I'm not actively voting for him or anything, Cranky is probably my second most-wanted character for Smash)

Sakurai "knew" he could make Ridley a fighter then why not
Dark Samus?

I don't quite understand what you mean, but I can guess. Perhaps Dark Samus was in Wario's Melee situation. What I mean by that is: perhaps he had Dark Samus in mind as a clone, but thought she was worth more effort and should wait until he had more ideas. Or perhaps he doubted her likelihood to reappear given that the Prime series concluded with her death.

If you're wondering why I keep mentioning the likelihood to reappear, I'm fairly certain that I read him mentioning that as one of the things he takes into account when choosing characters. Both K. Rool and Dark Samus have that problem. But given Sakurai's fluid criteria, who knows?


Sakurai's reasoning on Ridley is rather ridiculous, particularly because of Captain Falcondorf, but the thing about clones makes sense. Lucina would basically be Marth if she still had his sword tip gimmick. It's no different than if you picked out Samus' Dark Samus colors and gave her charge shot a poisoning effect from Phazon.


Speaking of that, I do wish that Samus had actual costumes instead of colors. I'd be playing the Light Suit all day.

 

[Raethien]

Or, you know, he could just think Sakurai's reasonings are bull**** and is calling him out on it. That's reasonable, too. :/

And to be honest, Sakurai has been pretty bad at choosing newcomers this time; we now have almost a complete top row (on the 3DS game) of nothing but Mario characters. :/ That's a bit too much even for the flagship of Nintendo. Not to mention Kid Icarus, a franchise with only three games, also got three characters (one which was a barely-altered clone), while it's more popular sister Metroid, which has had seven games (not counting spinoff titles) still only has one character; Samus. The only newcomers I think were really keepers are the Mii Fighters, Villager, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Dr. Mario and Bowser Junior; everyone else was either really poor clones (Lucina, Dark Pit), really shouldn't have been priority (Wii Fit Trainer) or just a bit too similar to other characters (Greninja). Defend Sakurai all you want, but he's neglecting big franchises just to advertise Uprising, which was already a year old by the time the game released.

We still don't have any other Metroid characters, Donkey Kong still is missing a main character and meanwhile Kid Icarus, a franchise that was dead in the water for 20 years, not only has three characters, one of which is a piss-poor clone, it gets three stages, the most enemies of any franchise in Smash Run, an Assist Trophy and the most trophies of any franchise. Meanwhile, Metroid has one character (with an alternate playstyle), two stages, few enemies in Smash Run, a small amount of trophies and two Assist Trophies.

It just reeks of favoritism, since Metroid is infinitely more significant to Nintendo's, and gaming as a whole's, history than Kid Icarus is; but apparently Kid Icarus is more important to Sakurai, and that's all that matters.

People defending Sakurai just need to accept that the man can be at fault, and at times even an outright fibber; getting horribly defensive about someone daring to criticize Sakurai for poor choices isn't helping anybody.

Just saying dont complain about Dark Pit and Lucina if you are not going to complain about Doctor Mario. Thats very hipocritical.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Just saying dont complain about Dark Pit and Lucina if you are not going to complain about Doctor Mario. Thats very hipocritical.

Doctor Mario has at least one different move to Mario, though; neither EmoDark Pit and Lucina have any moves that Pit and Marth don't have.

 

[NoMarthLeftBehind]

When did this become a war zone over why/not having certain characters and effort?

 

[CNMNE]

When did this become a war zone over why/not having certain characters and effort?

When Ridleylash got salty because Ridley is pretty unrealistic. Unless Ridley is changed fundamentally like Seanp12 said (which wouldn't be crazy since most characters aren't true to their game) he will NOT get in…..

Thats when.

 

[CNMNE]

@Dastardly Ridleylash I agree, there is no doubt his reasons for not including Ridley as playable are entirely BS, he, like many people who make their day by using "Too Big" as a legitimate argument don't seem to have done a lot of research on Metroid...

While I don't know everything about Metroid, I don't have to be an expert to know that someone who takes up the whole screen wouldn't be legit in Sm4sh. Ever. If they made Rayquaza from Subspace Emissary or Bulborb a character, you're saying that would be ok?

 

[Wolley2xjd]

When Ridleylash got salty because Ridley is pretty unrealistic. Unless Ridley is changed fundamentally like Seanp12 said (which wouldn't be crazy since most characters aren't true to their game) he will NOT get in…..

Thats when.

Salty, really that's the one thing you got from all of that?

While I don't know everything about Metroid, I don't have to be an expert to know that someone who takes up the whole screen wouldn't be legit in Sm4sh. Ever. If they made Rayquaza from Subspace Emissary or Bulborb a character, you're saying that would be ok?

OK let me prove you wrong with two pictures.

This is Super Metroid size, please note how small his wings are and how easy it would be to resize him.

Seen's find to me, please when on this topic please do a little research before making yourself look like a fool.

When did this become a war zone over why/not having certain characters and effort?

Welcome to Smashboards.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Welcome to Smashboards.

You should have said "Welcome to the Super Smash Bros. fandom".

 

[Wolley2xjd]

You should have said "Welcome to the Super Smash Bros. fandom".

Here's a better one, Welcome to the internet.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

Here's a better one, Welcome to the internet.

That's actually much better.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

While I don't know everything about Metroid, I don't have to be an expert to know that someone who takes up the whole screen wouldn't be legit in Sm4sh. Ever. If they made Rayquaza from Subspace Emissary or Bulborb a character, you're saying that would be ok?

Fun Fact, Smash Bros is actually Ridley's Biggest appearance

 

[Wolley2xjd]

Fun Fact, Smash Bros is actually Ridley's Biggest appearance

Spoiler

 

[Dynamo68]

This news leaves me hope that the Ice Climbers will be DLC.

 

[The-Power-Within]

Sakurai, are you trying to make me give you my money? Because you're succeeding. Although you've already given me my Brawl main back, so I'm satisfied. Although Roy would be nice

 

[CNMNE]

OK let me prove you wrong with two pictures.
This is Super Metroid size, please note how small his wings are and how easy it would be to resize him.

Ugh, Super Metroid is ONE game. He's appeared more times than that in ways that defined his size.

Besides, Sm4sh would be contradicting itself pretty badly if it had a bowser sized Ridley while in Pyrosphere he's already huge.

Finally, if you'd read my original post, you would have seen that I said "They'll probably end up with someone that isn't super anticipated. Or someone stupid. (Lookin @ u Ridley)" I think he'll make it, he's just stupid.