S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

[metaXzero]

Both completely remove aerial lag. S-canceling is just simpler to do (which shouldn't matter). I fail to see what makes this different from Z-canceling when it comes to spammyness of aerials.

 

[kupo15]

Both completely remove aerial lag. S-canceling is just simpler to do (which shouldn't matter). I fail to see what makes this different from Z-canceling when it comes to spammyness of aerials.

Well, unlike z cancel, you powershield after your lagless attacks so you cant get punished like z canceling. You dont see ppl in 64 spamming their best aerials recklessly like you see with s canceling ganons

 

[metaXzero]

Oh yeah. The lack of Shield-stun. In 64, shield stun was so high that you ran the risk of being put into a shield break combo (which could be followed up by a death combo). So shielding was always risky. Now I get it.

Isn't their anyone working on a shield-stun code though?

 

[kupo15]

Isn't their anyone working on a shield-stun code though?

Look in the competitive hacks thread.

 

[Dan_X]

Well, unlike z cancel, you powershield after your lagless attacks so you cant get punished like z canceling. You dont see ppl in 64 spamming their best aerials recklessly like you see with s canceling ganons

Exactly.

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

i feel with the auto cancel code makes the game way too easy. I know we're not trying to make it melee, but at least with the S-cancel code u can make mistakes.

 

[kupo15]

i feel with the auto cancel code makes the game way too easy. I know we're not trying to make it melee, but at least with the S-cancel code u can make mistakes.

lol how so? All you have to do is hold down the shield button and spam aerials. The shield auto pops up, you have 0 lag instead of half lag, AND your powershield protects you from any "mistakes."

 

[metaXzero]

i feel with the auto cancel code makes the game way too easy. I know we're not trying to make it melee, but at least with the S-cancel code u can make mistakes.

What Kupo said PLUS you don't play with the thought "What if they miss an L-cancel"? You assume they will get every important time (which is what most do).

 

[MBlaze]

Lol theres no argument for S cancelling, that crap is broken. Imagine auto S canceling... omg that would overkill Brawl. xD

 

[metaXzero]

Lol theres no argument for S cancelling, that crap is broken. Imagine auto S canceling... omg that would overkill Brawl. xD

64 had Z-canceling (which also zero lag) but that didn't break the game. It was the obcene amount of hitstun that made the game broken. S-canceling is only slightly broken due to the lack of shield-stun.

 

[rugoodat]

Where the hell did you get SSB64 is broken from >_____________>

It's not broken

 

[Dan_X]

meta, seriously man, who are you kidding? How do you see past S-canceling's brokenness?

 

[Wind Owl]

Where the hell did you get SSB64 is broken from >_____________>

It's not broken

It's the most balanced of all three games.

 

[kupo15]

64 had Z-canceling (which also zero lag) but that didn't break the game. It was the obcene amount of hitstun that made the game broken. S-canceling is only slightly broken due to the lack of shield-stun.

i still think it was poor DI but eh. Look at it how you want

 

[metaXzero]

Where the hell did you get SSB64 is broken from >_____________>

It's not broken

Gameplay wise it's considered broken. 1 hit can easily lead to an inescapable death combo (like Marvel vs Capcom 2). On the bright side, nearly everyone can do some sort of death combo, so it's more balanced then Melee and Brawl.

meta, seriously man, who are you kidding? How do you see past S-canceling's brokenness?

Does S-canceling lead to oodles of infinites and simple death combos? Does it make a bunch of characters crap and others gods? That is the question...

 

[metaXzero]

i still think it was poor DI but eh. Look at it how you want

It only had Smash DI.

 

[zxeon]

S-cancel is broken.
I was over at a friends house for the weekend and I noticed that the auto cancel code has S-canceling in it and I don't like it. How Do I get rid of it?

 

[kupo15]

uncheck s cancel in ocarina and export it

 

[storm92]

S-canceling isn't really an option here, and as I see it manual L-canceling is slowly losing the argument.
It's pretty much down to auto L-cancel and M-canceling now.
There, I'm torn.

 

[Starscream]

I'm not stubborn and I can be swayed and a lot of the auto L-cancel points have been doing a good job. But still, I do hope for an L-cancel code where window for hitting it is closer to the ground (more Melee-esque I guess, it just feels less awkward). You know for those that might want to switch between the two for preference sake.

 

[zxeon]

I was playing Gears of War 2 today and I noticed that the active reload on that game is almost exactly like manual L-canceling. Sure pros will seldom miss it but would the game be better without it? Would it lose some of it's personality without it? Most certainly. Something to think about.

 

[metaXzero]

Aaah...

My random Melee thread about L-canceling showed that in the end, people over there feel strongly about manual L-canceling because they feel challenged and feel accomplished when they L-cancel (despite the utter simplicity of it).

Just throwing that out there. As a reminder, I'm pro-Auto-L-cancel (M-cancel if its created).

 

[metaXzero]

I was playing Gears of War 2 today and I noticed that the active reload on that game is almost exactly like manual L-canceling. Sure pros will seldom miss it but would the game be better without it? Would it lose some of it's personality without it? Most certainly. Something to think about.

Someone made that SAME comparison in my L-cancel thread in the Melee boards (or 1 w1nged @ngel's Brawl+ thread. I don't remember).

The problem though is that if you mess up your auto-reload, you get a jammed gun. So if you don't want to take the risk, their is normal reloading.

That invalidates a comparison of AR with Manual L-canceling.

Possible DP.

 

[Yeroc]

I'd repost MookieRah's arguments here in favor of S-canceling, but there are lots and they work better in context with what the other people were saying. Just go to the hitstun thread, or someone else repost them if they feel like it.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Continued from the discussion in the other thread...

SketchHurricane. You would get ***** if you spammed Ike's F-air like that. It still has some start-up and it can't lead into anything else. It's not OPed. Same for Ganny's attacks. No Heavy suddenly becomes god.

Of course, it would be easy to pick up on. Why do you think I included the non-noob example? I already spam fair to jab combo in regular Brawl. It's ****-near un-punishable with S-cancel. The only way would be to catch them in the start-up, but then you spaced it wrong anyway, in which case it doesn't matter which Brawl your playing. Even spot-dodging would be extremely risky with an instant jab combo coming out to save Ike's *** every time.

Ike, for example. He's far from the best character in the game. Having a more usable Fair doesn't suddenly overshadow his list of flaws. Furthermore, your Ike example would have a stale Fair rather quickly.

Staleness has nothing to do with my point. His other flaws have nothing to do with my point. My point is that a balanced move suddenly becomes godly, and that is not a good side effect, whether the character becomes godly or not (good in relation to the intentions of Brawl+, mind you).

...As for Ganon's Fair, I've found that s-canceling can often cut off the hitbox from appearing near the ground where it is needed in a SHFFL. And, as MookieRah mentioned, he no longer has a (quick) jab or any sort of follow-up for it.

Tru dat, and Ganon is a good example of a character that can't become broken from S-cancel. It's because he has no quick ground options. Ike's fair has clear uses that become way better combined with a lightning quick jab, Ganon's fair is a bad idea on the ground as it is, and Brawl+ won't change that.

Follow up options are besides the point anyway, I'm talking about the moves themselves becoming unbalanced. But if you want to talk about follow ups, think about it some more. If we create a situation, caused by 0 lag, where a simple mix-up becomes ****-near impenetrable, what are we going to fall back on to beat it? Defense, that's what. Remember that the shield is still broken too, and if options out of shield are the only thing that is going to beat the broken offense, we're just re-creating the same situations we were trying to get out of! A game dominated by defense, only this time for the opposite reason. This is why I believe S-cancel is not the end of the story. Don't just think about the short period of tests we've run thus far, think about what kind of meta-game is going to evolve from a game of extremes.

Kupo already said that though.

Finally, how many hours have those of you that think S-canceling is broken actually used it?

I'll admit, not much. I used Ike in my initial experience with S-cancel, and immediately discovered something I felt was broken. I had a bad impression right off the bat. I'm not writing it off - never said I was - but I **** sure not calling it the solution before we've even tried shield nerfs.

We're looking for the simplest way to make the most useful changes for the betterment of the game, from a competitive standpoint. Frankly, while a sheild stun code might bring the game more in line with what you are envisioning in terms of rebalancing or addressing any other number of issues, I'm looking at the game as it is with S-canceling and see a perfectly acceptable means to an end already. Just because it's not the solution you were looking for doesn't mean it's not a solution.

What I just wrote /\. But that's pretty much where we differ. You see it as a perfectly acceptable means, I see it as acceptable only in the absence of something better.

 

[Shell]

I don't play any Ike mains, so I would enjoy a video of you (or anyone) dominating a competent player by spamming Ike's fair. Also:

Staleness has nothing to do with my point. His other flaws have nothing to do with my point. My point is that a balanced move suddenly becomes godly, and that is not a good side effect, whether the character becomes godly or not (good in relation to the intentions of Brawl+, mind you).

Sure, it's not a great side effect, but it doesn't matter. I think that you cannot just cut a move out of context. The fact that that the move will become stale, and that Ike still has his flaws cannot be ignored. Yes, perhaps Ike will have a "god move," but seeing as that won't make him a "god character" it is irrelevant. Furthermore, the fair is not completely unpunishable, as it still has a rather hefty wind-up.

Edit: For example, take this match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQbfUXIqrSQ

Two very competent players. The Ike attempts to spam the s-canceled fair at a few different points, yet ultimately loses the match to a combination of Ike's other shortcomings and the Peach's skill. The Peach often does not allow the Ike player enough time to even start the fair.

 

[kupo15]

Well then, if you don't think that it is "overpowered" and you had no intention of claiming it is "overpowered" then how is it bad?

What!? I said Ganon's Fair and moves like it wasn't overpowered. S canceling is overpowered.

Because MK is already borderline too good, and adjusting shield stun seems like something that could easily tip things.

MK will always be good no matter what. He will always have it easier than everyone else. Shields also recover really fast so once you block the tornado, you can run. It shield pokes so you shouldnt be at risk for shield break if your smart with your shield

That is a poor argument. You are arguing creators intent yet you are wanting to change the game more than I am. Nintendo can't balance **** anyways. Ganon, Ike, DK, D3, Snake, and Charizard aren't broken because of S-canceling. In fact, the people who sucked the most before (Ganon and Ike) are now actually DECENT because of S-canceling, and the better characters (DK, Snake, and D3) don't get as much out of it.

Funny how that got twisted around. Idc about creators intent cause obviously they dont intend what we are doing. But isn't usually Slow and strong, fast and weak? Not fast and strong.

Those combos wouldn't work on a human opponent. DI and teching can prevent pretty much everything in that vid. Ganon can only string stuff together at low percents, after that he just lands single big hits.

lol, way to completely ignore the rest of that section of the post. That is with hitstun 1.2 (aka 3E0CCCCD) and ppl are around 10-15% more than that (3F0CCCCD) Yea I do combos similar to those against my friends who are good at DI. Idk why you downplay Ganon so much.

I'm sure I would find my way around it too. How can that one move cause so much trouble? It has a lot of startup time, and he is forced to shield after using it. Sure, it might be devastating against your main, but other characters can break it. Heck, I know Falcon can.

haha, underestimating ganon yet again and what a good player can do with him. I don't add personal feelings like "bad against my main" in the mix. Would you expect a good ganon to beat a good Pit?

I think that adding more and more stuff when we have already achieved a decent balance isn't the right path. I think anecdotal evidence and feelings are a poor measure of what is or isn't broken. You guys want to readjust another factor of the game simply because the current solution isn't the way you envisioned Brawl+ to be. There is nothing wrong with S-canceling. Myself and many others have been TRYING to break the game with it, but to no avail. It simply makes slow characters more viable, as it gives them great approaches. Go back and re-read my section about the slow characters options out of an S-cancel and argue those. None of you actually spent much time debating about that, yet that is what this argument is about when you get right down to it. None of you seem to even realize that a Dedede fair -> grab is actually way better than Ganon's fair or Ike's fair. I know this, and I still don't think S-canceling is remotely broken.

We are not adding anything new. We are simply fixing the broken game mechanic. Shields in melee were perfect and had shield stun so why not continue what worked well? I dont see why you would add s cancel when melees half lag worked well with shield stun.

EDIT:

If we create a situation, caused by 0 lag, where a simple mix-up becomes ****-near impenetrable, what are we going to fall back on to beat it? Defense, that's what. Remember that the shield is still broken too, and if options out of shield are the only thing that is going to beat the broken offense, we're just re-creating the same situations we were trying to get out of! A game dominated by defense, only this time for the opposite reason. This is why I believe S-cancel is not the end of the story. Don't just think about the short period of tests we've run thus far, think about what kind of meta-game is going to evolve from a game of extremes.

QFT

 

[MookieRah2]

OK guys, as Yeroc stated I'm going to actually move my debate from the Hitstun thread and over here to where it really belongs.

I will start this post by saying a few things. First, I advocate using auto l-cancel AND S-canceling. This way some of the fast characters actually have moves that l-cancel slightly faster than S-canceling, and it also lessens the ridiculous amount of lag from the heavy characters.

Secondly, most EVERYTHING I have seen in the anti- S-canceling argument is based on anecdotal evidence and emotions. I have people telling me that it's broken, but not explaining why. There are people telling me it's not balanced, yet don't explain why.

Third, S-canceling doesn't really remove all lag. People say that all the time, but they fail to realize that in order to attack the shield has to come up and drop. That takes time. Sure, it's fast, but it's been made out to be near instantaneous. People also don't understand that S-canceling has a built in awkwardness because of this, as it forces the player on the offensive into a temporary defensive position. That is another benefit of S-canceling, as any character can opt to cancel their aerial at any time to be defensive. It doesn't just add better offense, it adds a bit to defense as well. Keep that in mind.

Lastly, my comments on slow characters are based around these characters: Bowser(my bad, dunno how I could forget him!), Charizard, D3, DK, Ganon, Ike, and Snake.

Now I will address some actual issues that people have:

Heavy characters become fast!
The idea that the heavy hitters become fast with S-canceling is simply not true. Their characters are based in power > speed. Their attacks tend to have long startup times, and they have very few fast moves on the ground and the air and they typically have poor land and air speed. Often their attacks are so powerful that it swats the opponent away, preventing any follow up.. S-canceling does not fix these things.

Heavy characters can spam their big aerial attacks now!
Lets take a look at each of these characters and their aerials, and lets think about what could make them broken or overpowered. Of the six characters, the two that are considered among the worst (Ike and Ganon) gain the ability to use their powerful and long reaching fairs. Both Ike and Ganon's fairs rack up a good deal of damage, but they aren't very good finishers because they knock opponents upwards and away. They are basically for spacing and swatting opponents. Both of these characters had an incredibly hard time with camping and projectile spam. A large part of that is because they had virtually no good approaches, and being slow doesn't help things. With S-canceling, they have a new, safe, and effective approach that allows them to pressure their opponent.

The better characters, Snake, D3, and DK don't get as much out of it. Snake's aerial game is still lackluster, and S-canceling doesn't change that. D3's bair is still better for making an approach, however, I hear that he can fair shields and get a free grab. While that may sound broken, it's very similar to how both Bowser and Wario have an "aerial grab" of sorts. Considering that players have gotten around those, it's something that one would simply have to learn how to fight against. DK, well, his fair, uair, and dair are poor for making an approach. His best bet is still the bair, which wasn't an issue to begin with.

Bowser's fair a strange exception. It is pretty fast, decently strong, and didn't have much lag to begin with. It's not that big of an issue with him as with the others.

Poor Charizard doesn't get much out of his fair, although less lag allows him to chain a few things at low percents. That isn't saying much though, cause the others gain this ability as well. Good thing he has a great grab!

Fast characters get screwed by S-canceling!
This would be a compelling argument if there wasn't the hitstun code; however, the hitstun code balances things out a lot. Another thing that helps balance this is the auto l-cancel code, as a lot of the faster characters have moves that have less total lag than S-canceling. Heavy hitting characters aren't going to combo much. Their only reliable combos occur at low percents, because their moves are so powerful that it knocks their opponents away. Fast characters on the other hand tend to be able to string attacks together. Not only that, heavy characters are easier to combo than most characters due to their size and weight. This balances out pretty well.

Also, keep in mind, heavy hitters have a significant amount of startup lag with their powerful aerials, and fast characters can intercept their aerial attacks before their hitboxes come out and follow it up with a string of hits.



I'm going to wrap up this big post with a few facts about our heavy hitters, these are things that should be debated if you were to argue against S-canceling, so please, set your sites on these.

Offensive options heavy hitters have out of S-cancel

Jabs/tilts
The only heavy hitter that could follow up with a quick attack upon landing is Snake and Ike. Snake's aerials just aren't good for approaching. Snake would have good options with jabs and tilts, but his aerial game just doesn't allow him for great setups, so he wouldn't get to use that to his advantage much.

Ike's fair has a tendency to bat a shielded opponent away to the point that he cannot even connect with his fast jab combos. Bowser's jabs are decently fast as well, but they aren't that threatening either. Charizard I think is a tad slower than Bowser. D3, Ganon, and DK certainly don't have attacks fast enough to thwart a person planning to shield grab them.

Grabs
The only heavy hitter that can follow up their heavy attacks with consistent grabs is D3, and even that is really not overpowered because situations in the game like that already exist, such as Warios bite and Bowsers claw. If you are aware that they plan to do it you'll just have to think a bit more. Charizard could probably follow up a close fair with a grab as well, but it's not nearly as effective as D3.

Other Aerials
I'm going to point out that the moves that make for the best aerial approaches of the heavy hitters are very poor for comboing. They are predominantly swatting moves that do lots of damage and knock their opponent away, so in most cases where you will see people complaining about S-canceling, they won't allow for much of a follow up; however, all of them have some decent semi-reliable 2-3 hit strings that are effective, but they can only be done at very low percent. These typically are a lot more risky, as they involve either an uair or a dair.

That's pretty much it for now.

 

[Wind Owl]

I'm not really involved in this argument, I just wanted to clarify a point that is being made by people who are: Shield drop DOES take time, so it takes time to attack on the ground out of S-cancel, but you can buffer a spot dodge so that it begins 0F after you hit the ground, and you can jump out of shield or grab 2F after hitting the ground. To drop your shield, it takes 9F total. Oh, and if someone tries to attack you during "lag" you just automatically powershield 0F after landing. So the issue isn't so much that you can follow up immediately (which you actually can, with a grab or another aerial), it's that you can't punish it.

... Oh, and you left poor Boozer out of your Heavy Character list. Now he's sad

EDIT: Due to the nature of the code, landing lag from a jump is ignored, so those numbers are accurate. What I did not mention is that spot dodges, grabs, and rolls have startup lag (which is character dependent) and to do an aerial out of shield it requires a minumum of 2F (to put up shield) + [Character's jump frames] + [Aerial's startup lag]. I believe the fastest in the game is a Nair from Sheik, which would be (2 + 4 + 2) = 8F (this is taking into account frame-perfect timing). So it IS fast, but not broken. The real problem lies with the auto-powershield.

On the other hand, the defender has these same options while blocking the aerial. It is fairly difficult to time an aerial so that the hitbox remains as you land, so it is not unforseeable to powershield (or even just regular shield) the aerial and punish it before the character even lands.

EDIT2: Oh, one more thing I should mention is that the shield frame numbers people are throwing around are numbers I got from Ankoku's Sheik Frame Data. It is possible that shield pickup (but not auto-powershield) and shield drop are variable between characters.

EDIT3: Magus corrected me, lol. We're not entirely sure, but we think that the shield has to actually come out in order to buffer a dodge/roll. Also, the shield may have to actually be up for a frame before anything starts happening. So dodging, rolling, grabbing, and jumping all probably require 3 frames before activating.

 

[MookieRah2]

Sorry Wind Owl, I quoted the wrong thing so that first part made no sense, I fixed it though.

Oh, and if someone tries to attack you during "lag" you just automatically powershield 0F after landing. So the issue isn't so much that you can follow up immediately (which you actually can, with a grab or another aerial), it's that you can't punish it.

Well, you might not be able to punish their aerial, but if they are consistently spot dodging after their attack then you can punish their spot dodge.

... Oh, and you left poor Boozer out of your Heavy Character list. Now he's sad

PEWP! Forgot him. I fixed that though.

 

[kupo15]

Im not going to tear your post apart because of how biased it is against heavies such as combo potential.

Third, S-canceling doesn't really remove all lag. People say that all the time, but they fail to realize that in order to attack the shield has to come up and drop. That takes time.

This is true for following up with ground moves except dodges and grabs but this does not affect aerial spam. You can Jump cancel the shield the frame after you land which means you can spam aerials one after the next without lag and a Powershield frame in between

Both of these characters had an incredibly hard time with camping and projectile spam.

Get good at Powershielding and this goes away. Given how easy it is to powershield, its not that hard.

The idea that the heavy hitters become fast with S-canceling is simply not true. Their characters are based in power > speed. Their attacks tend to have long startup times, and they have very few fast moves on the ground and the air and they typically have poor land and air speed. S-canceling does not fix this.

You know, ppl usually refer to speed as l canceling and SHFFLing which refer to the end of attacks. S canceling makes the lag 0 which makes them faster than l canceling.

Heavy hitting characters aren't going to combo much. Their only reliable combos occur at low percents, because their moves are so powerful that it knocks their opponents away.

Not quite true. Ganon has his flamechoke, dtilt, dthrow and possibly nair to combo with.

Ike has nair, Uair, Dair (at times) dtilt

Snake combos like there is no tomorrow with his stuff

I think this point in your argument is null atm because I dont know what hitstun setting your referring too. Those combos you saw ganon do are possible because hit stun now is longer than when I made that video and you flat out ignored this..

Also, they are strong which means they don't need as many moves to get you off the stage like the light ones. So their low percent combos can get you off the stage as fast as the elaborate ones.

Also, keep in mind, heavy hitters have a significant amount of startup lag with their powerful aerials, and fast characters can intercept their aerial attacks before their hitboxes come out and follow it up with a string of hits.

I dont really care if their moves start up slower. The good heavy players wont use them when they feel the time isnt right. Do you really want to charge after the heavy aerials when they space themselves correctly and have no lag upon landing if you avoid them? I feel like your argument is based on underestimating the heavies and the ppl using them. DDD was top tier without lag cancel, how do you think he will be without lag?

S canceling may make the offense better, but the camping and defensive based game is still predominant and stronger actually which means you are punished for being aggressive.

EDIT:

EDIT: Due to the nature of the code, landing lag from a jump is ignored, so those numbers are accurate. What I did not mention is that spot dodges, grabs, and rolls have startup lag (which is character dependent).

Im pretty sure I saw that backwards rolls have invincibility at the beginning which means that a buffered back roll after an aerial is the safest defense after the move

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

one thing i hate about scanceling is falcos fair -> grab

 

[Wind Owl]

Im pretty sure I saw that backwards rolls have invincibility at the beginning which means that a buffered back roll after an aerial is the safest defense after the move

Nope, they have startup and cooldown lag too.

 

[kupo15]

Nope, they have startup and cooldown lag too.

Ah ok then.

 

[MookieRah2]

This is true for following up with ground moves except dodges and grabs but this does not affect aerial spam. You can Jump cancel the shield the frame after you land which means you can spam aerials one after the next without lag and a Powershield frame in between

For starters, Fox in melee is the best character in the game by frame data, but if you look at tournament rankings he doesn't appear to be. There is a distinct difference between how something looks on paper versus how things actually end up being. I'm sure some people will get really good at initiating jumps near perfectly after landing; however, you have to take the human element into account with stuff like this.

Get good at Powershielding and this goes away. Given how easy it is to powershield, its not that hard.

Power shielding doesn't give them a good approach. They still are at a ridiculous disadvantage in these situations cause they cannot properly apply pressure to their opponents. If this wasn't the case then I think we'd see more Ikes and Ganons, which we don't.

You know, ppl usually refer to speed as l canceling and SHFFLing which refer to the end of attacks. S canceling makes the lag 0 which makes them faster than l canceling.

I suppose by your definition Samus is the fastest character, since all of her aerials auto-cancel. I don't care what you are referring to speed as, there is a lot more to a characters speed then the lag on their aerials.

Not quite true. Ganon has his flamechoke, dtilt, dthrow and possibly nair to combo with.

Flame choke rarely combos into anything, as they have to be right on top of you and not too high above you to combo into it. Also, it ends the combo, cause it creates a wake up game scenario (something very different). Dtilt is a great poke move, and at low to moderate percents can lead to another aerial, but against a skilled opponent I wouldn't expect to see more than just a two hit combo. Nair doesn't combo for crap. The first hit of the nair has too much knockback to the point that the second hit is nearly useless 99 times out of 100.

Ike has nair, Uair, Dair (at times) dtilt

Ike can only string together hits at low percents. All of the moves you mentioned have too much knockback to combo at moderate percents. Dtilts and dair spikes on the ground aren't true combos either, as teching and other factors come into play (wake up game again).

Snake combos like there is no tomorrow with his stuff

His aerials combo like no tomorrow? If so, show me a video against a human opponent who understands DI. I find it hard to believe that Snake combos much with his aerials, as they are all very poor to go on the offense with. They could follow up things given specific circumstances, but they won't combo very well at high percents.

Also, they are strong which means they don't need as many moves to get you off the stage like the light ones. So their low percent combos can get you off the stage as fast as the elaborate ones.

Well if they didn't then strong characters wouldn't be worth playing. That's the point of the character; however, they have their weaknesses too. Lighter faster characters tend to combo them to hell and back, so they aren't overpowered in that sense.

I dont really care if their moves start up slower. The good heavy players wont use them when they feel the time isnt right.

A move having a long start up time is a detriment, a flaw. Your argument against this flaw is that good players won't make mistakes! That is not an argument! I could just as easily say that good players of fast characters would feel when the Ike is about to do an attack.

Do you really want to charge after the heavy aerials when they space themselves correctly and have no lag upon landing if you avoid them?

I would charge them to bait their heavy aerials. I'd get in close to where their startup time prevents them from being able to jump out of their shield and attack me again. If they get wise to that and start going for jabs then I would mix up my approach.

I feel like your argument is based on underestimating the heavies and the ppl using them.

I feel like you haven't exhausted all of your options when it comes to dealing with these strategies.

DDD was top tier without lag cancel, how do you think he will be without lag?

Well he wasn't top tier because of his aerials, except maybe for bair, which didn't have much lag to begin with. Considering that he doesn't get as much mileage out of his aerials as a lot of the other characters leads me to believe that he still won't be broken.

S canceling may make the offense better, but the camping and defensive based game is still predominant and stronger actually which means you are punished for being aggressive.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Anyways, I'm off to bed. I'll be happy to continue debating and take what you are saying to heart though. I come off cold, but I really am listening to your side. I will tell my friend that is loving Ike right now to play in a way that you are discussing and see what comes of it.

 

[kupo15]

For starters, Fox in melee is the best character in the game by frame data, but if you look at tournament rankings he doesn't appear to be. There is a distinct difference between how something looks on paper versus how things actually end up being. I'm sure some people will get really good at initiating jumps near perfectly after landing; however, you have to take the human element into account with stuff like this.

I was merely pointing out how you were somewhat wrong. You made it seem like there is nothing you can do until the shield goes away and that is not true.

Power shielding doesn't give them a good approach. They still are at a ridiculous disadvantage in these situations cause they cannot properly apply pressure to their opponents. If this wasn't the case then I think we'd see more Ikes and Ganons, which we don't.

What game are you talking about? Brawl or Brawl+? The reason you don't see many Ikes and Ganon in brawl is because of lack of hitstun and lag canceling. (Ill tack on shield stun) Powershielding shuts down the projectile game and some characters rely on this.

I suppose by your definition Samus is the fastest character, since all of her aerials auto-cancel. I don't care what you are referring to speed as, there is a lot more to a characters speed then the lag on their aerials.

In the same token, there is more to speed than just running fast...we just dont look at speed the same way here

Flame choke rarely combos into anything, as they have to be right on top of you and not too high above you to combo into it. Also, it ends the combo, cause it creates a wake up game scenario (something very different). Dtilt is a great poke move, and at low to moderate percents can lead to another aerial, but against a skilled opponent I wouldn't expect to see more than just a two hit combo. Nair doesn't combo for crap. The first hit of the nair has too much knockback to the point that the second hit is nearly useless 99 times out of 100.

Huh? Have you seen this video?
Flame choke>Jab/Dtilt is a true combo and the Dtilt sets up nicely for follow ups and he can also tech chase. You don't seem well educated in Ganons moves and what he is capable of.

Ike can only string together hits at low percents. All of the moves you mentioned have too much knockback to combo at moderate percents. Dtilts and dair spikes on the ground aren't true combos either, as teching and other factors come into play (wake up game again).

With S canceling, Ike can string together multiple Uairs. I didnt mention Dair spikes, I was referring to Dair bounces off of the ground which combos into anything. And you forget..hes Ike! He doesn't need that many well timed moves to get you off the stage. Hitstun helps greatly with his slow smashes

His aerials combo like no tomorrow? If so, show me a video against a human opponent who understands DI. I find it hard to believe that Snake combos much with his aerials, as they are all very poor to go on the offense with. They could follow up things given specific circumstances, but they won't combo very well at high percents.

Uthrow, Utilt, explosives, Dthrow, occassional Uairs at lower percents. Usmash now the mortar connects which is useful for damage. Snake is good before hacks and since he can combo more now, he can kill easier

Well if they didn't then strong characters wouldn't be worth playing. That's the point of the character; however, they have their weaknesses too. Lighter faster characters tend to combo them to hell and back, so they aren't overpowered in that sense.

The point isnt about who can combo more. You make it sound that "low combos" make them worse when a 3 hit combo that sends you off the stage is just as effective as a 6 hit combo that accomplishes the same task.

A move having a long start up time is a detriment, a flaw. Your argument against this flaw is that good players won't make mistakes! That is not an argument! I could just as easily say that good players of fast characters would feel when the Ike is about to do an attack.

So we are both assuming wrongly on each others part. I am not disregarding flaws in their move set, but I guess if both can hide their weakness well enough, this point is null.

I would charge them to bait their heavy aerials. I'd get in close to where their startup time prevents them from being able to jump out of their shield and attack me again. If they get wise to that and start going for jabs then I would mix up my approach.

Now we are dealing with semantics and the "what ifs" which isn't good for either side. So this argument is also null.

Well he wasn't top tier because of his aerials, except maybe for bair, which didn't have much lag to begin with. Considering that he doesn't get as much mileage out of his aerials as a lot of the other characters leads me to believe that he still won't be broken.

Dont use the word broken. S canceling makes characters more overpowered. I know he wasnt top tier because of his aerials which means when his aerials (other than the bair) are more usable, he will be an even better character

We'll just have to wait and see.

When you see an aerial coming, just shield grab it. Not even S canceling can stop the power of shield grabbing in this game and since the punishment for mistakes are higher, this sort of aggressive playstyle is still not as favorable. All S canceling does is replicate the same game we have now, except amp it up a few notches.

But yes...we shall see...

Anyways, I'm off to bed. I'll be happy to continue debating and take what you are saying to heart though. I come off cold, but I really am listening to your side. I will tell my friend that is loving Ike right now to play in a way that you are discussing and see what comes of it

Ok, I should get going also. Ill have to admit that I dont know Ike as well as I know Ganon. I know Ganon pretty well.

 

[Starscream]

I'll just point out that from the time that I experimented with S-canceling, characters with multihit aerials without knockback (or fastfalling the move to bypass a last hit with knockback) can pretty much just grab their opponent before they can even do anything. Like Fox dair>S-cancel>grab, Snake short hopped nair>S-cancel>grab (this racks up damage like no tomorrow), Falco nair>S-cancel>grab. Hell, when Falco still had his chaingrab I could chain dthrow>dair>S-cancel>grab multiple times from low-mid percents. These near lagless grabs after S-canceling a multihit aerial might become a bit overpowered.

 

[Yeroc]

I see no problem with that if you're landing the hits. Similar tactics were used in both of the other games. You should test to see if a sheilding opponent can do anything about it.

 

[Ryuker]

I have only briefly read the huge recent posts about s-cancelling but I just wanted to say that I'm against S-cancelling only cause it give you a shield everytime you cancell. This takes away the entire of idea of putting in L-cancelling cause that was too allow for more follow up attacks and better shield pressure and more manouvaribility.
Dropping it takes about as much time as the lag on the move would which means the only way to reasonably follow up is by jump cancelling it or roling :S.

We can debate all we want about brokenness but it's all subjective and needs time to prove it's truth. But the fact that the shield immediatly pops up is a definite and thats why If we were to vote for it I would vote against it and I have a feeling there is a large group that agrees with me.

 

[Revven]

I have matches using S-Canceling, maybe they can be used for reference? I dunno. Here Search for them, they're against TJ and ANTZ! Doubt they'll be useful, but, it shows some stuff I guess. It's A LOT of matches so, there's bound to be something there that could be used as reference (I played as mostly everybody afterall).