S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

[metaXzero]

Why is the lag cancel discussion in the hitstun thread lol?

 

[worldjem7]

S-cancelling would make me give Brawl another chance competitively.

If there's no hitstun then why should there be lag on moves?

Lag on moves + no hitstun or sheild hitstun lead to a ridiculous defensive game where the most campiest/lagless/multi-hit moves win. If you are able to remove all lag from moves then it becomes harder to punish by simply shielding because you can just keep doing it over and over again. So S-cancelling would reward approaching which would make this game a LOT better than it is now.

Also, if you have something that's way better then why would you ever want to do the inferior technique?

 

[MBlaze]

L cancel ftw

 

[Asylum]

how about both?

 

[Magus420]

how about both?

I agree.

PS-Cancel (aka M-Cancel >_>) + halved lag = :hunger:

Someone just needs to make it first though, lol. I know the powershield animation's already been pinpointed by PW, so all that'd need to be done is locate the shield health and rearrange the existing l-cancel coding.

 

[Eten]

Cause Kupo told me to shuffle over here I gotta say...

S-cancel seems ridiculous. Complete cancellation of aerial landing lag would pretty much ruin any sense of balance between different aerials. It wouldn't matter how much ending lag/landing lag an aerial had to compensate for its power, you could just spam it all day without fear of retaliation. If you think that makes the game better, well go make super characters out of the code.

As for L-cancel:
I have no problem with normal l-cancel. I think it would seem a little weird if you had half of the landing lag EVERY single time you hit the ground with an aerial, and not just the times you told the game you wanted it. All you have to do is press a button anyway.

 

[leafgreen386]

As for L-cancel:
I have no problem with normal l-cancel. I think it would seem a little weird if you had half of the landing lag EVERY single time you hit the ground with an aerial, and not just the times you told the game you wanted it. All you have to do is press a button anyway.

You mean you don't want half lag on your aerials EVERY time? That you're going to just randomly one time, decide NOT to tell the game that you want to halve your lag? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

And yes, all you need to do is press a button. That's all manual l-canceling is. A meaningless extra button press. Whether you have to press a button or not to get the l-cancel, the end result is still exactly the same. People are going to be performing aerials with half lag consistently. Making l-canceling manual just serves as a meaningless technical barrier that after people have been playing for a while will just happen, and not even be considered a "skill" anymore. You don't look at melee pros and say "LOOK AT THOSE L-CANCELS!" because surely you can l-cancel consistently, yourself. Why not just skip this step and make all aerial lag halved by default? It would take up less code, too.

 

[cultofrubik]

Eh, to be honest leaf, I disagree with you on your first sentence. There are actually some cases where I DO want the effect of not canceling. The cancel cancels the move - sometimes even parts of the move that would actually hit the opponent.

 

[leafgreen386]

What are you talking about? Landing hitboxes still come out even if you instantly s-cancel an aerial. If you're not hitting someone with a landing hitbox then you weren't close enough when you landed. But that's beside the point. We're talking about halving lag here, which will have NO effect on characters with landing hitboxes. There is literally no time when you would not want to l-cancel an aerial.

 

[cultofrubik]

Hm, well I guess that's one reason I'm no pro.

 

[M15t3R E]

I have to agree with leafgreen here. What we are looking for is for Brawl to have new and exciting combos that are not too easy to do. It's rather stupid for a lame button press to be a factor that makes certain combos a bit tougher to pull off.

 

[Eten]

All things in this game are lame button presses.

Just timed, organized, and inputted in a certain pattern.

You take out all of the lame button presses, you stop playing the game.

I had this experience playing RTS games.

So why not L-cancel? Why not feel rewarded when you L-cancel that tricky to L-cancel move when you make that 'lame' button press?

 

[Little England]

lmao What is there to discuss? Play Melee.

 

[Yeroc]

Because of the fiendish temptation to play all of Brawl's characters within that or a similar construct. :D

 

[metaXzero]

lmao What is there to discuss? Play Melee.

Kirby is balls in Melee.

Any results on M-canceling?

 

[MBlaze]

Kirby is balls in Melee.

Any results on M-canceling?

Oh God. >_> What's this?

 

[metaXzero]

Oh God. >_> What's this?

Magus' proposed cancel hack. He proposed that if possible, all normal aerial landing lag was halved and the command for L-canceling would remove all lag, but would leave you with a significantly weakened shield.

Wondering if anyone tried to make that hack work.

 

[Dan_X]

Magus' proposed cancel hack. He proposed that if possible, all normal aerial landing lag was halved and the command for L-canceling would remove all lag, but would leave you with a significantly weakened shield.

Wondering if anyone tried to make that hack work.

This does sound like a good idea to me-- also, I haven't heard much about it lately... Kupo do you have nay1 on this yet?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

L-canceling Remove all lag 0_O....
...
...
....
...
...
...

COME ON GANONDORF YOU CAN DO IT!! >.>

 

[MBlaze]

I like L much better.

 

[kupo15]

This does sound like a good idea to me-- also, I haven't heard much about it lately... Kupo do you have nay1 on this yet?

lol idk, ill try stuff. My friend suggested that we have l canceling, but if you chose to not l cancel, the hit is stronger since you put all your effort into it. But idk how this would work since the knockback is registered before the l cancel.

 

[metaXzero]

I prefer S-canceling myself. But if M-canceling is ever created....

Added depth that is unique from Melee and isn't a pointless mandatory button press (like S and L-canceling are). Hell Yeah!

 

[MuBa]

M-Canceling, no tripping, Melee Airdodge, better dash dancing, better hitstun, and faster momentum on running jumps....*drools*

 

[Magus420]

I like L much better.

Yeah, why try to turn l-canceling into something that could actually add a great deal of depth to the offensive and mixup game while also taking considerable skill to use effectively, when you could squander that opportunity by limiting it to the same recycled 1-dimensional button press that's no more than simple muscle memory?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Magus don't attack me (I doubt you would), but I don't like this M-canceling thing (if I understand it right).
From my understandment.

We get auto L-canceling (all lag is halved and this becomes the norm of Brawl+, and untop of that we get L-canceling but it removes all lag, however it weakens your shield.


Seems so....useless to me.
Unless this shield weaken was potent, you'd just L-cancel everything for a string of ungodly fast unpunishable attacks. Then when your shield gets low just don't L-cancel, it's not that it matters to much anyways as with Half lag, your window of punishment is quite small to begin with.




Also..Dam S-canceling.

 

[Magus420]

The amount the shield gets drained would be potent. While the ideal balance couldn't be found without a good amount of testing, a suggested amount was 1/3. It wouldn't be something you can just use recklessly, so you would want to use it in situations that best call for it, while also having it as an extra option at your disposal when going on the offensive.

I posted this earlier in the thread about the type of options it could open up:

This would give you some interesting mixups and shield pressure options.

Like say you land an aerial on someone's shield that is normally unsafe on block. You would have the option of being able to cancel this immediately into another attack that could punish them if they tried to retaliate. It comes at some cost to you however so it's not always going to be the best choice, and so the defending player doesn't always know what you're going to do in that situation and how to respond.

However, in the case of regular l-canceling where in 100% of all situations you would go to l-cancel and get half lag (which in this case is still unsafe), they would know they can safely punish with ____. If it were just s-canceling they would know you would always 100% of the time cancel it into no lag which they can't punish on block, and would know to try to defend by ____.



It really benefits the slower characters the most which is good. Like if Ganon for example were to come down from above and d-air someone's shield, even with the lag reduced by half he could still probably be hit with something out of shield or maybe shieldgrabbed.

At a small cost to him though, he also has the option of canceling it directly into maybe a d-tilt to hit them if they try to punish it and perhaps follow it up or at least put them into a disadvantaged position. He could also cancel into an Up-B which is a grab (or regular grab if it didn't push them too far) and would get them if they instead continued to block expecting a canceled attack or waiting to see if he didn't cancel the d-air to possibly punish it more safely.

He could also choose not to cancel it so that by the time the defender, who respected his option of canceling into another attack that would have hit them first, waits to see if he didn't cancel it the Ganon player may be able to avoid punishment entirely or at least to a lesser degree.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

.....What about Yoshi though...Dudes Shield is so >.> uncool..... Everyone else can atleast do this Twice or so, then if they get attacked, Do something out of Shield.

>.>

T_T.

Why make Yoshi's Shield even harder to use T_T.....god dammit.
I still think if we can apply Super Armor to a general thing we should try too...

Like maybe thats the L-canceling thing....or or.... Airdodging is just SA!

 

[kangaroo]

Any type of cancel with a shield would hurt yoshi.

 

[Magus420]

What about Yoshi exactly? Can you not attack out of his powershield animation? He could in Melee.

 

[metaXzero]

I thought Yoshi's shield only prevented him from jumping out of it...

 

[leafgreen386]

I think that if m-canceling were implemented, that the amount that should be drained from your shield is what the attack would've done to it if it had hit your own shield.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshi really can't do anything out of Shield, Currently he cannot Cancel his shield at all, he can Shield grab, but his standing grab is slow so... >.>

Jigglypuff also has a crap position in that well....she can barely risk this thing because if she screws up SHE INSTANTLY Dies...while oithers may just get punished with a charged F-smash/Usmash which may not kill them.


With "M-canceling", Yoshi has it worse, because while he cannot be shield poked, if he has to go into his shield, it's a bad position for him to be in. The fact that someone is going to want to M-cancel can't exactly be denied either, as for Yoshi, if momentum ever changes after the M-cancel, his shield is significantly weakened. While Most Yoshi's try not to shield, sometimes well....that thing has to come up, and if it has to come up weak....fun.

As Yoshi I just might not M-cancel period, as the lag on most of his aerials isn't bad and N-air, B-air and F-air are quite lagless, with D-air being the only real instigator... but a Lagless D-air sounds quite ....fun.


With Jiggles, Does she Risk this thing? Because if she say M-cancels twice since it takes 1/3 of your shield per use. She has 1/3 of her shield left.


At that point what does she do, if she gets pressured while the shield is weak?
Just willingly take it all because she can't afford to actually lose the shield.


Im just saying, it seems JIggles and Yoshi would benefitless.

 

[Yeroc]

It took me a while to find it, but find it I did. You say that L-canceling is bad design because it's got no drawbacks. What about Guilty Gear XX's False Roman Cancels? They're the exact same premise. For those of you who don't know GGXX mechanics, there's a technique called the Roman Cancel that allows you to end an attack animation on hit (so no projectile moves) and costs 50% tension. But some moves have a specific (very small) window where if you do the cancel, it ends the move regardless of if it hits, costs only 25% tension, and can even be performed on some projectile moves. Compared to regular RC's, there's no downside to FRC'ing in GGXX. At all. And it's also a completely arbitrary frame window and linear game dimension, just like L-canceling. And it's wildly successful as a mechanic because it adds depth, not subtracts it.

The main thing I have against your proposal as it stands now Magus is it's too detrimental IMO. Aerials are used for a lot more than just approaches, yet you'd punish people for using them during a combo. And your amount of drawback is WAY too much for the typical number of approaches in this game. With GGXX, you can only run out of tension, which means no more specials or RCs. It doesn't impair your regular ability to fight and defend. But with your idea, somebody could drain their sheild looking for an opportunity and then end up not only able to follow up because they can't keep up the combo but they could end up with a broken sheild and the opponent basically would get a free smash as a result of falling into a combo. What is that garbage? And with Brawl's shield stun like it is, you really don't have the option anyway. If you approach with an air, you cancel or get grabbed. Simple as that. So there's not a choice, and you're bringing on an arbitrary impairment to the heavier characters that would have to cancel if they wanted to avoid being punished for their approach, but they'd end up being punished anyway. It'd make some characters more unusable than they already are.

The idea I just had is a very FRCesque idea that is basically the same thing as M-canceling but without this silly drawback. We make a wide window for regular L-canceling, and somewhere inside, or perhaps right before you hit the ground, make a frame or 2 for Z-canceling perhaps right as you land or something. It's much harder to do, and there's substantial benefit for finding it. What do you guys think?

 

[Magus420]

I'm still not really seeing the point you're trying to make about Yoshi. Yes, his shield sucks and he can't do much of anything out of it, but how does that relate to this really? Are you saying he needs to have his shield at 100% strength at all times because in the event he does need to shield it gets broken otherwise? That's the only possible reason I can see that would leave him benefitless from it.

Using it 2-3 times within a very short period of time would be risky for any character. Even if Jiggs' shield break worked like everyone elses, she's so incredibly light she would get KOd at most percents regardless. Beyond that point it's not much different than any other character risking possible shieldbreak by using it multiple times back to back. If Jiggs is at low percent just don't use it repeatedly without waiting a bit to let the shield recharge inbetween if you feel the risk of possibly needing to shield a powerful hit immediately afterwards outweighs the potential benefit you'd get from it.


EDIT:

It took me a while to find it, but find it I did. You say that L-canceling is bad design because it's got no drawbacks. What about Guilty Gear XX's False Roman Cancels?

What about them?

They're the exact same premise.

No. They are not.

For those of you who don't know GGXX mechanics, there's a technique called the Roman Cancel that allows you to end an attack animation on hit (so no projectile moves) and costs 50% tension. But some moves have a specific (very small) window where if you do the cancel, it ends the move regardless of if it hits, costs only 25% tension, and can even be performed on some projectile moves.

This falls under my 1st and 3rd points:

How many good fighting games are there that contain intentional game mechanics/advanced techniques that:

1) Offer great reward for its success in execution at ZERO risk/cost to the player.
2) Failure in its execution always results in the exact same risk/cost/punishment as NOT attempting to perform it.
3) Attempting it in 100% of all cases is absolutely 100% of the time the superior "option" to not attempting it, even if it were to FAIL each and every single time as failure will always result in the exact same outcome as not trying to perform it.

Compared to regular RC's, there's no downside to FRC'ing in GGXX. At all.

Yes, compared to regular RCs there isn't. However, there is RCing, FRCing, and not RC/FRCing. Doing either costs tension. Using it at times when it is unnecessary means you may not be able to at times it could be better used. This is not the same thing as l-canceling. FRCing is not always 100% of the time the best thing to do in 100% of all situations. L-canceling is.

The main thing I have against your proposal as it stands now Magus is it's too detrimental IMO. Aerials are used for a lot more than just approaches, yet you'd punish people for using them during a combo.

By using the word 'punish', I'm guessing you are in favor of and looking from the view of s-canceling right?

And your amount of drawback is WAY too much for the typical number of approaches in this game. With GGXX, you can only run out of tension, which means no more specials or RCs. It doesn't impair your regular ability to fight and defend. But with your idea, somebody could drain their sheild looking for an opportunity and then end up not only able to follow up because they can't keep up the combo but they could end up with a broken sheild and the opponent basically would get a free smash as a result of falling into a combo. What is that garbage?

You make it sound as if using the cancel would be mandatory for any type of approach or any part of a combo. The default lag would already be reduced by half or to whatever is deemed necessary in conjunction with any shield stun changes that might be made to allow some solid offensive gameplay in its own right, and the cancel would be a supplementary option to build off that for certain setups/combos/shield pressuring/whatever.

Like I mentioned in the example with Ganon's d-air; even though it's still quite laggy with half lag, he has the option on block to cancel and hit them before they can retaliate, which makes the defender unsure of how to respond appropriately, and if they choose to respect that option rather than risk being hit he will most likely suffer much less if any punishment anyway by the time they can react to not canceling.

And with Brawl's shield stun like it is, you really don't have the option anyway. If you approach with an air, you cancel or get grabbed. Simple as that. So there's not a choice, and you're bringing on an arbitrary impairment to the heavier characters that would have to cancel if they wanted to avoid being punished for their approach, but they'd end up being punished anyway. It'd make some characters more unusable than they already are.

As mentioned above, such clear cut end results of cancel or no cancel would only really apply to most moves if they know exactly what you're going to do ahead of time. They do not however.

In the case of the slowest of moves that they'd actually be able to have sufficient time to react to it not being canceled, they also generally have a good deal of shield pushback, so with any attempt at spacing it will put them out of most shield grab ranges. For the most part they would only be able to attempt punishment by dropping/jumping out of the shield into something which would generally be too slow after confirming they didn't cancel. Could they hit them if they just guess right and try to punish immediately? Sure, but they risk getting hit themselves in the event they do cancel it.

The idea I just had is a very FRCesque idea that is basically the same thing as M-canceling but without this silly drawback. We make a wide window for regular L-canceling, and somewhere inside, or perhaps right before you hit the ground, make a frame or 2 for Z-canceling perhaps right as you land or something. It's much harder to do, and there's substantial benefit for finding it. What do you guys think?

I think there'd never be any reason at all not to use it, and it just boils down to another muscle memory 'technique' that doesn't add much of any real depth to the game beyond what might come from the reduction in lag itself. When I played GG briefly I specifically practiced and got good at timing FRCs for my character because I like trying to do difficult technical stuff like that...

However, I realized when I'd play matches I'd often do it at times it was totally unnecessary and would waste tension in the process, because it had become part of muscle memory from practicing it so much. Part of the skill in using it is knowing when/how it's best used. This is what sets it apart from the lol-less-lag-for-free-all-dai l-cancel type mechanic that offers no depth to gameplay and is no more than muscle memory.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

If someone manages to make a code for m-cancel,
I would definitely like to try it out.

 

[metaXzero]

Magus wins again I see.

Wish Phantom Wings still desired a challenge :/

 

[Dan_X]

bump! I re-wrote the entire OP...

 

[storm92]

I do agree that m-canceling would add some depth and require more skill and thinking in this game, and Brawl is desperately needing technical requirements.
1/3 of the shield sounds like a lot, but based off of the choices on whether you should Z-cancel it or leave it to auto-L sounds good to me.

 

[metaXzero]

Their are 2 lag canceling vs. threads now...

EDIT: S-canceling doesn't buff heavies to much. Look at Smash 64. Z-canceling also had no lag, but DK wasn't close to Top tier.

 

[Dan_X]

Their are 2 lag canceling vs. threads now...

EDIT: S-canceling doesn't buff heavies to much. Look at Smash 64. Z-canceling also had no lag, but DK wasn't close to Top tier.

Though S canceling is similar to that of Z-canceling, it's far from the same. It adds an undeniable unprecedented level of spammyness to the game. It just doesn't make sense, choosing S cancel over auto L cancel.

I play 64 all the time, as I have it on my Wii in wad form... and as such playing Brawl and 64 back to back is so very different even if you have S-cancel on.