S-Cancel vs L-Cancel vs Auto L-cancel! Discuss!

[kupo15]

No, a missed guard impact means your opponent can still combo you. A missed l cancel means you lose your combo and are open to attack. They both do basically the same thing except one is a defense move and one is an offensive move. Someone is being left open and someone's combos is ending in both games

 

[zxeon]

No. Not kind of like impacts. Powershielding is kind of like impacts. There is a difference.

In that one is a defensive technique and the other is an offensive technique, but at their core they are the same: a technique based around timing that if you have a good chance of executing correctly there is no reason to forgo attempting it. It also can be argued that L- cancelling is both an offensive technique and a defensive technique, it kinda works in both.

 

[Magus420]

Yes, guard for the GC is just B. Guard impact is left/right+B at the moment of impact.

If you time the guard impact late you get hit correct? Are you saying if you just block normally without attempting it you still get hit anyway just the same? Because that would be the only way it's the same concept as L-canceling.

If you guys still somehow don't see the difference I think I'm done here.

 

[zxeon]

If you time the guard impact late you get hit correct? Are you saying if you just block normally without attempting it you still get hit anyway just the same? Because that would be the only way it's the same concept as L-canceling.

If you guys still somehow don't see the difference I think I'm done here.

If you don't impact you can still get grabbed so, yes, and I mean at their very core not that they are similar in every way.

 

[Magus420]

At the very core, not attempting it and just blocking the attack normally is still better than unsuccessfully impacting and getting hit by the attack, correct?

 

[kupo15]

No, if you time it late then you will receive the full impact of the next hit. If you just block, then you can get grabbed or small damage will be chipped away. But like I said before, its the same concept in both games, one is an offensive tech and one is a defensive tech. In both games, the combo ends for one person and an opening is created for punishment. Its the same for smash. A missed l cancel in smash means you cant continue your combo and especially in this game with laggy aerials, you are open for punishment.

If you still dont know about SC, then can you please argue my points in post 188? I have been waiting for someone to do so.

 

[zxeon]

At the very core, not attempting it and just blocking the attack normally is still better than unsuccessfully impacting and getting hit by the attack, correct?

Yes, but not in all cases. You still take shave damage and you can be grabbed out of your guard. They are both a matter of timing. This is where the similarities end.

 

[Magus420]

No, if you time it late then you will receive the full impact of the next hit

If you just block, then you can get grabbed or small damage will be chipped away.

But like I said before, its the same concept in both games

Unsuccessfully l-canceling and not attempting the l-cancel result in the same exact thing...

How is that at ALL the same concept???

Wow.

EDIT:

If you guys still somehow don't see the difference I think I'm done here.

^^ this

 

[kupo15]

Why did you quote several things in my post that were not connected? The first two quotes were to answer your question. Maybe I should have made a new paragraph to make that clear. Why did you not include the rest of the 3rd quote either? Are you fishing for something by trying to prove how quoting sentences that are not connected make no sense? This is what you should have quoted

But like I said before, its the same concept in both games, one is an offensive tech and one is a defensive tech. In both games, the combo ends for one person and an opening is created for punishment. Its the same for smash. A missed l cancel in smash means you cant continue your combo and especially in this game with laggy aerials, you are open for punishment.

How does this not make sense or show how they are not similar?

 

[Someone7]

Is anyone still seriously arguing for S-canceling?

 

[kupo15]

I dont think so. I think ppl are still arguing whether or not "mindless" button pressing is needed to l cancel. I think it does and my post 188 explains why.....yet no one on the other end cares to address it...

 

[Someone7]

Mindless button pressing? What the hell do they think a video game is?

And why are we discussing a non-existent alternative to either L-canceling or S-canceling?

 

[kupo15]

Mindless button pressing? What the hell do they think a video game is?

And why are we discussing a non-existent alternative to either L-canceling or S-canceling?

You sir, win the thread

 

[Wind Owl]

No, he doesn't. He's just being cynical like he always is; he's not contributing anything to the thread at all.

 

[err]

right i think the point of the thread was "lets decide" (which was resolved rather swiftly, after ppl discover to just tap Z on landing w/ S-canceling and get a free grab)

and then it kinda turned into a think-tank,
and then ppl came back and started saying "don't make l-canceling happen automatically, it should be left in there to separate the men from the boys"

(which, really, if you're going to hack your Wii to put l-canceling in the game, aren't you already separating yourself from the 'boys'? need you bother to hit a button every time just because it's the right decision? why not make it happen automatically to increase the speed of the game for free?

adding a full cancel (with a penalty cost) is just enriching the game design ... how can people not be all for this? need we compromise to have manual l-canceling and ps-canceling for a short while? (this of course depends on the skill-set of our hacker, should we find one willing to do this and stick around to tweak it to our liking..)

block on landing to half-lag (no penalty)
block + (jump/special/normal attack/grab) to do a full cancel (some penalty incurred.. seriously i think the damage doesn't weigh heavily enough on someone's decision to do the move.. well actually maybe in a game where people live to such high percentages, it would speed things up.. but metaknight players would never have to do it, so they'd just reap the rewards of higher damaged opponents. On the other hand.. their tornado would just **** the weakened shields if we went with a shield reduction. Guess this really isn't about MK anyway. This is about the nearly-playable characters (dorf, bowser, falcon, , ness, et. al))



[edit 3] oh and we need to get a **** coder. and then reduce the knockback on falcon's sideB by about 60 percent.

 

[kupo15]

Read my post 188 for reason why l canceling should be manual

 

[err]

allow me to contradict myself and state that in many ways i'd be fine with a manual l-cancel. it's just another thing to do, and i'm fine with that. for GC users, its a pain in the ***, and i'll probably remove the springs from my controller so i don't instinctively soft-shield to l-cancel (melee's a great game)

the only thing i really want to see is a ps-cancel implementation. talk about f.uckin meta

so many tactics could evolve from that.

edit{
in regards to #188.. you made good points. i do believe in the necessary punishment for player error. it's the (less significant) reason that s-canceling is too good. you don't have to try to hit it, you just _DO_ hit it.

and removing the manual-l-cancel is just making the game move faster sans effort. i guess it lets ****ty players get better faster, but wtf anyone who has played melee for any significant length of time knows brawl is slower than gillian&randy makin love. we're beasts in brawl-land. we don't need the auto-l-canceling. but hey it might not be too bad to screw around with it. i guess MK's could just chose not to do it if they felt so compelled... and they'd probably still turn out alright,, but once again we aren't really doing this to cater to that ****in prick
}

oh and put in the melee airdodge, kupo.

spamming airdodge < dogs hit

 

[kupo15]

Thank you for responding to my post 188. About the WD, its not something that should be discussed here. I gave my reasons and I said the deciding factor and the conclusion of this argument will be when the hitstun code is out. Till then, I am not jumping on the banwagon. Sorry, im not stubborn, just unconvinced.

Why are people so attached to their unnecessary button press? @_@

I think your going about this the wrong way. The question should be, "why did the creator make landing lag in the first place? We wouldnt need to l cancel if the lag was never there"

I also think your thinking about this from the psychologist's mind too much.

Let me make an example and pleae dont tear it apart by saying things like, "that element doesnt match l canceling" or whatever. Please bare with me:

Lets take the game off golf for example. You are learning golf and you are learning how to make a nice swing. It took some time but you can consistently hit the ball well. Then you ask yourself, "why do I have to do this everytime? Didnt i prove that I can do this"

If that doesnt work for you try this, you could also ask yourself, "why do I have to select from all of these clubs? Why Cant there be a one club for every shot?"

The thing is, that is the game, That is what makes the game and that is how you play the game. Just because you can hit the ball well doesnt mean you dont have a chance to mess up. Just becaus you can chose the right club a lot doesnt mean you wont accidentally use the wrong club.

Every sport has this and in anything you do at the high level, there is going to be tedious things that you have to do over and over no matter how little they seem. Thats what makes someone good.

What l canceling seems to be the checks and balances of this game. It takes time to learn but just because you got, doesnt mean you should be exempt from having to do it. You also shouldnt be able to take a long break, and come back to where you started. You will be rusty and this is the checks and balances of this game and we must learn to accept it.

Would melee be as great as it was if the developers decided to make all aerials auto canceld?


EDIT: To add to my point, why do you lose the point in Table tennis is you put your non paddle hand on the table? Idk, its just a rule that you have to accept.

 

[err]

Would melee be as great as it was if the developers decided to make all aerials auto canceld?

definitely not.

You [. . . ] shouldnt be able to take a long break, and come back to where you started. You will be rusty and this is the checks and balances of this game and we must learn to accept it.

i'm torn on this one. because it's logically sound, but .. i'm 22 years old. With any luck, i'll get registered in the last 3 courses I require to graduate with a bachelor's in Computer Science next semseter. At some point soon (as in last spring), i need to start considering.. ya know.. what i actually want to do with my life. Where i'm gonna live, what i'm going to accomplish, start a family, et. al.

so, selfishly, i wouldn't mind if the game didn't require that necessity when i come back to it. although,, i guess realistically if i do 'quit' smashing, then i could just load up an auto L cancel code (should one exist) whenever i feel like smashing again, and be somewhat closer to where i was when i left off.


then again, i like the twitch

 

[Yeroc]

Speaking as someone who's "quit" melee like 6 times over the course of the game's life, trust me: it all comes back pretty quickly.

At this stage I'm definitely in favor of S-canceling though, or at least modifying the L-canceling window. I didn't like how high you had to be to actually get the L-cancel to work. I mean some things you almost may as well have been trying to autocancel them. I've been messing around with this stuff primarily with ZSS so let's look at that horrendous d-air. With S-canceling, it's actually viable, and potentially pretty good (I've not had opportunity to actually play somebody in Brawl+ yet) because you can do really low altitude attacks with it. With this L-cancelling code, you have to telegraph the hell out of the move by jumping to about head height, and then you still get punished for it because not only did they see it coming but you're still stuck in landing for like 20 frames. It's moves like these that L-canceling is supposed to improve and make viable, yet it fails horribly in this instance.

 

[Magus420]

Just because it's how l-canceling worked in the previous smash games and is just what you may be used to (believe me, I am quite accustomed to it as well), doesn't mean that it isn't bad game design.

Seriously. How many good fighting games are there that contain intentional game mechanics/advanced techniques that:

1) Offer great reward for its success in execution at ZERO risk/cost to the player.
2) Failure in its execution always results in the exact same risk/cost/punishment as NOT attempting to perform it.
3) Attempting it in 100% of all cases is absolutely 100% of the time the superior "option" to not attempting it, even if it were to FAIL each and every single time as failure will always result in the exact same outcome as not trying to perform it.


I have nothing at all against tech skill being needed in the game (and if you happen to know me as a Melee player it's actually a strong point of mine). I would also have no problem if the proposed powershield-cancel code were to be created and designed so that it were much more difficult to perform than l-canceling, as that technique's existence would actually add something meaningful to the game. (PS-Cancel = half lag by default, and the cancel removes ALL lag into a PS animation giving the attacker the mixup of instead gaining frame advantage on block when performed and allowing instant A/B attack follow ups, but at the cost of weakening their shield)

I do, however, have a problem with tech skill being implemented in the form of a recycled game mechanic that at its core is straight up flawed game design (though it's a respectable attempt at depth considering it's Sakurai). It's about 1% depth and 99% just an excuse to tack on a rather minor tech skill requirement to a technique that in the end contributes next to nothing to the game beyond the reduction in lag itself. Any minute amount of depth it may actually offer for the rare event someone happens to mess it up, even after the new timing fully becomes muscle memory and is in a slower paced game, is easily trumped by the nuisance it now becomes in this case thanks to the game's gimped L/R buttons.

Spoiler

...and no, nobody cares that you use the nunchuck and wouldn't have that problem, kupo15, so don't bother mentioning it as if it somehow makes it less of an issue.

 

[leafgreen386]

I really like magus's idea, although I have grown attached to s-canceling after playing with it for a short while.

I actually like the instant grab it offers, and I think it adds to the game. Granted, certain characters with chain throws have a much easier time pulling them off now, due to the ease of getting a grab, but it does make shielding far less powerful. It makes it so you have to actually evade an aerial in order to have the upperhand in the situation. The game is no longer "shield that aerial and then retaliate with something," but becomes "evade that aerial or you're going to take some damage, period."

I've been playing with both ganon and ike with the melee air dodge and s-cancel codes on (and of course no tripping). Ganon is definitely made usable, but not broken. Ike is also made significantly better, but even still... you can't just wildly fling fairs around. It has startup, and a foe can get inside of you in that time if you're not smart with it. I think the melee air dodge has given ike much more of a boost than the s-cancel code has, actually. As for snake, I still need to play more matches with him before I'll be able to say if he's broken or not.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing an auto l-cancel (half lag) with the ability to grab out of your landing lag, which would solve the problem of someone just instantly rolling away after an attack, making it so it's still possible to punish a poorly spaced aerial, and retaining aerial -> grab.

 

[Team Giza]

Magus is speaking a lot of sense here. Personally I have always saw L-canceling in melee stupid. Now we have a chance to actually strategically work it into the game and some of you are gonna pass that up just to make it more like melee?

Personally I agree with Magus that the half lag should be default with no button press. L-canceling only widened the gap between experienced and newer players but did not add anything to matches between 2 experienced players. Making it automatic will make Brawl+ become more popular among players who are able to use these codes than if it was a button press. It makes it easier jump into a balance and strategic game without having to overcome technical barriers just for these basics.

Now, we should apply something like full lag canceling with the timing that is currently being used with l-canceling. Except make it have some cost. Hopefully we would be able to make it cuts down the user's shield so it cannot be spammed and it would make more interesting matches. This would add much more strategy to the game and would actually create more character and match up diversity thus making the game funner for a longer amount of time while also making match up understanding even more competitive.

Frankly I am a little appalled at some of the things I have been reading in the brawl+ topics. People seem to be trying to hard to make it like melee when we have the options available to make it a better, more fair, more strategic and more competitive game than melee ever was. We really should consider what Magus is requesting because it could evolve the game into something much better than we have had thus far.

 

[MuBa]

I would love to fill in on Magus's request but currently we don't have any hacker who cares enough for this project =/

So far I've only touched on the hexadecimal, binaries, and decimal conversions (Which aren't hard to do at all) but for me to fully grasp hacking Brawl (which all we have to do is find the code for the specific action, then manipulate the variable from decimal to hexadecimal), I need a USB Gecko...and that stuff is expensive. $50 is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

you guys really need to find a coder before your dreams get too far ahead of yourselves or people are just going to be upset.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

i'm in favor of l-cancelling

 

[Burnt_Thimble]

I'm in favor of L-canceling because it makes all the characters in the same proportional lag as regular Brawl. For example in regular brawl if character X has 8 frames of landing while character Y has 4 frames then character Y is twice as fast as character X. If you take the same situation and add L-canceling then character X has 4 frames, and character Y has 2 frames. still character Y is twice as fast. However when applied to S-Canceling characters X and Y are the same speed. This means that when S-canceling is applied slow characters have no gap between fast characters. Thus forth I view S-canceling more as a character buff code while I view L-canceling as a code to reduce aerial lag.

However as far as the input window is concerned I am against it.

For the most part I summarized the argument for it as it puts in a level of tech skill that separates the good players from the bad. This is completely true, you can take a group of average smash players and implement a input window and it will separate the good from the bad. But eventually this will become second nature and people will hit them at least 90% of the time. But then using the same logic for the exact same reason should you then reduce the input window by lets say half to separate the good players from the bad. Then eventually that input window would become second nature.....(i think you can see where I'm going with this).

^^ by the way I would like to note how a few people (if not more) liked the idea that the input window on the current L-cancel code is harder than melee and therefore better.

Another aspect that hasn't been brought up is attracting more people to brawl+, if you take L-canceling from the perspective of someone who isn't a smash enthusiast a strict input window on hitting L is completely unsupported by regular brawl and a hindering aspect for trying to get more people to play.

With all this said I suggest a fair compromise being L-Canceling with the input window that is required for S-Canceling.

M-canceling has just way too much of a bizarre feeling to me. In theory it seems perfect an actual check and balance put into brawl. However I believe that if you subject all the characters into this "endeavor" the results of such might be very much different the regular Smash (Brawl Melee, and 64). Although I think such a thing would trigger something much bigger than Brawl+, and I don't think everybody would jump on the bandwagon or completely on the bandwagon (like people have already suggested different percentages for shield depletetion or if shield depletetion should even be the drawback)

 

[Eddie G]

Honestly, both seem appealing to me, as they both add some new flavor to bland 'ol Brawl. However, myself being more of an enthusiast for skill requirement, my vote goes to good old l-canceling.

 

[Dan_X]

I'm in favor of L-canceling because it makes all the characters in the same proportional lag as regular Brawl. For example in regular brawl if character X has 8 frames of landing while character Y has 4 frames then character Y is twice as fast as character X. If you take the same situation and add L-canceling then character X has 4 frames, and character Y has 2 frames. still character Y is twice as fast. However when applied to S-Canceling characters X and Y are the same speed. This means that when S-canceling is applied slow characters have no gap between fast characters. Thus forth I view S-canceling more as a character buff code while I view L-canceling as a code to reduce aerial lag.

However as far as the input window is concerned I am against it.

For the most part I summarized the argument for it as it puts in a level of tech skill that separates the good players from the bad. This is completely true, you can take a group of average smash players and implement a input window and it will separate the good from the bad. But eventually this will become second nature and people will hit them at least 90% of the time. But then using the same logic for the exact same reason should you then reduce the input window by lets say half to separate the good players from the bad. Then eventually that input window would become second nature.....(i think you can see where I'm going with this).

^^ by the way I would like to note how a few people (if not more) liked the idea that the input window on the current L-cancel code is harder than melee and therefore better.

Another aspect that hasn't been brought up is attracting more people to brawl+, if you take L-canceling from the perspective of someone who isn't a smash enthusiast a strict input window on hitting L is completely unsupported by regular brawl and a hindering aspect for trying to get more people to play.

With all this said I suggest a fair compromise being L-Canceling with the input window that is required for S-Canceling.

M-canceling has just way too much of a bizarre feeling to me. In theory it seems perfect an actual check and balance put into brawl. However I believe that if you subject all the characters into this "endeavor" the results of such might be very much different the regular Smash (Brawl Melee, and 64). Although I think such a thing would trigger something much bigger than Brawl+, and I don't think everybody would jump on the bandwagon or completely on the bandwagon (like people have already suggested different percentages for shield depletetion or if shield depletetion should even be the drawback)

You made some good points. What you've stated also lends to the idea that L-canceling is still fair from character to character. As you said, it cuts the lag frames in half so both fast and slow characters will have their lag reduced proportionately. S-canceling can very well be considered a character buff, more specifically, a major buff for Heavy characters. It's such a buff in fact hat it can be near broken (or rather, it is broken). There is no reason that a Ganondorf should be able to spam the same devastating aerial over and over and not be punishable at all. It's just stupid, and lacks entirely in skill.

The new L-canceling really isn't that "awkward" it's quite reliable once you understand the button input. Like anything, it requires practice. Once practiced, it's so rewarding, and it should be. The benefits can be reaped by both fast and slow characters alike, proportionately and skillfully.

If a coder can find a way to implement the ideas stated in this thread, that is, adding another button input window for instant canceling , thus resulting in some depletion of shielding, by all means do it. I wouldn't mind testing it.

 

[kupo15]

I agree. I still like l canceling, however, Im starting to swing over to the other side where it all should be auto l canceled even though I like pressing that button too much!!!

 

[Makkun]

I agree. I still like l canceling, however, Im starting to swing over to the other side where it all should be auto l canceled even though I like pressing that button too much!!!

Same here. I'm sure auto l-canceling everything would be a much shorter code than button-pressing, anyway.

 

[Discolicious]

S-canceling is really fun but auto l-cancel should even up in the long run because it's proportional

 

[zxeon]

Just because it's how l-canceling worked in the previous smash games and is just what you may be used to (believe me, I am quite accustomed to it as well), doesn't mean that it isn't bad game design.

Seriously. How many good fighting games are there that contain intentional game mechanics/advanced techniques that:

1) Offer great reward for its success in execution at ZERO risk/cost to the player.
2) Failure in its execution always results in the exact same risk/cost/punishment as NOT attempting to perform it.
3) Attempting it in 100% of all cases is absolutely 100% of the time the superior "option" to not attempting it, even if it were to FAIL each and every single time as failure will always result in the exact same outcome as not trying to perform it.


I have nothing at all against tech skill being needed in the game (and if you happen to know me as a Melee player it's actually a strong point of mine). I would also have no problem if the proposed powershield-cancel code were to be created and designed so that it were much more difficult to perform than l-canceling, as that technique's existence would actually add something meaningful to the game. (PS-Cancel = half lag by default, and the cancel removes ALL lag into a PS animation giving the attacker the mixup of instead gaining frame advantage on block when performed and allowing instant A/B attack follow ups, but at the cost of weakening their shield)

I do, however, have a problem with tech skill being implemented in the form of a recycled game mechanic that at its core is straight up flawed game design (though it's a respectable attempt at depth considering it's Sakurai). It's about 1% depth and 99% just an excuse to tack on a rather minor tech skill requirement to a technique that in the end contributes next to nothing to the game beyond the reduction in lag itself. Any minute amount of depth it may actually offer for the rare event someone happens to mess it up, even after the new timing fully becomes muscle memory and is in a slower paced game, is easily trumped by the nuisance it now becomes in this case thanks to the game's gimped L/R buttons.

...and no, nobody cares that you use the nunchuck and wouldn't have that problem, kupo15, so don't bother mentioning it as if it somehow makes it less of an issue.

Think of the L-Cancel like it's a special move in a fighting game. It is better 100% of the time to attempt to add a special move to the end of your combo because you know it will raise your damage output and if you mess up oh well your opponent falls to the ground as if you had never attempted it.

 

[Doc_Holiday]

How do I get to be able to lay with L-Canceling and S-canceling?

 

[Makkun]

How do I get to be able to lay with L-Canceling and S-canceling?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199810

 

[cultofrubik]

Hmm. We could just cut all aerial lag in half and move on. To be specific, I just do not like the idea of having to use L and R in Brawl. As Magus put it, they're gimped.

It's as if your trying to recover as Fox on Yoshi's story against a d-tilting Marth. Sure you can keep doing it, but it's highly unlikely you're going to get a perfect recovery too often.

 

[metaXzero]

I love L-canceling, but my vote is for an auto-L-cancel. As Magus said, tech skill in the form of a mandatory button press isn't really good design.

 

[kupo15]

i vote for auto l canceling for the fact of implementing balanced mechanics. Having a manual l cancel gives certain characters more of an advantage by not giving them a chance of messing up because some or all of their moves l cancel automatically. So some chars still have a slight adv for having l canceled moves even with the current l cancel as opposed to auto cancel which gives everyone auto canceled moves. If we are going to add a universal mechanic, it should help everyone in every way and not be selective.

If no one had auto l canceling to begin with, i would still be on the fence.

 

[metaXzero]

Question: How hard would it be to make M-canceling (Magus' idea)?

 

[streetracr77]

I don't like s-canceling because everyone can do it with no practice at all, and it makes slow characters spammy. L-canceling should be used over S-canceling.