Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[BluePikmin11]

And what makes you think we'll get two "classic" characters with neither serving the G&W/ROB role anyway? Let alone two "classic" characters who had the majority of their impact in Japan only, Sable pretty much having all his impact in Japan only? (keeping in mind Sakurai prefers to minimize the amount of characters like this on the roster).



Dear gawd what have you done with the punctuation?

Sable is not the WTF kind though.
Sable has been sorta referenced in Links Awakening and Wario Land 4. Just like Takamaru being referenced in Samurai Warriors 3 and Nintendoland.

 

[Hotfeet444]

This here is exactly why I hate the "Ridley would be OP" argument.

You could destroy Ridley with anyone in Brawl as well.

Besides, everyone knows Speed Boost Blaziken would curb stomp either of them.

Puh-lease, we all know Mega-Mewtwo X is the most OP Fighting Type.

Speaking of which...does anyone realize how scary a Mega Chandelure would be? Chandelure already has the highest non-legendary Special Attack Stat of 145, if that thing got a speed boost...God help us all.

 

[Chandeelure]

This here is exactly why I hate the "Ridley would be OP" argument.

Yeah,that argument is so stupid,but sorry I'm not one of that persons that support Ridley.

 

[?????????????]

Yeah,that argument is so stupid,but sorry I'm not one of that persons that support Ridley.

That's fine. Everyone has their own opinions on what characters should be in and why. I just don't like dumb excuses as to why a character would be "impossible."

 

[Gune]

Speaking of which...does anyone realize how scary a Mega Chandelure would be? Chandelure already has the highest non-legendary Special Attack Stat of 145, if that thing got a speed boost...God help us all.

 

[?????????????]

Speaking of which...does anyone realize how scary a Mega Chandelure would be? Chandelure already has the highest non-legendary Special Attack Stat of 145, if that thing got a speed boost...God help us all.

How big do you think they would go? Surely...not Mega Arceus? MEGA GOD!!!!

How about Mega Blissey? It has a special ability that allows itself to heal every turn, which stacks with the effects of Leftovers it it's holding them. It also becomes a Normal/Ghost type, making it really difficult to damage.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Puh-lease, we all know Mega-Mewtwo X is the most OP Fighting Type.

Turn 1: Blaziken transforms into Mega Blaziken and uses Protect. Mewtwo has no moves that boost its speed. Blaziken will now outspeed Mewtwo regardless.
Turn 2: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo takes Super Effective damage taking out at least half its health. Mewtwo uses Psystrike. Blaziken holds on with Focus Sash. Mewtwo has no priority moves.
Turn 3: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo fainted.

gg blaziken op

 

[Chandeelure]

I'm so powerful...lol

 

[Hotfeet444]

Turn 1: Blaziken transforms into Mega Blaziken and uses Protect. Mewtwo has no moves that boost its speed. Blaziken will now outspeed Mewtwo regardless.
Turn 2: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo takes Super Effective damage taking out at least half its health. Mewtwo uses Psystrike. Blaziken holds on with Focus Sash. Mewtwo has no priority moves.
Turn 3: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo fainted.

gg blaziken op

That already doesn't make sense due to it's most likely that you won't be able to transform and attack in the same turn. Mewtwo would crush that thing the second it tries to transform.

How big do you think they would go? Surely...not Mega Arceus? MEGA GOD!!!!

How about Mega Blissey? It has a special ability that allows itself to heal every turn, which stacks with the effects of Leftovers it it's holding them. It also becomes a Normal/Ghost type, making it really difficult to damage.

It depends if Blissey gets a normal defense boost, for while it could absorb all the special attacks, it could barely take a physical hit.

 

[Arcanir]

That already doesn't make sense due to it's most likely that you won't be able to transform and attack in the same turn. Mewtwo would crush that thing the second it tries to transform.

I think you can IIRC, at least from the battles in the demo I remember Mewtwo transforming and then using a attack instantly.

Either way, there's a mistake in that scenario as MegaBlaziken can't have another item other then the Mega Stone.

 

[?????????????]

It depends if Blissey gets a normal defense boost, for while it could absorb all the special attacks, it could barely take a physical hit.

It becomes Normal/Ghost type

 

[BluePikmin11]

Mega-Blissey with so much health.
That would be tons of amazing, I would add her to my team.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

That already doesn't make sense due to it's most likely that you won't be able to transform and attack in the same turn. Mewtwo would crush that thing the second it tries to transform.

You are able to transform and attack the same turn. Even if you couldn't, it's still competitively shown that a fully attack-invested Blaziken can still 2HKO a Mewtwo with an unboosted Shadow Claw.

Literally, the only possible ways Mewtwo would win in that 1v1 set up is if Mewtwo uses either Trick Room, Thunder Wave, or Substitute, none of which are ever used on most Mewtwo sets.

I think you can IIRC, at least from the battles in the demo I remember Mewtwo transforming and then using a attack instantly.

Either way, there's a mistake in that scenario as MegaBlaziken can't have another item other then the Mega Stone.

The point still stands that a non-MegaBlaziken can beat out a non-MegaMewtwo and possibly even MegaMewtwoX under most conditions.

 

[N3ON]

Sable is not the WTF kind though.

Exactly, you have two characters fitting the same role. That's not going to happen, especially with Sakurai warning us not to expect an abundance of newcomers.

 

[AEMehr]

Either way, there's a mistake in that scenario as MegaBlaziken can't have another item other then the Mega Stone.

Endure.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Maybe I missed the point of the hypothetical Lucario Vs. Zoroark fight but since when did Pokemon get picked by who would win in a Pokemon battle? If that was the case who the hell was Pichu's opponent? Sunkern?

Flamethrower on Zoroark? If a dark Pokemon gets in Smash, they better be using dark moves. Charizard should have the flamethrower base covered.

Also, I am aware it's personal opinion, but pretty much all the Pokemon newcomer suggestions are screaming flavour of the month to me thus far. If Zoroark stands the test of time, then good for her. Currently I'm not convinced she won't fade into obscurity with the other 600+ Pokemon the moment Gen 6 comes out.








Unless she gets a mega form of course.

 

[Arcanir]

Endure.

The scenario has MegaBlaziken attack that turn he's hit, so Endure is not used. Even if it did use it, Blaziken then can't attack and is an easy target for Mewtwo.

 

[AEMehr]

Maybe I missed the point of the hypothetical Lucario Vs. Zoroark fight but since when did Pokemon get picked by who would win in a Pokemon battle? If that was the case who the hell was Pichu's opponent? Sunkern?

It was just an off topic discussion, not really related to Smash at all.

The scenario has MegaBlaziken attack that turn he's hit, so Endure is not used. Even if it did use it, Blaziken then can't attack and is an easy target for Mewtwo.

robert you got some 'splaining to do

 

[BluePikmin11]

Exactly, you have two characters fitting the same role. That's not going to happen, especially with Sakurai warning us not to expect an abundance of newcomers.

It's not impossible though to have both?
I think Sable is a really unique character, being able to transform to a snake or frog for attacks. Sakurai is looking for those kinds of characters, right?

 

[Hotfeet444]

You are able to transform and attack the same turn. Even if you couldn't, it's still competitively shown that a fully attack-invested Blaziken can still 2HKO a Mewtwo with an unboosted Shadow Claw.

Literally, the only possible ways Mewtwo would win in that 1v1 set up is if Mewtwo uses either Trick Room, Thunder Wave, or Substitute, none of which are ever used on most Mewtwo sets.

Considering how overused Mega Blaziken is going to be, I can already guarantee that people are already setting up Trick Room and Substitute teams to counter said speed boost. After a few months, nobody will want to use it.

As for the 2HKO Mewtwo...that doesn't make sense. Sure, it would survive one Psychic thanks to a Focus Sash, none if it doesn't hold it, but even then, it has no chance of outspeeding it on the second turn as a Normal Blaziken as Blaziken's base speed stat is 80 and Mewtwo's is 130.

Also, how is Mega Blaziken going to hold a Focus Sash when it has to hold the Blazikenite to transform? One more thing, the thought of outspeeding Mewtwo on the first turn wouldn't work because if Mewtwo became Mega Mewtwo Y and got a speed boost on its already 130 base stat, there's no way Mega Blaziken would be able to outspeed Mega Mewtwo Y from one single speed boost.

 

[N3ON]

It's not impossible though to have both.
I only have 16 newcomers, less newcomers than Brawl. (18)

Not only does it go against precedent though, it goes against Sakurai's own feelings about exclusive characters. Yes, at this point Takamaru's Japan-only status is debatable, even though his series has never been outside, but regardless of cameos or references, Sable's hasn't. Mixed with the fact that he's not a popular request, the fact that Sakurai has never included GB characters in the first place when referencing "classic characters" (thus his definition of them might be different than what we assume it to be), it being "not impossible" is hardly grounds for it to logically stand upon. It's simply not going to happen, it goes against Sakurai's own mentality in more than one way in regards to how he makes his rosters.

And 16 newcomers is still pretty high, all things considered.

 

[Gune]

Should we just break out our DS's and battle each other right now? Because it seems like that's where this is heading...

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

The scenario has MegaBlaziken attack that turn he's hit, so Endure is not used. Even if it did use it, Blaziken then can't attack and is an easy target for Mewtwo.

Let me start this scenario over.
Turn 1: Blaziken uses Protect. Mewtwo has no moves that boost its speed. Blaziken will now outspeed Mewtwo regardless.
Turn 2: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo takes Super Effective damage taking out at least half its health. Mewtwo uses Psystrike. Blaziken holds on with Focus Sash. Mewtwo has no priority moves.
Turn 3: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo fainted.

Here's another scenario where both have Substitute.
Turn 1: Mewtwo transforms into MegaMewtwoX and uses Substitute. Blaziken uses Substitute. Both are at 75% health. Blaziken recovers with Leftovers to 87.5% and gets a boost in Speed. Blaziken will outspeed Mewtwo.
Turn 2: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo's substitute vanished. Mewtwo used Psycho Cut. Blaziken's substitute vanished. Blaziken recovers with Leftovers to 100% and gets a boost in Speed.

So here we are at turn 2, where Mewtwo has 75% health while Mewtwo has 100% health and +2 to his speed. If Blaziken uses Shadow Claw, that will be enough to either outright kill Mewtwo if the RNG favors the attack or if the high critical-hit rate comes into play. Based on who has better prediction and luck, the two are evenly matched, but Blaziken very much has the chance to win.

So yes, a regular Blaziken going toe-to-toe with the Mega forme of Mewtwo and outright winning against a regular forme. OP.

Considering how overused Mega Blaziken is going to be, I can already guarantee that people are already setting up Trick Room and Substitute teams to counter said speed boost. After a few months, nobody will want to use it.

As for the 2HKO Mewtwo...that doesn't make sense. Sure, it would survive one Psychic thanks to a Focus Sash, none if it doesn't hold it, but even then, it has no chance of outspeeding it on the second turn as a Normal Blaziken as Blaziken's base speed stat is 80 and Mewtwo's is 130.

Also, how is Mega Blaziken going to hold a Focus Sash when it has to hold the Blazikenite to transform? One more thing, the thought of outspeeding Mewtwo on the first turn wouldn't work because if Mewtwo became Mega Mewtwo Y and got a speed boost on its already 130 base stat, there's no way Mega Blaziken would be able to outspeed Mega Mewtwo Y from one single speed boost.

Blaziken will be Uber again, meaning illegal to use in regular battles outside of legendaries like Mewtwo or Kyogre. Even if it is within the regular OU play, people will not pick up on Trick Room and Substitute simply to counter one Pokemon. The metagame doesn't work like that. Unless Trick Room teams themselves become more viable, they will not be more used, otherwise the one guy not using Trick Room or Blaziken is suddenly winning against all the Trick Room teams, which is completely counter-intuitive to using a set team like that in the first place. Scizor is the most used Pokemon in the metagame, yet people don't make sun-teams exclusively to counter it. That will get them curbstomped by any other weather team, or worse yet, by the opponent switching Pokemon.

And regular Blaziken gets Speed Boost in the Dream World. Did you not know that? Hence, Mega Blaziken is not even necessary and at times may even seem inferior to regular Dream World Blaziken, which will be accessible in X&Y due to how Pokemon Bank will work.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I do hope for more newcomers though.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Let me start this scenario over.
Turn 1: Blaziken uses Protect. Mewtwo has no moves that boost its speed. Blaziken will now outspeed Mewtwo regardless.
Turn 2: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo takes Super Effective damage taking out at least half its health. Mewtwo uses Psystrike. Blaziken holds on with Focus Sash. Mewtwo has no priority moves.
Turn 3: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo fainted.

Here's another scenario where both have Substitute.
Turn 1: Mewtwo transforms into MegaMewtwoX and uses Substitute. Blaziken uses Substitute. Both are at 75% health. Blaziken recovers with Leftovers to 87.5% and gets a boost in Speed. Blaziken will outspeed Mewtwo.
Turn 2: Blaziken uses Shadow Claw. Mewtwo's substitute vanished. Mewtwo used Psycho Cut. Blaziken's substitute vanished. Blaziken recovers with Leftovers to 100% and gets a boost in Speed.

So here we are at turn 2, where Mewtwo has 75% health while Mewtwo has 100% health and +2 to his speed. If Blaziken uses Shadow Claw, that will be enough to either outright kill Mewtwo if the RNG favors the attack or if the high critical-hit rate comes into play. Based on who has better prediction and luck, the two are evenly matched, but Blaziken very much has the chance to win.

So yes, a regular Blaziken going toe-to-toe with the Mega forme of Mewtwo and outright winning against a regular forme. OP.

The first doesn't work if Mewtwo transform into Mega Mewtwo Y, Blaziken cannot outspeed Mewtwo without its mega form, and with a mega form, it can't hold a focus sash, meaning it couldn't take more than one hit and couldn't outspeed Mega Mewtwo Y regardless, even with a single turn speed boost.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

The first doesn't work if Mewtwo transform into Mega Mewtwo Y, Blaziken cannot outspeed Mewtwo without its mega form, and with a mega form, it can't hold a focus sash, meaning it couldn't take more than one hit and couldn't outspeed Mega Mewtwo Y regardless, even with a single turn speed boost.

Speed Boost.

 

[Chandeelure]

Bomberman and Bandana Waddle Dee ,all the newcomers that I need.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Speed Boost.

A base stat of 80 is not high enough to outspeed a base stat of 130 by the use of one speed boost. As someone who deals with Blaziken with a Crobat in online play, it doesn't work in their favor. Super Fang + Brave Bird does wonders.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

A base stat of 80 is not high enough to outspeed a base stat of 130 by the use of one speed boost. As someone who deals with Blaziken with a Crobat in online play, it doesn't work in their favor.

Max Speed EVs and IVs and beneficial nature on Blaziken: 284 speed stat
+1 Speed Boost: x1.5 Speed
284 * 1.5 = 426
Max Speed EVs and IVs and beneficial nature on Crobat: 394
426 > 394
Blaziken outspeeds Crobat. Your experience doesn't apply as fact.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Max Speed EVs and IVs and beneficial nature on Blaziken: 284 speed stat
+1 Speed Boost: x1.5 Speed
284 * 1.5 = 426
Max Speed EVs and IVs and beneficial nature on Crobat: 394
426 > 394
Blaziken outspeeds Crobat. Your experience doesn't apply as fact.

Now hang on a second, now we're talking about a Max SPEED IV? What happened to this Max Attack IV? A Max Attack IV Blaziken will not have 426 EVs and IVs in Speed, not to mention people build their Blazikens on power, not speed considering stalling with Protect will give them an edge over a majority of pokemon. And a Max Speed IV is not excelling in power output like the Attack IV trained Blaziken. You're basically talking about two different trained Blazikens for two different situations, one that nobody really uses.

 

[FlareHabanero]

*cough*

 

[BluePikmin11]

Yeah were really getting off topic.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Now hang on a second, now we're talking about a Max SPEED IV? What happened to this Max Attack IV? A Max Attack IV Blaziken will not have 426 EVs and IVs in Speed, not to mention people build their Blazikens on power, not speed considering stalling with Protect will give them an edge over a majority of pokemon. And a Max Speed IV is not excelling in power output like the Attack IV trained Blaziken. You're basically talking about two different trained Blazikens for two different situations, one that nobody really uses.

Do you not know a single thing about competitive Pokemon or something? You can have 31 IVs in every stat, being max IVs. 510 EVs can go into one Pokemon, capping at 255 in each stat. 255 Attack / 252 Speed becomes maximum EVs for Blaziken. The Blaziken I'm talking about is one Pokemon.

Between all this and not knowing that Speed Boost is Blaziken's Dream World ability, what else do you need to know about?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Yeah were really getting off topic.

Yeah we should get back to talking about Fire Emblem.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Yeah we should get back to talking about Fire Emblem.

Anna over Chrom! Anna over Chrom! Anna over Chrom! Anna over Chrom!

 

[Chandeelure]

Do you not know a single thing about competitive Pokemon or something? You can have 31 IVs in every stat, being max IVs. 510 EVs can go into one Pokemon, capping at 255 in each stat. 255 Attack / 252 Speed becomes maximum EVs for Blaziken. The Blaziken I'm talking about is one Pokemon.

Between all this and not knowing that Speed Boost is Blaziken's Dream World ability, what else do you need to know about?

Blaziken is uber,end of the discussion,this is about smash brothers not competitive pokemon battles.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Yeah we should get back to talking about Fire Emblem.

Runan for Smash.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Runan for Smash.

**** that b****. Holmes all the way

Spoiler

 

[Hotfeet444]

Do you not know a single thing about competitive Pokemon or something? You can have 31 IVs in every stat, being max IVs. 510 EVs can go into one Pokemon, capping at 255 in each stat. 255 Attack / 252 Speed becomes maximum EVs for Blaziken. The Blaziken I'm talking about is one Pokemon.

Between all this and not knowing that Speed Boost is Blaziken's Dream World ability, what else do you need to know about?

Why you're such a smart@$$ is a good one in my books.

No, but seriously, you're still leaving Mega Mewtwo Y out of your equation, which STILL blows your theory out the window. Sure it could have an edge over normal Mewtwo, or maybe even Mega Mewtwo X, which is more defensive and phyiscally offensive, but you've yet to explain how a normal Blaziken can out-do a Mega Mewtwo Y.

PS: I do know Blaziken's dream world ability is speed boost, but you'll have to forgive me for not knowing everything about said one pokemon as it's my least favorite of the three Hoenn starters.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Blaziken is uber,end of the discussion,this is about smash brothers not competitive pokemon battles.

The thread, yeah. What Hotfeet and I were talking about was competitive Pokemon, though. Frankly, the change in subject was refreshing. I'd rather talk objectively rather than subjectively, and Pokemon/Fire Emblem is sheer subjectivity all around.

Why you're such a smart@$$ is a good one in my books.

No, but seriously, you're still leaving Mega Mewtwo Y out of your equation, which STILL blows your theory out the window. Sure it could have an edge over normal Mewtwo, or maybe even Mega Mewtwo X, which is more defensive and phyiscally offensive, but you've yet to explain how a normal Blaziken can out-do a Mega Mewtwo Y.

PS: I do know Blaziken's dream world ability is speed boost, but you'll have to forgive me for not knowing everything about said one pokemon as it's my least favorite of the three Hoenn starters.

Your own ignorance in the subject we're talking about is just as good of one in mine.

Until we know what its Speed stat is, I can't tell you for sure, but the same principle applies in that Blaziken can accumulate speed and proceed to sweep it. I can copy-paste the same battle scenario as above and just replace MegaMewtwoX with MegaMewtwoY. Will that make you feel better?

And I don't have to forgive you for arguing with me about a subject you didn't come fully equipped to argue about. Even if you didn't know, you still had the freedom to check Bulbapedia and Smogon for the accuracy of what you're saying. That's what I did. Reasoning competitive Pokemon isn't like reasoning a roster, my friend. It's a lot more factual and full of numbers. If you're not prepared to make use of that, don't argue with me in the first place.