Admiral!
Smash Apprentice
I don't particularly care about the stagelist since this is a local and I wasn't even planning on attending, but why do you have stuff like Pokefloats legal but not Rainbow Cruise?
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[Road to LTC]Play a Real Game- Project M and Melee - October 26th, 2013 - Irving, TX
- Thread starter Oracle
- Start date
Oracle
Smash Master
actually i thought i had rainbow cruise on there lol. let me fix that
Penguin_ftw
Smash Apprentice
Rob why are you being so obtuse, do you really need a ****ing essay on how ******** Pokefloats is?
The other jank stages are whatever, you wanna host a tourney with some silliness that's fine. Brinstar/Mute City/Cruise all have some issues but they're playable stages. Pokefloats though? Pokefloats isn't even a stage, it's a 3 minute loop of utter nonsense that encourages people to run away. The fact that Pokefloats isn't random doesn't make it any better.
Oracle
Smash Master
The only part of your post that isnt trite whining is that the stage "encourages running away", to which I would argue that all high level melee encourages running away. Thats just what happens when dashdancing is so good and spacies have lasers. Dding and patiently baiting out an attack is going to be better than running in and attacking 99% of the time, regardless of the stage. If you have a problem with that then you probably picked the wrong game to play competitively.
Im surprised you didnt bring up the video where fox runs away from peach for 8 minutes to win. In that scenario its either the fault of the peach player for not banning the stage, or the fault of the ruleset for not allowing enough bans. Peach is useless on that stage because of how slowly she moves around, so it should have been an obvious ban by the peach. Furthermore, with 2 bans and the ability to switch character, that should never be a problem with my ruleset. If you ban floats and cruise as peach, then fox has to take you to a starter, none of which are that bad for peach, or mute city/kj/brinstar, which obviously isnt happening.
Floats rewards players for creative movement and stage knowledge. If you dont want to go there, ban it
Im surprised you didnt bring up the video where fox runs away from peach for 8 minutes to win. In that scenario its either the fault of the peach player for not banning the stage, or the fault of the ruleset for not allowing enough bans. Peach is useless on that stage because of how slowly she moves around, so it should have been an obvious ban by the peach. Furthermore, with 2 bans and the ability to switch character, that should never be a problem with my ruleset. If you ban floats and cruise as peach, then fox has to take you to a starter, none of which are that bad for peach, or mute city/kj/brinstar, which obviously isnt happening.
Floats rewards players for creative movement and stage knowledge. If you dont want to go there, ban it
Penguin_ftw
Smash Apprentice
So its fine to have ****ty, unbalanced stages because we get multiple bans? Why isn't Hyrule Temple legal?
And the difference between running away on Pokefloats vs. any other stage is that other stages end, Pokefloats keeps bringing in new environment to run away to indefinitely.
And the difference between running away on Pokefloats vs. any other stage is that other stages end, Pokefloats keeps bringing in new environment to run away to indefinitely.
Penguin_ftw
Smash Apprentice
I just don't understand why you want Pokefloats to be a stage, the community gave up on that idea several years ago for good reasons.
I think what he's (not so) indirectly going for is "my house my rules". Which is fine and all. You are entitled to do whatever you want at the tournament that you're putting all the work into running. But when you make rules or a stagelist with some of your stages listed, deviating from a long established norm, you gotta expect some kind of questioning. Personally, I'd respect the choice more if you just came out and said "I think its fun and could lead to really wacky matches". There's no real reason to attack the ones wanting to understand your reasoning and call them babies or call their concerns trite whining.
Oracle
Smash Master
what Im "going for" is that without a good enough reason to ban something, then it should be legal. floats was banned by the community because most people who play smash just want to do space animal dittos on flat stages with predictable platforms because you don't have to change what you're doing when you have a stagelist that basically has 3 stages on it. Its not because i think it would be fun, its because it shouldn't have been banned in the first place.
Will, when you respond to my points with things like calling the stage "****ty" or "unbalanced", it shows exactly how little credence your argument has. You're trying to limit aspects of the game to shape it into your own personal preference of what melee 'should' be like. This is exactly why I don't like the modern melee community: way too close minded. People complain about hbox's puff or m2k's shiek when they 'runs away' or just 'camps' or 'plays gay'. Thats a part of the ****ing game, learn to deal with it or stay free. Don't change the rules just because you don't like or can't deal with something in the game; thats a garbage mentality. /rant
to the argument: what matchups are going to go to time on that stage? out of the viable characters, i could see a space animal camping out maybe icies, peach, ganon. obviously those matchups are never going to happen because those characters will ban the stage. nobody gets such a huge reward on that stage for being a certain character, the matches will still go to the better player. it might be beneficial to sometimes wait out a certain transformation to get a more beneficial position, but thats never going to be more than like 10 seconds. if two campy players meet, then the game might go to time. sorry if you don't have the patience for something like that, but that is not even close to a real reason to ban that stage (and honestly both players have to be really campy for something like that to happen. if you don't want the game to go to time, then don't camp.) It really feels like you're saying that the optimal strategy on that stage will always be to try and camp out your opponent, but thats obviously not true.
everything you have posted has been opinion. Its fine that you think the stage is dumb or campy or whatever, but don't tell me how to run a tournament just because you dislike a stage.
Will, when you respond to my points with things like calling the stage "****ty" or "unbalanced", it shows exactly how little credence your argument has. You're trying to limit aspects of the game to shape it into your own personal preference of what melee 'should' be like. This is exactly why I don't like the modern melee community: way too close minded. People complain about hbox's puff or m2k's shiek when they 'runs away' or just 'camps' or 'plays gay'. Thats a part of the ****ing game, learn to deal with it or stay free. Don't change the rules just because you don't like or can't deal with something in the game; thats a garbage mentality. /rant
to the argument: what matchups are going to go to time on that stage? out of the viable characters, i could see a space animal camping out maybe icies, peach, ganon. obviously those matchups are never going to happen because those characters will ban the stage. nobody gets such a huge reward on that stage for being a certain character, the matches will still go to the better player. it might be beneficial to sometimes wait out a certain transformation to get a more beneficial position, but thats never going to be more than like 10 seconds. if two campy players meet, then the game might go to time. sorry if you don't have the patience for something like that, but that is not even close to a real reason to ban that stage (and honestly both players have to be really campy for something like that to happen. if you don't want the game to go to time, then don't camp.) It really feels like you're saying that the optimal strategy on that stage will always be to try and camp out your opponent, but thats obviously not true.
everything you have posted has been opinion. Its fine that you think the stage is dumb or campy or whatever, but don't tell me how to run a tournament just because you dislike a stage.
Penguin_ftw
Smash Apprentice
That second paragraph could be about items for all that it matters.
But whatever, I'm not gonna argue with you Rob. Obv you can do whatever you want, I just don't know why you think its a good enough idea to warrant going back on what the community as a whole has decided against. And I do feel like this game has reached a point where you should be justifying your choice of such irregular stages rather than having others try and give you reasons of why its a bad idea and shooting it down with "thats just an opinion" as if anything you have said or any given rule in a smash rule-set is based on hard facts or something.
But whatever, I'm not gonna argue with you Rob. Obv you can do whatever you want, I just don't know why you think its a good enough idea to warrant going back on what the community as a whole has decided against. And I do feel like this game has reached a point where you should be justifying your choice of such irregular stages rather than having others try and give you reasons of why its a bad idea and shooting it down with "thats just an opinion" as if anything you have said or any given rule in a smash rule-set is based on hard facts or something.
Oracle
Smash Master
lmao wat? are you even reading my posts? items are RANDOM and the players have literally no control over when/where/how often they spawn. this gives worse players a huge reward for basically no reason and thats not even close to comparable to pokefloats. obviously when we have an easy way to turn the game from something random and uncompetitive to something predictable and competitive, then we should take the latter path.
you STILL haven't responded with an actual reason why I should ban the stage, which is laughable because thats I'll ive asked for. if you want an intelligent discussion then you have to provide evidence and support for your points lol.
The stage is legal not just because there is no good reason to ban it, but also because having such a different stage adds another layer of depth and skill to the counterpicking process. Pokefloats tests a much more diverse skillset than most of the other stages by forcing you to know a huge number of stage layouts, when/where you should be on which part of the pokemon, where its safe to go based on when the next pokemon will appear, etc. Its not the 'runaway for a free win' that you've suggested; it actually takes a good deal of stage knowledge to use the stage to the fullest. its more complicated than 'stay in the center of the stage' here; stage control is based on a ton of factors and the ideal positioning changes constantly based on what pokemon are out and how long they have been out. You can force your opponent into traps by pressuring them into a part of the stage thats about to go away, or get to a position that might not be favorable at the moment, but will become favorable in 4 seconds to get an edge over your opponent. those are just 2 examples of a ton of great ways to use the stage to your advantage, which makes the game MORE skillful because of how deep that aspect of the stage is.
but hey, want to still be close minded? still think everything more complex than 3 platforms is 'jank'? then thats perfectly ok! thats why you have two whole bans! if you don't want to go to pokefloats, then you don't have to! you can put yourself in a position where this argument is completely irrelevant to you and still have a whole other ban to use!
you STILL haven't responded with an actual reason why I should ban the stage, which is laughable because thats I'll ive asked for. if you want an intelligent discussion then you have to provide evidence and support for your points lol.
The stage is legal not just because there is no good reason to ban it, but also because having such a different stage adds another layer of depth and skill to the counterpicking process. Pokefloats tests a much more diverse skillset than most of the other stages by forcing you to know a huge number of stage layouts, when/where you should be on which part of the pokemon, where its safe to go based on when the next pokemon will appear, etc. Its not the 'runaway for a free win' that you've suggested; it actually takes a good deal of stage knowledge to use the stage to the fullest. its more complicated than 'stay in the center of the stage' here; stage control is based on a ton of factors and the ideal positioning changes constantly based on what pokemon are out and how long they have been out. You can force your opponent into traps by pressuring them into a part of the stage thats about to go away, or get to a position that might not be favorable at the moment, but will become favorable in 4 seconds to get an edge over your opponent. those are just 2 examples of a ton of great ways to use the stage to your advantage, which makes the game MORE skillful because of how deep that aspect of the stage is.
but hey, want to still be close minded? still think everything more complex than 3 platforms is 'jank'? then thats perfectly ok! thats why you have two whole bans! if you don't want to go to pokefloats, then you don't have to! you can put yourself in a position where this argument is completely irrelevant to you and still have a whole other ban to use!
D
Deleted member
Guest
Guys, it's called 'LOW TIER City' for a reason.
I like what Oracle is doing to be honest. He's bringing back stages from back in the day to simulate a time where we didn't know all the inner-workings of the game. Remember Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Japes? I'm pretty sure those where legal way-back-when. That said, I support Oracle in whatever he wants to do; It's his tournament. If you don't like the ruleset, you don't have to come.
P.S. - Can we legalize Kongo Jungle (Melee)?
Me and Denthorn played a match on it in DIME 1 in the Low Tier Bracket and it was quite fun. (We both agreed to it.)
Kongo Jungle is usually banned in tournaments, primarily because the rock at the right and the Klap Trap that is a dangerous stage hazard.
In P:M we do have maps like Warioware that resemble it's design and we already have other stages in both games that have hazards similar to this stage. It could be a cool addition, but it's your call.
I like what Oracle is doing to be honest. He's bringing back stages from back in the day to simulate a time where we didn't know all the inner-workings of the game. Remember Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Japes? I'm pretty sure those where legal way-back-when. That said, I support Oracle in whatever he wants to do; It's his tournament. If you don't like the ruleset, you don't have to come.
P.S. - Can we legalize Kongo Jungle (Melee)?
Me and Denthorn played a match on it in DIME 1 in the Low Tier Bracket and it was quite fun. (We both agreed to it.)
Kongo Jungle is usually banned in tournaments, primarily because the rock at the right and the Klap Trap that is a dangerous stage hazard.
In P:M we do have maps like Warioware that resemble it's design and we already have other stages in both games that have hazards similar to this stage. It could be a cool addition, but it's your call.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Just because you have a nostalgia boner ali doesn't mean the stage is for tournament play. Stages should generally consist of a hazard-less and constant setting.
I get that its oracles ruleset but it still doesn't mean I can't point out that its ridiculous.
I get that its oracles ruleset but it still doesn't mean I can't point out that its ridiculous.
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oracle when aliami is agreeing with you you know you've made a mistake
Oracle
Smash Master
why? Who decided that was the best? That statement is 100% arbitrary; neither of those are qualities that determine whether or not a stage is competitive. Ive provided plenty of reasoning about the good aspects of having that stage on the list and have yet to get a real argument for why I shouldnt.
Aliami im not doing it for nostalgia; im putting it on to add some diversity to the stage list. The nostalgia factor is certainly a benefit, but its not the main reason for putting these stages on
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oracle if you're going to use the fact that statements are arbitrary as a legitimate argumentative point then people can never discuss stages ever. your stagelist is just as arbitrary as the MBR stage list. your stage list does not come from some higher intellectual level where your banning criteria is more fair than others. whatever criteria you're using to ban YS64 is just as arbitrary as the criteria used to ban pokefloats and brinstar by everyone else.
if you want to just go "yeah well i think my stage list is better so tough ****, put up or shut up" then go ahead, that's more than enough reasoning for your stagelist to be used at your tournament, but don't try to spout intellectual bull**** that doesn't actually talk about anything, it will just frustrate your potential tournament goers (read: venue-fees)
if you want to just go "yeah well i think my stage list is better so tough ****, put up or shut up" then go ahead, that's more than enough reasoning for your stagelist to be used at your tournament, but don't try to spout intellectual bull**** that doesn't actually talk about anything, it will just frustrate your potential tournament goers (read: venue-fees)
D
Deleted member
Guest
So lets throw aside the factor of how "viable" a stage is. Obviously opinions are opinions and no one can change how somebody looks at something but a TO should generally meet the demands of what the community feels is correct.
Who here besides Oracle and Aliami (Nerd Boner/Rager) actually would like to have Pokefloats, Mute City, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, and Jungle Japes (Doubles only) as counterpicks?
Who here besides Oracle and Aliami (Nerd Boner/Rager) actually would like to have Pokefloats, Mute City, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, and Jungle Japes (Doubles only) as counterpicks?
D
Deleted member
Guest
My opinions of Oracles decisions doesn't change anything. Oracle can do what he wants to do.
Diversity is a wonderful thing, thanks for clearing up your reasons.
All in all, I just want to go to a tournament that yields fun experiences. If that includes trying something new, I'm all for it.
One more thing I want to say: For Who's Tyler 6, icecream let all the P:M guys play on whatever stages they could agree upon. We had tons of fun on stages like Norfair and even Japes in doubles and singles matches. People, if you don't want to go to a certain stage, either ban it (that's why Oracle gave you extra bans) or just simply agree on a different one.
OAM
Smash Journeyman
I don't mind giving new stages a shot, that I do not mind at all. That is all part of the growth process for me, but the only way I'll probably play the disputed stages (outside of the stages not being banned outright) is if it's agreed upon by myself and my opponent in singles.
Oracle
Smash Master
everybody has misinterpreted why I put floats on the stagelist. When I look into making a ruleset, my goal is to create the most skillful, competitive environment possible. When that's the end result, more stages being added typically facilitates that goal. All other reasons you would put stages on a stagelist, like tradition, or 'jank', or whatever other qualities that don't deal with competition you might want to choose, take a backseat to my goal because thats the only factor that I believe to matter. SB, when I refer to zachattack's points as being arbitrary, its because he just picked 2 random aspects of stages and said "yeah, this is the way it should be", when I thought it was clear that I'm only interested in reasons that the stage is uncompetitive or takes skill away. I apologize if that wasn't clear earlier.
Yes, my goal of maximum competitive value is arbitrary. If you think that a stagelist should cater to some other opinion, then you can host your own tournament. If you want to argue about pokefloats being degenerate, uncompetitive, or taking some aspect of skill away from the game, then i'm all ears. otherwise, its just going to be yall complaining and me getting frustrated
Yes, my goal of maximum competitive value is arbitrary. If you think that a stagelist should cater to some other opinion, then you can host your own tournament. If you want to argue about pokefloats being degenerate, uncompetitive, or taking some aspect of skill away from the game, then i'm all ears. otherwise, its just going to be yall complaining and me getting frustrated
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OAM
Smash Journeyman
I had my processor go out in my desktop on top of my high-end video card (and that's a $150 fix at the bare minimum), so it doesn't look like Tyler's gonna make the trip unless by some miracle I get the money from my SO for gas and to enter P:M (and perhaps I'll give Melee a shot).
D
Deleted member
Guest
Okay so disregard the silly stages, how are you planning on running 4 events inbetween our 2-9 hours? If this event has a decent amount of people are you going to go ham on the bracket?
Oracle
Smash Master
LIKE A BOSS
swiss is pretty quick if we're only cutting to top 8 or top 6 or something. everyone needs to bring seetups so this can run smoothly! let me know if you're bringing a melee/pm setup
swiss is pretty quick if we're only cutting to top 8 or top 6 or something. everyone needs to bring seetups so this can run smoothly! let me know if you're bringing a melee/pm setup
D
Deleted member
Guest
I can make it to top 8... I got this.
Bringing a setup for whichever game needs it more. Do you want a common5 like I made for bh3 for this or could you not give a ****?
Hamyojo is probably going, I'm not volunteering him as bringing a set up but its likely.
Bringing a setup for whichever game needs it more. Do you want a common5 like I made for bh3 for this or could you not give a ****?
Hamyojo is probably going, I'm not volunteering him as bringing a set up but its likely.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I can get another logo for the background, if you would like to spice it up.
I need to get those ugly gray bars off my other 2.6b css around where the names where. Zach if you know how I'd really love some help with it.
Also, I look forward to playing Ham in P:M again and you in Melee.
Damn dude, that sucks. If you manage to come down here and bring your computer along, let me take a look at it; I have an idea of what might have happened.
Right now I'll confirm I'm bringing either a P:M or Melee setup. Hopefully if things go well in the following days I'll get my hands on another CRT or two so I can bring two setups and use one for P:M and the other one for Melee.
If both games go on at the same time, we shouldn't have a problem. Brawl and P:M at WT6 ran fast together with 30 or so people there.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
This stage list is on some oldschool Midwest jank **** lol.
Blondie.
Smash Journeyman
K, it's clear you didn't care about the smashboards or facebook poll, but what is the reasoning behind legalizing Port Town and Brinstar?? And banning Skyworld?
I dislike Castle Siege (for no particular reason, just don't like the layout) and believe Norfair is imbalanced and can promote circle camping, but Port Town has practically unavoidable hazards with laughable transitions, and Brinstar just generally promotes campiness. If you want to legalize more stages, why not Frigate? Frigate is a great stage, that for some strange reason the Melee players always overlook. And what is the problem with Skyworld? That's a pretty fair stage imo, but people always tend to ban it. I'd much rather play on Hyrule Castle, or Pictochat or Kongo Jungle or even Pirate Ship than Port Town. Brinstar is alright, but I don't see why anyone would actually want to play there when there are soooo many better stages.
I dislike Castle Siege (for no particular reason, just don't like the layout) and believe Norfair is imbalanced and can promote circle camping, but Port Town has practically unavoidable hazards with laughable transitions, and Brinstar just generally promotes campiness. If you want to legalize more stages, why not Frigate? Frigate is a great stage, that for some strange reason the Melee players always overlook. And what is the problem with Skyworld? That's a pretty fair stage imo, but people always tend to ban it. I'd much rather play on Hyrule Castle, or Pictochat or Kongo Jungle or even Pirate Ship than Port Town. Brinstar is alright, but I don't see why anyone would actually want to play there when there are soooo many better stages.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I would rather play on stages like Norfair than stages like Rainbow Cruise, but this is Oracle's tournament and it's his decisions.
Here's a small list of reasons why some stages are commonly banned:
Castle Siege has unfair transformations and the large tilting platform.
Hyrule Castle (both 64 and melee) have broken blast zones and have campy areas.
Frigate lags with high-poly characters in doubles and has unfair transitions.
Skyworld's main stage can 'battlefield' you and I think the platforms might be broken. I've short hop - wave dashed through them few times.
Pictochat has unfair and messy transitions and the spring-x-lock-thingy is too readable.
Pirate Ship has Bombs, the Random Catapult, and gravity brakes.
Port Town does have unfair cars/transitions, as well as the 'spiking wall' on the left side of the stage. (There's a wall you fly by as you're on the main platform. If you're on the left side of the platform, you can get spiked and fly right without much warning.)
Brinstar has Lava.
Topmost Tournaments' P:M bans + reasons:
(X) Brinstar - Reason for Ban: Unfair Lava.
(X) Onett - Reason for Ban: Unfair Cars.
(X) Hyrule Castle (Melee) - Reason for Ban: Too big of an area. Also, Blast zones are semi-broken.
(X) Big Blue (Melee) - Reason for Ban: Unfair Cars.
(X) Port Town - Reason for Ban: Unfair Transitions and Cars.
(X) Pirate Ship - Reason for Ban: Unfair Transitions, Gravity breaks, Bombs, and the randomized catapult.
(X) Summit - Reason for Ban: Unfair Fish and Gravity breaks.
(X) Rainbow Cruise - Reason for Ban: Auto Scrolling takes away from gameplay.
(X) Corneria - Reason for Ban: Unfair Arwings and unfair Camping Areas.
(X) Pictochat - Reason for Ban: Unfair Transitions. Randomized elements.
(X) Flat Zone 2 - Reason for Ban: Unfair Transitions and broken Blast Zones.
(X) Frigate Orpheon - Reason for Ban: Unfair Transitions. (Also, reported lag with high-poly characters in doubles)
(X) Shadow Moses Island - Reason for Ban: Distracting elements and to many walls that allow for Fox's infinite wall combos.
(X) Mario Circuit - Reason for Ban: Unfair Cars.
G-Rabbit
Smash Journeyman
I won't be able to make this unfortunately. Army things. I will be at WHOBO however, and I'm interested in hearing more about the Road to LTC2.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Best of luck at WHOBO!
Two Questions for Oracle:
Is my 'Ice Climbers' glitch in Project: M banned in singles?
(Control two characters with one controller.)
..and will we get our venue fee or LTC fee waived if we bring setups?
WaterlessFishie
Smash Journeyman
I'll bring two full melee set ups along with an extra tv you can put w/e on
D
Deleted member
Guest
I can ask Torin to bring his Wii, P:M, and Brawl disk and we can have another P:M set.
Penguin_ftw
Smash Apprentice
If there's room in the van I can bring my cube and we can make it 3
D
Deleted member
Guest
Let's just all bring as much manageable (ie. So keep track of your stuff and don't go crazy and bring like 20 sets yourself) equipment as we can and if we don't end up using it then we just don't. The more the merrier, I always say.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I don't know if I can go, due to money problems, but if I can, I'll be there for sure.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'd imagine the LTC fee can't be waived. Oracle talked to me at dime 4 and I'm pretty sure hes looking for all the money to raise a more successful tournament than the first LTC.
SiriusBull
Smash Cadet
If I can get off work I might come, y'all don't know me I just got on these forums yesterday, but I'll try to talk a friend into joining me as well.
I have a question though, do you play P:M OR Melee? Or do you have to play both?
I have a question though, do you play P:M OR Melee? Or do you have to play both?
D
Deleted member
Guest
You don't HAVE to enter both events, but there are Project:M and Melee singles and doubles.
SiriusBull
Smash Cadet
If you wanted to do both, would you need to pay the $10 fee twice?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yes, each game has its own event so you pay for each one.