Proof that Sakurai *is* in touch with his franchise...(New Interview w/ Sakurai)

[Tagxy]

I love Project M very much (more than the other Smash games), but a world where Sakurai's "experiment" didn't happen is a world where Brawl would have a better chance of being accepted instead of dividing the community. A world where people are less likely to get frustrated by the final results of high level Brawl play due to them not being so...controversial. Also, Project M and all the other mods were greatly aided by the Wii (and Brawl in particular which no matter what Nintendo does, they can't patch out the Custom stages exploit) being so easily moddable that today, anyone can just put some files on their SD card and have PM running. The whole thing was lightning in a bottle. Sakurai could make Smash 4 just as divisive and discouraging of competitive play as Brawl, but I doubt another modding community or PM will surface.

Again, I see a bunch of posts talking about how Sakurai is clearly trying to appease both Brawl fans and Melee fans who didn't enjoy Brawl. But what exactly are you seeing besides a slight increase in speed? All I see is edgehogging getting removed and most Melee mechanics staying buried. All I see are throws sending characters too far to get anything off of them whether it be combos, tech chases, or even just better position, yet not far enough to be decent kill moves unless you're Mario or Bowser. If the game is clearly trying to be for everyone instead of folks who liked Brawl, can someone show a demonstration in video footage?

@ Tagxy Smash has an inherent broad appeal that goes beyond whether or not the game is fast or you can wavedash. As long as we have the same simple controls we've had since 64 and 2-4 player rumbles with our favorite Nintendo characters and items, Smash will always have its broad appeal. Even with a dumb mechanic like L-canceling (I like what it does for the game, but I believe landing lag should just be lower overall than have to press L everytime). It really doesn't matter.

And I don't know what I misunderstood about Brawl. I've watched some vids in the last year and it looks the same as always. Is there skill involved? Yes. Is there some complexity? Yes. Is it the same overly defensive and campy game it's been slammed for all these years? Yes.

I think its easy to say the game has appeal to people who are fans of smash, but the game needs to be able to draw in people at a certain level if they're to eventually stay for other aspects of the game.

What youre misunderstanding is an eye for top level play. Brawl is long and slower paced, but it isnt overly defensive or campy or the game would degenerate to intentional timeouts and a lack of approaching. If thats your take away from competent Brawl play then I stand by my statement. What can be said is that Brawl is more defensive and (perhaps) campier than than melee. Granted melee at top level is more defensive than people are willing to admit, and camping is a contentious since 3 of the best characters in the game (fox, falco, shiek) have powerful projectiles that you dont see as frequently in top level brawl. Granted theres also the implication that having a faster pace is inherently better, which I disagree with to an extent. It comes down to opinion, but if you look at a game like Project M the game is fun like any community mod would be, but shallow in its competitive gameplay compared to melee and brawl (cant give an opinion on 64) in spite of its faster pace, which ultimately makes decisions on what game people play come down to preference and what people hope to get out of a game. Since Im likely to be asked what makes PM shallow, approaching and punishing are handed to you in PM to a much larger degree than you see in other smash titles which gives it a more casual-competitive tilt.

If you don't ride sakurai's D people get upset. Actions speak louder than words if he is trying to appeal to both hardcore and casuals you would see it. He is making a better game than brawl that is for sure at least for now.

I have nothing against you personally and dont mind what your opinions are, Im only bothered by outright false statements and shallow analysis that attempt to characterize the games. If you want to say a game is bad fine, but dont make up false facts or info to back it up.

What? I just don't think Sakuari fully understands what it is about Melee as a game that has kept interest high for all these years. The higher speed and displays of skill add to the appeal, but there are more fundamental reasons why Melee continues to enjoy a dedicated fanbase.

I really hope Sakuari's outlook does not reflect what aspects of Melee the dev team considered when trying to find a middle ground.

I actually think its the reverse in some cases. Certain competitive players tend to think a game needs complex inputs to be appealing. Of course if this isnt you, then his statements dont really apply to you.

 

[Snakeyes]

This is just a casual example of what goes on all day on this forum from vocal "Melee preferenced" players. Direct contradiction.

The direct contradictions are only there if you specifically look for them. Project M is noticeably slower and less twitchy than Melee, yet the latter's community has (for the most part) openly embraced the former. To me, this is clear proof that game speed, in and of itself, isn't the main element that makes tournament Smash so exciting for competitive players, and a much more reliable gauge on what most of the Melee community wants out of a Smash game than a handful of posts on a message board.

And for the record, I actually prefer Smash 64.

RE: Sakurai and smash 4 complexity
@ Snakeyes @ Johnknight1 @Tristan_win @ JV5Chris @Rhubarbo
I believe theres a lot of confusion regarding sakurais statements. The confusion being that yall seem to think Sakurai takes an axe to anything that requires skill in order to even the playing field.
a) Its evident sakurai values certain types of skill, the core concept that the smash series is built around is the 'ad lib' which in itself creates deep competitive gameplay.
b) Reading carefully through his interviews its possible to realize what sakurai dislikes are complicated inputs, which is where most or all of his criticisms of competitive play are directed. Indeed, reducing complexity is an important and significant goal of game design.

Not sure why you're quoting me, then. The things I mentioned (satisfying physics, movement options and responsiveness) contribute to the overall feel of the game regardless of one's skill level.

 

[metaXzero]

I think its easy to say the game has appeal to people who are fans of smash, but the game needs to be able to draw in people at a certain level if they're to eventually stay for other aspects of the game.

What youre misunderstanding is an eye for top level play. Brawl is long and slower paced, but it isnt overly defensive or campy or the game would degenerate to intentional timeouts and a lack of approaching.

What? Isn't this why alot of Brawl tournaments now (well what little are left) use 1 stock instead of 3? Because the game DID degenerate to intentional timeouts and lack of approaching (especially when someone got a stock lead)? IDK what Brawl you're watching. Yes, you can be campy in Melee, but it's less rewarding since you can seriously get wrecked if your defense falters compared to Brawl where if it isn't an Ice Climber grab, you just take a small percent gain and go back to neutral.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

What? Isn't this why alot of Brawl tournaments now (well what little are left) use 1 stock instead of 3? Because the game DID degenerate to intentional timeouts and lack of approaching (especially when someone got a stock lead)? IDK what Brawl you're watching. Yes, you can be campy in Melee, but it's less rewarding since you can seriously get wrecked if your defense falters compared to Brawl where if it isn't an Ice Climber grab, you just take a small percent gain and go back to neutral.

you are wrong they tested 1 stock to have tournaments not drag on and overall have a swift and more entertaining watch. witch it succeeded in but but the competitors did not seem to all like the idea much.

 

[JV5Chris]

I actually think its the reverse in some cases. Certain competitive players tend to think a game needs complex inputs to be appealing. Of course if this isnt you, then his statements dont really apply to you.

The higher technical ceiling in Melee is something many do get a lot of enjoyment out of, including myself. Lots of gamers like having something execution related to work towards. It's not what fundamentally makes Melee such a strong competitive game though.

I'm not sure how his thoughts on Melee don't apply to me when I enjoy the game and would prefer to see the best elements carry over to Smash 4 and be expanded on.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The higher technical ceiling in Melee is something many do get a lot of enjoyment out of, including myself. Lots of gamers like having something execution related to work towards. It's not what fundamentally makes Melee such a strong competitive game though.

I'm not sure how his thoughts on Melee don't apply to me when I enjoy the game and would prefer to see the best elements carry over to Smash 4 and be expanded on.

its just whats considered the best element to you may not be to him.
it a very opinionated thing. while there are many gamers that would love some technical execution. there are plenty of other gamers that hate those executions (usually the larger base too sadly)

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

What? I just don't think Sakuari fully understands what it is about Melee as a game that has kept interest high for all these years. The higher speed and displays of skill add to the appeal, but there are more fundamental reasons why Melee continues to enjoy a dedicated fanbase.

I really hope Sakuari's outlook here does not reflect what aspects of Melee the dev team considered when trying to find a middle ground.

So if it's not the tech...
And it's not the speed...
Then what is it? I can't figure out any way that one could think Melee was better without dipping into those two. The whole freedom of character only exists in Melee because of the ATs. If it's not that, then the hyper-agressive gameplay is only thanks to the hyper-speed at which higher level games play at.

 

[PCHU]

its just whats considered the best element to you may not be to him.
it a very opinionated thing. while there are many gamers that would love some technical execution. there are plenty of other gamers that hate those executions (usually the larger base too sadly)

What I don't really understand is why most seem to act like every character in Melee is Fox or Falco.
If you want to main them and work towards that insane technical ceiling, I encourage it, but I don't really think people should complain when there are other options available.
Marth, Sheik, and Jigglypuff are well-rounded enough as characters to where you could most likely get by without l-canceling, and wavedashing is simply a tool for mobility and positioning.
The game as a whole was very input-heavy when it came to comboing because of how the characters worked; most didn't have a simple combo starter outside (at 0%) outside of a uthrow.
Still, if you want to do pretty much anything reminiscent of a combo or attack string with any character throughout the series, you have to put in some form of work -- that's where all of the games become input-heavy in the eyes of the more casual-minded.

I guess I just mean that you can't look at something out of your reach, say you want it, and not be willing to work to get it or at least find another way to get it.
There are so many other options available, but everyone seems to act like it's absolutely necessary to drillshine -> waveshine forward -> doubleshine -> drillshine usmash.

 

[metaXzero]

you are wrong they tested 1 stock to have tournaments not drag on and overall have a swift and more entertaining watch. witch it succeeded in but but the competitors did not seem to all like the idea much.

So Brawl drags on, is not swift, and isn't as entertaining as it could be? And why is that if its not because its campy and discouraging of approaching? And you said tested as if they are done and not doing it anymore. I'm seeing videos that go back all year and the latest one being within the last 2 weeks. That doesn't sound like it was that unsatisfactory or that it's even done.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So if it's not the tech...
And it's not the speed...
Then what is it? I can't figure out any way that one could think Melee was better without dipping into those two. The whole freedom of character only exists in Melee because of the ATs. If it's not that, then the hyper-agressive gameplay is only thanks to the hyper-speed at which higher level games play at.

It was the design of the game that made melee have the longevity it dose.

What I don't really understand is why most seem to act like every character in Melee is Fox or Falco.
If you want to main them and work towards that insane technical ceiling, I encourage it, but I don't really think people should complain when there are other options available.
Marth, Sheik, and Jigglypuff are well-rounded enough as characters to where you could most likely get by without l-canceling, and wavedashing is simply a tool for mobility and positioning.
The game as a whole was very input-heavy when it came to comboing because of how the characters worked; most didn't have a simple combo starter outside (at 0%) outside of a uthrow.
Still, if you want to do pretty much anything reminiscent of a combo or attack string with any character throughout the series, you have to put in some form of work -- that's where all of the games become input-heavy in the eyes of the more casual-minded.

I guess I just mean that you can't look at something out of your reach, say you want it, and not be willing to work to get it or at least find another way to get it.
There are so many other options available, but everyone seems to act like it's absolutely necessary to drillshine -> waveshine forward -> doubleshine -> drillshine usmash.

This makes sense as well. Fair opinion. But Kinda missing the point. Unless your talking about some people around smash boards. But it seems like to me that sakurai dose not want the losing opponent to lose to something he dose not understand.
in witch he understood the inputs the winning player was doing. But simply got beat out right since the other was the better player.

 

[JV5Chris]

its just whats considered the best element to you may not be to him.

That's the thing, I'm not sure Sakurai has any real interest in evaluating what aspects of Melee are fundamentally contributing to the game's legs.

So if it's not the tech...
And it's not the speed...
Then what is it? I can't figure out any way that one could think Melee was better without dipping into those two. The whole freedom of character only exists in Melee because of the ATs. If it's not that, then the hyper-agressive gameplay is only thanks to the hyper-speed at which higher level games play at.

As Snake Eyes mentioned, Melee's physics, options, and responsiveness.

 

[mygamecube]

This boy @pickle962 basically wrote a novel on the last page lmao god damn. Passionate read tho

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

So if it's not the tech...
And it's not the speed...
Then what is it?

Options.

 

[Wintropy]

I just play for the cool characters and wonderful lore.

Each to their own, though, each to their own. It's nice that everybody's so passionate about their perspectives, one way or another. Good reads!

 

[Swedish_Otaku]

Everyone isn't going to like the thing you like. You said its about the player and their attitude. Every player is going to be different and want different things. And that's not a bad thing.

Of course, then they can continue to play Melee... But then I'm just gonna feel sorry for them and Smash it self because they are stuck.

Well, there comes a point where people want to speak their mind about something.
Not everyone's going to be content with the new Smash because not everyone enjoyed the way Brawl played (and just the same, not everyone enjoyed how Melee was).
I'm glad that Smash 4 is aiming to fix some of the previous issues, but some people (myself included) just want a little bit more out of the game.
Smash 4 may not incorporate these changes, but is voicing an opinion really that awful?
As much as I've said about Smash 4 and the way it could possibly be "improved", I'll play it regardless because I enjoy the Smash series and the game looks enjoyable.
The very same went for Brawl (and even Project M).

It's awful when you say you don't like Brawl even though you like Melee. It's impossible because it's still Smash. You can like something more or less, but not hate or love when they are so close. That's my main problem with such people. Just accept that the game is different, different doesn't automatically mean bad. There will be new things discovered in Smash 4 years after it's release. But people are scared of change and they are too lazy to start all over again.

... and I don't know how it could be competitive at all without these.

Pretty much anything and any game in the world can be just as competitive as Melee. Just because you can't do something you can do in one game, doesn't make it any less competitive.

 

[josh bones]

Of course, then they can continue to play Melee... But then I'm just gonna feel sorry for them and Smash it self because they are stuck.


It's awful when you say you don't like Brawl even though you like Melee. It's impossible because it's still Smash. You can like something more or less, but not hate or love when they are so close. That's my main problem with such people. Just accept that the game is different, different doesn't automatically mean bad. There will be new things discovered in Smash 4 years after it's release. But people are scared of change and they are too lazy to start all over again.


Pretty much anything and any game in the world can be just as competitive as Melee. Just because you can't do something you can do in one game, doesn't make it any less competitive.

Ummmmmmmm,
what the hell did I just read?
You are calling people like ppmd armada etc. stuck because they judge games by quality and not the shiny new hd title? Yeah, no

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I don't agree with what Sakurai is saying.

He was never out of touch with his fans, he's just set in his ways.

If this thread has showed me anything, it's that people here generally don't know what it means to play a game "casually" and that it is apparently impossible for players to casually enjoy a game like street fighter, which is a strait up lie.

I loved playing games like Marvel vs Capcom, Marvel Super Heroes, Street Fighter 2 and Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter as a child, and I didn't even know how to do a hadouken; atleast not until I was like 10.

The real issue isn't the game, it's the lack of integrity and abundance of self-entitlement that gamers have today. It happens on both sides of the spectrum. Avid gamers who cannot perform demand a game be pandered to them, and pass themselves as casual players as a weak ass defense mechanism, and the ones who can perform and aren't satisfied demand a game with dense technical barriers. The ridiculous thing about it is that Melee satisfied both audiences. As did street fighter, or any other fighting game; atleast they did for me and my friends. But people start complaining about things and a group of whiners--the "Now that I think of it"'s start saying that games are too hard, when that really didn't even affect them at that age.

If Melee, or any other fighter for that matter, is difficult for you, then I'm sorry. But if you are complaining and refuse to put in the work necessary, then stop and know your level. I know the saying is "don't hate the player, hate the game", but I feel like this scenario requires some player hating. In your eternal refute of having a game of depth, has the complainer ever considered that he/she doesn't have to compete at the same level as another player, and if you are not willing to put in the work to get better, then why are you trying to compete against players in a situation where the game can become mentally taxing despite the technical limitations in the game? Has the player considered that playing in tournament can invoke different stresses than just playing with a group of friends? Given the reception of avid fighting game players on this forum, probably not, so I guess the best thing to do was to attack the lowest common denominator, the tech barrier or the player who is willing to work at being good at something. I can complain about how much I hate Calculus , geometric proofs and derivatives all I want, but if I'm not steadily studying, why should I expect to be on par with the students that do? I know it's not the same thing, as you actually need math to benefit you in life--which begs the question, if you aren't trying to improve on your own merits, then why does it bother you (the complainer) so much? Do you feel that something that is a hobby should revolve around your schedule? While it is great if games can do that, games do not have to cator to your convenience. Can't practice a shoryuken? Too bad--being a competetive hobbyist is not cut out for you, as it's an activity that thrives on your disposable time. That's just how it is.

Whatever direction the game takes, I will undoubtably accept it as I love smash bros., but think about the state of gaming right now, where consumer input panders to the player who was probably the best among his group of friends, believes he's the best, gets stomped, the frantically complains to the company because the foundation of his gaming ego got shattered. So instead of picking the pieces up, he throws them at your face and demands you to fix it. Why should the developer have to?--it's your ****, fix it yourself.

It's really sad how many people have shifted into this mode where people are attacked for not succumbing to groupthink. This whole issue literally started from one sentence from a developer who (get this) many of you never knew about before Super Smash Bros. Brawl was announced. I'll admit it, I didn't have a clue as to who he was. So I implore you, if you are in my age group, and you solemnly believe that these games were too hard for you back then, that you couldn't enjoy them for what they were, that they were too demanding, take a second...and think for yourself.

Think for your f***ing self.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I don't agree with what Sakurai is saying.

He was never out of touch with his fans, he's just set in his ways.

If this thread has showed me anything, it's that people here generally don't know what it means to play a game "casually" and that it is apparently impossible for players to casually enjoy a game like street fighter, which is a strait up lie.

I loved playing games like Marvel vs Capcom, Marvel Super Heroes, Street Fighter 2 and Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter as a child, and I didn't even know how to do a hadouken; atleast not until I was like 10.

The real issue isn't the game, it's the lack of integrity and abundance of self-entitlement that gamers have today. It happens on both sides of the spectrum. Avid gamers who cannot perform demand a game be pandered to them, and pass themselves as casual players as a weak *** defense mechanism, and the ones who can perform and aren't satisfied demand a game with dense technical barriers. The ridiculous thing about it is that Melee satisfied both audiences. As did street fighter, or any other fighting game; atleast they did for me and my friends. But people start complaining about things and a group of whiners--the "Now that I think of it"'s start saying that games are too hard, when that really didn't even affect them at that age.

If Melee, or any other fighter for that matter, is difficult for you, then I'm sorry. But if you are complaining and refuse to put in the work necessary, then stop and know your level. I know the saying is "don't hate the player, hate the game", but I feel like this scenario requires some player hating. In your eternal refute of having a game of depth, has the complainer ever considered that he/she doesn't have to compete at the same level as another player, and if you are not willing to put in the work to get better, then why are you trying to compete against players in a situation where the game can become mentally taxing despite the technical limitations in the game? Has the player considered that playing in tournament can invoke different stresses than just playing with a group of friends? Given the reception of avid fighting game players on this forum, probably not, so I guess the best thing to do was to attack the lowest common denominator, the tech barrier or the player who is willing to work at being good at something. I can complain about how much I hate Calculus , geometric proofs and derivatives all I want, but if I'm not steadily studying, why should I expect to be on par with the students that do? I know it's not the same thing, as you actually need math to benefit you in life--which begs the question, if you aren't trying to improve on your own merits, then why does it bother you (the complainer) so much? Do you feel that something that is a hobby should revolve around your schedule? While it is great if games can do that, games do not have to cator to your convenience. Can't practice a shoryuken? Too bad--being a competetive hobbyist is not cut out for you, as it's an activity that thrives on your disposable time. That's just how it is.

Whatever direction the game takes, I will undoubtably accept it as I love smash bros., but think about the state of gaming right now, where consumer input panders to the player who was probably the best among his group of friends, believes he's the best, gets stomped, the frantically complains to the company because the foundation of his gaming ego got shattered. So instead of picking the pieces up, he throws them at your face and demands you to fix it. Why should the developer have to?--it's your ****, fix it yourself.

It's really sad how many people have shifted into this mode where people are attacked for not succumbing to groupthink. This whole issue literally started from one sentence from a developer who (get this) many of you never knew about before Super Smash Bros. Brawl was announced. I'll admit it, I didn't have a clue as to who he was. So I implore you, if you are in my age group, and you solemnly believe that these games were too hard for you back then, that you couldn't enjoy them for what they were, that they were too demanding, take a second...and think for yourself.

Think for your f***ing self.

One could argue the inverse of what you're saying, and say that the hardcore hyper competitive crowd is just as guilty of demanding that all things pander to them, and if anything deviates from it, the game is garbage, and they'll never let the "betrayal" go. If this were any other game other than Smash, I might actually agree with you. I think it's absolutely absurd to go onto Dustloop and start demanding that BlazBlue/Guilty Gear/Persona 4 Arena be easier to perform.

But to me, they're vastly different games where accessibility ISN'T given much thought. When I play those games, I know EXACTLY what I'm getting into. I know those games aren't for me, and I have no issue being stomped in those games, because I know I do not have the physical dexterity to pull off the more advanced stuff. (Although I am proud of my Yosuke, but that's a different story altogether.)

To me, Smash is a game that thrives because of its ease and accessibility, and demanding that the game be catered to those who can perform the incredibly fine-tuned and hard to pull off techniques/combos in a game like Smash is absurd. What it tells me is that these same people don't believe a game can be deep, or interesting without it being played at 40x speed.

And that's terrible.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The only thing hard about smash techs was just doing everything you already knew how to do, just do it faster. There was base knowledge you had to know like jump canceling and l-canceling, but that's it.

To wavedash, you need to know how to jump and air dodge in a direction. You know how to do that, so do it faster.

To Focus Attack Dash cancel in Street Fighter 4, you need to know how to Know how to do the attack, what time during the attack you can cancel it and you need to know that you can dash out of a focus attack.

So, essentially, the wavedash is easy to EXECUTE as you require less base knowledge to do it, but neither are easy to use in combat. That comes with knowledge.

And Persona 4 has auto combos for new players, but it still has great competitive potential. Smash 4 should take a page out of that games book, honestly.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

L-canceling I'll give you (should just be have low landing lag by default), but how was anything else archaic? What inviting and innovative mechanics are you seeing? Cause all I see is the LACK of new or old mechanics making the game more inviting. Not that Smash needs to be more inviting. It's 2 attack buttons, jump, and shield/dodge. It's Nintendo all-stars with up to 4 players. And no matter what happens, the vast majority will either remain ignorant of the competitive scene or will be put off by even stuff like no items, the "clearly broken character" being allowed, or people being "cheap".

But back to my other point, what again is Sakurai doing to appease people who weren't fans of Brawl? What is he doing to bring the Melee excitement back?

What "inviting new mechanics" do I see, you ask? I see the ability to treat run-stop as if it were standing idle. That's new, and significant. You can do ANYTHING out of a run now, and based on footage we've seen in things like the Little Mac trailer (dash > UTilt > Spiral Uppercut) it looks like it's quite easy to get the timing perfect.

 

[Tagxy]

A high quality game's goal should not be to provide as many options as possible, it should be to provide as much depth as it can. Options are a vessel towards creating depth (<<<<remember this), but at the same time are also capable of removing it if the game becomes too complex or convoluted. Project M is a good example of this in action (fun game, but way too much complexity with little depth added).

The higher technical ceiling in Melee is something many do get a lot of enjoyment out of, including myself. Lots of gamers like having something execution related to work towards. It's not what fundamentally makes Melee such a strong competitive game though.

I'm not sure how his thoughts on Melee don't apply to me when I enjoy the game and would prefer to see the best elements carry over to Smash 4 and be expanded on.

Not sure why you're quoting me, then. The things I mentioned (satisfying physics, movement options and responsiveness) contribute to the overall feel of the game regardless of one's skill level.

Hmm, well I guess Im just not sure why you folks would be bothered about something subjective like this in the first place when he didnt touch on anything but melees complexity anyways. But its not for me to say what does or doesnt personally bother you, I incorrectly assumed you were upset about something he said instead of something he didnt. Also note Sakurai said "fundamentally", meaning aspects of speed can be found in various aspects of the game's attributes.

So Brawl drags on, is not swift, and isn't as entertaining as it could be? And why is that if its not because its campy and discouraging of approaching? And you said tested as if they are done and not doing it anymore. I'm seeing videos that go back all year and the latest one being within the last 2 weeks. That doesn't sound like it was that unsatisfactory or that it's even done.

What? Isn't this why alot of Brawl tournaments now (well what little are left) use 1 stock instead of 3? Because the game DID degenerate to intentional timeouts and lack of approaching (especially when someone got a stock lead)? IDK what Brawl you're watching. Yes, you can be campy in Melee, but it's less rewarding since you can seriously get wrecked if your defense falters compared to Brawl where if it isn't an Ice Climber grab, you just take a small percent gain and go back to neutral.

No, the game took a long time it had nothing to do with degenerate gameplay. You cant find consistent gameplay footage of the attributes you describe, not moreso than youd find in melee anyways (jiggs - toon link in melee is the most timeout oriented matchup in smash). So once again I stand by my original statement, not intended to be offensive but you have a misunderstanding eye for top level play.

Also defense doesnt get you "seriously wrecked" in melee as consistently as offense does. Slow characters like Jiggs, Peach, and Samus are defensive fortresses and force characters like spacies into being more defensive as well because of their powerful punishment game (pay attention to how these matches occur at a high level like MLG and EVO). Brawl is slow and likely a bit more defensive than melee, but since you dont have to worry as much about losing your stock to a mistake eventually people will gamble on an approach when they feel comfortable from a read or opponents mistake.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

The only thing hard about smash techs was just doing everything you already knew how to do, just do it faster. There was base knowledge you had to know like jump canceling and l-canceling, but that's it.

To wavedash, you need to know how to jump and air dodge in a direction. You know how to do that, so do it faster.

To Focus Attack Dash cancel in Street Fighter 4, you need to know how to Know how to do the attack, what time during the attack you can cancel it and you need to know that you can dash out of a focus attack.

So, essentially, the wavedash is easy to EXECUTE as you require less base knowledge to do it, but neither are easy to use in combat. That comes with knowledge.

And Persona 4 has auto combos for new players, but it still has great competitive potential. Smash 4 should take a page out of that games book, honestly.

The speed is what turned people off though. It was the sheer speed of competitive high-level Melee that many people hate. It's TOO fast.

Let's assume, for a moment, that what everyone on the competitive side is saying is true, is true. Smash should be a hardcore, complex, 'deep' game with an EXTREMELY high skill ceiling and a relatively high skill floor (at least for tournament play, not just basic, 'lets **** around play'.).

This would make Smash quite literally, the most poorly designed fighting game ever.

Look at it from the prospective of a casual player, a player who has just picked up the game. Let's assume that player isn't very good at fighting games as a whole. He can't play Street Fighter well, he can't play Arc System Works games very well, his fingers are just kinda dumb. He picks up Smash though, and thinks to himself, "Hey! This game is easy! The controls are simple, the speed is slower than other fighting games, and the characters are my favorite Nintendo characters! I could probably go to a tournament in a couple of months and give some people a run for their money!"

The poor guy has no idea about ATs. They aren't told, aren't listed, and the CPU barely does them, if at all. So he plays for a few months, and later on goes to a tournament.

And gets FLOORED. He's 4 stocked in the first fight. Hell, he might not even land a single hit. Insta-lose and a lost of 5-10$.

Unless you have a masochistic, fetishistic approach to losing (like a number of people on here seem to have) your average person is going to quit right then and there! The game tricked them! Made them think they stood a chance, before some guy who's been playing religiously for years stomps them with moves they didn't even know existed, much less could perform regularily!

That right there would PISS ME OFF. I'd feel cheated, like I was promised a box of chocolates, only to find out 90% of them were filled with toothpaste. I was led to believe one thing from everything else in the game, and other players turned it into literally yet another fighting game I wouldn't stand a chance in.

Now go ahead and call me spoiled, or call me whiny or whatever you want, but I honestly think that what people want (let's be honest, many people want a more polished up version of Melee with new characters/stages) is a terrible decision that goes against what I feel is the spirit of Smash, and the spirit of what Sakurai was trying to do. You all cry betrayal, when that wasn't even what he meant to do in the first place!

(and I do enjoy hard games. I'm a large fan of Dark Souls, both first and second. I play Arc System Works games even though most people crush me at them, and I dislike games that I feel are too simple. But I dislike games that pull a fast one on me even more.)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The speed is what turned people off though. It was the sheer speed of competitive high-level Melee that many people hate. It's TOO fast.

Let's assume, for a moment, that what everyone on the competitive side is saying is true, is true. Smash should be a hardcore, complex, 'deep' game with an EXTREMELY high skill ceiling and a relatively high skill floor (at least for tournament play, not just basic, 'lets **** around play'.).

This would make Smash quite literally, the most poorly designed fighting game ever.

Look at it from the prospective of a casual player, a player who has just picked up the game. Let's assume that player isn't very good at fighting games as a whole. He can't play Street Fighter well, he can't play Arc System Works games very well, his fingers are just kinda dumb. He picks up Smash though, and thinks to himself, "Hey! This game is easy! The controls are simple, the speed is slower than other fighting games, and the characters are my favorite Nintendo characters! I could probably go to a tournament in a couple of months and give some people a run for their money!"

The poor guy has no idea about ATs. They aren't told, aren't listed, and the CPU barely does them, if at all. So he plays for a few months, and later on goes to a tournament.

And gets FLOORED. He's 4 stocked in the first fight. Hell, he might not even land a single hit. Insta-lose and a lost of 5-10$.

Unless you have a masochistic, fetishistic approach to losing (like a number of people on here seem to have) your average person is going to quit right then and there! The game tricked them! Made them think they stood a chance, before some guy who's been playing religiously for years stomps them with moves they didn't even know existed, much less could perform regularily!

That right there would PISS ME OFF. I'd feel cheated, like I was promised a box of chocolates, only to find out 90% of them were filled with toothpaste. I was led to believe one thing from everything else in the game, and other players turned it into literally yet another fighting game I wouldn't stand a chance in.

Now go ahead and call me spoiled, or call me whiny or whatever you want, but I honestly think that what people want (let's be honest, many people want a more polished up version of Melee with new characters/stages) is a terrible decision that goes against what I feel is the spirit of Smash, and the spirit of what Sakurai was trying to do. You all cry betrayal, when that wasn't even what he meant to do in the first place!

(and I do enjoy hard games. I'm a large fan of Dark Souls, both first and second. I play Arc System Works games even though most people crush me at them, and I dislike games that I feel are too simple. But I dislike games that pull a fast one on me even more.)

If you take the time to read my post, you'll see that I don't feel like the game should cator to tech heavy players, but it's not fair that people could whine about something enough that didn't affect them because they want to pretend to be good.

It doesn't matter how much tech you know. If you wavedash into my Falcon Punch the tech serves you no purpose. What I'm trying to say is that it's a bad reason to limit a games options, especially if they are inexperienced; it's a cop out. Melee came out when I was 12, and everyone I knew who played it didn't have a problem with it. I'm sorry, but the Melee was too hard excuse is bull****, and you can trace the lineage of it to the bull**** dynasty that emerged around 2006 when people actually knew who Sakurai was. Your 8-12 year old mind was not rattled by Melee's speed. Given how frantic and crazy smash is, it was none of anyone's concern.

The game doesn't have to be tech heavy, Just give the player the ability to do SOMETHING, because everyone is just going to complain about something else making them lose. This wouldn't even be an issue if players reflected inward to a loss or shortcoming and focused on improving instead of complaining all the time.

I got my ass handed to me a lot in fighting games. I never blamed anyone or convinced myself there was something I couldn't do; I put in the work and figured something out. All the time spent complaining on the forum could be spent getting your **** together.

How many of the top players do you see here complaining about the game? None. Because they are out there making a name for themselves.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

If you take the time to read my post, you'll see that I don't feel like the game should cator to tech heavy players, but it's not fair that people could whine about something enough that didn't affect them because they want to pretend to be good.

It doesn't matter how much tech you know. If you wavedash into my Falcon Punch the tech serves you no purpose. What I'm trying to say is that it's a bad reason to limit a games options, especially if they are inexperienced; it's a cop out. Melee came out when I was 12, and everyone I knew who played it didn't have a problem with it. I'm sorry, but the Melee was too hard excuse is bull****, and you can trace the lineage of it to the bull**** dynasty that emerged around 2006 when people actually knew who Sakurai was. Your 8-12 year old mind was not rattled by Melee's speed. Given how frantic and crazy smash is, it was none of anyone's concern.

The game doesn't have to be tech heavy, Just give the player the ability to do SOMETHING, because everyone is just going to complain about something else making them lose. This wouldn't even be an issue if players reflected inward to a loss or shortcoming and focused on improving instead of complaining all the time.

I got my *** handed to me a lot in fighting games. I never blamed anyone or convinced myself there was something I couldn't do; I put in the work and figured something out. All the time spent complaining on the forum could be spent getting your **** together.

How many of the top players do you see here complaining about the game? None. Because they are out there making a name for themselves.

For you, being able to take that adversity and overcome it is fine. Honestly, I admire that mindset. But for everyone of you, there are at least 10 others who find that constant failure to be nothing more than a reason to stop playing, because they feel that there is such a wide skill gap, that they can never cross it, at least not without being incredibly naturally gifted. Too many people have a fetishistic approach to losing to the point where a game is better the harder it is. which is something I wholeheartedly disagree with.

 

[Tagxy]

I would hope that people do not necessarily want something that has less depth or challenge. If they do that's certainly scruby thinking. On the other hand I think people need to understand that melee was too mechanically complex. I wouldnt say its good game design when top level players are hurting their hands, need specific controllers, and in general require naturally great reflexes to succeed. For this reason one attribute of melee and its community is that many of its players dont even care or try to be the best at the game anymore, they just concede that they wont achieve the levels of its top level players for reasons described. Even new players who should be the ones trying to be the best like no one ever was, it seems that way among them too. Id call that unfortunate and not the best design for a game. Theres already enough competition inherent in well designed games and player interaction without requiring so many complex external physical conditions.

Separate note, as far as it applies to new players, as I mentioned earlier it was easier to get away with complex mechanics 12-6 years ago because people werent aware of them like they are now. A game like melee could not be as friendly to novices now as it was in 2001. Sakurai sort of implied that in his interview as well.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

For you, being able to take that adversity and overcome it is fine. Honestly, I admire that mindset. But for everyone of you, there are at least 10 others who find that constant failure to be nothing more than a reason to stop playing, because they feel that there is such a wide skill gap, that they can never cross it, at least not without being incredibly naturally gifted. Too many people have a fetishistic approach to losing to the point where a game is better the harder it is. which is something I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I feel the same way, the game doesn't have to be physically harder to become appealing, that's why I personally feel like Project M is garbage. But I believe that when you take something out of a game, something should be there to replace the game. This what makes a game consistent, fluent, dynamic. Players should always have access to the same number of tools as the next player, but a character should be able to implement what they have in a way they see fit. This boils down to the number of neutral options available from each action.

Take the Run-Stop cancel for example. When you run and stop, you skid, and during that skid you have access to any neutral option instead of a dash attack. You would think that it makes dash attacks useless because you truly don't have to commit to a dash, but if you remove the ability to dash attack during a skid, you would still have to commit to a dash for it's intended purpose, and by buffing dash attacks so more people will be inclined to use them.

Or wavelanding, which was vastly more useful than wavedashing, allowed you to do more than just wait for an opponent to do something if they tech on a platform then just play chicken. If someone teched on a platform and they had a habit of teching in the same direction and shielding you could land on the platform and grab them (same with platform canceling). Sounds like it can cripple defense? Introduce tech jumping where you can jump off of a tech at the cost of using your second jump, so if they miss the grab, you can counter attack from the air, but you are still vulnerable if the opponent reads you.

There are many more things you can do to introduce depth then making the game more complicated.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I feel the same way, the game doesn't have to be physically harder to become appealing, that's why I personally feel like Project M is garbage. But I believe that when you take something out of a game, something should be there to replace the game. This what makes a game consistent, fluent, dynamic. Players should always have access to the same number of tools as the next player, but a character should be able to implement what they have in a way they see fit. This boils down to the number of neutral options available from each action.

Take the Run-Stop cancel for example. When you run and stop, you skid, and during that skid you have access to any neutral option instead of a dash attack. You would think that it makes dash attacks useless because you truly don't have to commit to a dash, but if you remove the ability to dash attack during a skid, you would still have to commit to a dash for it's intended purpose, and by buffing dash attacks so more people will be inclined to use them.

Or wavelanding, which was vastly more useful than wavedashing, allowed you to do more than just wait for an opponent to do something if they tech on a platform then just play chicken. If someone teched on a platform and they had a habit of teching in the same direction and shielding you could land on the platform and grab them (same with platform canceling). Sounds like it can cripple defense? Introduce tech jumping where you can jump off of a tech at the cost of using your second jump, so if they miss the grab, you can counter attack from the air, but you are still vulnerable if the opponent reads you.

There are many more things you can do to introduce depth then making the game more complicated.

On those points, I can totally agree with you. I have no issue with techniques being in the game at all, as long as they don't deviate from what makes Smash, Smash; that is to say, accessibility. Run-stop cancel, from what I've read, is exceedingly easy to perform, worlds more than Wavedashing. For one, the time frame in which one can act doesn't feel as tight as what Wavedashing seems. Wavelanding, I'll honestly say I'm not entirely sure how you perform such, so I'll deign to comment on that.

I think my biggest issue goes back to speed, which is something that is a subject of debate to this day. I will agree that Brawl is too slow, but to me, Melee's speed, (and I want to specify for higher level Melee play) is just far too fast for my comfort. As Sm4sh is supposed to be a middle ground, this just makes me extra excited, as it seems like Sakurai has found a nicely happy medium in which to let his vision flourish, without screwing over either side of the debate. (At least not completely.)

 

[Johnknight1]

While I respect you being passionate about your opinion, you need to tone down on the insults, like all of them.

Please... feed him infractions. There's no reason he should get away with saying stuff like this about those of us who are skeptical about the game being fun and deep competitively...

wow...I come back to check and see how this thread is going and there are a few people on this and the last page I personally want to meet in public just for the satisfaction of kicking their smug ***** and then setting fire to their sacred well worn pizza sauce stained copy of Melee and shove 4 somewhere the sun don't shine....

For starters, basing your groundless assumptions about an unreleased game based off of a very outdated build for the demoes we have had for both versions of the game and stating your grossly misguided opinions as FACT is not cool and makes you look like the kind of people us true smash fans strive NOT to be and also makes the community look to outsiders like whiny little ****s who probably wouldn't be even satisfied with a straight up copy and paste Melee sequel even if it had all the glitches/bugs/Mewtwo's intact all because of one little "error" that somehow makes the whole product look like garbage.

Everything anyone has stated here is an opinion.

If you can't tell that, you obviously aren't literate up to a middle school level.

To the anti 4 crowd, what I am trying to say is that we who feel passionate about 4 are here to stay. Nothing negative that comes out of your mouths will deter us from carving our own niche in the community and I advise finding better things to do with your time than go out of your way to insult, trash talk, or flame us every thread that pops up dealing with 4's competitive viability or Sakurai talking about his views on finding a sweet spot between casual and competitive or rather, newcomer and experienced as the former two words are worn out and unfortunately caused drama these days as a derogatory label more than they adequately describe one's skill level with smash bros.

2. If absolutely NOTHING AT ALL changes your mind and you still have the audacity to go around talking nasty **** about the game like a low level brain cell deficient troll and instigate flame wars every chance you get with your unnecessary rubbish opinions, know that you will NOT be tolerated from here on out as we near closer to the release dates of both versions of the game, but more specifically the 3DS version which is where quite a bit of the meta I feel will be discovered/worked on in the early stages of 4's lifespan

So talking poorly about a games makes you stupid=???

You anti smash 4 gangsters can continue to (ignorantly for the most part) bash on Sakurai all you wish as he's too busy eating, sleeping, and breathing 4 to give two ****s, but when you personally make derogatory comments towards a community who enjoys what 4 will offer us when it launches soon and refuse to listen to what we have to say to counter your illogical ad hominem posts regarding certain aspects of the game, that's when you cross the line of no return and trust me, it is a line you wish you didn't cross.

The game isn't even out, therefore it isn't even a competitive community. Besides, no one is insulting it.

The Brawl community took no crap from the persistent anti Brawl idiots back in the day as they struggled to build their own place in the overall smash community and though it's not the majestic place it once was, it still continues to thrive in its own fashion ala the smash 64 community which is small and tight nit sure, but are admired all the same for their continued devotion to a game that's not as popular with most people as Melee still mostly is.

It doesn't help that many of the Brawl players and TO's and whatnot trolled the Melee community and shunned them. Texas' Brawl scene TO's, specifically Gyro, banned Melee from their tournaments, and told Melee players to GTFO.

We smash 4 obsessed fans

The game isn't out yet.

Before you randomly post with your two cents that is likely unproductive towards good conversation anyway, read up on all that's known about 4 thus far and not just the characters, stages, new stuff, etc. Read up on how much more fluid the game is compared to Brawl.

Watch GameExplain videos and learn terminology you may not have already knew and while you are at it, pay careful attention to the recent gameplay vids we have.

>GameXplain knowing competitive stuff.
>>LOL.

All but 2 of their guys hate competitive play, and 1 of the other 2 thinks Brawl is basically "Melee but better balanced", and the other admits to "not even enjoying Melee".

None of them know anything about competitive Melee or Brawl, LMAO!!! They're literally PAID to cover Smash for a living along with other series, and honestly, they don't know much. They probably don't even play Smash games judging by their comments.

In other words, don't go dumping your half slapped together opinion if you KNOW its going to attract hate and well deserved calling outs of said opinion unless you are mature enough to express the type of opinion that's generally accepted as stated above.

So what you're saying

There shall be persistent trolls, jerks, flamers, etc who will undoubtedly try to knock down our wall as we are going through the painful, but necessary process of dealing with growing pains, but they should be the least of our problems so long as we make sure to report them enough.

You just described yourself.

There will sadly be those who will still cling to Melee, Project M, or even Brawl even after 4's been out for awhile.

How is that a bad thing=???

Does this make Isai a "sad person" for only playing Smash 64=???

Seriously, gtfo with this quassi-logic.

YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO LABEL SMASHERS LIKE THIS! LET THEM PLAY WHAT THEY WANT!!!

If people don't like the game, DEAL WITH IT!!! What we are saying here negative is our opinions on what we're seeing based on Sakurai's statements. The game isn't even out yet, and you're here white knighting anything negative against the game. Then you go and group all the people with negative opinions as "bad."

===

Sorry Red Ryu, but you and the mods and super mods should infract him.

If I can get 2 freaking infraction points for posting a post saying "omg, the Brawl roster was leaked" with a imagine of the Mii Fighters wearing Meta Knight's mask, this guy should get 20 infractions points.

 

[PCHU]

On those points, I can totally agree with you. I have no issue with techniques being in the game at all, as long as they don't deviate from what makes Smash, Smash; that is to say, accessibility. Run-stop cancel, from what I've read, is exceedingly easy to perform, worlds more than Wavedashing. For one, the time frame in which one can act doesn't feel as tight as what Wavedashing seems. Wavelanding, I'll honestly say I'm not entirely sure how you perform such, so I'll deign to comment on that.

I think my biggest issue goes back to speed, which is something that is a subject of debate to this day. I will agree that Brawl is too slow, but to me, Melee's speed, (and I want to specify for higher level Melee play) is just far too fast for my comfort. As Sm4sh is supposed to be a middle ground, this just makes me extra excited, as it seems like Sakurai has found a nicely happy medium in which to let his vision flourish, without screwing over either side of the debate. (At least not completely.)

Wavelanding is performed by airdodging into the ground or onto a platform.
Really, it's half of the input of the wavedash with the same reward, much like the recent run-stop cancel.
As far as how hard it is, I can't relate since our technical experience is quite different, but it's really just an airdodge onto a platform, and timing is solely determined by how fast/high you jump.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I would hope that people do not necessarily want something that has less depth or challenge. If they do that's certainly scruby thinking. On the other hand I think people need to understand that melee was too mechanically complex. I wouldnt say its good game design when top level players are hurting their hands, need specific controllers, and in general require naturally great reflexes to succeed. For this reason one attribute of melee and its community is that many of its players dont even care or try to be the best at the game anymore, they just concede that they wont achieve the levels of its top level players for reasons described. Even new players who should be the ones trying to be the best like no one ever was, it seems that way among them too. Id call that unfortunate and not the best design for a game. Its even more unfortunate that this is Theres already enough competition inherent in well designed games and player interaction without requiring so many complex external physical conditions.

Separate note, as far as it applies to new players, as I mentioned earlier it was easier to get away with complex mechanics 12-6 years ago because people werent aware of them like they are now. A game like melee could not be as friendly to novices now as it was in 2001. Sakurai sort of implied that in his interview as well.

Want a living demonstration of this being true?

How often do we see new gods in Melee? We have literally seen the same kids on that stage for years and years.

Occasionally we get an underdog newcomer (one of those unique folks who "rises above it" that I talked about), but this does not happen often. While Melee was still evolving we saw some change (ken era, PC Chris, Azen), as it's meta game was also changing.

At this point, I don't EVER expect to see anyone come from the unknown space and consistently defeat Mango or any of the gods. Upsets happen so rarely.

New players are not coming in to Smash an aiming for the top. It's just not happening.

 

[PCHU]

Want a living demonstration of this being true?

How often do we see new gods in Melee? We have literally seen the same kids on that stage for years and years.

Occasionally we get an underdog newcomer (one of those unique folks who "rises above it" that I talked about), but this does not happen often. While Melee was still evolving we saw some change (ken era, PC Chris, Azen), as it's meta game was also changing.

At this point, I don't EVER expect to see anyone come from the unknown space and consistently defeat Mango or any of the gods. Upsets happen so rarely.

New players are not coming in to Smash an aiming for the top. It's just not happening.

While this is true to an extent, I've seen Westballz, Fly, Amsa, PewPewU, and so many more improving greatly.
And there is a reason they're called upsets -- because they -are- rare, and they aren't expected.
Do you think it was expected that Westballz would ever beat Mango, or that Amsa would ever beat M2K, or even that Abate would beat Hax?
There's a very, very large pool of excellent players out there, and I think it might just be a little early to say we've hit the peak.

All that aside, I'm certain Smash 4 will have leagues of diversity among the top players, regardless of whether or not we find more advanced techniques.
I've seen so many arguments for an against complex gameplay that I just want the game to hurry up and come out.
Maybe people will remember that they're smart enough to overcome complex opponents and technical playstyles, or even find that they're capable of much more than they thought.
I don't think anyone's hit their peak; everyone's still learning.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I think there's something missing here.

Many of us played Melee when we were younger. I did, I enjoyed it. But at the same time, not to many were involved in the competitive scene, or didn't play outside a band of friends. I don't know offhand when wavedashing caught on, but I do know I remained ignorant of it until shortly before Brawl came out. For those who weren't around when wavedash developed, going back to Melee and fighting someone outside their circle of friends was a guaranteed nightmare after Brawl was done. I know after playing Brawl and going back to Melee, the game I know I had fun with didn't get harder in the sense of the engine itself, but the people who stuck with it gained new levels, while everyone who had moved on had suddenly been BTFO by those who stuck with the game, using techniques that had literally developed outside their knowledge while they were away. That's what I feel most people mean when they say "Melee is now too hard". (I do hope they aren't trying to shove revisionist history though).

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

wow...I come back to check and see how this thread is going and there are a few people on this and the last page I personally want to meet in public just for the satisfaction of kicking their smug ***** and then setting fire to their sacred well worn pizza sauce stained copy of Melee and shove 4 somewhere the sun don't shine....

lol ok

1665 East 111th st. Los Angeles CA, 90059

Let's see how far talk takes you in south central.

Should be an easy fight. I'm just a fast food inhaling, meek Melee player. If only I could wavedash in real life...

 

[Deleted member 245254]

While this is true to an extent, I've seen Westballz, Fly, Amsa, PewPewU, and so many more improving greatly.
And there is a reason they're called upsets -- because they -are- rare, and they aren't expected.
Do you think it was expected that Westballz would ever beat Mango, or that Amsa would ever beat M2K, or even that Abate would beat Hax?
There's a very, very large pool of excellent players out there, and I think it might just be a little early to say we've hit the peak.

All that aside, I'm certain Smash 4 will have leagues of diversity among the top players, regardless of whether or not we find more advanced techniques.
I've seen so many arguments for an against complex gameplay that I just want the game to hurry up and come out.
Maybe people will remember that they're smart enough to overcome complex opponents and technical playstyles, or even find that they're capable of much more than they thought.
I don't think anyone's hit their peak; everyone's still learning.

We never will hit the actual technical peak as the peak would essentially be in-human levels of reaction time and coordination. Perfection. It's all about how close to it you can get.

I'm pretty sure the meta has completed its evolution at this point though. It's an old game. That's why tournament results have begun to show quite a bit of consistency (character-wise) lately in the past couple years. Mind you I'm not insinuating that it's a narrow list of characters but it certainly isn't close to all of them.

Sure, many people can play Smash well, but in the competitive scene it doesn't really matter if you can't make top 5. This is where "fun" comes in, and to suggest Smash 4 won't be fun is silly, I think. Smash 4 is or likely will be fun, therefore it will be competitive and inviting.

It is my opinion that the success and competitive potential of a game is derived from how fun it is to play against other players, not its mechanics.

 

[Gunla]

This thread has gotten out of hand.
I apologize, but this thread will be locked.