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Proof that Sakurai *is* in touch with his franchise...(New Interview w/ Sakurai)

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http://nintendoeverything.com/sakur...-smash-bros-more-interesting-than-the-others/

Personally I agree with everything said here, I can't even think of anything to add.

Here's a giant quote box for those too lazy to click.

Sakurai said:
I think the popularity of Melee rested fundamentally on the game’s speed. The dazzling exchange of skills was the game’s most exhilarating aspect and the rough edges in terms of the game’s balance went mostly unnoticed. Even though the dynamic range of the characters was limited, the game somehow made its mark, even with hardcore fans of the genre.

Melee’s controls were, however, quite complicated and very tiring if the player really got into it in a serious way. This made the game less accessible for novice players and it basically ended up becoming a Smash Bros. game for hardcore fighting fans. I personally regret that, because I originally intended the Smash Bros. series to be for players who couldn’t handle such highly skilled games.

If tournament popularity was the most important consideration, then I think we would create a Smash Bros. game that included a multitude of fast moves with complicated controls. However, I believe this is actually the greatest shortcoming of fighting games at present, and that is the reason why I don’t do it.

Games aimed at casual users, such as Wii Sports and Wii Fit, reinvigorated the market and their success lay behind Wii’s popularity, [so] we had to make sure that Brawl would also be fun for first-time players. We also had to make sure that everyone could use the controls, such as holding the Wii Remote sideways. As a result of these considerations, overall Brawl is rather tame game; this had its advantages, but it also took away some of the excitement.

While there’s a lot of enthusiasm for tournaments on the one hand, there are also users who just give up on these sorts of games because they can’t handle the complexity and speed. While other fighting games continue to work on honing this tournament aspect, I think that we need to move in a direction where there is more of a focus on inexperienced gamers. Companies that release products that target a very vocal, visible group of gamers tend to receive good reactions and they may feel good about it, but I think that we have to pay special attention to the less vocal, not so visible group of players, or else games will just fade away.

There are so many other games out there which are geared to tournaments. It is important for us, however, to maintain the game’s status as a kind of ‘rough’ party game in which anyone can play without feeling too much pressure over winning or losing. We therefore want to keep a nice balance in which a wide variety of events can occur in the game, some of them quite outrageous. With this, Smash Bros. isn’t just a fighting game, it is an opponent-based action game.

The most important thing is that the game have breadth and depth, since we would like them to be popular with both novices and hardcore gamers. We think that people who aren’t so good at turning the tables and coming back from behind can still get enjoyment out of the [new] game, even if they turn off items and Smash Balls.

Although the pace of the game had to be lowered compared to Melee in order to achieve this balance, we have managed to keep the dynamism because we didn’t have to gear towards novice players like we did with Brawl. In fact, we recreated all characters almost from scratch. Also, I feel on a personal level that this game is more interesting than the three previous games in the series.
I'm willing to believe people will still say Sakurai is out of touch, or say things like "but casuals enjoyed Melee too!" and miss the point but you really can't argue with his logic. He made the franchise, and it's his choice, his direction.

Discuss.

/flameshield
 
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JUr

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The basic concept of this game seems to be 'Balance', it's said in every interview...

Great insight from Sakurai and we are waiting to see and play with the results of the efforts of him and the dev team
 

ShrekItRalph

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Nah, Sakurai isn't only catering to what I want so he must be out of touch.

It's good to hear that Sakurai is trying to please all sides of the Smash fan base, but I guess we will have to wait and see how well he pulls it off. Personally I have faith in him.
 
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PLATINUM7

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Yeah he's the creator and its his vision, but often its the fans that turn it into what it is. Sakurai recognises that he can't just alienate one group of fans to please the others, so that's good. He's also mentioned that he believes Smash to be a party game before but often ends with saying how he believes its a game anyone can play however they want. So he's not telling people how they 'should' be playing the game.
 
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Vann Accessible

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Yeah, but does it have enough Kid Icarus representation? I think that's the real question we all should be asking here. :p
 

BridgesWithTurtles

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Sakurai said:
Melee’s controls were, however, quite complicated and very tiring if the player really got into it in a serious way. This made the game less accessible for novice players and it basically ended up becoming a Smash Bros. game for hardcore fighting fans. I personally regret that, because I originally intended the Smash Bros. series to be for players who couldn’t handle such highly skilled games.
Sakurai himself said it. Melee is a legitimate fighting game. Against his own wishes, but a fighting game nonetheless. We good guys. We good.

#when'smarvel
 

Kuraudo

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I agree with what Sakurai's said for the most part. Fighting games haven't exactly been blockbuster sellers like other huge AAA titles since it's catered to the hardcore where other more casual players could get left behind, or in this day of online gaming they play against better people and get discouraged because it just so happened one guy mastered the character to the point of 0-deathing them in a combo or something.

It's really overwhelming for someone who just wants to have fun with their favorite characters, not JUST for people who go to tournaments for glory and to make a name for themselves.

Super Smash Bros. Melee is a glorious game. ...it was an ACCIDENT of one, but it was a glorious one at that. The difference between casual players and competitive players does jump in though, but Smash has succeeded in drawing in crowds of all kinds. Brawl, however, while it sold really well, alienated people who loved the faster pace of Melee, whereas casual gamers flocked to it.

Smash for Wii U/3DS on the other hand? Is sounding like it's reaching a happy medium. Ultimately, Sakurai isn't creating this game with the intent of it being a tourney game. To be honest, he never has.

It's up to US, the competitive community, to create something out of this game and the series. And it's up to the casual scene to create all sorts of wacky, fun-time moments without feeling like they're being scrutinized for not wavedashing/l-cancelling/short-hop-lasering/etc. There IS no wrong way to play Super Smash Bros., no matter which version it is.

We did it with 64, we did it with Melee, we did it with Brawl. And with any luck? We're gonna do the same thing with Smash for Wii U/3DS.

tl;dr version?

Sakurai wants EVERYONE to play this game and to enjoy it. It's just up to us to make a competitive game out of it again. "Do whatever you want with our game."
 

Skyblade12

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Sakurai himself said it. Melee is a legitimate fighting game. Against his own wishes, but a fighting game nonetheless. We good guys. We good.

#when'smarvel
So every fighting game is, and in fact, by definition must be, a game for "hardcore fighting fans"?

No wonder the genre sucks so much.

Sakurai didn't say Melee was a "legitimate fighting game". He said it was a game that appealed primarily to the hardcore fighting audience. That is not the same thing.
 

Jigglymaster

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"If tournament popularity was the most important consideration, then I think we would create a Smash Bros. game that included a multitude of fast moves with complicated controls. However, I believe this is actually the greatest shortcoming of fighting games at present, and that is the reason why I don’t do it."

That quote alone is something to really think about. In games like Umvc3 and Street Fighter. Playing online against others is CHALLENGE, and I'm a tournament player myself and I find it hard to not get destroyed sometimes, so I think to myself "what the hell would happen if any of my friends or my family would try to play this? They'd never win online!"

That's the thing. To play those games you need to spend hours just practicing to learn how to combo and do moves. Sakurai has made it clear he wants the player to be able to preform every single move an advance player can without any sort of training. Granted a new player won't use those moves as well, but at least they have the option to use them. I've had friends training so hard to just do a SHORYUKEN and they fail to do so, and even when they do they forget to use it in game.

And what Sakurai means by these combos is things like Wave-Dashing, L-Cancelling, SHFFLing, all these advanced techs that a tournament player could use to get the upperhand on a new player. The new player would have to spend a decent amount of time learning how to do these techs let alone remember to use them correctly in battle.

In Brawl, they did some things wrong, like adding tripping, when you add random and chance to a game to nerf a tournament player, thats the wrong way to do it, instead what they're focusing on now is just keeping the controls and the character's options available to everyone from the start you don't NEED to spend 5 hours learning how to preform just as much damage as your opponent, you just do it! With the speed-up increase that Smash 4 will have, I think it will be the best smash game yet.
 

DairunCates

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I'll probably catch some flak for it, but I agree with him both on a design and business standpoint. It also doesn't shock me that this is how he feels about the series and this game. It's really shown in some of the design decisions. We discussed this in the complexity thread a bit, but I do think that a low skill floor is healthy for a fighting game and its community. It's easy to remember how exciting tournaments are, but they're not the entirety of what makes a game's community, and without the more passionate home aspect of a community, it's harder for a that community to thrive in the long run.

That said, I definitely think he's at least put some major consideration towards hardcore gamers with some of the more technical character styles we've been getting though. I don't see a lot of casual players picking up Robin unless they're huge awakening fans, but I see him/her being a very interesting character for higher end players.

Good article. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Ganreizu

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It sounds like he plans to take the execution difficulty and tone it down a bunch (compared to melee), while making the choice to actually execute in the first place more serious (compared to brawl).
 
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PCHU

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I'm glad he's trying to cater to both crowds this time.
He also noted that they recreated the characters from scratch -- I'm really curious to see what this amounts to (in a positive way).
The main thing about Brawl is that I didn't really feel like I was playing with a "decent" character half the time; a lot of the cast just felt lacking in general because moves were generally slow, not very powerful, and overall mobility suffered from the exclusion of momentum (dash jump) and crouch canceling dash; approaching and movement in general became tedious.
Smash 4, so far, looks like it took a step in the right direction, and I'm genuinely excited to play it.
Mostly excited to see if Ganondorf and Ike are improved, as I always love using them, but the game in general looks like a lot of fun.


On a side note, although it is true, I am a bit tired of hearing "It's his game, you just have to deal with it, etc etc" because it's like saying we have no room to give our own opinions.
I like hearing different perspectives because it helps to further mold my own way of thought, and having someone come in with a big "What you say doesn't matter" sign kinda sucks.
Stuff can get out of hand, I'll agree to that, but it's important to keep a relatively open mind.
 
D

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I'm glad he's trying to cater to both crowds this time.
He also noted that they recreated the characters from scratch -- I'm really curious to see what this amounts to (in a positive way).
The main thing about Brawl is that I didn't really feel like I was playing with a "decent" character half the time; a lot of the cast just felt lacking in general because moves were generally slow, not very powerful, and overall mobility suffered from the exclusion of momentum (dash jump) and crouch canceling dash; approaching and movement in general became tedious.
Smash 4, so far, looks like it took a step in the right direction, and I'm genuinely excited to play it.
Mostly excited to see if Ganondorf and Ike are improved, as I always love using them, but the game in general looks like a lot of fun.


On a side note, although it is true, I am a bit tired of hearing "It's his game, you just have to deal with it, etc etc" because it's like saying we have no room to give our own opinions.
I like hearing different perspectives because it helps to further mold my own way of thought, and having someone come in with a big "What you say doesn't matter" sign kinda sucks.
Stuff can get out of hand, I'll agree to that, but it's important to keep a relatively open mind.
I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, I'm just saying that you shouldn't forget that your opinion isn't everyone's opinion. Most importantly, your opinion isn't always Sakurai's opinion. He's the utterly successful game designer, so I tend to trust him more than random people on the internet.
 
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PCHU

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I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, I'm just saying that you shouldn't forget that your opinion isn't everyone's opinion. Most importantly, your opinion isn't always Sakurai's opinion.
Yeah, that last part is what irks me.
I mean, I already know that what I say won't influence the game in any way, but when I'm just trying to say something, I get "Well, it ain't what Sakurai thinks" in return, and it's just kinda...
Ech.
I don't mind people coinciding with Sakurai (he's a brilliant guy who's done a lot of great stuff), but when it's used as a counter to one side of a debate, there really isn't much to reply with; at that point, it's an entirely different discussion.

Like, were I to say "I think it'd be nice to have momentum back because it gives more of an incentive to dash (which is already giving up tilts due to the exclusion of crouch canceling), not to mention it feels right even in basic platforming", and having someone reply "Sakurai most likely saw that as a way to give competitive players the edge, so he took it out" without really explaining why it was a bad idea in the first place, it was just Sakurai's will.

Also, I don't feel right solely talking about debates, so I'll add this:
Greninja's looking like so much freaking fun; the speed, shadow sneak, substitute, his Pikachu-esque upB...
It's like everything I wanted from Sheik and more.
Some other people are kinda upset that it's Greninja and not Chesnaught (which also looks like it'd be a solid inclusion), but I'm glad Sakurai took a chance with Greninja.
 

DairunCates

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Also, I don't feel right solely talking about debates, so I'll add this:
Greninja's looking like so much freaking fun; the speed, shadow sneak, substitute, his Pikachu-esque upB...
It's like everything I wanted from Sheik and more.
Some other people are kinda upset that it's Greninja and not Chesnaught (which also looks like it'd be a solid inclusion), but I'm glad Sakurai took a chance with Greninja.
You know what's one of the things I find the most interesting about this whole thing? People have taken VERY different impressions of characters away. I think that speaks miles to at least the variety we're getting.

I bring this up because Greninja looks like he's fun but lacks sufficient killing power. Some of the people at the invitational think Megaman is one of the coolest and most interesting characters while several other people I've read think he's low to mid tier. There's even the fact that the abilities of Rosalina players seem to vary by such an insane degree that it's not even funny. Apparently, while Sakurai said Samus was testing to be the strongest character at the invitational, the invitational players hated her, but people that played the demo afterwards apparently like her because her landing lag is now next to nothing.

Sorry. I just find that bit very cool and interesting.
 
D

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Yeah, that last part is what irks me.
I mean, I already know that what I say won't influence the game in any way, but when I'm just trying to say something, I get "Well, it ain't what Sakurai thinks" in return, and it's just kinda...
Ech.
I don't mind people coinciding with Sakurai (he's a brilliant guy who's done a lot of great stuff), but when it's used as a counter to one side of a debate, there really isn't much to reply with; at that point, it's an entirely different discussion.

Like, were I to say "I think it'd be nice to have momentum back because it gives more of an incentive to dash (which is already giving up tilts due to the exclusion of crouch canceling), not to mention it feels right even in basic platforming", and having someone reply "Sakurai most likely saw that as a way to give competitive players the edge, so he took it out" without really explaining why it was a bad idea in the first place, it was just Sakurai's will.

Also, I don't feel right solely talking about debates, so I'll add this:
Greninja's looking like so much freaking fun; the speed, shadow sneak, substitute, his Pikachu-esque upB...
It's like everything I wanted from Sheik and more.
Some other people are kinda upset that it's Greninja and not Chesnaught (which also looks like it'd be a solid inclusion), but I'm glad Sakurai took a chance with Greninja.
It's perfectly normal to dislike something that favors a component or concept you disagree with, that's called preference.

That's just the reality of life though, you weren't born to love and praise all things. There are just some things you like, and some things you don't. If Smash 4 happens to have more things you don't like than things you do, then you can't really do anything other than chalk it up to bad chemistry in regards to what your preferences are. It might hurt and feel "Ech" but that's life, dude.

The issue I have is when faced with this reality, many folks of the immature variety see that as an opportunity to whine because they think that they should get their way. Only children do this. The fact of the matter is you will not always get it. Some people claim to accept that fact, but a true display of acceptance for that starts with not complaining in the first place.

Constructive criticism is totally fine, but in a community with so many differing viewpoints, backed by so many different people, when I see someone stroll in, talking about how this and that is how you make a proper, competitive, successful Smash game, I have to tilt my head to the side and go "R u srs?". Based on your comment, you aren't really one the people I'm targeting, in any case.
 
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Ellipsis

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I will never understand the perception that the casual audience was not satisfied with Melee. Sure, they didn't participate in high level tournaments, but that's completely unavoidable. "Most players not being skilled enough" is inherent in the very idea of high level tournaments, for all games and all possible games. It doesn't mean Melee wasn't an extremely popular game for all audiences. Why shouldn't new games build off of that success?

I'm not asking for over complicated controls. Just make it fast. There's no reason it can't be fast.


Offtopic:
"In fact, we recreated all characters almost from scratch."
Falcondorf says hi.:p
 
D

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I will never understand the perception that the casual audience was not satisfied with Melee. Sure, they didn't participate in high level tournaments, but that's completely unavoidable. "Most players not being skilled enough" is inherent in the very idea of high level tournaments, for all games and all possible games. It doesn't mean Melee wasn't an extremely popular game for all audiences. Why shouldn't new games build off of that success?

I'm not asking for over complicated controls. Just make it fast. There's no reason it can't be fast.


Offtopic:
"In fact, we recreated all characters almost from scratch."
Falcondorf says hi.:p
Let me try to explain it.

While you may have plenty of anecdotes on-hand to prove emphatically that casuals loved Melee, it actually does not change what Sakurai said from being fact. The first thing is, when Melee was current, casuals didn't really have an alternative anyway. It was the brand new Smash game, so of course they enjoyed it. Things changed over time, it wasn't a part of Melee that was immediately apparent.

There are people who see what it takes or get a reality check in a match with a tournament player, and give right the hell up on the spot. I've actually seen this happen to players (friends of mine who I brought to a tournament). Even if they will never actually see 1st place at EVO or MLG, there's a staggering effect that kind of experience can have on a new, impassioned, bright-eyed player. Some, of course, take it upon themselves to rise above it. To meet the challenge and become one of the elite. This is not the majority though, and that's what Sakurai is saying.
 

DairunCates

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I will never understand the perception that the casual audience was not satisfied with Melee. Sure, they didn't participate in high level tournaments, but that's completely unavoidable. "Most players not being skilled enough" is inherent in the very idea of high level tournaments, for all games and all possible games. It doesn't mean Melee wasn't an extremely popular game for all audiences. Why shouldn't new games build off of that success?

I'm not asking for over complicated controls. Just make it fast. There's no reason it can't be fast.
I actually can explain that a bit. Most of the people that are actively posting on this board don't actually see too many people vastly outside of their skill level. So, you're not actually used to seeing necessarily how the world at large reacts to and plays things. Basically, what you consider casual may actually be a fairly advanced player for a lot of people. That said, the ACTUAL average skill level of gamers is a decent bit lower than people think it is, because the kind of people that will discuss this are usually above that curve. Once you see how much of your ability to play games is based on assumptions you've learned over the years, your perspective tends to change drastically on this (If you ever have to playtest a game with a random sample of people, you'll see exactly what I mean).

Anyway, point is. Melee's gravity and general speed were actually really hard for a lot of people to adjust to, but if it's in the sweet spot for you, it's kinda hard to see how that could be the case. It's a subtle thing, but it was enough to actually turn a lot of casual players off the game after they unlocked every character. Not all of them obviously, but there were definitely some.

Edit:
Let me try to explain it.

While you may have plenty of anecdotes on-hand to prove emphatically that casuals loved Melee, it actually does not change what Sakurai said from being fact. The first thing is, when Melee was current, casuals didn't really have an alternative anyway. It was the brand new Smash game, so of course they enjoyed it. Things changed over time, it wasn't a part of Melee that was immediately apparent.

There are people who see what it takes or get a reality check in a match with a tournament player, and give right the hell up on the spot. I've actually seen this happen to players (friends of mine who I brought to a tournament). Even if they will never actually see 1st place at EVO or MLG, there's a staggering effect that kind of experience can have on a new, impassioned, bright-eyed player. Some, of course, take it upon themselves to rise above it. To meet the challenge and become one of the elite. This is not the majority though, and that's what Sakurai is saying.
There's this as well. Freaky how the openings synced up like that.
 
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micstar615

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I'm loving what I'm reading, very excited for this next installment to the series :) hopefully it'll be a good middle ground of casual and competitive.
 

Renji64

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So he dumbed down the game and now thinks this game will please the hardcore group as well? I don't see it,This game is a extention of the last entry which he made only for new players. This interview only proves he cares about the casual consumer.
 

StarLight42

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I don't really know what to think of this.

On one side, i'm feeling this confirms that Smash 4 will be a sluggish non competitive game like Brawl and will be a competitive failure, which is extremely disappointing.

On another side, i'm feeling/hoping that Smash 4 has found the perfect balance of competitive and casual.

Also Sakurai, you don't change Mario's final smash, I don't turn on Smash balls, thank you very much.


If the former is right, at least Miyamoto is focusing on the hardcore crowd now.
 
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BBG|Scott-Spain

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Not bad. I can respect that. The question now is how much of that "dynamism" is coming back to the series for the hardcore player?
 

Big-Cat

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That quote alone is something to really think about. In games like Umvc3 and Street Fighter. Playing online against others is CHALLENGE, and I'm a tournament player myself and I find it hard to not get destroyed sometimes, so I think to myself "what the hell would happen if any of my friends or my family would try to play this? They'd never win online!"
Marvel is more guilty of this than Street Fighter really.

Learning to do things like a Shoryuken is part of the process, but they don't take long to really learn if you don't go rushing in all the time. Street Fighter's technical difficulty lies in the notorious links. However, your prowess is better determined with fundamentals.

To those that say Sakurai is bending over for casuals, Shulk and Rosalina say hi.
 

The Real Gamer

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More indication that this game will most likely end up as more of a "refined Brawl" than a true middle ground between Melee/Brawl.

The competitive Melee player in me is a bit upset with this, but the Nintendo fan boy in me has a hard time caring anymore. As long as the competitive scene for this game is able to thrive, I'll be happy regardless of how it plays.

No matter what I'm going to enjoy the **** out of Smash 4 for sure. :)
 
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Renji64

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Marvel is more guilty of this than Street Fighter really.

Learning to do things like a Shoryuken is part of the process, but they don't take long to really learn if you don't go rushing in all the time. Street Fighter's technical difficulty lies in the notorious links. However, your prowess is better determined with fundamentals.

To those that say Sakurai is bending over for casuals, Shulk and Rosalina say hi.
What do characters have to do with gameplay?

More indication that this game will most likely end up as more of a "refined Brawl" than a true middle ground between Melee/Brawl.

The competitive Melee player in me is a bit upset with this, but the Nintendo fan boy in me has a hard time caring anymore. As long as the competitive scene for this game is able to thrive, I'll be happy regardless of how it plays.

No matter what I'm going to enjoy the **** out of Smash 4 for sure. :)
But it's not brawl 2.0 herp derp it is own thing.
 
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TeaTwoTime

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I'm happy with every single word in that interview. I have every reason to believe that this will be exactly the Smash game I've been wanting for years. :grin:
 

ParanoidDrone

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That doesn't do much for the hardcore player who likes full control of their characters. Yeah new playstyles is great and all.
But historically, puppet fighters and stance characters tend to have high skill floors, therefore their inclusion means Sakurai is not opposed to including characters that require a relatively high degree of skill to use effectively.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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So he dumbed down the game and now thinks this game will please the hardcore group as well? I don't see it,This game is a extention of the last entry which he made only for new players. This interview only proves he cares about the casual consumer.
I get the feeling you didn't really try to interpret what he said or are nitpicking the article really badly.
 

Renji64

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I get the feeling you didn't really try to interpret what he said or are nitpicking the article really badly.
I'm not nitpicking it is what it is. He pretty much said i dumbed down smash brothers for casuals i hope you find a way to enjoy if you like melee as well.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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RedRyu_Smash
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0344-9312-3352
I'm not nitpicking it is what it is. He pretty much said i dumbed down smash brothers for casuals i hope you find a way to enjoy if you like melee as well.
He made the game less hard overall, then speed it up and removed bad things that were in both.

Then he added new characters that are very diverse in gameplay and made modes just for competitive.

If anything he's actually trying to make it better for both than just one or the other.
 

Renji64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
1,988
Location
Jacksonville FL
He made the game less hard overall, then speed it up and removed bad things that were in both.

Then he added new characters that are very diverse in gameplay and made modes just for competitive.

If anything he's actually trying to make it better for both than just one or the other.
People who enjoy melee's gameplay just get a slower less skilled game. The roster is very diverse but there won't be much for the hardcore user besides some fd mode.
 

Big-Cat

Challenge accepted.
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
16,176
Location
Lousiana
NNID
KumaOso
3DS FC
1590-4853-0104
That doesn't do much for the hardcore player who likes full control of their characters. Yeah new playstyles is great and all.
Full control isn't always a good thing.
 

INs4niTY-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
233
Location
London
NNID
Marouf
"While other fighting games continue to work on honing this tournament aspect, I think that we need to move in a direction where there is more of a focus on inexperienced gamers." That's the worrying part of the interview for me. The smash bros series will always be a game that anyone can jump straight into but if he's focusing more on the inexperienced gamers the hard core gamers may be alienated. I know he's trying to make a middle ground but it's quite clear he has a soft spot for the casuals lol.
 
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