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Of course I'm talking about his statement; it's not like I've played it.
My point is that he's made it very clear that he's taking steps to cater to all Smash fans and it is thus far observable in what we've seen of the game.This is just a casual example of what goes on all day on this forum from vocal "Melee preferenced" players. Direct contradiction.
Good lord. I certainly know that you are out of touch with Smash 4. Why don't we stop spreading falsehoods, ok?
I know i left a like but dayum man your like the shokio of forums every time i read you replying especially that last part i always get a chuckle.
Oh in that case yes, its obvious what he is stating. Even tho you can have your doubts about trying to include competitive players or maybe he really "tried" but he didnt get it that right. But yes, its kinda obvious he is trying to express how "much work" he is putting into trying to bring both audiences even tho it isnt that clear game wise, at least for me.Of course I'm talking about his statement; it's not like I've played it.
Yupp thats what i mean, in theory he IS IN FACT appealing to both publics even tho we know those changes are basic requirments for competitive players but for him is a hue leap compared to what was in Brawl
. But yeah i really really hope he did reduce the landing lag, that there are new techniques ( besides teh pivot change) , etc.
Problem is, prospective competitive players are locked out of Melee, now and forever, if they don't feel able to surmount tech skill barriers. That's not at all the case with Brawl [though it drives people away because they don't understand the depth required to play it, whereas in Melee people assume it's because they're not technical, not that they're bad at the mental side too, so they go practice a bunch and like the game even though they suck, then they actually get better]. Melee ruined casual player fun if they ever played anyone remotely technical - at various casual circles, I know several players who prefer Brawl because in FFAs [the normal choice for casuals], they aren't destroyed by one technical player.
What is this about a pivot change? Or do you just mean the pivot-cancel stuff and run-stop-cancel stuff that we've seen no evidence of the removal of?
That's because back in the Gamecube era Melee was considered a highly accessible, straightforward game for a good period of time. Resulted in a lot of rude awakenings as years past and people slowly discovered how deep, complex, and difficult it can be to play at a high level. Naturally not everyone was happy the game was evolving, but their beef was almost never with Melee's core gamplay.
It's funny how you talk from a position of authority in this matter, tell me Zipzo what exactly give you the right to judge people understand for smash 4? I am free to disagree with Sakurai view on how to make Smash a better game as our views on what make Smash 'fun' isn't the same. I'm free to also point out how Sakurai has always put down the competitive scene and to not forgive him. I'll still my dislike for Sakurai if you want and listen to reason, tell me what falsehoods am I spreading?
You can't criticize Zipzo for stating his opinion (and accusing him of talking from a position of authority -- what?) if you don't want him to criticize yours. You're free to point out what you dislike about Sakurai and he's able to point out what he doesn't like about your dislike.
You think to have understood the Sakurai 's statement but you have not.
In other words, don't go dumping your half slapped together opinion if you KNOW its going to attract hate and well deserved calling outs of said opinion unless you are mature enough to express the type of opinion that's generally accepted as stated above.
Great post. I kept thinking it would end but it kept on going and extending and building like an amazing story. Also thanks for pointing out the footage and saying it looks like it has been sped up; gonna take a look at it right now and see if I notice anything cool that's changed since the last build!wow...I come back to check and see how this thread is going and there are a few people on this and the last page I personally want to meet in public just for the satisfaction of kicking their smug ***** and then setting fire to their sacred well worn pizza sauce stained copy of Melee and shove 4 somewhere the sun don't shine....
However, regardless of how satisfyingly evil it would possibly be, I'm above such primitive acts of cruelty, so instead, I will speak in my full capacity as a guy who grew up with Melee and adored it back in the day and played Brawl back when it was more or less my only internet gaming option. I should go ahead and warn some of the more negative nancy's up in here, I don't play nice when you irk me or anyone else for that metter by talking ill about something like smash 4 acting like you know Sakurai on a personal level or how 4 will do in the competitive scene when it's clear you are better off flipping burgers at BK, getting a boyfriend/girlfriend, visiting a popular tourist location on vacation, etc than riling up the same people over and over on virtually EVERY discussion we have about 4 and it's future in the smash community!
Melee was the first game in the Smash Bros series I ever played and have proudly owned my copy of it for 9 years now. I recall being surprised at some of the characters that were in the game such as Ganondorf (hey it is not everyday you get to play as a villain and beat up the good guy after all!) and I remember pouring lots of hours into the various modes when I was young. Fast forward a few months later, the E3 2006 trailer for Brawl was shown and imagine my level of hype I had. When you are 10 years old, lots of things still seem magical and I eagerly followed the Dojo when it officially became a thing in summer of 2007 always being punctual with checking out the update for each weekday. In the meantime, I continued to play more of Melee and eventually started having no items stock battles and saw improvements in my overall skill level. While I couldn't consistently wavedash, L cancel, SHFFL, or do any of the crazy stuff top Melee players can do, I still enjoyed Melee and it became my go to game whenever I got home from school and had checked the Brawl Dojo update for the day. When I got a copy along with my Wii for Christmas 2008, I spent the next few weeks eating sleeping and breathing Brawl. However, I eventually noticed a few things that marred my appreciation for the game such as random tripping, acting out of hitstun, MetaKnight being too ****ing powerful compared to everybody else, etc. While Brawl does have its merits, I refuse to accept that Brawl was "competitive" and what I mean by that was a worthy competitive sequel to Melee for yes, Brawl does or rather did have a competitive scene once upon a time, but never on the level of competitive Melee because of its aforementioned flaws that hold it down like a heavy anchor
Eventually, I stuck to Melee as my "competitive" fighter of choice while Brawl if anything became the game I would occasionally pull out and play online with until I got my PS3 in 2010 which had MUCH better online than the sorry excuse Brawl unfortunately had. Fast forward to 2013 when 4 was officially announced and tripping was among some of the first things to be confirmed NOT in the game. I felt like quite a few amiable citizens here on SmashBoards, I thought "FINALLY, a new entry in the smash bros series I can enjoy as both a casual game, but more importantly, a great competitive sequel to one of my favorite competitive games of all time" In other words, I relished 4's announcement and looked forward to it being the game that would finally give Melee its much deserved retirement.
Fast forward to where we all are now and I see two things. Either people who feel passionate about 4 is shaping up to be like I am and can't WAIT till the 3DS version is out and playable everywhere (a portable smash bros is also another dream come true for many of us smash fans), or a few idiotic posters in these parts who act like Sakurai is the devil to competitive play and actively ignore all the good he has done to make 4 appeal to us hardcore fans. For starters, basing your groundless assumptions about an unreleased game based off of a very outdated build for the demoes we have had for both versions of the game and stating your grossly misguided opinions as FACT is not cool and makes you look like the kind of people us true smash fans strive NOT to be and also makes the community look to outsiders like whiny little ****s who probably wouldn't be even satisfied with a straight up copy and paste Melee sequel even if it had all the glitches/bugs/Mewtwo's intact all because of one little "error" that somehow makes the whole product look like garbage.
Therefore, I feel it crucial to spell this out one more time and this of course shall be the last time I say it and will even put in big colorful font so you can't say you didn't see it...
THERE IS NEVER EVER GOING TO BE A MELEE 2.0. MELEE WAS COINCIDENTALLY A HAPPY ACCIDENT THE SAME WAY COMBOES WERE AN OVERSIGHT IN STREET FIGHTER 2. THE DIFFERENCE IS HOWEVER THAT SMASH BROS. WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE A COMPLICATED BUTTON MASHER AS WHILE GAMES LIKE STREET FIGHTER, TEKKEN, MARVEL VS CAPCOM, ETC DO HAVE THEIR OWN APPEAL, THE ENTRY BAR FOR SAID GAMES IS MOSTLY A HIGH ONE IF YOU AIM TO ONE DAY BE AS GOOD AS THE GUYS YOU SEE AT EVO OR MLG AND YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO TRY OVER AND OVER YET FAIL AT GETTING ANYWHERE NEAR GOOD ENOUGH TO START KICKING *** IN ONLINE OR EVEN AT A LOCAL COMPETITION IN YOUR AREA.
Sakurai himself has even said in the interview @Zipzo posted that complicated controls were tiring if the player tried to played competitively and IIRC, Mew2King has complained about hand problems from playing Melee competitively so much over the years. What fun is that? Sakurai has also said complicated controls are what he feels to be the biggest shortcoming of most fighting games today and that couldn't be closer to the truth as again, the aforementioned fighting games require a high level entry if you want to be so much as good enough to compete against other players both online as well as in real life. While I will admit Sakurai dropped the competitive ball with Brawl, I will say for newcomers, Brawl wasn't too demanding to get into and with Project Melee becoming all the buzz over the last year, Brawl serves as a gateway of sorts for new players into competitive smash bros should they feel like they are good enough to compete against other players. New blood is never a bad thing. It is a proven fact that many notable Brawl players have since moved on to either Melee or Project M and some even making a name for themselves in one or both.
From all accounts, 4 is said to be faster than Brawl with all the scrappy mechanics from said game being cut, yet not lightning OMG WHY CAN'T I DO THIS STUPID TECH fast like Melee was which is believe it or not a good thing and there is lots of proof from several notable members in our community who've had very sufficient time with the demoes we have had all summer who can attest to this claim as well as fully back it up. There is nothing wrong with extending a helping hand to new players who would otherwise suck at a fighting game so long as you do it right i.e NOT giving your hardcore fanbase the finger like Brawl did. Smash 4 is shaping up to succeed on both fronts and as a fighting game community that has had to fight tooth and nail in the past to even get the recognition we did get at EVO 2013, that is the best we can ask/hope for. New blood and more importantly, a new game that's not too hard for casuals to even attempt to get into and from there get good at, but also a game that doesn't **** in your competitive cereal and provides enough depth to keep us coming back for more year after year until the probable Smash bros 5 is announced in a almost a decades time when Nintendo launches their ninth generation console.
Whether you anti smash 4 cretins want 4 or not, its looking to make a permanent home in the smash bros community the same way Brawl did. Unlike Brawl however, 4 has more things going for it instead of against it. Say what you wish about Sakurai all you want but when he along with some help from NAMCO BANDAI (of tekken and soul caliber fame) has in no particular order:
1. Gotten rid of all scrappy mechanics that people despised in Brawl and speed up the overall flow of the game enough to distinguish it from Brawl, but not too fast like Melee which these days is a common complaint people have with Melee when held up under the anti nostalgia lenses.
2. Worked towards making a much much more balanced roster so that a lot more characters than usual are viable in competitive play. (Melee has about half the cast viable at best (13 of the 26 character roster)), (Brawl has on average only a few you only ever see besides the tier induced scrappy Meta Knight (which is honestly sad since the game boasts near 40+ characters, yet not even an exact tenth of the roster is usually on average ever used in competitive play for that game)
3. Added custom moves to spice up gameplay as a whole which should open up a breadth of metagames for each and every character
4. From the looks of it has actually seemingly listened to smash fans regarding issues people had with the outdated E3 build as gameplay footage of the 3DS version from today's Japanese direct looks a lot faster than the laggy build we experienced at E3/Best Buy. i.e Luigi's Bair doesn't take as long to start up and Link can quickly transition from one move to another as seen during the Multi Man smash bit seen in the video below. This will obviously need more time before a proper throughout conclusion can be reached, but signs point to positive already.
You can't really complain about how Sakurai supposedly hasn't listened to us period when the exact opposite is looking more and more convincing the closer we inch towards a new era of Smash Bros. Sure you can complain about trivial things like the menus not being to your tastes or your favorite character not being playable, but as for overall gameplay and competitive viability, a wise person once said...
NO JOHNS
Seriously though, Sakurai has even said in the interview that he (and i'm paraphrasing here) that while Brawl had its advantages as a tamer game compared to Melee, it took away most of the excitement Melee had generated with thousands of fans with its competitive edge! In other words, SAKURAI HAS APOLOGIZED FOR BRAWL AND MORE OR LESS REGRETS THE DESIGN CHOICES HE MADE WITH THAT GAME! Supporting this is when he talks about being able to keep the dynamism when lowering the pace of the game from Melee, but keeping it far above Brawl's slow pace. A wise design choice coming from the man who not too long ago deliberately made said game appeal to the audience it did as sort of a take that to the competitive crowd who enjoyed the exciting challenging fun of serious Melee minus the items and wacky stages.
As I said before, there is nothing wrong whatsoever with extending an olive branch towards new players with no prior experience in fighting games so long as one doesn't leave the competitive audience to starve. This was the case with Brawl, but thankfully is NOT the case with 4 as again, Sakurai has openly admitted Brawl had its share of problems that lowered its long term value and from what's been shown and said, the man has clearly made an effort and a very strong commendable one at that to not repeat just the mistakes of Brawl, but also ensure Melee's own mistakes aren't repeated either while also taking the best aspects of both games and making a product that has the strengths of both, yet none of the two games weaknesses.
Now then, I feel I should publicly address the anti smash 4 gang I've been seeing on and off on these forums all summer long as I wrap this long winded post of mine up. Despite how anti-competitive Brawl turned out to be, a sub community if you will developed around the game and quite a few intelligent users with a love for the game dug deep into the game pulling it apart seeing what could be done with its mechanics. Ironically, a competitive base birthed from the discoveries of the Brawl Back Room and the rest is history though once Project Melee dropped, Brawl was quickly abandoned in favor of the mod which did everything Brawl should have done in the eyes of many Melee and even some Brawl fans.
I won't get into the MELEE VS BRAWL debates/arguments as A. they are old and B. this ain't the place to do it as one too many smash 4 threads have quickly been derailed by this tired argument. Long story short, some (but not all) Melee fans gave Brawl fans a severely hard time for their choice in smash bros game. Despite adversity, the Brawl crowd persevered and carved a spot of their own in the smash community regardless of nasty words and hissing boos from the anti Brawl crowd. This is certainly no easy feat when it seems everything and everyone is against you and the Brawl community deserves every ounce respect for their endeavors.
To the anti 4 crowd, what I am trying to say is that we who feel passionate about 4 are here to stay. Nothing negative that comes out of your mouths will deter us from carving our own niche in the community and I advise finding better things to do with your time than go out of your way to insult, trash talk, or flame us every thread that pops up dealing with 4's competitive viability or Sakurai talking about his views on finding a sweet spot between casual and competitive or rather, newcomer and experienced as the former two words are worn out and unfortunately caused drama these days as a derogatory label more than they adequately describe one's skill level with smash bros.
If that's not clear enough, you negative nancy's who are ALWAYS talking ill about 4 and not even in a constructive way if that have one of two options.
1. Give 4 a genuine shot and spend time playing one if not both versions and draw your own conclusions. You STILL don't like what you see/play. Good riddance, but at least then you can't say you didn't give the game a fair shot though I would advise being actually constructive with your opinions and respectful of others too if you intend to stick around these parts of the forums and continue to express a negative view afterwards.
2. If absolutely NOTHING AT ALL changes your mind and you still have the audacity to go around talking nasty **** about the game like a low level brain cell deficient troll and instigate flame wars every chance you get with your unnecessary rubbish opinions, know that you will NOT be tolerated from here on out as we near closer to the release dates of both versions of the game, but more specifically the 3DS version which is where quite a bit of the meta I feel will be discovered/worked on in the early stages of 4's lifespan
Too long; Didn't read!
You anti smash 4 gangsters can continue to (ignorantly for the most part) bash on Sakurai all you wish as he's too busy eating, sleeping, and breathing 4 to give two ****s, but when you personally make derogatory comments towards a community who enjoys what 4 will offer us when it launches soon and refuse to listen to what we have to say to counter your illogical ad hominem posts regarding certain aspects of the game, that's when you cross the line of no return and trust me, it is a line you wish you didn't cross. The Brawl community took no crap from the persistent anti Brawl idiots back in the day as they struggled to build their own place in the overall smash community and though it's not the majestic place it once was, it still continues to thrive in its own fashion ala the smash 64 community which is small and tight nit sure, but are admired all the same for their continued devotion to a game that's not as popular with most people as Melee still mostly is.
We smash 4 obsessed fans likewise will not tolerate any crap from those who would unjustifiably knock 4 down a few pegs all because it's not Melee 2.0 (the closest we shall EVER get to that is Project M so take that or leave it, your choice!) or its somehow a polished rehash of Brawl (Hint it certainly is not that either!)
Before you randomly post with your two cents that is likely unproductive towards good conversation anyway, read up on all that's known about 4 thus far and not just the characters, stages, new stuff, etc. Read up on how much more fluid the game is compared to Brawl. Watch GameExplain videos and learn terminology you may not have already knew and while you are at it, pay careful attention to the recent gameplay vids we have.
Pay attention to the inevitable gameplay vids we shall soon receive as Japan nears the release of the 3DS version of 4. Especially pay attention to the gameplay vids we shall eventually get for the Wii U version as it (hopefully) won't be far off after the American/European launch of the game happens. Strong analytic eyes will be needed to know for certain what's changed since the vastly outdated E3 build and more importantly, who will do well in smash 4's advanced metagame and who won't (though at least the roster this time will be a lot more adequately balanced and MetaKnight like OP characters shouldn't be a problem this time)
Most importantly, actually play the game and take as much time as need to form a constructive well written opinion piece for again, those with nastily negative attitudes towards the game who do nothing but cause trouble for this section of the forums time and again will swiftly be dealt with. Remember, you ARE entitled to your opinion at the end of the day, BUT something most people seem to ignore about this is that opinions are only allowed be they constructive well rounded ones for opinions that fail to meet this criteria are and shall be quickly discarded in file 13 never to be seen again. Sorry not sorry!
Give us a reason to report you to the moderators who run the smash 4 forums. I triple dog dare you! We will gladly report you to high heaven until you've been sufficiently infracted to where you can't do a thing to try and crush our enthusiastic spirits. In closing, we should be united together not only as a sub community dedicated to smash 4, but as a whole community too for the game is looking very positively to be the best of both Melee and Brawl and even possibly a few likeable elements from 64 sprinkled on for good measure. However, there shall be huge bumps in the road the first few months we have the game in our hands as we struggle to find our footing in the competitive metagame and test out custom moves legality.
There shall be persistent trolls, jerks, flamers, etc who will undoubtedly try to knock down our wall as we are going through the painful, but necessary process of dealing with growing pains, but they should be the least of our problems so long as we make sure to report them enough. Finally, I feel I should address one last thing. There will sadly be those who will still cling to Melee, Project M, or even Brawl even after 4's been out for awhile. There isn't much that can be done to counter this, but why should we expect everyone to flock to 4 and build a permanent nest there in the first place? All that matters in the end is that we purge the body that is smash 4's community of any viruses (negative nancy, trolls, anti smash 4 peeps who are total jerks about it, etc) and continue to strengthen and build our reserves of white cells! (people who are hyped for smash 4 and feel optimistic about its future.) A chain is after all only strong as its weakest link!
*drops mic*
Remember this interview from a year ago?
Had the lines of communication been established sooner, perhaps this simple point you bring up could have made an impact. I'm actually a bit surprised this is Sakuari's current line of thinking after receiving feedback from the Melee inclined E3 invitational members. Most of their opinions differ quite a bit from Sakuari's reflection here on what makes Melee enjoyable.
I feel like these are misinterpretations of what Sakurai is aiming at. You seem to accuse him of getting stuck in a false dichotomy of 'casual vs. hardcore' while still being trapped in one yourself. You also seem to, because Sakurai makes so many comments about the balance of Melee and why he won't go for it again, think he's out to spite you. Brawl apparently burned people so bad on that front that they're taking that cynicism to annoyingly strong lengths when judging 4. Had Brawl been just weak rather than the blatant things like tripping and poor balance, I very much doubt many of you would be going through what he said with a fine tooth comb and basically accusing him of being some blatant demon out to spite you every time something poorly translated or anything that could be vaguely be taken as insulting is said (looks back to the 'maniac' issue, and how virtually everyone who felt Sakurai hates the hardcore took it as a personal insult and missed the context).
In fairness, Japanese doesn't translate well to English. That may simply have been the best available translation of what he said.
Tristan_win
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JV5Chris
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Rhubarbo
Renji64
@Johnknight1 @StarLight42 @
metaXzero
I love Project M very much (more than the other Smash games), but a world where Sakurai's "experiment" didn't happen is a world where Brawl would have a better chance of being accepted instead of dividing the community. A world where people are less likely to get frustrated by the final results of high level Brawl play due to them not being so...controversial. Also, Project M and all the other mods were greatly aided by the Wii (and Brawl in particular which no matter what Nintendo does, they can't patch out the Custom stages exploit) being so easily moddable that today, anyone can just put some files on their SD card and have PM running. The whole thing was lightning in a bottle. Sakurai could make Smash 4 just as divisive and discouraging of competitive play as Brawl, but I doubt another modding community or PM will surface.
Tagxy
Smash has an inherent broad appeal that goes beyond whether or not the game is fast or you can wavedash. As long as we have the same simple controls we've had since 64 and 2-4 player rumbles with our favorite Nintendo characters and items, Smash will always have its broad appeal. Even with a dumb mechanic like L-canceling (I like what it does for the game, but I believe landing lag should just be lower overall than have to press L everytime). It really doesn't matter.
There's nothing wrong with burying archaic game design mechanics that shut out new players to the genre in favor of more inviting, innovative mechanics that possess enough depth for hardcore players to take advantage, and are still accessible to the newbies.I love Project M very much (more than the other Smash games), but a world where Sakurai's "experiment" didn't happen is a world where Brawl would have a better chance of being accepted instead of dividing the community. A world where people are less likely to get frustrated by the final results of high level Brawl play due to them not being so...controversial. Also, Project M and all the other mods were greatly aided by the Wii (and Brawl in particular which no matter what Nintendo does, they can't patch out the Custom stages exploit) being so easily moddable that today, anyone can just put some files on their SD card and have PM running. The whole thing was lightning in a bottle. Sakurai could make Smash 4 just as divisive and discouraging of competitive play as Brawl, but I doubt another modding community or PM will surface.
Again, I see a bunch of posts talking about how Sakurai is clearly trying to appease both Brawl fans and Melee fans who didn't enjoy Brawl. But what exactly are you seeing besides a slight increase in speed? All I see is edgehogging getting removed and most Melee mechanics staying buried. All I see are throws sending characters too far to get anything off of them whether it be combos, tech chases, or even just better position, yet not far enough to be decent kill moves unless you're Mario or Bowser. If the game is clearly trying to be for everyone instead of folks who liked Brawl, can someone show a demonstration in video footage?
@
And I don't know what I misunderstood about Brawl. I've watched some vids in the last year and it looks the same as always. Is there skill involved? Yes. Is there some complexity? Yes. Is it the same overly defensive and campy game it's been slammed for all these years? Yes.
L-canceling I'll give you (should just be have low landing lag by default), but how was anything else archaic? What inviting and innovative mechanics are you seeing? Cause all I see is the LACK of new or old mechanics making the game more inviting. Not that Smash needs to be more inviting. It's 2 attack buttons, jump, and shield/dodge. It's Nintendo all-stars with up to 4 players. And no matter what happens, the vast majority will either remain ignorant of the competitive scene or will be put off by even stuff like no items, the "clearly broken character" being allowed, or people being "cheap".
Everyone isn't going to like the thing you like. You said its about the player and their attitude. Every player is going to be different and want different things. And that's not a bad thing.
Get real cuz Project M is the best Smash ever. Lol jkjk
While I respect you being passionate about your opinion, you need to tone down on the insults, like all of them.
Well, there comes a point where people want to speak their mind about something.
This article interview is from 2010 and guess what? it oddly syncs itself up with this latest interview in terms of opinions huh?
What? I just don't think Sakuari fully understands what it is about Melee as a game that has kept interest high for all these years. The higher speed and displays of skill add to the appeal, but there are more fundamental reasons why Melee continues to enjoy a dedicated fanbase.
