Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[humble]

His camping game is one of the best. It easily leads to stage control when adding in C4 and Landmine. He can duck under a bunch of projectiles, grenade shielding, grenade stripping, cooking them, various ways to throw them, ect.

Nair is good for coming down from up high. It will end right before he hits the ground, projecting him the whole way. And there are ways to use his aerials without landing lag.

Missle > Din's Fire. Less predicable, more movement, more control over all, can be used for edgeguarding decently, ect.

I think you need to look into how good Snakes play more.

Why is his camping game one of the best? His grenades are on a timer, when he pulls one out you start counting; everytime, it explodes predictably at the same time. That means that you are capable of spot dodging/air dodging/ just moving away from them every single time. If he cooks it, it doesn't change the time left, and he can't do anything but hope you can't count to 3.

C4 is predictable as well. How many frames does it take snake to actually explode it? Enough that you can see him try and dodge it. For the landmine, if you have projectiles like ICs iceblocks or Pit's arrows, you can explode it safely. Keep aware of its location and you should be fine.

Nair from high means the whole way you are throwing out an attack hoping they run into it or are scared and run away. If you get under Snake then you can just juggle him with ease, or just come from the other side of him as well.

I didn't mention his missile at all- I said his grenade was more predictable then Din's fire because it is on a timer.

 

[volume]

i know this has nothing to do with umm snake or whatever, but i think people underate link in this game =/, he has a bit of match ups, he has a good match up on the ground but by the edge is kinda dangerous, yea he has horrid recovery but so does falco and wolf, fox, dk, (dk has bad verticle recovery but insane horizontil) lolimar can easily be edge gaurded so can zss lucarios as well, links on ground game is better then most characters and he has good spacing, racks up damage fast, has 3 projectiles which each can be used effectivly, his sheild acts as a projectile sheild on its own he has so much advantages (to me) and can at most make C tier =/. also even though i hate him, sonic can move to to like B tier he has good recovery but a hard time killing he's the fastest character in the game he has great mind games and can actually combo like alot of the low tier characters. i like where diddy is on the current list i would like if he was 4th and that wario went down to right above DDD. there are'nt very much changes needed for the current tier list because i can actually agree with it and not say this is stupid (too much)

 

[Tien2500]

Volume- ZSS is not easy to gimp. Link is not better on the ground because his attacks are very slow and his grab is super laggy. He doesn't have any particularly good moves to space with. His projectiles are OK but not great. Sonic has very low range and priority on most of his attacks. He relies on confusing you with a lot of mediocre approaches but has none that are particularly reliable.

 

[volume]

yes... but zss still has a hard time against edge guarders due to her height and weight. link does have kind of slow ground moves but not all, his up tilt is fast, his neuteral attack comes out pretty fast and he has four spacing moves 2 which are decent his Bair and Zair bombs and boomerang. alot of tether grabing characters have extremely long lag to there grab if missed. yes his projectiles are not the best but there a tad bit better then the short amount of characters that have one (falco snake and pit having the best). his dash speed isnt horrid its decent for a heavy character. and yes i agree on the sonic part he does have low priority and range but is somewhat unpredictable when fighting a good sonic

 

[Alphicans]

If I get snake to use c4 then I did my job properly. If snake has to do it twice then I am doing really well. Just because he recovers doesn't mean he got back safely.

 

[Tien2500]

ZSS really doesn't have trouble against edgeguarding at all. She has a great second jimp, a versatile recovery (her down B travels in a pretty useful pattern, and has invulnerability frames) and she doesn't go into freefall after using her tether like Oli or Ivy. Plus she can bounce off heads with her Down B even against someone who is on the edge.

Link's Up A isn't that fast compared to other tilts and has a fair amount of lag. Zair is useful as are his projectiles but that isn't enough to prevent him from being awful.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Pit . . . this character is mad good. I think people have yet to understand just how amazing Pit is. This character has a great projectile, solid approaches, great recovery, decent weight, and is just good all around. Despite not having amazing kill power, Pit's kill moves are really good, and can rack up damage like a beast. In fact, I'd say the only reason this character isn't B-Tier, is because he suffers a lot versus the high tier character. MK, GnW, Snake, Marth, and Falco all give Pit a lot of problems, and he doesn't exactly dominate the characters below him. In my personal opinion, Pit is potentially the best character in C-Tier, and is extremely underdeveloped. Once again in my opinion, I think my brother is THE BEST PIT, and Pit's meta-game is STUPIDLY UNDERDEVELOPED. I've seen mad stuff that Pit can do that really makes me wonder why he's so much less popular at the game's development. It's probably just because MK and Snake are so unfair to him.

I agree with Pit being underrated and underdeveloped. The current #1 in NE PR mains Pit. And if you think Pit does badly against Snake you need to talk to him. Last time he played Bizkit in a tourney match he 3-0 him in the grand finals, with 2 2stocks.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

lolPit.

The person talking about the grenade explosions: Grenades still do damage when they hit you, even if they don't explode. Then they explode.

 

[V]

There you go again, another scenario with multiple outs. Snake can either go for the stage, or go for the ledge. By recovering on high, you cannot cover all of these options. By going for the stage, you need to try to predict his landing path which could either be far out from the ledge or closer to it. He can mix it up with b-reversals to change his landing site. You take the aerial approach, he just air dodges past you. Or, if you decide to go far ahead of him, the ledge is always there. And if you guard the ledge, he has more methods of mixing it up.

Predictability is not as easy as many people make it out to be and the whole notion of predictable anything being a fault becomes less and less the higher in skill you go.

Sure, Snake can go for the ledge, but Marth is amazing at ledge traps too. If Marth spaces correctly to avoid the get up attack, then what can snake do? Ledge jump/hop into nair/dair? Ledge jump into Cypher? I can't imagine snake having good options against Marth while on the ledge, so retreating to the ledge is hardly a good option.

Marth's aerial mobility and running speed > Snake's aerial mobility. Whether he uses B reversals or whatever, it will be more likely that Marth can chase him down on the ground or in the air. Ok, he can airdodge, which is where SHFF uairs come into play because they auto cancel. If he doesn't AD, then he gets hit. If he does, then Marth can punish his landing with a grab or Dancing Blade, since it ***** spot dodges. Snake has no viable form of recovery against Marth. I've even pulled of Uairs against Snake while he was holding a grenade if you space it right. Nikita takes forever and you can just move to the opposite side of where he dropped it and uair since it has lag after he drops it. His best option is definitely C4, and if you jump up to bait it early while Snake is still fairly high, you can FF back to the ground and wait for his landing and punish it with the options mentioned earlier.

Now, this is just Marth we're talking about, and who knows if any other characters can exploit these weaknesses like he can, but I can see Snake falling to #3 and Diddy Kong taking #2. Maybe not on tier v 4.0, but possibly v 5.0

Only time will tell.

 

[volume]

ZSS really doesn't have trouble against edgeguarding at all. She has a great second jimp, a versatile recovery (her down B travels in a pretty useful pattern, and has invulnerability frames) and she doesn't go into freefall after using her tether like Oli or Ivy. Plus she can bounce off heads with her Down B even against someone who is on the edge.

Link's Up A isn't that fast compared to other tilts and has a fair amount of lag. Zair is useful as are his projectiles but that isn't enough to prevent him from being awful.

no it isnt as fast as others and yes i did some practice with zss and figured out its quite easy to get back to the stage with her she can recover with almost everyone near the edge

 

[BSP]

also even though i hate him, sonic can move to to like B tier he has good recovery but a hard time killing he's the fastest character in the game he has great mind games and can actually combo like alot of the low tier characters.

My view : On paper, sonic is definitely not B tier material, his moveset is just plain crappy. However, IRL, people dodge and fall for sonic's fake outs and whatnot, and he can actually get kills and seems borderline-viable (aka middle tier / C tier)

Basically, sonic's placement now is because people wouldnt give up on him and found ways to work with his moves. He isnt that great IMO, but if people keep falling for his tricks, he might manage to go up.

 

[1048576]

well this is some real theory bs, but what can you do when the sonic stands far enough away to see all your attacks coming, yet close enough to run up and grab before you can react to it?

 

[Kewkky]

well this is some real theory bs, but what can you do when the sonic stands far enough away to see all your attacks coming, yet close enough to run up and grab before you can react to it?

Get grabbed.

And what can Sonic do if the opponent wisens up after the first 1-2 grabs?

 

[DMG]

I would just approach Sonic, while looking at my opponents controller/hearing him move beforehand.

 

[M@v]

Pierce is in the SBR, so I guess he can't make his predictions anymore.

At the moment, it's probably something like this:

MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
ICs
Marth
Wario
DDD

Wario has been disappointing lately and the consensus seems to be Marth has no bad matchups other than MK. Diddy has amazing potential but this doesn't always show in tournament results. ADHD has been placing well frequently, beating players like Ally. However, he also has placed 5th etc. So he's not consistent. ADHD is also the only really good Diddy.

DDD hasn't had good results at all, so I put him below Marth and Wario.

You guys should know the SBR starts the tier list project way before the release of the tier list, so it will probably be a rough analyses of the current metagame.

I REALLY like this order. In fact, I think that is exactly what it is. Ice climbers is a little shaky with me. Yes, they have AMAZING traits(A 0-death grab on everyone, and some super high priority moves), but they also have a very big weakness in Nana. She is ******** a lot of the time and as soon as she dies, its instantly an uphill battle for popo vs most people.

What people need to do, if they want to prove Snake is bad, is try to find as many "Wario on Brinstar" combinations against Snake as possible, or close enough to that where Snake obviously struggles. People have the mentality that because Snake has grenades, that you have to approach, which already puts them in a spot where they feel obligated to approaching and we all know how bad approaching is. The idea that you have to approach a character who has a projectile might be true... if you don't have the lead. Understanding that fully is the first step towards finding a stronger advantage on a character.

^THIS. I think snake's grenades are overrated, although I might be biased, since I use Falco or fox vs snakes most of the time. When I don't though, I still dont find much trouble getting around the grenades without approaching snake. Now a character like falco or pit would be hard to consistently avoid their projectiles, due to the range and speed of it.

 

[BSP]

Get grabbed.

And what can Sonic do if the opponent wisens up after the first 1-2 grabs?

Sonic still has mix ups for that, but they are all pretty mediocre. I guess to name a few he could start running at you, then stop, or he could jump and go for an ASC...he has the options, it just all depends on how the other player reacts.

 

[Kewkky]

Sonic still has mix ups for that, but they are all pretty mediocre. I guess to name a few he could start running at you, then stop, or he could jump and go for an ASC...he has the options, it just all depends on how the other player reacts.

So the more the opponent learns the Sonic, the harder it gets for Sonic to win... And at a faster rate than usual, since he depends on mindgames. I dunno, sounds pretty limited to me.

 

[Sorto]

Let me preface this by saying, that pierced, I believe that your prediction for tier list version 4 may prove to be more accurate in far future tier lists (depending on changes in the metagame ofcourse). But when it comes to tier list version 4, I think that your prediction may be a tad too extreme. Recently, I made a program on my computer that uses a combination of Ankoku's ranking list data, previous tier lists, and a variety of formulas to determine what I believe to be an accurate prediction for tier list version 4. Here you guys go. Let me know what you guys think.

S-Tier
1 Metaknight
2 Snake
3 Diddy Kong
4 Marth
5 Ice Climbers
6 Falco

A-Tier
7 King DeDeDe
8 Wario
9 Olimar
10 R.O.B
11 Lucario
12 Kirby
13 Pikachu

B-Tier
14 Donkey Kong
15 Zero Suit Samus
16 Mr. Game & Watch
17 Toon Link
18 Pit

C-Tier
19 Ike
20 Sonic
21 Luigi
22 Peach
23 Wolf
24 Fox

D-Tier
25 Pokémon Trainer
26 Sheik
27 Zelda
28 Bowser

E-Tier
29 Ness
30 Link
31 Lucas
32 Yoshi
33 Mario

F-Tier
34 Samus
35 Ganondorf
36 Captain Falcon
37 Jigglypuff

 

[FunkMaster]

ganon should be dead last.

 

[DMG]

Jigglypuff is clearly not the worst character. Clearly. That is all.

 

[Matamune]

Whoa Ike jumped up there.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

O.o

fox needs to be moved way up, and jiggs defanitly not last

>.>

 

[-LzR-]

Jiggz is low tier not the worst.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

ganon should be dead last.

Why?

Jigglypuff is clearly not the worst character. Clearly. That is all.

Why?

O.o
fox needs to be moved way up, and jiggs defanitly not last
>.>

Why?

Jiggz is low tier not the worst.

Why?

While sometimes discussions can get out of hand, it is rather disappointing to see everyone jumping at the chance to throw out an opinion to disprove another opinion rather than using facts. Seriously, at least try to point out why you think that person is wrong. Espically since this was based on some calculations rather than opinions. I am curious though the exact process you used to get this.

Now that I'm done ranting... I have a problem with G&Ws placement. It just does not seem to accurately represent the abilities he has. When you look at ZSS, DK, Kirby, ROB and a few more above that, G&W has more tools to work with than they do (espically kirby).

G&W can solve the major problems they all face easily. The light weights suffer from being killed at low percents, with bucket braking, G&W improves his life span by a larger percent than they do.

Recovery is not much of an issue because all of them (bar olimar) have proficent recovery. Killing is an issue with a number of them (kirby, ZSS, rob, etc.).

G&W has extremely powerful, high priority and disjointed smashes that can KO with about as much power as Snake's Utilt does when fresh and sweetspotted. And the fact that they are spammable and not easily punished when used correctly.

G&W also has the advantage of spacing. With many moves like Bair and Dtilt that are disjointed, G&W can outspace many opponents. While he does not have a reliable projectile, he has a proficent defence against many that makes camping almost pointless. The bucket.

Yeah, so when comparing these strengths to a few above him, it just doesn't make sense he is that low. I would place it more accuractely to be above DK for sure, but then it's a toss up in the A tier.

Edit: I am not sure about the high priority thing on his smashes, but the fact that they are disjointed makes them able to beat out many things. (Usmash I believe gets superarmor or inviciblity frames)

 

[Death Arcana]

Jigglypuff may be better but she has like no tournament results tiers are based off tournament results and the meta game right?

 

[Meru.]

22 Peach

*Dies*

Peach does not deserve to go down.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

19 Ike

O_o

What the heck happened there? Try 25, with Sheik moving back up.

 

[daisho]

Now that I'm done ranting... I have a problem with G&Ws placement. It just does not seem to accurately represent the abilities he has. When you look at ZSS, DK, Kirby, ROB and a few more above that, G&W has more tools to work with than they do (espically kirby).

G&W can solve the major problems they all face easily. The light weights suffer from being killed at low percents, with bucket braking, G&W improves his life span by a larger percent than they do.

Recovery is not much of an issue because all of them (bar olimar) have proficent recovery. Killing is an issue with a number of them (kirby, ZSS, rob, etc.).

G&W has extremely powerful, high priority and disjointed smashes that can KO with about as much power as Snake's Utilt does when fresh and sweetspotted. And the fact that they are spammable and not easily punished when used correctly.

G&W also has the advantage of spacing. With many moves like Bair and Dtilt that are disjointed, G&W can outspace many opponents. While he does not have a reliable projectile, he has a proficent defence against many that makes camping almost pointless. The bucket.

Yeah, so when comparing these strengths to a few above him, it just doesn't make sense he is that low. I would place it more accuractely to be above DK for sure, but then it's a toss up in the A tier.

Edit: I am not sure about the high priority thing on his smashes, but the fact that they are disjointed makes them able to beat out many things. (Usmash I believe gets superarmor or inviciblity frames)

Interestingly enough... all of those things that you said Game and watch are good at DK is better (except maybe spacing... but it's close). Game and watch has a better recovery but DK lives so much longer. DK has better kill power, better range and better kill setups. Game and watches smashes are pretty telegraphed and easily avoidable for the most part... His best KO move is by far fair. And my f tilt clanks with some of your smashes so they aren't so high priority... in fact all his attacks have pretty bad priority. You didn't mention his grab game which is pretty good (not as good as DK though)

 

[YesNoMaybeSo]

lol at jigglypuff being last on sorto's list and not cf then ganon

but you knew what you were tlaking abut when u did link

 

[DMG]

The reason I personally didn't explain why Jigglypuff is not last, or why I feel that way, is because certain things are a given. It's practically a given that Jigglypuff will almost always be better than at least 1 other character. Sure, I could write a 3 page essay about why Jigglypuff is better than Ganondorf, but I shouldn't have to for something as trivial as that. Now, if I was saying Lucario was too high or if I was saying something a bit more subjective, then yes it would be fair to ask me to provide some proof/reasoning behind that statement. But saying that Jigglypuff isn't last is almost guaranteed to be true for the entirety of Brawl.

 

[Praxis]

Why?


Now that I'm done ranting... I have a problem with G&Ws placement. It just does not seem to accurately represent the abilities he has. When you look at ZSS, DK, Kirby, ROB and a few more above that, G&W has more tools to work with than they do (espically kirby).

No; it accurately represents the flaws G&W has, flaws that only high level players really take advantage of.

G&W can solve the major problems they all face easily. The light weights suffer from being killed at low percents, with bucket braking, G&W improves his life span by a larger percent than they do.

Agreed on bucket braking.

Recovery is not much of an issue because all of them (bar olimar) have proficent recovery. Killing is an issue with a number of them (kirby, ZSS, rob, etc.).

Agreed on recovery.

G&W has extremely powerful, high priority and disjointed smashes that can KO with about as much power as Snake's Utilt does when fresh and sweetspotted. And the fact that they are spammable and not easily punished when used correctly.

None of which can be used to punish. Snake? Hit his shield, eat a utilt. G&W can't punish with any of his smashes out of shield. I consistently live to 150% against G&W's. His smashes are very easily outspaced.

G&W also has the advantage of spacing. With many moves like Bair and Dtilt that are disjointed, G&W can outspace many opponents. While he does not have a reliable projectile, he has a proficent defence against many that makes camping almost pointless. The bucket.

The bucket is overrated, as is G&W's bair. Bair is a very poor spacing tool, with an absurd amount of lag. It is worthless on shield, as over 70% of the cast can punish it with a jab or other move OOS, and most of the rest have something else to deal with it. I'm talking about dropping the shield DURING the bair before the last hit comes out; there's a delay that's greater than the 10-12 frames needed to drop shield and perform a fast move.

Heck, you can smash DI through bair and bair him back, and SDI out of the first hit of his nair.

Yeah, so when comparing these strengths to a few above him, it just doesn't make sense he is that low. I would place it more accuractely to be above DK for sure, but then it's a toss up in the A tier.

G&W has no safe approaches or moves and has a hard time getting to the ground safely without being punished when his opponent fully understands the character. Luckily for him, most people don't.

G&W also has terrible, TERRIBLE matchups against Metaknight, Snake, Marth, and Diddy which make him, for the most part, unviable. Again, G&W gets away with a lot of crap that he shouldn't just because most players don't understand how to punish his moveset.

Watch Havok double two-stock 2-0 UTD Zac and Valdens back to back at the same tournament for an example of a player who knows how to handle the matchup. UTD Zac couldn't do anything; and it wasn't his fault. MK crushes G&W.



Remember, the tier list is about competitive viability. A character that gets 65:35'd by MK,and straight up loses badly to 4 of the top 7 characters including the top 3, is not good.

 

[Sorto]

I am glad that a lot of you liked the tier list i made. and i am also glad that a lot of you challenged it. As i said before its based on mathematics, not personal feeling. for the most part my tier list prediction is similar to ankokus ranking list, as it uses his tournament results and even avgs his scores into the total. for those of you who wish to argue about jiggly and g and w, look at there results on ankokus thread. i didnt make up those numbers, the players did. there tournament representation is minimal. i was in awe wen isaw jigglys score below falcons, but i mean look at how he is doin in tournies. thats somethin i cant fix. The same argument goes or characters who ranked higher then you guys would imagine. They are doin well in tournament. my formula avgs ankokus scores for 50 percent of the score. the other half is made up of a scoring system that gives a point for each top 8, 5 points for each top 4, 15 points for each top 2 and 30 for each win. So in a theoretical tournament of all nesses and an mk, if mk got first he would still rank number 1 even if ness took all the other placings. Sorry if some of this message is badly formatted i am actually typing it on my phone...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I am glad that a lot of you liked the tier list i made. and i am also glad that a lot of you challenged it. As i said before its based on mathematics, not personal feeling. for the most part my tier list prediction is similar to ankokus ranking list, as it uses his tournament results and even avgs his scores into the total. for those of you who wish to argue about jiggly and g and w, look at there results on ankokus thread. i didnt make up those numbers, the players did. there tournament representation is minimal. i was in awe wen isaw jigglys score below falcons, but i mean look at how he is doin in tournies. thats somethin i cant fix. The same argument goes or characters who ranked higher then you guys would imagine. They are doin well in tournament. my formula avgs ankokus scores for 50 percent of the score. the other half is made up of a scoring system that gives a point for each top 8, 5 points for each top 4, 15 points for each top 2 and 30 for each win. So in a theoretical tournament of all nesses and an mk, if mk got first he would still rank number 1 even if ness took all the other placings. Sorry if some of this message is badly formatted i am actually typing it on my phone...

The problem is, ankoku's list measures centralization, not power in the metagame.

Ask him yourself, he agrees with me that it doesn't measure character power (though, is useful for other things, since current centralization is a factor in for example, ban discussions).



By the exact same statistical analysis you should take up smoking to avoid cardiovascular disease.



You can double check the math if you want, at this point comparing MK to bottom tier is probably the only place where the results are consistent.



Statistics, wow I think I paid way too much attention in that class.

stuff

Truth, right here, G&W is significantly overrated because he's beast at lower levels of play, but fighting him properly, especially learning to space and SDI his moves kills him.


Better SDI really changes thing, because back in the day he was amazing, simplistic but amazing, now he's just becoming simplistic.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

"A character that gets 65:35'd by MK,and straight up loses badly to 4 of the top 7 characters including the top 3, is not good."

Good thing G&W doesn't fit this statement.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@DMG: Assumptions like that just bother me. I find it is not good to deal with assumptions like that because it tends to lead people into being opinionated with no backing of what they are saying. That eventually leads to a rather stale metagame devolpment when you have no one challenging the current metagame opinions. Heck, CF worse than Ganon seems pretty hard to shallow right now when you look back on it. Plus, a little education can go a long way for future discussions with that one person that happens to be reading your post.

About G&W: A little bit more information than I was familiar with from before. And are his flaws really that exploitable by those in A tier so much that it pushes him into the Btier?

Regarding the method: That I didn't think there would be so much focus on the rankings list. Might there be any other statistical layouts you could look at that might help fine tune your results?

 

[DMG]

Jigglypuff being better than at least 1 character at all times is a given. I'm not gonna provide much reasoning behind things that are a given. Note that I'm not talking specifically about Low Tiers or characters that "don't matter". I'm just saying that I shouldn't have to explain myself for this instance. For things more unclear, sure I will go in depth like I try to do. But for something like that, there's no need.

As for G&W, he's gotten worse over the progression of Brawl, however I'm not sure he will drop out of A tier. His hardest counters are the most common characters, so it's kinda hard to see him as competitively viable like characters in the A tier are labeled as.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@DMG: Assumptions like that just bother me. I find it is not good to deal with assumptions like that because it tends to lead people into being opinionated with no backing of what they are saying. That eventually leads to a rather stale metagame devolpment when you have no one challenging the current metagame opinions. Heck, CF worse than Ganon seems pretty hard to shallow right now when you look back on it. Plus, a little education can go a long way for future discussions with that one person that happens to be reading your post.

About G&W: A little bit more information than I was familiar with from before. And are his flaws really that exploitable by those in A tier so much that it pushes him into the Btier?

Regarding the method: That I didn't think there would be so much focus on the rankings list. Might there be any other statistical layouts you could look at that might help fine tune your results?

Honestly, Ganondorf vs. Captain Falcon, shallow no? Needed frame testing to confirm? Yes.


I'll agree in general with your statement, however let me say this. Referencing the match-up charts for Ganondorf and jiggs, jiggs is better by far. Ganon lacks a single advantageous match-up, whereas Jiggs has at least one, Ganondorf himself. That alone is enough to push her ahead of a character that loses to literally everyone.


So, it's ok to challenge people, but don't force everyone to reinvent the wheel every discussion, referencing to prior material is sufficient in most cases.

Jigglypuff being better than at least 1 character at all times is a given. I'm not gonna provide much reasoning behind things that are a given. Note that I'm not talking specifically about Low Tiers or characters that "don't matter". I'm just saying that I shouldn't have to explain myself for this instance. For things more unclear, sure I will go in depth like I try to do. But for something like that, there's no need.

As for G&W, he's gotten worse over the progression of Brawl, however I'm not sure he will drop out of A tier. His hardest counters are the most common characters, so it's kinda hard to see him as competitively viable like characters in the A tier are labeled as.

Nothing is ever completely a given, but "referencing to their respective match-ups jigglypuff is far superior" is enough to establish your point.




edit:

"A character that gets 65:35'd by MK,and straight up loses badly to 4 of the top 7 characters including the top 3, is not good."

Good thing G&W doesn't fit this statement.

Of the mentioned match-ups, what is incorrect then?

Metaknight, Snake, Marth, and Diddy, who does he not lose at least 40-60 to?

 

[DMG]

I'm too lazy to type that though adumbrodeus. I even copy pasta'd your name into this post. lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm too lazy to type that though adumbrodeus. I even copy pasta'd your name into this post. lol

Lol, so you can run away for 8 minutes, write a 3 page essay about characters that are not a given, and 2 paragraphs about why it's a given, but not write a sentence?


DMG I think I love you.




Anyway, I suppose you could copy/paste my sentence, changing a word or two.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think DMG wanted to actually give you an expanded explanation.