Potential Roster/Stage Leak Thread

[Dust319]

Mario Universe, Donkey Kong Universe. Whatever you may call it, @Crocovile was trying to point out that all of these characters originate from that same universe. So, this roster does in fact have 11 Mario/Donkey Kong/Yoshi characters. Very over represented.

.)

Just for historical reference, presuming donkey kong, wario, and yoshi are Mario Universe characters:

Smash 64 had 4 Mario Universe characters out of a cast of 12. Melee had 7 of 24, Brawl had 8 of 35/39 (depending who your talking to)

4/12 = 1/3 of cast of 64

7/24 > 1/4 cast of Melee

8/35 > 1/5 cast of Brawl (no transformations)

8/39 > 1/5 cast of brawl (with transformations)

11/48 < 1/4 but > 1/5 cast we know for smash 3ds

 

[LeeYawshee]

Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser will always be in Smash
Rosalina and Bowser Jr. deserve a spot in their own right, six is fine for Nintendo's biggest franchise.
Now the tricky part is Dr. Mario who doesn't represent the series... Or does it? Maybe it represents how Mario is more than just a plumber and an adventurer. He represents Mario spin off games in a sense. Does he deserve a spot? Maybe.

 

[Geoffrey Druyts]

Why didn't Sakurai spend the extra time adding cuts from Brawl instead of adding Prescription mario, emo pit, and marth w/ long hair?

"Prescription Mario" was one of these cuts.

 

[Luigi#1]

The Mario universe reps taking in the leak is closer to 1/5.

 

[GunGunW]

Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser are the most important characters of the franchise. And really the most deserving ones to be in Smash, anyone after that is extra. Rosalina is probably the most deserving "extra", because she's been recurring in almost every Mario game after Galaxy. It should of stopped after her, again, in my opinion. I get that people here like Bowser Jr, but it's just how i feel. Dr. Mario though, do i need to explain this one? With custom movesets and unique alt costumes being used for characters, it seems they easily could have incorporated him the same way Project M does it.

No, Toad and Yoshi are also main characters and wouldn't be considered "extra"

 

[Luigi#1]

Why didn't Sakurai spend the extra time adding cuts from Brawl instead of adding Prescription mario, emo pit, and marth w/ long hair?

Prescription Mario is one of the cuts, long haired Marth uses Roy's main concept, Mewtwo is said to be back also, Young Link lives on by Toon Link, and nobody gives a crap about Pichu.

 

[Evello]

It's clear the 3DS version gimped the roster and wii u version. Remember Sakurai saying Ice Climbers were proving to be a problem on 3DS hardware? And now we have the worst roster in smash history. Two Mario's, two links, two bowsers, 4 fire emblems, the duck hunt dog, transformations separated hogging up more character spots, and exactly ZERO of the hype three. Piles of clones, a tiny roster, few newcomers (with only two being notable).

This roster is horrible. For a series that's main draw is it's roster, the roster is always disappointing. I'm starting to think somebody other than Sakurai should be choosing. This is the worst roster in series history and considering melee, that's saying something.

You and many others here seem to misunderstand how game development works. Transformation characters don't hog spots. Developing Zelda and Sheik as separate characters takes no more time than making them as a joint character. All the modeling and animating and balancing is needed either way. Sakurai and his team do not begin making the game by saying "There must only be 50 spots!" They start with "We have this much development time, how can we allocate it to make as many fun characters as possible?"

Similarly, clones don't steal spots from other characters either because they take so little time to make. Once the dev team runs out of time to make more original characters, they squeeze a few clones in with their remaining scraps of time to pad out the roster. After Melee, Sakurai indicated that they could make at least 6 clones in the time it takes to make one original character (he basically said it was the Melee clones vs. Dedede). So even if Lucina, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Toon Link, and Falco were all cut, they might still not have enough time to make a single original character. We should be grateful for the clones, because it really is them or nothing.

As for you specific examples, Bowser and Bowser Jr. play nothing alike, the Duck Hunt Dog is an incredibly iconic and important character for Nintendo, and the FE series is a 25 year-old critically acclaimed series with 13+ installments so 4 reps is really not that bizarre, especially when 1 out of 4 is a clone that took almost no dev time. The three characters that people on this site are dying for (Ridley, Mewtwo, K Rool) are cool and all, but this is just one community. Much of the Japanese SSB community even makes fun of our obsession with those characters. Sakurai has no obligation to cater to any one specific fan group, or he would never get anything done because no group even agrees within itself. Some people want Dixie over K Rool, others want Zoroark over Mewtwo. Loads of people want the Chorus Kids, despite the fact that before Gematsu, most people had never heard of them. Sakurai has one obligation: to make a fun game for everyone, and given his past record, I generally trust his judgement on what he thinks would or would not make the game more fun.

I can understand people being upset because their favorite character(s) did not make the cut. It's always a bummer, and I seriously feel for you. However no character should ever be seen to "steal" another's spot. This constant slamming of characters as being unworthy is just so toxic. No amount of cutting characters would necessarily result in bringing in a specific new character or preventing a roster cut. And this roster really is massive. Obviously the devs want to make as big a roster as possible, but they also want to make a balanced game people can enjoy for a long time. Every time a new character is added they have to balance that character against all the others. As Sakurai put it, the amount of work is multiplied, not just added to, with each new character. And so for us to be complaining that we're only getting 17+ newcomers (one short of tied for the most in SSB history) is a little crazy, even if a few are clones.

I have no place telling you whether you should or shouldn't buy or appreciate the game, but I have high hopes that it will be the best SSB yet.

 

[MrPanic]

Imo you're not supposed to count the clones when comparing how much the series are represented. After all, they are added to fill up the roster, not to represent their series.

Personally I wouldn't count Dr.Mario as a Mario rep either, for the same reason Yoshi count as his own series.

 

[micstar615]

Rosalina and Bowser Jr deserve to be there imo. Mario has been a massively successful franchise for Nintendo, especially in the DS/Wii era. Same with Pokemon, 6 reps would be fine given how massively popular the franchise is. They're the first and second most successful franchises ever and they only take up like a 1/4th of the roster.

 

[Raijinken]

[sarcasm] But you don't understand, that means that only 75% of the roster is devoted to non-Mario, non-Pokemon characters. A measly 75%! It's criminal, that's what it is. [/sarcasm]

Oh right, I forgot Wario and Yoshi got demoted from Mario character status. And the Pokeball isn't a thing.

It's fine, though. There are only Pokemon and Mario fans in Nintendo's fanbase. The rest can do with 1-3 reps or none at all, they will surely enjoy using the Pokemon as much as everyone else.

But again. It's not that Mario and Pokemon don't deserve representation, it's that other franchises do too. Heck, as much as I hate Sonic and dislike Olimar and Fox, I don't argue that they deserve less representation. It'd be like arguing that since Melee is (debatably, consider this an example) the most popular Smash game that it deserves the most past stages.

Two franchises for 1/5-1/4 of the space, 20ish franchises for the rest.

 

[lemaskdemasque]

Hey does anyone know if there's a way we can watch the japanese direct tomorrow?

 

[TryHardOliver]

Meh, I actually think Duck Hunt Dog is the most likely in the whole leak, at least he's more interesting than Ice Climbers.
And admit it, it would be so satisfying to finally beat the crap outta that dog! XD

Hey does anyone know if there's a way we can watch the japanese direct tomorrow?

Someone will prob upload it on youtube

 

[Raijinken]

Someone will prob upload it on youtube

It's also probably streaming on NoJ's Youtube, as well as Niconico for those with accounts there.

 

[cochiseSMASH]

Some of the reactions here are a bit extreme given we don't know the full roster yet. But even if it was the final roster, we still are getting 12 new fighters that are not clones (counting Miis as one but they could easily count as three and boost that to 14). And on top of that, being able to switch out special moves means characters like Mega Man could play a dozen different ways. Not to mention alternate costumes...

 

[Thessbmzocker]

and nobody gives a crap about Pichu.

Stop saying nobody likes Pichu. I know many who liked him. Just because he was weak and hurt himself? He had something that not many characters have in the whole SSB history: An ability. Even if it is bad and damages the user, it was still unique at the time. And I main Pikachu but if I could, I would choose Pichu over Pikachu any day because of his ability. Pichu is a fun character in a game that is all about fun. If you don't like him, don't use him but don't say nobody gives a crap about that little mouse, because there are many that do!

 

[Saltwater Gem]

DK counts as a Mario rep? I must have missed Donkey Kong in Mario 3D World, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, Sunshine, Mario 64, you know all the mainstream Mario games. And who could forget Mario's memorable appearances in Tropical Freeze, DKCR, DK64, DKC3, DKC2, DKC, the Game Boy games.

Please... they are separate. They have separate protagonists, separate antagonists, separate stories, separate universes.

As far as Emo Pit goes... the bias is here in any event. Either he is a cheap clone and Sakurai gave him one or two small differences to justify making him his own character or he has a ton of unique differences and Sakurai put more work into him than he really warranted and OD'd on his favoritism.

Stop saying nobody likes Pichu. I know many who liked him. Just because he was weak and hurt himself? He had something that not many characters have in the whole SSB history: An ability. Even if it is bad and damages the user, it was still unique at the time. And I main Pikachu but if I could, I would choose Pichu over Pikachu any day because of his ability. Pichu is a fun character in a game that is all about fun. If you don't like him, don't use him but don't say nobody gives a crap about that little mouse, because there are many that do!

He certainly is by far the least missed cut character.

 

[Luigi#1]

Stop saying nobody likes Pichu. I know many who liked him. Just because he was weak and hurt himself? He had something that not many characters have in the whole SSB history: An ability. Even if it is bad and damages the user, it was still unique at the time. And I main Pikachu but if I could, I would choose Pichu over Pikachu any day because of his ability. Pichu is a fun character in a game that is all about fun. If you don't like him, don't use him but don't say nobody gives a crap about that little mouse, because there are many that do!

Dear god, never make a joke. Seriously, that rant ins,to that necessary.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Sooo...is it likely this 3DS direct will feature Smash information...?

 

[Deleted member]

Sooo...is it likely this 3DS direct will feature Smash information...?

I doubt it if it's not a international direct, will probably focus on japan only games.

 

[Shagadelic_Baby]

Is it confirmed that the direct Japanese exclusive?

 

[Opossum]

This is not the place to talk about the Direct. Any further off-topicness will be infracted.

 

[Luigi#1]

IGNORE POST!

 

[strawhatninja]

I wonder if Sakurai will address the leak in the Direct(if he is in it). Maybe he'll say something like since the Americans leak things and can't wait for official reveals I will just show you a character trailer in Japanese.

 

[MrSirSteven]

Well I just woke up and it looks like the Allstar dude was a no show. Pretty much knew nothing was going to happen, the dude said even if Allstar didn't show up he'd show us Ganondorfs Trophy description.

 

[Luigi#1]

I wonder if Sakurai will address the leak in the Direct(if he is in it). Maybe he'll say something like since the Americans leak things and can't wait for official reveals I will just show you a character trailer in Japanese.

That would be rude and unprofessional to blame all the Americans.

 

[DairunCates]

I doubt it if it's not a international direct, will probably focus on japan only games.

Actually, I'm gonna lean yes. Apparently, there's gonna be a press event at PAX according to Gamexplain. So, the Japanese Nintendo Direct could be to cover the information that gonna be covered in the PAX press event. That would make a North American and European one redundant since the info will already be available in English tomorrow.

 

[Petrichor]

Oh right, I forgot Wario and Yoshi got demoted from Mario character status. And the Pokeball isn't a thing.

It's fine, though. There are only Pokemon and Mario fans in Nintendo's fanbase. The rest can do with 1-3 reps or none at all, they will surely enjoy using the Pokemon as much as everyone else.

But again. It's not that Mario and Pokemon don't deserve representation, it's that other franchises do too. Heck, as much as I hate Sonic and dislike Olimar and Fox, I don't argue that they deserve less representation. It'd be like arguing that since Melee is (debatably, consider this an example) the most popular Smash game that it deserves the most past stages.

Two franchises for 1/5-1/4 of the space, 20ish franchises for the rest.

They didn't get demoted. They belong to their own universes. And we're talking about the roster, not about items. The roster is on an entirely different level to items.

Given that Mario and Pokemon are the two biggest franchises in all of gaming, I would definitely expect them to comprise a huge section of Nintendo's fanbase. And the reason they get so much representation is because they are more popular. If Star Fox or Pikmin or Xenoblade or Punch-Out sold on the same level as Pokemon, they'd get just as much representation. Sakurai can't put every single character or franchise in, so he puts in the ones that he figures will please the most people.

Other franchises do deserve representation, I agree. But Mario and Pokemon are the two biggest franchises in all of gaming. Expecting franchises like Star Fox and Pikmin, which have had far fewer games and are less iconic, to have the same level of representation as Mario and Pokemon is ridiculous. And I say this as a huge Pikmin fan.

As has been pointed out previously in this thread, Mario has a smaller share of the roster this time around than it has in any previous game, and that's regardless of whether or not you consider DK, Wario and Yoshi to be seperate universes. Complaining about Mario's share of the roster when it's the smallest it's ever been is also ridiculous. As for Pokemon, if the Mewtwo leak is true then Pokemon has the same number of characters that it did in Brawl, in a much bigger roster. So it has a smaller share of the roster this time around as well. You're complaining about two franchises hogging the roster when they have less of it now than they ever have.

 

[Laikue]

Nothin' here, sorry.

 

[Opossum]

Another reminder that leaks that have nothing to do with this leak and this leak only should not be posted here. This is not a General Leak thread.

 

[TheAnvil]

Technically you could count Mr G&W, Little Mac and Link (and Villager) as being part of the Mario Universe.

DK, Diddy and any other DK character are not Mario characters, but they exist within the same universe.
Yoshi most certainly is a Mario character, he's in pretty much every main Mario game, and his own games feature Mario, and other Mario characters.

A case can be made for Wario, but his strongest affiliation is with the Mario series, rather than his own.

 

[Luigi#1]

A case can be made for Wario, but his strongest affiliation is with the Mario series, rather than his own.

Well, Wario has Wario Ware, which is what his move set and looks are based on in Smash Bros, so...
Really, if you think about it, Wario is almost in the same case as DK. Almost because his name, and overalls appearance.

 

[Croshi]

To me, Bowser Jr. and Rosalina represent the biggest additions to the Mario cast since Yoshi - how Mario has changed since the Nintendo 64, if you will. Bowser Jr has appeared in most main Mario games since Sunshine, and has been playable/appeared in a majority of sports/party/spin-off games since then. Rosalina has appeared in Galaxy, Galaxy 2, and 3D World as a playable character no less, with tons of spin off appearances as well. They're both deserving characters I think.

 

[---]

have we seen this yet? i don't think it was in that imgur album. just found it on 4chan

I would hope this is real, Gunpei Yokoi deserves a reference in Smash for what he did towards advancing the gaming industry.

 

[The Legendary Beast]

I would hope this is real, Gunpei Yokoi deserves a reference in Smash for what he did towards advancing the gaming industry.

I agree, but is it wise to mention his death? I'd mention his hard work but not his death.

 

[TheAnvil]

Well, Wario has Wario Ware, which is what his move set and looks are based on in Smash Bros, so...
Really, if you think about it, Wario is almost in the same case as DK. Almost because his name, and overalls appearance.

That's why I said that a case could be made.

DK is a little different, as he's basically on equal footing with Mario, in the sense that they debuted together, and have since been kept largely apart outside of crossovers. Wario's most notable appearances are in Mario sports titles. Whereas DK has his own series of games that span many different genres themselves, even his own sport title.

 

[Deleted member]

Is it me or is the text saying "Mr. Game and Watch" different than before?

 

[Drclaw411]

There is no excuse for this atrocious roster. "Slightest difference means a character gets it's own slot rather than being an alt". Poppycock. I can think of a few differences between male and female wii fit trainer (boobs, pecs) and yet they are alts. Dr Mario is Mario in a coat. He is literally the definition of an alternate costume. And yet there he is, with his face looking at me on the character select screen.

I'm sorry. But I fail to see how playing as Mario in a coat warrants it's own roster spot. Any Pokeball or AT would have been a better choice. I can't wait until people try to find a difference in water ranger on the fludd that Mario uses vs the one that Mario-in-coat uses.

"Oh, the roster might not even be final though! All star mode!" You're right. Mii Fighter hasn't been unlocked yet. Shulk will then move up finishing the 2nd lowest row, which likely means Shulk is a clone of something too. Then, the bottom row will be Mii and the third parties.

Half this roster is clones, and ZERO of the hype three are included. And Mario-in-coat is included as it's own character. Duck Hunt Dog is it's own character instead of being an assist trophy. "But he has a unique play style!" Sorry, but something about NOT EVEN HAVING HIS OWN NAME says to me that there would have been far, far, far, far, far, far, FAR better choices to include in an ALL STAR GAME. What if real all-star games worked like that? "And for the East All-Stars...um...some team's water boy."

This roster includes Megaman and Pacman, which is fantastic. But there was zero excuse to cut Wolf, Ice Climbers, or Lucas. There was less than zero excuse not to include all of the hype 3, let alone NONE OF THEM. I'm sure game play wise, this game will be a blast. But just ONCE I'd like a Smash game to not produce so much disappointment upon the full roster's reveal. This feels like the dreaded 35 character ROB roster all over again. People trying to rationalize how Ridley could be DLC, how the "forbidden 7" (thus Mewtwo) could be DLC, how K Rool could be DLC if Nintendo got the Kremlings back...

I had so much hope this time around. It didn't seem like they could get away with gimping the roster this time. But here we are. Still only two DK reps. Still only two Metroid reps (and only one character). And Star Fox LOSES a rep...and the non-clone one at that! Meanwhile, Japan gets catered to by receiving the Duck Hunt Dog (doesn't even have a name) and the entire Fire Emblem franchise.

Sakurai: "Japan, you get everybody from the newest release of your favorite series. America? Ah, I see you want what you call the "hype three". Ridley? K Rool? Mewtwo? Hmmm...I decide...you get nary. I guess i'll also pour on two reps from KI because I made it. Also...no Ice Climbers and piles of clones because the 3DS version and stuff. Enjoy Super Smash Bros: Fire Emblem."

 

[Spire]

Donkey Kong introduced DK, Mario, and Pauline.

Mario spun-off into his own series, introducing Luigi, Peach, Toad, Bowser, the Koopalings (predecessors to Bowser Jr.), and then Yoshi. Years later, Jr. and Rosalina would appear.

Yoshi spun-off into its own series. DK resurrected as Donkey Kong Country, going on to define its own world and lore over many years, while still running parallel.

DK, Mario, and Yoshi are individual, parallel series that all exist under the colloquial "Mario" roof given its popularity over the other two, but technically Donkey Kong is the ultimate grandfather of the lineage... unless you'd like to enter Game & Watch territory (hence his appearance on the top row of the roster).

I think we can all agree that Mario, DK, and Yoshi are individual, yet tightly and inseparably related series. They are essentially a family, with DK, Mario, and Yoshi helming their own nuclear bloodlines. Conversely, the likes of The Legend of Zelda and Metroid were created antithetically to the Mario series, so while they exist in the same legal universe, any crossovers are currently stifled as such, having not truly entered canonical coexistence.

This is why Smash Bros. is so ****ing cool.

 

[TheBoozehammer]

There is no excuse for this atrocious roster. "Slightest difference means a character gets it's own slot rather than being an alt". Poppycock. I can think of a few differences between male and female wii fit trainer (boobs, pecs) and yet they are alts. Dr Mario is Mario is a coat. He is literally the definition of an alternate costume. And yet there he is, with his face looking at me on the character select screen.

I'm sorry. But I fail to see how playing as Mario in a coat warrants it's own roster spot. Any Pokeball or AT would have been a better choice. I can't wait until people try to find a difference in water ranger on the fludd that Mario uses vs the one that Mario-in-coat uses.

"Oh, the roster might not even be final though! All star mode!" You're right. Mii Fighter hasn't been unlocked yet. Shulk will then move up finishing the 2nd lowest row, which likely means Shulk is a clone of something too. Then, the bottom row will be Mii and the third parties.

Half this roster is clones, and ZERO of the hype three are included. And Mario-in-coat is included as it's own character. Duck Hunt Dog is it's own character instead of being an assist trophy. "But he has a unique play style!" Sorry, but something about NOT EVEN HAVING HIS OWN NAME says to me that there would have been far, far, far, far, far, far, FAR better choices to include in an ALL STAR GAME. What if real all-star games worked like that? "And for the East All-Stars...um...some team's water boy."

This roster includes Megaman and Pacman, which is fantastic. But there was zero excuse to cut Wolf, Ice Climbers, or Lucas. There was less than zero excuse not to include all of the hype 3, let alone NONE OF THEM. I'm sure game play wise, this game will be a blast. But just ONCE I'd like a Smash game to produce so much disappointment upon the full roster's reveal. This feels like the dreaded 35 character ROB roster all over again. People trying to rationalize how Ridley could be DLC, how the "forbidden 7" (thus Mewtwo) could be DLC, how K Rool could be DLC if Nintendo got the Kremlings back...

I had so much hope this time around. It didn't seem like they could get away with gimping the roster this time. But here we are. Still only two DK reps. Still only two Metroid reps (and only one character). And Star Fox LOSES a rep...and the non-clone one at that! Meanwhile, Japan gets catered to by receiving the Duck Hunt Dog (doesn't even have a name) and the entire Fire Emblem franchise.

Sakurai: "Japan, you get everybody from the newest release of your favorite series. America? Ah, I see you want what you call the "hype three". Ridley? K Rool? Mewtwo? Hmmm...I decide...you get nary. I guess i'll also pour on two reps from FE because I made it. Also...no Ice Climbers and piles of clones because the 3DS version and stuff. Enjoy Super Smash Bros: Fire Emblem."

Dude, calm down. Look at all the characters already revealed, we still have a great roster.

 

[KawaiiPiranha]

There is no excuse for this atrocious roster. "Slightest difference means a character gets it's own slot rather than being an alt". Poppycock. I can think of a few differences between male and female wii fit trainer (boobs, pecs) and yet they are alts. Dr Mario is Mario in a coat. He is literally the definition of an alternate costume. And yet there he is, with his face looking at me on the character select screen.

I'm sorry. But I fail to see how playing as Mario in a coat warrants it's own roster spot. Any Pokeball or AT would have been a better choice. I can't wait until people try to find a difference in water ranger on the fludd that Mario uses vs the one that Mario-in-coat uses.

"Oh, the roster might not even be final though! All star mode!" You're right. Mii Fighter hasn't been unlocked yet. Shulk will then move up finishing the 2nd lowest row, which likely means Shulk is a clone of something too. Then, the bottom row will be Mii and the third parties.

Half this roster is clones, and ZERO of the hype three are included. And Mario-in-coat is included as it's own character. Duck Hunt Dog is it's own character instead of being an assist trophy. "But he has a unique play style!" Sorry, but something about NOT EVEN HAVING HIS OWN NAME says to me that there would have been far, far, far, far, far, far, FAR better choices to include in an ALL STAR GAME. What if real all-star games worked like that? "And for the East All-Stars...um...some team's water boy."

This roster includes Megaman and Pacman, which is fantastic. But there was zero excuse to cut Wolf, Ice Climbers, or Lucas. There was less than zero excuse not to include all of the hype 3, let alone NONE OF THEM. I'm sure game play wise, this game will be a blast. But just ONCE I'd like a Smash game to produce so much disappointment upon the full roster's reveal. This feels like the dreaded 35 character ROB roster all over again. People trying to rationalize how Ridley could be DLC, how the "forbidden 7" (thus Mewtwo) could be DLC, how K Rool could be DLC if Nintendo got the Kremlings back...

I had so much hope this time around. It didn't seem like they could get away with gimping the roster this time. But here we are. Still only two DK reps. Still only two Metroid reps (and only one character). And Star Fox LOSES a rep...and the non-clone one at that! Meanwhile, Japan gets catered to by receiving the Duck Hunt Dog (doesn't even have a name) and the entire Fire Emblem franchise.

Sakurai: "Japan, you get everybody from the newest release of your favorite series. America? Ah, I see you want what you call the "hype three". Ridley? K Rool? Mewtwo? Hmmm...I decide...you get nary. I guess i'll also pour on two reps from FE because I made it. Also...no Ice Climbers and piles of clones because the 3DS version and stuff. Enjoy Super Smash Bros: Fire Emblem."

K.Rool has been my most wanted character since Melee, and I still think this roster is fantastic. If the roster is so "atrocious", don't buy the game. It's as easy as that.