pick yur poison | ovah

[Xivii]

I don't want to tell mafia how to be optimal, but there's only really one way that it could really be effective. Otherwise, it's pretty useless. Keep in mind they can only use it in the day and they would have to predict who was going to be the lynch before hand. Roleblock I'd prefer because it's limited. GF is permanent and has harsh effects on both Mason and Cop. Roleblock only has strong effect on Mason, and GF would probably be worse.

 

[ranmaru]

Ah. I don't want Godfather anymore.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Ah. I don't want Godfather anymore.

Why? What changed?

 

[JeXs]

Why? What changed?

I don't want to tell mafia how to be optimal, but there's only really one way that it could really be effective. Otherwise, it's pretty useless. Keep in mind they can only use it in the day and they would have to predict who was going to be the lynch before hand. Roleblock I'd prefer because it's limited. GF is permanent and has harsh effects on both Mason and Cop. Roleblock only has strong effect on Mason, and GF would probably be worse.

 

[JeXs]

jan + roleblock could be good

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Dietz here for a one and done post before I got to Frosty Faustings but here's how I see our choices:


99.9% chance that mafia gave us the combo of Doc, Weak Doc, and Vig. If they're gutsy, regular cop. They'd be pretty crazy to pick Masonry since if you read the Mason's role it says whoever is partners with the first mason can pick a new guy in the case of a mishap.

With that in mind, I vote we give them Godfather for sure. In all reasonable scenarios it's a dead role to us, and the cases where we have a cop and they hit said godfather are slim.

After that the second role is a tossup between giving them vengeful and janitor, they're the least impactful on our Docs, and vengeful has a good chance of being stopped by a doc. I don't like the swing potential, but vengeful is still less BS than jan.

I'm not giving them 2 shot roleblocker in a game with low PR numbers and high amounts of protectives that will probably need to claim eventually, and I'm HELLA not giving them rolecop to find said doctors with.

I would venture as far as pre-voting anyone pushing for rolecop to be investigated as scum D1.

Vote: Godfather
Vote: Vengeful

 

[Nightmare Before Hardbody]

2x roleblocker (1) - maven
day rolecop (0)
vengeful mafiate (2) - maven wott
1 shot janitor (0)
godfather (1) - wott

not voting jexs ranmaru gheb red ryu joey rosalina jaytheunseen alakaslam seal zenny

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I don't want to tell mafia how to be optimal, but there's only really one way that it could really be effective. Otherwise, it's pretty useless. Keep in mind they can only use it in the day and they would have to predict who was going to be the lynch before hand. Roleblock I'd prefer because it's limited. GF is permanent and has harsh effects on both Mason and Cop. Roleblock only has strong effect on Mason, and GF would probably be worse.

I'd argue that 2 shot roleblocker could really screw us. I'm expecting a double doc duo to have to emerge from the woodwork and protect each other later down the road, and I'd rather that was 100% effective rather than banking on which of the other roles they were gracious enough to give us.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

@Marshy: Confirm if the janitor could treat Twilight as pre-lynch?

 

[Xivii]

I have an idea btw. It's sort of like hypocop, except not as traceable for mafia. I think it would be useful for us later on though when a person claims. I call it: Hypo-ison Breadcuming. Each of use states which 3 PRs we think mafia chose and in that group of 3, each PR includes their PR. I think this will be useful when it comes to claiming and limit mafia's options for CCing.

The problem with hypo cop is that the actual cop can be easily traced because the sample space is too large (so it's easy for the non-cops to pick incorrect results that the mafia can easily point out) and the actual cop will have perfect results. For example, if it were Day 4 and a hypocop were to occur, the cop would have 3/3 accurate results. Where as everyone else would probably have 1/3 - 2/3 accurate results.

With this however, each PR only has to be accurate on 1/3 and he has no knowledge of the other two. Furthermore, the sample space is tiny. Because there's only 5 PRs to choose from, each player is likely to get between 1/3-3/3 of the PRs. So mafia wont be able to trace who the actual PRs are.

Ranmaru, what do you think of this?

 

[Destined to be DOOM]

@Marshy: Confirm if the janitor could treat Twilight as pre-lynch?

aye

 

[Wots All This Then?]

In the end, I want everyone to be 100% clear that the worst options we can give them either individually or in combination imo is 2x Roleblocker, which can stop any of our PRs at any time in a game where I expect claims to be pretty forthcoming since it's a semi-open setup. And Day Rolecop, which could check any of our PRs at any time (like... when we claim for example) and can inform a PR shot on N1 before we even know a flip, to which we have no real counterplay besides Doccing them with complete accuracy.

 

[Xivii]

Dietz here for a one and done post before I got to Frosty Faustings but here's how I see our choices:


99.9% chance that mafia gave us the combo of Doc, Weak Doc, and Vig. If they're gutsy, regular cop. They'd be pretty crazy to pick Masonry since if you read the Mason's role it says whoever is partners with the first mason can pick a new guy in the case of a mishap.

With that in mind, I vote we give them Godfather for sure. In all reasonable scenarios it's a dead role to us, and the cases where we have a cop and they hit said godfather are slim.

After that the second role is a tossup between giving them vengeful and janitor, they're the least impactful on our Docs, and vengeful has a good chance of being stopped by a doc. I don't like the swing potential, but vengeful is still less BS than jan.

I'm not giving them 2 shot roleblocker in a game with low PR numbers and high amounts of protectives that will probably need to claim eventually, and I'm HELLA not giving them rolecop to find said doctors with.

I would venture as far as pre-voting anyone pushing for rolecop to be investigated as scum D1.

Vote: Godfather
Vote: Vengeful

This is literally the worst combo man. There's no reason to assume your combination.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

aye

Then Jan is much stronger than Zen stipulated. I'd prefer we stay away from it as well if we can at all help it, though I'd still prefer that over roleblock or rolecop.

 

[Xivii]

aye

Oh dam. Regardless, it's still pretty sucky relative to the other PRs.

 

[Xivii]

Deitz on that agenda status.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

This is literally the worst combo man. There's no reason to assume your combination.

Why.

I think it's an incredibly sound assumption to work with. If we're wrong we get free PR power while risking little. Even with a godfather it's a 1/12 chance of being hurtful to Mason or Cop. And if we haven't learned how to ignore claims when we need to on this site, then we aren't doing it right.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Deitz on that agenda status.

Damn straight lol. I'm making it crystal clear what I think is good and what I think is bad so it happens. Becuase I don't see us coming through in good shape if it doesn't.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Dietz here for a one and done post before I got to Frosty Faustings but here's how I see our choices:


99.9% chance that mafia gave us the combo of Doc, Weak Doc, and Vig. If they're gutsy, regular cop. They'd be pretty crazy to pick Masonry since if you read the Mason's role it says whoever is partners with the first mason can pick a new guy in the case of a mishap.

With that in mind, I vote we give them Godfather for sure. In all reasonable scenarios it's a dead role to us, and the cases where we have a cop and they hit said godfather are slim.

After that the second role is a tossup between giving them vengeful and janitor, they're the least impactful on our Docs, and vengeful has a good chance of being stopped by a doc. I don't like the swing potential, but vengeful is still less BS than jan.

I'm not giving them 2 shot roleblocker in a game with low PR numbers and high amounts of protectives that will probably need to claim eventually, and I'm HELLA not giving them rolecop to find said doctors with.

I would venture as far as pre-voting anyone pushing for rolecop to be investigated as scum D1.

Vote: Godfather
Vote: Vengeful

Side note: For the doctor tactic to successfully work, they would have to protect each other, night after night. Essentially, we'll be forfeiting two PRs to kill a mafia. I'm not saying it's a particularly bad idea, but this sacrifice must be acknowledged.

Also, another plausible combination is Weak Doc, Vig and Cop. If we gave them GF, then none of the cop's innocent results can actually be trusted.

 

[ranmaru]

I half agree with Dietz. Reason is that I feel his combination that he listed is a very possible one, but it comes down to that or Weak Doc/Masonizer/Vig.

@ Xivii : I don't know how I feel about that. Mafia know what roles aren't in the game and therefore they may be able to pick out who is what role and even possibly crumb the role themselves. I don't know if the pro's outweight the cons.

 

[Dooms]

Wait, why are we not just doing Vengeful and Jan?

Those two seem to not work well together at all, and it makes the Jan a 100% guess.

This mafia is not getting godfather, and I don't see why we need to give them a roleblock lmao.

 

[JeXs]

I half agree with Dietz. Reason is that I feel his combination that he listed is a very possible one, but it comes down to that or Weak Doc/Masonizer/Vig.

@ Xivii : I don't know how I feel about that. Mafia know what roles aren't in the game and therefore they may be able to pick out who is what role and even possibly crumb the role themselves. I don't know if the pro's outweight the cons.

why would mafia give us 2 docs . it makes it so much harder to get kills early on. i agree with the weak doc/mason/vig combo.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Basically, I'm pretty sure if we actually have a Mason or Cop, they can suck it up through a single Godfather and we can take those results with some grains of salt and take what we were given. (imo though I'll be approaching any cop claims from the perspective they're a fake-claim magnet anyways, so why I'd be concerned that a claimed one's results might also be wrong seems secondary).

If we can't learn to not rely on PRs in a Marshy setup we're doing it wrong. There's going to be a lot of Wifom either way in this setup, so I'm leaning towards protecting the roles that do good without proof of purchase as much as I can.


@Marshy: Does the Mason die if targeting a Godfather?


@ RosalinaSGS : If they both want to be 100% then yeah, but we can get by on one claimed being protected by the other and wifoming the claimed's protect. Either way that's often still a net gain because Mafia have to guess if it's really being protected every night.


@Joey: Jan/Vengeful would be a reasonable combo if people really really don't want Godfather, but like I said above, I wouldn't trust a cop claim at face value anyways so it feels like a drop in the bucket.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

why would mafia give us 2 docs . it makes it so much harder to get kills early on. i agree with the weak doc/mason/vig combo.

Because Cop and Mason individually are more capable of screwing scumteam outright, docs are just nuisances, and one has a chance of croaking over dead.

And as we know, scum are thoroughbred cowards kek

 

[Xivii]

Look.

Janitor is limited. 1x
Roleblock is limited. 2x
Vengeful is limited. 1x

Day Janitor is crap as Janitor's only real use is to allow scum to claim a PR that the rest of the game is oblivious to. Usually for this case, it is placed with a Role Cop combination. Firstly, I think we all agree that we aren't giving them Role Cop no matter what we choose. Secondly, Day Janitoring doesn't allow them the benefit of secretly taking on the role of a PR. Since a PR is going to claim before they are lynched, the cat is out of the bag, and if mafia tries to Jan, take on the role, and CC later, then we got obvscum. This could be used for mafia if they CC earlier, but that also is in our favor as it shrinks things down to 2. It's just over all a really useless role for mafia to have this game.

Roleblock will probably not be used D1 or until there is a claim. Mafia has to risk wasting their limited resource otherwise. Because of this we will have free range on at least one of N1-N3. And even if Mafia manages to hit a PR, we still have two others.

Venegeful is WORSE than ROLEBLOCK x 500. A kill completely eliminates a PR. A limited RB can only temporarily disable them, and we have a higher chance of getting information before or after so.

 

[Xivii]

Dietz Mason recruits Godfather, and not only that, I think if Mason dies afterwards, Godfather keeps the Mason ability.

 

[ranmaru]

why would mafia give us 2 docs . it makes it so much harder to get kills early on. i agree with the weak doc/mason/vig combo.

They are not going to give us cop in most cases. Double doc (which I sometimes like to team as) would be the scenario if they didn't want to pick Doctor and instead chose a Masonizer. I just have no idea which they picked and would treat each as likely instead of certain.

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah I think we can deal with Jan. Seeing Zen's argument I'd prefer RB over vengeful. We can deal with a missed PR action, better that than a death. Just dayplay.

 

[da marsh]

@Marshy: Does the Mason die if targeting a Godfather?

You are a masoniser. Once during the game, at night, you can try to recruit another player. If they are protown (or have the Godfather role) you will succeed and be allowed to speak to them privately day and night

from da op. i suggest doublecheckin it in case of any questions related 2 da setup 4 future reference

 

[Xivii]

@ Xivii : I don't know how I feel about that. Mafia know what roles aren't in the game and therefore they may be able to pick out who is what role and even possibly crumb the role themselves. I don't know if the pro's outweight the cons.

Let me put it this way:

There are 5 PR choices.
Each person picks 3.
The maximum a person can get wrong is 5 - 3 = 2.

Therefore, everyone person will get at least 1/3 of the PRs correct. Since the PRs are only required to have a 1/3 degree of accuracy, they cannot be traced by the mafia.

What does everyone else think of this??

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vengeful/Roleblocker imo.

Let mafia get a roleblocker and a semi terrorist, it super restricts them later on if we play smart.

 

[Dooms]

I agree with Mason/Vig/Weak Doc btw.

I'm actually starting to side towards Roleblock/Janitor.

 

[ranmaru]

Zen I guess it's fine as long as we don't forget to play the day, as we may when we play while we lay, I do say.

Also think it's optimal for us to pick as soon as possible? I want to get day started and don't want to get stuck arguing/debating roles.

 

[Xivii]

I'd like to do the hypo-ison this phase.

Also the debate is pro-town. It gives us insight into motivations for people voting for certain roles, especially later on when we know the PRs the scum picked.

 

[ranmaru]

Your thoughts Jexs?

I just don't want to drag it out. I want to get to dayplay. Meaning, RVS. I just think of this phase as picking roles.

Vote: Jan and Roleblock

Cool with hypo.

 

[ranmaru]

Doctor/WeakDoc/Vig.

 

[Xivii]

Vote: Jan
Vote: Roleblock


Would like to hear from

5 gheb
9 jaytheunseen
10 alakaslam
11 seal

before we have a hammer on either of the perks.

@Everyone: In your next post if you have any problems with hypo-poison, and if not, go head and do yours.

Weak Doc/Mason/Vig

 

[Xivii]

in your next post [state]*

 

[JeXs]

weak doc/mason/vig

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Look.

Janitor is limited. 1x
Roleblock is limited. 2x
Vengeful is limited. 1x

Day Janitor is crap as Janitor's only real use is to allow scum to claim a PR that the rest of the game is oblivious to. Usually for this case, it is placed with a Role Cop combination. Firstly, I think we all agree that we aren't giving them Role Cop no matter what we choose. Secondly, Day Janitoring doesn't allow them the benefit of secretly taking on the role of a PR. Since a PR is going to claim before they are lynched, the cat is out of the bag, and if mafia tries to Jan, take on the role, and CC later, then we got obvscum. This could be used for mafia if they CC earlier, but that also is in our favor as it shrinks things down to 2. It's just over all a really useless role for mafia to have this game.

Roleblock will probably not be used D1 or until there is a claim. Mafia has to risk wasting their limited resource otherwise. Because of this we will have free range on at least one of N1-N3. And even if Mafia manages to hit a PR, we still have two others.

Venegeful is WORSE than ROLEBLOCK x 500. A kill completely eliminates a PR. A limited RB can only temporarily disable them, and we have a higher chance of getting information before or after so.

Iagree on rhe side of rb over vengeful
I still dont like losing a flip in a game,especially as i doubt cop exists in the setup and scum hella unlikely to choose masons for clearing purposes.