Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus

[Shokio]

No worries.
Honestly, the very very very very very (couldn't find any other way to add emphasis here) most important thing you did was stay respectful and polite, and acknowledging where others are coming from.
You really helped in that regard, and I wish more smashers were like this.

Edit: For anyone else,

Aside from just the 3.02 reversions of Dash cancelled laser and her grab, is there anything they could add to ZSS to push her back into her old playstyle? Are there any other mechanics that would work with her old playstyles that the devs could look at if they didn't want to do this changes specifically?

She wouldn't need anything else. The main reason why we're all upset at her changes is becuase EVERYONE thought she was a perfectly fine character to begin with. For me, I expected her to have the shortest change-log in 3.5, because I felt she was nearly perfect in 3.0. And I'm sure others feel that way too.

She literally just need her Fair and Up Smash fixed.
Her down smash stun time and dair nerfed.

And that was it.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Normalizing the angle and stuff on Nair to make it combo less easily I can get.

The range nerf was BS.

 

[Legit]

She wouldn't need anything else. The main reason why we're all upset at her changes is becuase EVERYONE thought she was a perfectly fine character to begin with. For me, I expected her to have the shortest change-log in 3.5, because I felt she was nearly perfect in 3.0. And I'm sure others feel that way too.

She literally just need her Fair and Up Smash fixed.
Her down smash stun time and dair nerfed.

And that was it.

Pretty much this. Divekick and upb could have also seen the nerfbat. I agree she was nearly perfect in 3.0. It's just baffling to see her undergo such a detrimental change.

 

[Stryker]

Another day, more silence.
Lets hope it's because they are hard at redesigning.

 

[JANKX]

No worries.
Honestly, the very very very very very (couldn't find any other way to add emphasis here) most important thing you did was stay respectful and polite, and acknowledging where others are coming from.
You really helped in that regard, and I wish more smashers were like this.

Edit: For anyone else,

Aside from just the 3.02 reversions of Dash cancelled laser and her grab, is there anything they could add to ZSS to push her back into her old playstyle? Are there any other mechanics that would work with her old playstyles that the devs could look at if they didn't want to do this changes specifically?

3.5 ZSS + JUMP CANCEL PARALYZER + TETHER GRAB!!!

Standard cooldown retained if not jump cancelled. You'd be able to wavedash out of any shot or jump out of harm's way when faced with reflectors. Also, imagine alternating between the uncharged shot and wavedashes, or being able to jump > shoot > jump cancel > shoot/aerial. Projectile speeds and warmup timings might need to be tweaked to prevent it from being OP, but I think it might be possible to balance it out enough to bring back the tether because her wavedash is pretty average. I'm a little split about the tether, but jump cancelling seems like it would be ridiculously fun to play with.

Or we could turn her into Mega Man who can literally run 'n gun... jump 'n shoot man! Could remove the standard side-b, or retain it as a smash-b input.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Airdodge cancel paralyzer would be an interesting option. 20 frame startup (if reverted) lines up very well with her SHFF airtime. I do like the simplicity of the dash cancel, but airdodge canceling would work. Just means we have to press more buttons more precisely.

The new laser speed means even the charged version moves faster than ZSS can run (2.6/2.25 vs 2.05), so even if she dash/airdodge cancels frame 1 there's going to be a bit of a gap (especially if it's changed to airdodge cancel). The uncharged shot used to travel just barely faster than ZSS could run (2.1) and the charged shot of course was slower (1.5). I don't think a windbox or anything of the sort would be necessary if they retained the new speeds. I could still see a potential range nerf; there's not a whole lot of reason for a charged shot to traverse 95% of FD and even the uncharged shot travels about 60%.

If her grab is reverted (I'd very much like that), I'd say that good use of her throws should always convey some degree of advantage. It's a high risk option, it needs to reward in kind. Bad DI should lead to solid followups, good DI should at minimum yield positional advantage.

I could see some other changes (they've mentioned nair range is under review already, reverse fsmash reversion would be nice since it's not really a thing outside of dsmash setups anyway, etc), but paralyzer mobility and grabs/throws remain the biggest points of contention due to their effect on her playstyle.

I doubt we'll see a whole lot of response for at least another day or two yet, it is a holiday after all

 

[Haku125]

After watching ZSS gameplay in 3.0 and playing around with ZSS in 3.5 I came to Smashboards to try to find the frames for dash canceling her paralyzer, and upon hearing that it's been removed I don't understand why. She seemed like a perfectly or near perfectly balanced character, and dash canceled paralyzer seemed like arguably her best approach. I haven't played her much so I don't really understand the full impact of the nerfs, but the character I wanted to pick up as a secondary is not the character I'm currently playing around with in 3.5. Signing to bring back 3.02 ZSS

 

[Foo]

Eh, I don't really see any reason for it to be air dodge cancel or jump cancel over dash cancel. I like the idea of dash cancel the most because it means you have to go forwards, even if it's only a little. That means it's harder to use as a retreat/spacing tool or anything like that.

It emphasized the main use of that, and that was to approach. If it hit, it had almost no hitstun (not positive, but I'm pretty sure it just sent you into the "air" for a frame then landing lag. It also did minimal shield stun). Uncharged didn't actually combo into anything except with absolutely frame perfect execution AND your opponent choosing the wrong option. Effectively, it just made it nearly impossible for your opponent to intercept your approach, so it forced them into defensive options. If ZSS had good shield pressure, it would have been super busted. However, all she had was semi safe moves and frame traps.

The only reason this blaster would be busted in 3.5 is because they wanted to give her a standard grab to better "fit her character." However, I think we all agree that it fits her character about as well as the ability to fly fits falco, being rooted to the ground fits ivysaur, or breakable weapons fit the fire emblem characters. They had to get rid of everything cool about her in order to fit the standard grab in.

I'm not sure why I started rambling, but I just woke up. My point is, dash cancel blaster is the way to go. Airdodge or jump cancel blaster promote spamming and spacing where dash cancel promotes approaching.

 

[Oracle]

damn yall are whiny

sorry your character has a real projectile now and you have to learn to play super smash bros

 

[Shokio]

Dash-Cancel is confirmed broken, despite absolutely no one complaining about it in 3.0. Only after it was removed did everyone notice just how broken that mechanic was. Mew-who? ZSS was a broken POS in 3.0 and now that she's been nerfed we need to learn how to play the game because we've been relying on janky brokenness this whole time.

/s

 

[SpiderMad]

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-5.339825/page-1262#post-18082622

damn yall are whiny

sorry your character has a real projectile now and you have to learn to play super smash bros

You'd say that phrase more so for a character that's clearly broken and over the line in what they rely on. But things like the mechanics themselves as a dash cancel and basically all of Lucario's everything aren't outrageously breaking Smash Laws for what creativity and character specific learning and nuisances they provide so long as they're not completely centralizing. People like Gimpyfish hate Lucario because they feel he's not a Smash character. I think there's a line, and Lucario is not over that line: just unique and depth filled over what your fundamental cookie cutter character is. The stuff just has to not be OP, which was what I THOUGHT this was originally about after giving her a normal grab: until Yeroc made a statement calling other cancels to be janky when they're not close to OP. I mention in posts prior that I often like the projectile itself to be weak and carried by the movement options surrounding it.

Unless your joking or something having Air dashes yourself.

 

[Oro?!]

Dash cancel didn't seem broken in 3.02 because most of the cast was more broken or had more jank. Inserting 3.02 ZSS into 3.5 makes it very clear/apparent about how good it is.

Lol @ Oracle complaining about playing smash bros. Go air dash some more like in all the anime fighters.

 

[ph00tbag]

Except the cast that didn't have to put up with dash cancel in the first place still wouldn't have to put up with dash cancel. And most of the characters that did have to put up with it wouldn't now if all you did was take away the transcendental priority. And those characters that do have to put up with it still are really just victims of Gödel's Law.

 

[Shokio]

@ Oro?! The dash-cancel or the laser itself? Because like we've pointed out in this thread, there's literally 10 ways you can nerf the actual laser. (Lol @ anime fighters)

Anyways, ROB's Air Dash is way too polarizing and janky, it should be removed. That way ROB players will be forced to learn a skill-based, fundamental aerial game and not rely on BS anymore.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Oro?!]

If you nerf it 10 ways it will not serve the purpose that everyone is clamoring about enjoying from 3.02 zss. The dash cancel as an approach mechanic is never interactive for your opponent. If the dash cancel is bad enough, then it cannot be used as an approach method and the current laser would be better in every way.

I did try several things to retain dash cancel if you recall from my first big post on 3.5.

 

[ph00tbag]

Can you explain what the hell "interactive" means? My understanding of your use is you mean that once the Paralyzer is out, the exact sequence of events to follow is 100% predictable; the opponent only has one option to avoid it, and ZSS only needs to cover that option, and then has her punish. This is a ludicrously extreme interpretation of dash cancel's ramifications, and is patently false, to boot. I have to assume my understanding is wrong.

 

[Stryker]

If you nerf it 10 ways it will not serve the purpose that everyone is clamoring about enjoying from 3.02 zss. The dash cancel as an approach mechanic is never interactive for your opponent. If the dash cancel is bad enough, then it cannot be used as an approach method and the current laser would be better in every way.

I did try several things to retain dash cancel if you recall from my first big post on 3.5.

I hate to say this, but just because you tried other things that didn't work, doesn't automatically make this "The right answer".

I think what he is saying about approaching is that your opponent has no counter play in ZSS's choice of whether to dash cancel or not, making it always the right decision and never punishable. (Not agreeing or disagreeing, because I need to consider this more, just trying to get everyone on the same page)

 

[Foo]

If you nerf it 10 ways it will not serve the purpose that everyone is clamoring about enjoying from 3.02 zss. The dash cancel as an approach mechanic is never interactive for your opponent. If the dash cancel is bad enough, then it cannot be used as an approach method and the current laser would be better in every way.

I did try several things to retain dash cancel if you recall from my first big post on 3.5.

It's "interactive" if you can counterplay it. Making it really easy to hit through would do that. Say I dash cancel a laser and roy ftilts, it would go through the laser and hit ZSS. If the projectile is faster or the cancel is later, it wouldn't lead to guaranteed anything if hit or shielded unless fully charged. The only thing you said about making the cancel later was that it felt "unintuitive" which I think is... fraudulent. Everyone would just adjust their timing and poof. Make it short ranged uncharged so that running away is also a viable option.

I don't even care if it sucks, so long as you can dash cancel it. Right now, it's just a normal boring projectile and a BAD normal boring projectile. I'd accept a decent boring projectile, but I'd much prefer a fun and bad projectile.

 

[Fortress]

Petition to change this character back to being the second-worst in the game? Where I can I petition to lock this thread?

Thanks for making a Zero Suit that I actually have fun using, @ Oro?! <3

 

[ph00tbag]

I think what he is saying about approaching is that your opponent has no counter play in ZSS's choice of whether to dash cancel or not, making it always the right decision and never punishable. (Not agreeing or disagreeing, because I need to consider this more, just trying to get everyone on the same page)

Incidentally, it used to be you couldn't dash dance out of the dash cancel, before ZSS was first released. For reasons I never understood, the dash dance was reintroduced. I would find a reversion to that state perfectly acceptable.

 

[Foo]

Petition to change this character back to being the second-worst in the game? Where I can I petition to lock this thread?

Thanks for making a Zero Suit that I actually have fun using, @ Oro?! <3

Second worst character in the game? What? She was upper mid... Also, this kind of discussion is kinda of the point of forums, so kindly gtfo if you don't like it. Also, if you enjoy the character more than 3.02, it'd help if you stated what's different about her that makes you feel that way so this conversation is actually productive. It seems to boil down to 70% people who want 3.02 ZSS back because she was more fun, 5% people who disagree and make intelligent arguments, and 25% people who come here and flame us for no reason who don't even play the character.


@ ph00tbag I'd be totally cool with that as well. As long as you can still jump out of the dash, or the special dash was shorter than a normal dash but you couldn't jump.

 

[Stryker]

Petition to change this character back to being the second-worst in the game? Where I can I petition to lock this thread?

Thanks for making a Zero Suit that I actually have fun using, @ Oro?! <3

It's been mentioned about a thousand times in this thread already.
This is a different character now.
People who liked her before won't like her as much anymore, and people who didn't like her before (Like yourself) will probably like her now.

Some players are upset not because of changes in how good or strong she is. (Noone cared that she was second worse, noone cares about her nerfs this patch)
They are upset with a major shift in character playstyle, one that is being more and more proven as we have old ZSS players drop her, and new people coming into the boards. That's what happens when a character gets a new playstyle. Those who liked the original don't get what they came for anymore, and those who didn't like the original get to try out a different character from what she was.

 

[Fortress]

People who liked her before won't like her as much anymore, and people who didn't like her before (Like yourself) will probably like her now.

Loved her before, love her more now. Not sure where you get the idea that I disliked her.

it'd help if you stated what's different about her that makes you feel that way so this conversation is actually productive.

I enjoy that she has what is, in my opinion, a much better grab. The range is less rewarding, of course, but the grab itself is less punishable, and the speed of it seems to mesh well with her bent of play. A paralyzer that is not dash cancellable is also pretty solid, since before there was absolutely no reason to not be doing it. It just requires more thought for throwing out a blast now, which is nice, and fits better with the PMDT's overall plan of 'more thoughtful player interaction'. Things like Side-B > Up-B not really being as practical anymore is also nice in its own way, since each option has its function, and it's up to the player to know the advantages and disadvantages behind them before whipping them out.

I like that ZSS fits well with the mindset of the PMDT's approach to improving the game.

See? I can back up what I'm thinking. I say "can I petition to lock the thread" because it seems the majority of character discussion right after the update is (as is typically) "waaaah my character sucks now waaah I don't want to learn waaaah make them better again". Not too many people take the time to look at it beyond that, which makes it hard at the very least to approach threads titled like this one with any other mindest.

 

[Shokio]

@ Oro?! I just can't wrap my ahead around the concept of dash-cancelling being too strong, especially one that's attached to a quicker, shorter, and clankable laser (a nerfed one.) There were plenty of counter measure's in 3.02, and that was with the silly transcendence:

Punish the approach with an OoS option:

Escape to a platform:

Jump and intercept:

And of course, rolling toward her as she approaches was also an option. Couldn't find any footage of people doing it though (to my surprise, few people have actually ever thought of that option. That's 4 very easy and accessible options to combat the dash-cancel mechanic.

 

[Foo]

Loved her before, love her more now. Not sure where you get the idea that I disliked her.



I enjoy that she has what is, in my opinion, a much better grab. The range is less rewarding, of course, but the grab itself is less punishable, and the speed of it seems to mesh well with her bent of play. A paralyzer that is not dash cancellable is also pretty solid, since before there was absolutely no reason to not be doing it. It just requires more thought for throwing out a blast now, which is nice, and fits better with the PMDT's overall plan of 'more thoughtful player interaction'. Things like Side-B > Up-B not really being as practical anymore is also nice in its own way, since each option has its function, and it's up to the player to know the advantages and disadvantages behind them before whipping them out.

I like that ZSS fits well with the mindset of the PMDT's approach to improving the game.

See? I can back up what I'm thinking. I say "can I petition to lock the thread" because it seems the majority of character discussion right after the update is (as is typically) "waaaah my character sucks now waaah I don't want to learn waaaah make them better again". Not too many people take the time to look at it beyond that, which makes it hard at the very least to approach threads titled like this one with any other mindest.

The new grab itself if better overall, I guess, but people aren't upset with the new grab, they are upset with the price of said grab. The new grab meant to more dash cancel blaster and no more combos out of throws. Also, there were plenty of reasons not to blaster. If you didn't have stage control, you couldn't use it at all because it came out frame 20.

The main thing I don't like about the change is that ZSS is no longer an aggressive character. Her neutral b and nair made her very strong on offense, and her weak grab and poor oos made her bad on defense. Now, she is OK at both. You have to dash dance until you opponent messes up, or go in with a mediocre approach. That's not a bad playstyle for a character to have, but it's not what ZSS did.

Please read the thread just a little bit. The only person who complained in the slightest about ZSS being "bad" is shokio, but his main problem still isn't that. Everyone who wants her changed wants the change because they don't enjoy playing the new ZSS as much. I don't think anyone here considers her really bad. Even more, others and myself have stated that we'd rather play a low tier 3.02 style ZSS than a high tier 3.5 ZSS.

IMHO, most character forums are kinda whiny in general. Like, the mario forums convinced themselves mario was bad in 3.0 for a while. Samus forums are pretty bad too. However, ZSS forums has always been better overall. If they just nerfed dash cancel paralyzer and kept her old grab, there would still have been complaints, sure, but here's where the difference would be. The established and competitive ZSS mains would have come in and told complainers to get over the nerfs, and that's she's still fine. That's mostly how it is in the other forums, with some slight exceptions. However, pretty much every single ZSS veteran is strongly against the design philosophy for the ZSS changes. None of the are complaining about not being able to win with her anymore, most of use aren't even dropping her (I did for a bit, but I decided not to). We're just doing our best to convince the PMDT that there were better ways to nerf her while keeping her character intact.

 

[SpiderMad]

Thanks for making a Zero Suit that I actually have fun using

Loved her before, love her more now. Not sure where you get the idea that I disliked her.

 

[Fortress]

Still never said I disliked her, I just don't think she's boring to use anymore, which can be said for pretty much the entire roster now. My main was braindead and boring in 3.02.

 

[SpiderMad]

Yeah it's called near synonymous statements, no one would have deciphered your view between the two lol.

Regardless of talking more about everything else, I just want to say I'm not sure how her throws were talked about to be at all bad; especially given how reasonable it is to get one.

@ Oro?! What we're the several things you tried? I thought I had read your 3.5 post but recall you never mentioning what the several things exactly where

 

[steelguttey]

doubt this will do much, but signing for 3.0

 

[Oro?!]

Being able to clank with Wolf's laser in 3.02 didn't stop him from stacking lasers, choking you out to the edge of the stage repeatedly, and punishing any attempt at swatting lasers. The clankability on 3.02 laser would not have stopped it from being potent. It would have had one more way to attempt to stop ZSS from lasering and controlling the entire stage for free, but it's not like you have disjoints or something to punish someone easily for trying to hit your laser.

@ Shokio all of your examples are severely flawed.

EX 1) attacking oos.
ZSS blaster has 9 frames of shield stun. If Fox, the character with the fastest jumpsquat and fastest nair, tried to attack oos, you would still have 17 frames to pressure before his attack comes out, meaning you hit him, hit his shield, or GRAB which is only 16 frames in 3.02. Doing a frame perfect shine out of shield makes ZSS able to have a whopping 13 frames still to be at complete advantage in neutral running around while your opponent is in shield stun/move startup. Charizard should never be able to jump OOS, grab OOS, or upB OOS after blocking the laser if your approach was correct.

EX 2) Jump to a platform.
Positional advantage is huge. It is even more prevalent if characters do not have insane ways to move around the stage or recover from anywhere if they do get hit from up there. With all of the nerfs to burst movement and recoveries in 3.5, the amount that ZSS gets off of positional advantage is absurd. Platforms are not safe when standing upB hits the top platform of Dreamland and Battlefield. Giving characters that can abuse that positional advantage as well as say ZSS or Marth a way to continually force your opponent to go to platform is potentially too strong.

EX 3) Jump and intercept.
Attacking ZSS in the startup of blaster is possibly the only actual counterplay it had at a 20 frame startup. However, it does not deal with the core problems of the dash cancel on blaster. The counterplay you listed becomes, don't let your opponent use this move. That is not very likely to happen in a competitive setting, especially on a move that is integral to a character's success. In the case of trying to read ZSS running in and approaching, and thus trying to stuff the approach by jumping over the laser, well that is a horrible idea. Let's use Denti as an example since you linked a video of him. Denti sees you laser, sees you dash cancel, and jumps to fair over the laser. Getting hit by that just means your approach is very predictable. All you would have to do is dash cancel, jump backwards, fire another laser, dash cancel, and suddenly Denti is either eating a laser and free approach or he has to shield a laser and deal with massive frame advantage. This is not counterplay. This is making a read against a move with no commitment where the answer to the "counterplay" is to just do the same scenario again until it works.

EX 4) Dodging.
If the only possible way to deal with Dash cancel is to put yourself into 30+ frames of lag and a free punish scenario against a character not committing to any option, then that sounds like a horrible option.

 

[Shokio]

Being able to clank with Wolf's laser in 3.02 didn't stop him from stacking lasers, choking you out to the edge of the stage repeatedly, and punishing any attempt at swatting lasers. The clankability on 3.02 laser would not have stopped it from being potent. It would have had one more way to attempt to stop ZSS from lasering and controlling the entire stage for free, but it's not like you have disjoints or something to punish someone easily for trying to hit your laser.

@ Shokio all of your examples are severely flawed.

EX 1) attacking oos.
ZSS blaster has 9 frames of shield stun. If Fox, the character with the fastest jumpsquat and fastest nair, tried to attack oos, you would still have 17 frames to pressure before his attack comes out, meaning you hit him, hit his shield, or GRAB which is only 16 frames in 3.02. Doing a frame perfect shine out of shield makes ZSS able to have a whopping 13 frames still to be at complete advantage in neutral running around while your opponent is in shield stun/move startup. Charizard should never be able to jump OOS, grab OOS, or upB OOS after blocking the laser if your approach was correct.

EX 2) Jump to a platform.
Positional advantage is huge. It is even more prevalent if characters do not have insane ways to move around the stage or recover from anywhere if they do get hit from up there. With all of the nerfs to burst movement and recoveries in 3.5, the amount that ZSS gets off of positional advantage is absurd. Platforms are not safe when standing upB hits the top platform of Dreamland and Battlefield. Giving characters that can abuse that positional advantage as well as say ZSS or Marth a way to continually force your opponent to go to platform is potentially too strong.

EX 3) Jump and intercept.
Attacking ZSS in the startup of blaster is possibly the only actual counterplay it had at a 20 frame startup. However, it does not deal with the core problems of the dash cancel on blaster. The counterplay you listed becomes, don't let your opponent use this move. That is not very likely to happen in a competitive setting, especially on a move that is integral to a character's success. In the case of trying to read ZSS running in and approaching, and thus trying to stuff the approach by jumping over the laser, well that is a horrible idea. Let's use Denti as an example since you linked a video of him. Denti sees you laser, sees you dash cancel, and jumps to fair over the laser. Getting hit by that just means your approach is very predictable. All you would have to do is dash cancel, jump backwards, fire another laser, dash cancel, and suddenly Denti is either eating a laser and free approach or he has to shield a laser and deal with massive frame advantage. This is not counterplay. This is making a read against a move with no commitment where the answer to the "counterplay" is to just do the same scenario again until it works.

EX 4) Dodging.
If the only possible way to deal with Dash cancel is to put yourself into 30+ frames of lag and a free punish scenario against a character not committing to any option, then that sounds like a horrible option.

1) I'm assuming there's no way to adjust the amount of shield-stun the laser does? And looking back at that footage, I was trying to sprint through him to get a quick pivot grab in order to try to screw with his DI. I'm guessing that's why it worked, though, I don't know why Oracle would chose to do that in the first place. Surely he knew about the frame situation you just described?

2) I honestly don't see a problem with this. Many projectiles are used to control the position of your opponent. I understand ZSS gets more off of enemies being above her than most characters do, but I see nothing wrong with putting your opponent in a position in which you can capitalize on the strength of your character. I see it as a equivalent of a character with great edge-guard capabilities throwing someone off-stage to capitalize on their strong off-stage game.

3) In that situation, Denti could expect me to delay my approach with a quick backward jump into another laser and just counter for that adjustment as well. It would be about the opponent reading what your plan is after you perform the dash cancel. And if a character has a momentum-cancelling move, they could float over the 2nd laser. I will say, though, that the DC happens too quickly for most people to consistently read what you're actually doing. So I can see how this could be too strong in this regard. The mix-ups for such a easily performed mechanic are too strong, right? I can agree with that.

4) It wasn't the only possible way though, which is the point I was making. I was saying there's several ways to combat the laser, rolling toward them (which was actually very effective cause you could dodge out of a pivot grab's range) was just one of them. Now, rolling would be unsafe and punishable IF the ZSS sprints forward and commits to nothing, but 99% of the time a ZSS would go for a dash grab or whatever other move, which if performed would give the character rolling enough time to finish their roll.

Overall, I'm going to take your word for it though. It really sounds like something I'd have to play to fully understand how strong it was in the 3.5 environment, so I won't (can't) tell you that you're wrong/you didn't try everything. I really wish I could've gotten my hands on some of the ZSS revisions so I could've seen first-hand how things played out.

 

[ph00tbag]

You haven't addressed Shokio's point, Oro!?. Shokio introduced the yomi relationships that Paralyzer opens up, and demonstrated the way they cycle, primarily because 3.02 grab was slow enough ZSS had to have a pretty good idea what her opponent was going to do before she input the grab. I'll try to explain the cycle a bit more explicitly, though.

ZSS grabbing out of Paralyzer beats opponent shielding or attacking.

Opponent dodging or jumping beats ZSS grabbing.

ZSS doing nothing beats opponent dodging; ZSS attacking beats opponent jumping.

Opponent attacking or moving forward oos beats ZSS doing nothing*; opponent shielding beats ZSS attacking.

(*Technically, ZSS giving up space beats opponent attacking, but loses to opponent moving forward, while ZSS attacking beats opponent moving forward. ZSS also risks a trade with an opponent that attacks with good timing reads.)

This accounts for the options Shokio listed (except jumping over/platform use, which is a punish and not a read), and the options you listed, and it's all a closed loop. There is nothing ZSS can do to override the RPS of the situation.

Now what of several of the suggested balance changes, and how they impact the game?

--Lower laser block stun: Tightens frame traps, giving opponents more leeway to manipulate set-up timings, adding power to their end of the RPS.
--Later dash cancel: Introduces more punish window, tightens frame traps, giving opponents more leeway to manipulate set-up timings, adding power to their end of the RPS.
--Removal of dash cancel dash dance: Forces forward movement (except in case of wavedash, which has start-up), opening up punish window. Adds inherent cost to dash cancel, and to giving up space after cancel.
--Clanking: Adds weight to opponent attack option by removing block or trade risk. Forces baits, adds weight to shielding for ZSS, which wasn't really necessary in her game beforehand. This gives opponent grab as an option.
--Faster Laser: Tightens frame traps, giving opponents more leeway to manipulate set-up timings, adding power to their end of the RPS.
--Removal of dash cancel: Erases this entire interaction from the game.

I simply can't imagine that, of all the available tools for balancing shown above, the only one deemed viable in the interest of promoting interaction was the one most destructive to interaction.

 

[Oracle]

Having counterplay doesnt matter if it isnt feasible. "Guys mewtwo isnt broken just read the teleport!"

I thought the logic behind removing the dash cancel was that having a real grab would do more for zero suit than any other reasonable buff, but dash cancel blaster with normal grab is hideously broken so it had to go. Also sorry shokio you dont get to talk trash till you dont lose to my wolf while im commentating my own match. Oro can talk **** since he beat me lmao

 

[Oro?!]

Still love you bae.

 

[Player-3]

can we change her alt skins to not be like really clunky and awkward in game

that'd be the biggest buff imo, straight hair best hair but not when it makes me feel like im playing a model from the n64

 

[SpiderMad]

can we change her alt skins to not be like really clunky and awkward in game

that'd be the biggest buff imo, straight hair best hair but not when it makes me feel like im playing a model from the n64

Shh, they were about to get somewhere. But wait which ones are you referring to?

 

[Kally Wally]

As long as there's still at least one skin which doesn't have boobsocks, I really don't care what the hair looks like.

 

[ph00tbag]

I thought the logic behind removing the dash cancel was that having a real grab would do more for zero suit than any other reasonable buff, but dash cancel blaster with normal grab is hideously broken so it had to go.

But that buff was at the cost of her entire playstyle. Keep up, man; this was in the reading.

 

[Shokio]

Having counterplay doesnt matter if it isnt feasible. "Guys mewtwo isnt broken just read the teleport!"

I thought the logic behind removing the dash cancel was that having a real grab would do more for zero suit than any other reasonable buff, but dash cancel blaster with normal grab is hideously broken so it had to go. Also sorry shokio you dont get to talk trash till you dont lose to my wolf while im commentating my own match. Oro can talk **** since he beat me lmao

Hey, its not trash talk if I didnt talk about you or your skill.

And in my absolutely legitimate defense, your commentary distracted me more than it did yourself xD. Come now Rub.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yo, I don't have much to contribute as I'm not a ZSS main, but as a Bowser main, I can say that her 3.02 design made that matchup very nearly unwinnable for Bowser - and the current Bowser vs ZSS matchup seems a lot more dynamic and fun for both sides, instead of a one-sided dash cancel paralyzer assault on Bowser's unmentionables.

I'm skeptical that it would have been possible to preserve her old playstyle without retaining an absurdly polarized matchup spread. Maybe it'd be possible (hell, maybe it's been presented in this thread - I haven't read the whole thing), but I don't see how. A fast, campy character with the tools she had (the DC blaster, tether grab, side b into 0-death combos) seems pretty solidly in line with exactly the kinds of things the PMDT explicitly aimed to scrap from 3.5, and for good reason.

It's not fun to play against.

Anyway, possible wavelanding out of the blaster seems like a potentially interesting change, and the local ZSS players have expressed happiness that she can maneuver more aerially while using the blaster, along with the new grab.