Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus

[Broasty]

I get the impression you guys don't like feedback from players of other mains...but Luigi vs. ZSS in 3.02 was one of the most ******** matchups I've ever seen.

Luigi is forced to stay on ground due to lack of aerial mobility and range, as such he's forced to approach on ground. Now consider this:

Blaster has the range to cover most of the stage and CANNOT BE CLANKED.

Luigi literally has 1 option to handle the situation of being in range of the blaster (long range btw) while on ground (which if he isn't, he's screwed due to lack of aerial attack range and mobility), and that option is a Power Shield. Now I don't know about you guys, but having to pull off a Power shield every time ZSS shoots a blaster was REALLY hard. And don't even try to tell me there was another way around it, I spent a whole year looking into that since ZSS players consistently took me down in tourneys.

Unique play style or not, your opponents are players too. It matters if your character is polarizing because well, PMDT wants to create a balanced game where every character is viable.

3.5 just came out, give it a chance. ZSS may still turn out to be home to a unique playstyle...just not one someone has discovered yet. Your only limitation to knowing that said playstyle is the incentive your character community has towards pushing the envelope.

 

[TreK]

So, Leffen and Mahie placed 1st and 4th respectively at the tournament I held yesterday
Mahie is entirely against going back to the old ZSS and thinks you're all crazy (I told him about this thread, he may or may not come and vote on the opposite petition)
Leffen still thinks PM is trash but he seemed pretty happy with the new ZSS anyway.

Take that as you will.
I personally lost to Mahie and his playstyle hasn't changed much, if not for the fact that it's not a close game between us anymore it really felt like the classic TreK vs Mahie matches I'm used to. He's actually gotten more effective thanks to 3.5, not less effective.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Blaster has the range to cover most of the stage and CANNOT BE CLANKED.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone really expects transcendent laser to return and it's certainly not part of the package I'm personally pushing for. That particular property wasn't really integral to her playstyle, it's an understandable change, and I'm pretty sure there were rumblings that the transcendent properties were going away long before 3.5 actually arrived.

There was a suggestion not too long ago where the projectile would retain its current speed, but have its range drastically reduced. If the original startup (20 frames) and dash cancel were restored alongside the aforementioned changes, would you find that reasonable?

 

[TimeSmash]

You know what is a nice but unrealistic compromise? Having ZSS being able to switch grabs using side taunt, much like her Samus counterpart can change her Smashes. Of course, you'd have to make her throws a little worse, but I haven't seen how nerfed they are yet in 3.5

 

[Broasty]

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone really expects transcendent laser to return and it's certainly not part of the package I'm personally pushing for. That particular property wasn't really integral to her playstyle, it's an understandable change, and I'm pretty sure there were rumblings that the transcendent properties were going away long before 3.5 actually arrived.

There was a suggestion not too long ago where the projectile would retain its current speed, but have its range drastically reduced. If the original startup (20 frames) and dash cancel were restored alongside the aforementioned changes, would you find that reasonable?

Absolutely. That would make it wiff punishable or suspectable to shield slide followups.

 

[Beorn]

3.5 Zamus

I don't think I need to explain myself considering the great points others have already made.
Almost everyone lost character playstyles and attributes we loved. We all need to get over it.

 

[ph00tbag]

sit down

Just so we're clear on this, that was the only thing Foo has ever said in this thread about Ganon, everything else was a very accurate refutation of the only intelligible thing you've said in this thread.

I'm the one who called you out for biased crying. I don't know how you could confuse me with Foo, but then you haven't demonstrated a great capacity for critical thought in this thread. FYI, I was trolling, because the only explanation I can come up with for why you continue to abase yourself in this thread is that you're trying to troll as well. I'm only saying this because I don't really think Foo deserves to be treated like **** for something he didn't do.

Luigi literally has 1 option to handle the situation of being in range of the blaster (long range btw) while on ground (which if he isn't, he's screwed due to lack of aerial attack range and mobility), and that option is a Power Shield. Now I don't know about you guys, but having to pull off a Power shield every time ZSS shoots a blaster was REALLY hard. And don't even try to tell me there was another way around it, I spent a whole year looking into that since ZSS players consistently took me down in tourneys.

Unique play style or not, your opponents are players too. It matters if your character is polarizing because well, PMDT wants to create a balanced game where every character is viable.

To say nothing of the fact that Falco's blaster is more spammable and has the added benefit of multiple possible heights, and doesn't require him to run towards his opponent to be canceled, and give Falco full mobility, and goes full screen, and cannot clank, and despite all this, no one seriously calls for it to be changed. The serious discussion just comes down to, "learn to powershield." Ignoring all that, let's argue that a less broken move is more polarizing. I just want to throw that out there.

Thing is, though, no one here is arguing that Paralyzer didn't have problems. The implementation was definitely lazy, and made ZSS more than a chore to handle for a large portion of the cast, but there's a pretty broad swath of balance options between what was there, and the almost completely useless projectile we have now. There weren't just one or two minor nerfs. The dash cancel was removed entirely, making it difficult to convert off of a hit even without other changes, and made it worthless against shields. Then, it was sped up, meaning it's farther away by the time ZSS can move again, and she can't use it to protect her from whiff punishes, or hold valuable positions without having to be there. Finally, the clank was removed, meaning it can be defeated with utter safety in the few situations where it could still control space. Now, against the characters that Paralyzer barely contained, like Spacies and Falcon, ZSS has no way to keep them from engaging, and she never had a solid way to prevent them from continuing their pressure once they had engaged. The point was to keep them out.

Any one of these nerfs in isolation could have drastically limited the utility of Paralyzer, and possibly even been acceptable. (I personally think that if removing polarization was a goal, a smaller cancel window further back in the cooldown plus maybe a distance nerf would have been more than enough.)

Also, Luigi can totally crawl under Paralyzer.

So, Leffen and Mahie placed 1st and 4th respectively at the tournament I held yesterday
Mahie is entirely against going back to the old ZSS and thinks you're all crazy (I told him about this thread, he may or may not come and vote on the opposite petition)
Leffen still thinks PM is trash but he seemed pretty happy with the new ZSS anyway.

Take that as you will.
I personally lost to Mahie and his playstyle hasn't changed much, if not for the fact that it's not a close game between us anymore it really felt like the classic TreK vs Mahie matches I'm used to. He's actually gotten more effective thanks to 3.5, not less effective.

I don't see what any of this has to do with the fact that ZSS is a less unique and interesting character, now. She may very well be good--in the context of everyone being nerfed, she may be among the best. If Mahie can't recognize that he's winning with a completely different character, then maybe he's the crazy one.

 

[Broasty]

Also, Luigi can totally crawl under Paralyzer.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Absolutely. That would make it wiff punishable or suspectable to shield slide followups.

Awesome Thanks for the feedback.

I should have some time on my hands in the next couple of days thanks to the holiday, so I'm going to try my hand at a proof of concept mod demonstrating the idea. We'll see how that goes, I've never tried to make a Brawl mod before I'll post it here if everything works out.

 

[Shokio]

I've been playing ZSS ever since she got introduced to PM, and my vote goes for 3.5, contrary to popular opinion. Despite losing her quirks, she plays a lot more consistently now, and I feel that her redesign promotes balance in context to the entire cast. I find it pretty unbelievable that people think she's so drastically changed that they're willing to abandon her, she's roughly 80% the same character. It's like knowing how to ride a bike all your life and then switching to a fixie: awkward at first, until you get experienced and realize the benefits.

"she plays a lot more consistently now, and I feel that her redesign promotes balance in context to the entire cast."

Care to elaborate? It seems everyone who likes 3.5 ZSS has failed to explain what exactly it is about her, it's mostly just been vague comments, such as the one quoted above. Let's get some specifics folks.

Do you like the new throw angles and the endlag added onto them, for instance?

 

[Foo]

I'd like to clarify that even I think transcendent laser was stupid and didn't need to be in the game. I, and I think at least most other 3.0 voters are totally ok with laser being clankable. I'm not sure why they were even transcendent in the first place.

@Phaiyte Saying "I imagine that's why you feel this way." is a far cry from "claiming that you only believed this thread was ******** because you "mained Ganon" I suggested that you maining ganon may be a cause for your bias. I didn't say "Whatever, you're just made 'cause ZSS wrecks Ganon."

 

[JANKX]

"she plays a lot more consistently now, and I feel that her redesign promotes balance in context to the entire cast."

Care to elaborate? It seems everyone who likes 3.5 ZSS has failed to explain what exactly it is about her, it's mostly just been vague comments, such as the one quoted above. Let's get some specifics folks.

Do you like the new throw angles and the endlag added onto them, for instance?

Consistency has much to do with the fact that her new grab is much safer and less punishable on whiff. Her speed and dash dance are so great that I don't have too many difficulties getting an initial grab. You can also obtain grabs off of jab, dtilt, SHFFL nair or the first hit of SHFFL fair (straight-ahead or crossed-up), but obviously dependent on weight-classes, percents, and DI. Uthrow and dthrow can chaingrab within small percent windows that vary on a character basis and DI reads. Mixing up your opponent's DI is possible with bthrow since all other throws send the opponent away from her. And of course, nothing beats using fthrow or bthrow to setup your opponent for a fair or bair kill at the edge (because grabs are so easy now, her edge game got considerably buffed).

As far as throw angles and endlag go, I'm satisfied with how it seems fairly balanced in context with the rest of her tools. The old throws would obviously be OP if tied to the new standard grab, so it had to be changed in context. Regarding the previous design, I disliked having so many guaranteed followups from throws, because I knew it wasn't fun for my opponents, and it stopped being fun for me after auto-piloting so many sloppy nair strings. I think the throws will eventually be slightly tweaked, if not for player dissatisfaction, then for balance/playstyle considerations. Although I think throws are pretty fine as they are now, since they were designed to intentionally weak, I can't imagine future changes making them any worst.

I feel that the paralyzer gun works much better now. It used to be too slow, predictable, easily powershielded, and unsatisfying because the dash cancel let you be really sloppy about it. The decreased startup speed and longer travel distance make it feel more potent, despite the loss of dash cancel and the fact that is now clankable. If people think it's much weaker, they're probably charging it on the ground unsafely in a predictable manner. The new gun is highly effective if you space and time it well by reading your opponent, and only spamming it when you're absolutely safe. You can drift laterally and fast-fall while charging in the air, which to me is more useful than the dash cancel because it lets you control your spacing while charging.

I like to look at PM 3.5 as the "git gud" patch. The redesigns caused many characters to lose burst-mobility options which were discovered to be polarizing. I imagine that the loss of ZSS's dash cancel paralyzer and jump cancel divekick now helps slower characters such as Bowser and Ganondorf keep up with her speed. Since these moves now require commitment, it promotes smarter play, as well as more honest interactions between individual players rather than characters that are rife with gimmicks. Optimal balance has yet to be seen, since the metagame is still fresh with the new release, but I can see that the dev team has sewn the seeds that will make PM the most balanced version of Smash there has ever been.

To really sum up what I like about 3.5 ZSS, it's that the "imposed limitations" of the redesign make me feel like I'm more in control of the character, as well as the outcome of the match. In her previous iteration, DCP, dsmash, nair and bair were all too easy to spam and obtain good results. Now that the obvious move choices are less obvious, I see that every single one of her moves has a unique utility, and because of this, she feels like a more dynamic character that can suit a lot of different playstyles. And the fact that her ability to make followups are dependent on a variety of factors that constantly change, I see her as a poster-child for PM's project goal, especially point #7:

The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

 

[Shokio]

Consistency has much to do with the fact that her new grab is much safer and less punishable on whiff. Her speed and dash dance are so great that I don't have too many difficulties getting an initial grab. You can also obtain grabs off of jab, dtilt, SHFFL nair or the first hit of SHFFL fair (straight-ahead or crossed-up), but obviously dependent on weight-classes, percents, and DI. Uthrow and dthrow can chaingrab within small percent windows that vary on a character basis and DI reads. Mixing up your opponent's DI is possible with bthrow since all other throws send the opponent away from her. And of course, nothing beats using fthrow or bthrow to setup your opponent for a fair or bair kill at the edge (because grabs are so easy now, her edge game got considerably buffed).

As far as throw angles and endlag go, I'm satisfied with how it seems fairly balanced in context with the rest of her tools. The old throws would obviously be OP if tied to the new standard grab, so it had to be changed in context. Regarding the previous design, I disliked having so many guaranteed followups from throws, because I knew it wasn't fun for my opponents, and it stopped being fun for me after auto-piloting so many sloppy nair strings. I think the throws will eventually be slightly tweaked, if not for player dissatisfaction, then for balance/playstyle considerations. Although I think throws are pretty fine as they are now, since they were designed to intentionally weak, I can't imagine future changes making them any worst.

I feel that the paralyzer gun works much better now. It used to be too slow, predictable, easily powershielded, and unsatisfying because the dash cancel let you be really sloppy about it. The decreased startup speed and longer travel distance make it feel more potent, despite the loss of dash cancel and the fact that is now clankable. If people think it's much weaker, they're probably charging it on the ground unsafely in a predictable manner. The new gun is highly effective if you space and time it well by reading your opponent, and only spamming it when you're absolutely safe. You can drift laterally and fast-fall while charging in the air, which to me is more useful than the dash cancel because it lets you control your spacing while charging.

I like to look at PM 3.5 as the "git gud" patch. The redesigns caused many characters to lose burst-mobility options which were discovered to be polarizing. I imagine that the loss of ZSS's dash cancel paralyzer and jump cancel divekick now helps slower characters such as Bowser and Ganondorf keep up with her speed. Since these moves now require commitment, it promotes smarter play, as well as more honest interactions between individual players rather than characters that are rife with gimmicks. Optimal balance has yet to be seen, since the metagame is still fresh with the new release, but I can see that the dev team has sewn the seeds that will make PM the most balanced version of Smash there has ever been.

To really sum up what I like about 3.5 ZSS, it's that the "imposed limitations" of the redesign make me feel like I'm more in control of the character, as well as the outcome of the match. In her previous iteration, DCP, dsmash, nair and bair were all too easy to spam and obtain good results. Now that the obvious move choices are less obvious, I see that every single one of her moves has a unique utility, and because of this, she feels like a more dynamic character that can suit a lot of different playstyles. And the fact that her ability to make followups are dependent on a variety of factors that constantly change, I see her as a poster-child for PM's project goal, especially point #7:

Thanks for the clarification.

But on who did she have guaranteed follow-ups on, outside of the characters (like fast-fallers) that EVERYONE had guaranteed follow-ups on? I don't think anyone truly remembers ZSS's throws......they were good, but they were nothing like a Mario orLink down throw. If her throw game was so OP like you and others in this thread make it out to be, then why was literally NOBODY complaining about ZSS's throws in 3.0?

The new gun is highly effective if you space and time it well by reading your opponent, and only spamming it when you're absolutely safe.

Projectiles are NOT something you should have to READ your opponent for though. Listen to what you just said. Do you have to read for Falco lasers? Mario Fire Balls? Wolf Lasers? PK Freeze? No. Projectiles are a tool you can throw out in the neutral game in order to pressure your opponent or eliminate options. The fact that you just said that you have to get a READ for the projectile to be good, shows just how truly weak it has become.

I understand fully what you're saying, but what you're saying would be legit IF everyone else on the roster followed the same route that was taken with ZSS, but they haven't. ZSS has been singled-out, seemingly designed on a whole different mindset than the rest of the cast. I'm glad you quoted what the PMDT had said:

The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game

^The problem is, is that only ZSS is adhering to that rule. Of course it's the case with the likes of Peach and Zelda and whatnot, because they've never been designed to be combo heavy, so those kinds of characters aside; it's still insanely easy to get a 5-6 combo with ANY character. Not to mention, in 3.0, most ZSS combos were 3-4 hits anyway, so she was already closer to that goal in 3.0 then most characters were.

It always comes back around to this, what I've been saying this whole time: Nobody has been given the ZSS treatment, THAT is the problem here. Everyone can still do what they did in 3.0, just in a toned-down extent. But ZSS on the other hand has straight had things REMOVED from here. Why wasn't the rest of the roster given poop grabs in order to promote player skill? Why didn't they get random increases of endlag on throws?

Mario can still Down-Throw -> Fair someone at 100%. Link can down-throw into kill all the way up to 200%. Olimar can Fair at almost any percent with a Blue or White Pikmin. Why were everyone else's DI mixups left intact? All these ZSS changes would be fine IF the Dev Team would've just applied the same rules and standards to the rest of the roster, but they didn't.

 

[Foo]

@ JANKX You keep mentioning characters getting "redesigns" to make them harder to play, but... WHERE ELSE DID THIS HAPPEN? Wait, nevermind, I forgot the part where they removed ike's side b, sonic's down-b, pikachu's quick-attack cancel, Rob's up and side-b, as well as lucario down-b.

Now, you may be thinking, "Wait a minute, almost all of those things got nerfed too!" and you'd be completely right. However, none of them got removed or neutered. Just toned down. On some of your points, I agree. In this patch, 3.0 blaster would be too good. It should absolutely be clankable and faster and/or cancel later. You're also absolutely that nair was probably too brainless of a combo tool for 3.0. However, it should have been toned down. Instead, they halved the range and the baseknockback to prevent it from comboing at all. It's almost inherently inferior to upair now.

I've said it once, I'll say it many more times. We are fine with nerfs. There was stuff that needed to be tone down to keep her from being OP this patch. That doesn't excuse the ham-handed balance approach they took with her. They flat out removed some of her most signature features to "better fit her character" and to "fit design" goals, even though it was clear neither was done. If they really wanted to remove comboing with the same move repeatedly, or hitting brainless strings of more than a few moves, half the cast would have been hit much harder than they did. Particularly Roy, Wolf, Marth, Falco, etc.

However, pretty much only ZSS got this change.

 

[JANKX]

@ Shokio , I agree that other characters weren't nerfed as hard as they should have. Mario could have used more cooldown on fireball, and perhaps a smaller grabbox to prevent his kill setup, and I always felt that Link's tether grab came out way too fast or at least could have used more cooldown. Olimar... I'm really not sure what to do with him since he wasn't high tier and his recovery is awful.

@ Foo , I understand that nerfs weren't as far-reaching to many of the characters, but I'm satisfied with the changes to ZSS because I see buffs and nerfs that promote balance, I'm adjusting to her changes the more I play with her, and I generally have a much more fun now because I have to be more methodical and adaptive. My Melee main is Young Link, who when played smart, fared incredibly well in most matchups outside the top of the top tier, which I used Marth as a secondary to cover bad matchups. In Smash 4, my favorite character so far is Mega Man, who is not seemingly buff, but really matches my playstyle, and I've done better with him than anybody else. A person who mains low/mid-tiers is really someone who plays characters not because they'll win, but because they are incredibly fun to play as. ZSS, 3.02 or 3.5, is really no exception. You citing how Marth, Roy and spacies were hardly changed is insignificant, as I think they're all well-designed characters with clear strengths and weaknesses, and redesigning them is simply out of the question, 'cause Melee. It's not called Project Melee anymore, but Melee is still a core piece upon which PM is designed. Those characters have seen subtle nerfs with each release, and they're not even significantly overpowered compared to the rest of the cast. The greater offenders to me were Mario, Link, Diddy Kong, Lucas, Pit and Mewtwo, and they all received subtle nerfs.

Regarding ZSS, if she's closer to being a well-designed character in 3.5 than most of the other cast, then we're in better luck for playing as her now, since changes to other characters will surely follow suit in different ways to approach the same ideal. Also, I don't feel so bad for ZSS if her combos are less than what they used to be, because her dive kick is now a kill move, kill setups at the edge are easier, and the damage of many of her attacks were slightly buffed to compensate for the lack of combos.

As for other characters that are still combo crazy, if they don't redesign their playstyles, they most certainly will at least tweak damage outputs and knockback values. For 3.5, it looks like the PMDT focused on as many redesigns as they could that would promote better balance in the long run, and then distributed subtle nerfs/buffs across the cast so as not to disturb much of the balance that already existed. I can name 3 solid mid-tiers from 3.02 that received fairly drastic changes coming into 3.5, and I see them all as fairly smart changes in context of the entire cast. I haven't been able to examine many other characters, but so far so good.

1. Zero Suit Samus
   • Paralyzer and grabs/throws were redone to both increase the effectiveness of her kit in unfavorable matches such as Fox, and projectiles were made clankable which is inline with reducing the effectiveness of projectiles throughout the entire cast.
   • Burst-mobility options toned down so that slower characters could stand a fighting chance.
   • Kill options enhanced thanks to redesigned standard grab and buffed knockback to Dive Kick.
   • Core kit largely unchanged, but now requires more precision, adaptability, and matchup knowledge to be played effectively.
2. Squirtle
   • Side-B Withdraw can no longer turnaround, so he loses stage control and free tech-chases at a single button-press. The entire world is happy with this, except for scrubs who depended on it.
   • Mobility received significant, yet subtle buffs thanks to the new landing detection and shorter short-hop.
   • Recovery is a lot safer since you can angle the trajectory, moves much faster, and is easier to sweetspot.
   • Core kit largely unchanged, but now requires more precision and can no longer fallback on Withdraw spam.
3. Zelda
   • Din's Fire enabled too much stage control, and gave her too much advantage against large and slow characters, so it was redesigned to control space in a more linear fashion, as well as being more of a direct attack.
   • Smaller and faster characters generally had favorable matchups against her, so her mobility was increased, as well as a bunch of other tweaks (she's literally a brand new character now).
   • Now requires more skill, aggression and precision to use, especially since the sweetspots on her strong aerials are smaller and Teleport cancels can be tricky to land without lag, but the new Din's Fire is really useful and incredibly fun.

Right now, it's a bit of a waiting game until we can possibly weigh the effects of the current changes, and 3.5 has quite enough bugs that 3.6 should roll out fairly soon with bugfixes, balancing tweaks, and possible redesigns. I understand that 3.5 is not yet the ideal, but my feeling so far is that it always keeps getting closer. PM won't be close to being frozen until it hits at least the 4.0 mark, so we just gotta keep playing until we find things that break. Let's not also forget that the new Debug Mode is a significant tool for analysis that should speed up identifying more rough spots.

I think one of the best parts of PM is that with characters changing in each release, along with the tendency for players to switch mains with each update, there are a few positive byproducts of these shenanigans:

1. PM players are highly adaptable to change and have likely played a larger variety of characters than any installment of Smash.
2. Because PM players have experience with many characters, we have a fairly decent grasp of weighing a variety of matchups, even despite a young and ever-changing meta.
3. With the exception of some extreme redesigns, most of the characters have remained similar enough to previous iterations that we can efficiently interpolate past and present data in order to get closer to the goal of having narrow tier gaps.

I feel really bad that a lot of you are not digging the new changes. If you should switch characters, then so be it; I for one will also explore other characters just for fun. But for me, I still perform better with ZSS than any other character, and I still think she's incredibly fun. Before 3.5 was released and they started updating the character pages, I read that they removed DCP which I thought was an error. When I finally got to play the game with friends, the first thing they noticed was, "Dang, your gun moves so fast, why did your character get buffed?" I adapted to the Paralyzer change fairly quickly, because I never threw it out without expecting that it would safely hit. The grab distance change threw me off the most, until I kept telling myself, "Think like you're playing as Falcon or Marth, because the tether is gone." They were the ones mostly complaining about the Squirtle changes, Zelda changes, and I just kept telling them that our characters changed, adjustments need to be made. It wasn't really a big problem since we play Melee characters that are pretty much frozen outside of minor tweaks, and as we keep playing 3.5, we're blown away with the new things we discover, and how Bowser and Ganondorf are mad good!

Sorry for the long post, "Please, understand."

 

[Stryker]

**snip**
Sorry for the long post, "Please, understand."[/USER]

While I'm sure others are going to give you a significantly more concise version I'll try to give you a quick bit of perspective

Squirtle
Literally any squirtle worth a grain of salt will tell you that the side b changes don't change the core playstyle of anyone who is good at the character.
No seriously, go look at the squirtle boards. I'll wait...
It's because decent squirtles knew that withdraw turnaround wasn't safe enough for them to use consitently, and squirtle has many other movement options that defined his game play i.e. shellshifting and hydro-things

What?? Withdraw was not a cool trick. Withdraw was the damn reason that every time I go on netplay, people whine about me playing Squirtle. It's why people make fun of us or think we play an easy character. PMDT removed it because it's not a good move and everyone used it cause it's a noobish move, and didn't reflect how Squirtle should be played. The nerfs for withdraw don't affect high level Squirtles, because using it in one direction for a tech chase was the only safe way to use it, and not being able to turn around doesn't change that.

This was not a playstyle change. This was them removing a toxic spammable part of the move that wasn't used as a part of his high level core identity only affect low level players that were playing badly.

Zelda
Zelda players seem split, but allow me to put this forward.
Zelda's din's fire was changed, yes. And yes, this does changer her core playstyle.
However, Zelda got a BRAND NEW SPARKLY REPLACEMENT MECHANIC. A neat new side b with plently of interesting control and spacing options. Something cool for zelda players to explore.

What did ZSS get? Aside from losing a bunch of stuff. we got a new grab. "AWW COOL, A NEW GRAB, I CAN'T WAIT TO ENJOY THIS INTERESTING CHANGE MADE TO MY CHARACTER" we all thought excitedly when first trying out 3.5 ZSS. And then we all became more and more heartbroken when we realized the only change made to our character did not have an interesting options.
Zelda got her interesting toy taken away, yes, but she got a new one to play with.
Zss got most of her toys taken away, and was given toys that were non functional

Also, I love the people who are like "Oh just wait and see and I'm sure it will totally get better." You sound like the PMDT hired you to do their PR.

Thanks for the clarification.
It always comes back around to this, what I've been saying this whole time: Nobody has been given the ZSS treatment, THAT is the problem here. Everyone can still do what they did in 3.0, just in a toned-down extent. But ZSS on the other hand has straight had things REMOVED from here. Why wasn't the rest of the roster given poop grabs in order to promote player skill? Why didn't they get random increases of endlag on throws?

It's back to this. Zelda was given a replacement technique, and Squirt had an option removed that didn't actually have an impact on his placestyle.
ZSS had things taken destroyed that should have only been toned down (the same way every other character was toned down) in the first place.[/user]

 

[JANKX]

But on who did she have guaranteed follow-ups on, outside of the characters (like fast-fallers) that EVERYONE had guaranteed follow-ups on? I don't think anyone truly remembers ZSS's throws......they were good, but they were nothing like a Mario orLink down throw. If her throw game was so OP like you and others in this thread make it out to be, then why was literally NOBODY complaining about ZSS's throws in 3.0?

The funny thing is that I don't think anybody complained that much about ZSS in the first place, and for a mid-tier, I expected her to remain fairly unchanged. But I have received complaints in my circles for having two moves that stunned and immediately led to followups. So I believe the PMDT started nerfing Paralyzer while also wanting to make it more useful, and adjusted her grabs with respect to those changes. Also consider 3.5 added key system-wide changes and cast-wide nerfs/redesigns, and honestly I think a handful of characters will receive the same treatment as ZSS.

Projectiles are NOT something you should have to READ your opponent for though. Listen to what you just said. Do you have to read for Falco lasers? Mario Fire Balls? Wolf Lasers? PK Freeze? No. Projectiles are a tool you can throw out in the neutral game in order to pressure your opponent or eliminate options. The fact that you just said that you have to get a READ for the projectile to be good, shows just how truly weak it has become.

Charged shot requires a read, but uncharged shot can be spammed. A move like Falcon Punch requires a read in a similar manner, because it has a long startup. Charged shot can also be started in the air while covering a great distance, so that puts it about even PK projectiles. Uncharged shot is roughly equivalent to a laser or fireball. Two for the price of one!

@ JANKX You keep mentioning characters getting "redesigns" to make them harder to play, but... WHERE ELSE DID THIS HAPPEN? Wait, nevermind, I forgot the part where they removed ike's side b, sonic's down-b, pikachu's quick-attack cancel, Rob's up and side-b, as well as lucario down-b.

Peeps say Ike got nerfed, but he seems relatively the same. I'm like "Whatevs, just respect his range and punish his whiffs." Once more people use Rob, we can see if he needs to be adjusted, but a lot of people are speculating he's top tier. Same with Lucario... I feel that he's so underused because he's so unique/complex, but if maximized he could wipe the floor with anybody. I already possess some Rob fundamentals, although I'm really interested in dedicating time to learn Lucario this time around. If people here are interested in finding a new main or just learning a new character, I'd highly recommend choosing from a list of unpopular characters, since their meta needs to advance in order to bring balance to the tiers: http://www.eventhubs.com/stats/projectm/

Now, you may be thinking, "Wait a minute, almost all of those things got nerfed too!" and you'd be completely right. However, none of them got removed or neutered. Just toned down. On some of your points, I agree. In this patch, 3.0 blaster would be too good. It should absolutely be clankable and faster and/or cancel later. You're also absolutely that nair was probably too brainless of a combo tool for 3.0. However, it should have been toned down. Instead, they halved the range and the baseknockback to prevent it from comboing at all. It's almost inherently inferior to upair now.

Initially, I was in the same boat as you, hungering we could revert the changes to ZSS, and just nerf her in a fair manner. But then I played Smash 4, and I absolutely hate her in that iteration. 3.5 still retains the core of what made her a fun character for me.

Also, I love the people who are like "Oh just wait and see and I'm sure it will totally get better." You sound like the PMDT hired you to do their PR.

LOL, it's funny that you say that. When this thread first appeared, I was going to immediately cast my vote for 3.02 ZSS. But then I played 3.5 more and just adapted, as I see the benefits/appeal of both designs (I was initially proposing a taunt-toggle option to modify her moveset aka OG Samus so that we could have the best of both worlds).

So I decided to join this thread as the lone wolf who plays devil's advocate, because I want to encourage people to really play the 3.5 iteration more before developing a solid opinion, so that we can more optimally weigh the differences and rationally seek a compromise. I also just enjoy analyzing the PMDT's overall design choices, and if it sounds like I'm PR, I'm really just trying to read their minds. None of the dev team has been really active here, so I felt that a pro-3.5 voice was needed to fill that gap.

I get you with the whole Squirtle meta not really changing at all, and that Zelda has a shiny new tool. It seems like we got scraps compared some characters, which is why I highly advocate a taunt-toggle option to restore some of her original flavor. But I don't think the new design is rubbish, and even Leffen, a guy who's not even a big fan of PM, says that ZSS improved with all the changes.

So what's the productive thing to do now? Dev team isn't being full out responsive, but in one post in another thread, I read that they admitted that they may have gone a bit too far with the redesign. There's fair chance that she'll receive another edit, possibly to restore some of her original flavor with a dash cancel but reduce the distance, or perhaps modify the grab. But what other specific combinations design changes seem reasonably balanced regarding the gun and the grab, considering that we can't "have it all" for the sake of balance?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'll stretch out my hand. Sign me up for this petition. If Mario changed this much on me I'm sure people would come to my aid, so I'll outstretch my grubby Canadian hand for y'all ZSS players.

 

[Player-3]

I dont think anybody thinks 3.5 zss is bad, shes actually really good, shes just a different character and thats y ppl r upset

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@ Stryker
Do you know that you share your name with a gay porn star

I mean I just think it's something you should know

 

[Shokio]

I dont think anybody thinks 3.5 zss is bad, shes actually really good, shes just a different character and thats y ppl r upset

3.5 probably has the most balanced roster yet, so when I say "She's bad", I mean solely in relation to how easy it is to succeed with other characters. ZSS already was not a pick-up-and-play character, but now, she's literally the hardest character to use IMO. And I would say that that puts her on the bottom-end of the tier list. And normally there would be nothing wrong with being the hardest character to use, but the problem is that she's like his way now because of poor design choices.

I actually have stopped attending PM tournaments in my area because I am waiting to figure something out with 3.5 ZSS, but so far my dedication has yielded 0 results. No matter how much practice and lab time you put in, a bad throw is still a bad throw, and there's nothing you can do about that. I think a lot you guys are being objectively optimistic for the sake of being optimistic. In this case, things really are black-and-white: Her throws suck, her paralyzer is extremely limited and too situational, and she hardly has a neutral game, if any at all.

It's ok to flat-out say something sucks. I tell ya, I have NEVER complained about one of my characters ever in the years of me playing fighting games, I'm not that kind of guy. Nerfs do not bother me as long as I can play the character the same WAY. So trust me, when I say ZSS has been hampered, I'm not saying that out of salty emotional rage. If I say that, something BAD has TRULY been done to her.

But yes she is a different character, and that's what we're mainly upset about.

The funny thing is that I don't think anybody complained that much about ZSS in the first place, and for a mid-tier, I expected her to remain fairly unchanged.

Exactly, so why did they have to be changed? By the changes they give ZSS, you'd think that SHE was the broken top-tier character in 3.0, not Mewtwo lol. I'm looking at all these changes, and I'm like, "Nobody ever said there was anything wrong with it before.....". Does the Dev Team leave in some alternate demension where ZSS's grabs were universally deemed the best in Smash history? Now, the transcendent laser had to go, but, the actual dash-cancel mechanic did not.

Charged shot requires a read, but uncharged shot can be spammed.

It's actually risky to throw out an uncharged shot now that the dash cancel is gone. And the main problem is that the uncharged shot is virtually useless in the first place now. Maybe if it did more damage people would have a reason to throw it out there, but it's truly been stripped of any meaningful utility.

Also consider 3.5 added key system-wide changes and cast-wide nerfs/redesigns, and honestly I think a handful of characters will receive the same treatment as ZSS.

By you stating this, I'm taking this as agreement that yes, ZSS has indeed been designed under completely different parameters than everyone else. The fact that you said other chars WILL receive the same changes, means that you see that only ZSS has received watering-down.

 

[Stryker]

So I decided to join this thread as the lone wolf who plays devil's advocate, because I want to encourage people to really play the 3.5 iteration more before developing a solid opinion, so that we can more optimally weigh the differences and rationally seek a compromise. I also just enjoy analyzing the PMDT's overall design choices, and if it sounds like I'm PR, I'm really just trying to read their minds. None of the dev team has been really active here, so I felt that a pro-3.5 voice was needed to fill that gap.

It's definitely fair to want to play devils advocate and try to push discussion in a constructive manner. You may yield better results in the future by announcing your intention first, but being civil matters more, and you seem to be just fine at that.

I get you with the whole Squirtle meta not really changing at all, and that Zelda has a shiny new tool. It seems like we got scraps compared some characters, which is why I highly advocate a taunt-toggle option to restore some of her original flavor. But I don't think the new design is rubbish, and even Leffen, a guy who's not even a big fan of PM, says that ZSS improved with all the changes.

To this, I give you this:

I dont think anybody thinks 3.5 zss is bad, shes actually really good, shes just a different character and thats y ppl r upset

I like some of the new changes. I love that laser is clankable now. It doesn't feel so OP O.o
But it's just... not the same.
And the other thing too: Don't try to act like we haven't been trying. I've put in at least 2 or 3 hours of lab time with just ZSS alone, and I don't even consider her my main, let alone trying to find lab time for Rosa in Smash 4.

I actually have stopped attending PM tournaments in my area because I am waiting to figure something out with 3.5 ZSS, but so far my dedication has yielded 0 results. No matter how much practice and lab time you put in, a bad throw is still a bad throw, and there's nothing you can do about that. [...] Her throws suck, her paralyzer is extremely limited and too situational, and she hardly has a neutral game, if any all.

So what's the productive thing to do now? Dev team isn't being full out responsive, but in one post in another thread, I read that they admitted that they may have gone a bit too far with the redesign. There's fair chance that she'll receive another edit, possibly to restore some of her original flavor with a dash cancel but reduce the distance, or perhaps modify the grab. But what other specific combinations design changes seem reasonably balanced regarding the gun and the grab, considering that we can't "have it all" for the sake of balance?

Well, we can make sure we make noise about how we feel, and hope they listen to their players?
We can make sure we let them know that we don't hate the whole thing, just the parts that stop her from being unqiue. It's been said a few times, but most of us that don't like the 3.5 build actually don't mind the nerfs. We should make sure that we let the PMDT know that some of the changes have been positive too.
I've called them out for taking the easy way out with this design, but I won't pretend as though they have an easy job with balancing this stuff, so if we can make some suggestions that would suit her playstyle, or maybe explain her playstyle better, they will have better info to try to balance her with.

@ Stryker
Do you know that you share your name with a gay porn star

I mean I just think it's something you should know

I didn't actually know that.
I mean. Pornstars have names the same as people. I'm sure someone named Courtney also shares a name with a pornstar as well.
I latched onto the name when I was younger from this:
http://mortalkombat.wikia.com/wiki/Kurtis_Stryker
Wasn't overtly fond of the character. He's alright. But I liked the spelling, and I didn't see it often enough to think it was common, so I've had it as an online tag for a while.

 

[Shokio]

Oh and as for bringing up Leffen.....I wouldn't say he's a strong point to bring up. He stopped playing PM for a veeeeeerrrryy long time, and isn't even a serious PM player to begin with. I wouldn't say his opinion means much considering that he never played PM or ZSS very consistently.

You know who thinks ZSS is absolutely booty now though? Oro and Numerics, which I'm sure we can all agree that their word means a lot more than Leffen's. Oro won't flat-out say it in public (he had to do PR), but I've talked to him in private messages and he pretty much is in 100% agreement with us 3.0 supporters. We've already gotten a quote from Numerics, who flat out said "The throws are trash", so there's that.

I was up for consideration on the ZSS list, and I don't like her changes. The only people who we haven't got comments from are Xaltis and Vixen, who I'm going to try to reach out to to get their thoughts. But the fact that Numerics and Oro?! themselves think her changes are awful speaks volumes.

 

[Broasty]

Thanks for the clarification.

But on who did she have guaranteed follow-ups on, outside of the characters (like fast-fallers) that EVERYONE had guaranteed follow-ups on? I don't think anyone truly remembers ZSS's throws......they were good, but they were nothing like a Mario orLink down throw. If her throw game was so OP like you and others in this thread make it out to be, then why was literally NOBODY complaining about ZSS's throws in 3.0?



Projectiles are NOT something you should have to READ your opponent for though. Listen to what you just said. Do you have to read for Falco lasers? Mario Fire Balls? Wolf Lasers? PK Freeze? No. Projectiles are a tool you can throw out in the neutral game in order to pressure your opponent or eliminate options. The fact that you just said that you have to get a READ for the projectile to be good, shows just how truly weak it has become.

I understand fully what you're saying, but what you're saying would be legit IF everyone else on the roster followed the same route that was taken with ZSS, but they haven't. ZSS has been singled-out, seemingly designed on a whole different mindset than the rest of the cast. I'm glad you quoted what the PMDT had said:



^The problem is, is that only ZSS is adhering to that rule. Of course it's the case with the likes of Peach and Zelda and whatnot, because they've never been designed to be combo heavy, so those kinds of characters aside; it's still insanely easy to get a 5-6 combo with ANY character. Not to mention, in 3.0, most ZSS combos were 3-4 hits anyway, so she was already closer to that goal in 3.0 then most characters were.

It always comes back around to this, what I've been saying this whole time: Nobody has been given the ZSS treatment, THAT is the problem here. Everyone can still do what they did in 3.0, just in a toned-down extent. But ZSS on the other hand has straight had things REMOVED from here. Why wasn't the rest of the roster given poop grabs in order to promote player skill? Why didn't they get random increases of endlag on throws?

Mario can still Down-Throw -> Fair someone at 100%. Link can down-throw into kill all the way up to 200%. Olimar can Fair at almost any percent with a Blue or White Pikmin. Why were everyone else's DI mixups left intact? All these ZSS changes would be fine IF the Dev Team would've just applied the same rules and standards to the rest of the roster, but they didn't.

As far as projectiles go, I can tell you Luigi has to read the opponent. Due to the large amount of lag, if someone calls me out on using it, they can jump in, do an attack that hits through the projectile.

And as far as follow ups go, Luigi also has a very limited range of guaranteed followups on throw, particularly when it comes to finishers. One can cover all options with Bair, but that will not kill, though it can lead to off stage opponent if at really high percent. If one wishes to risk going for the read of DI, one can go for a Fair and potentially kill. Finally, if you have extensive knowledge of the matchup, you can predict when to use the hard to follow up Dair.

I'm pointing this out because I'm saying new ZSS isn't the only one who requires the player to extensively learn the matchups or be cautious about using a projectile. It's very likely that the PMDT set up the throw to be about choosing your options much like Luigi in the sense that you can take a gamble and go for a harder punish, or you can get a guaranteed hit that ends it.

 

[Player-3]

Oh and as for bringing up Leffen.....I wouldn't say he's a strong point to bring up. He stopped playing PM for a veeeeeerrrryy long time, and isn't even a serious PM player to begin with. I wouldn't say his opinion means much considering that he never played PM or ZSS very consistently.

You know who thinks ZSS is absolutely booty now though? Oro and Numerics, which I'm sure we can all agree that their word means a lot more than Leffen's. Oro won't flat-out say it in public (he had to do PR), but I've talked to him in private messages and he pretty much is in 100% agreement with us 3.0 supporters. We've already gotten a quote from Numerics, who flat out said "The throws are trash", so there's that.

I was up for consideration on the ZSS list, and I don't like her changes. The only people who we haven't got comments from are Xaltis and Vixen, who I'm going to try to reach out to to get their thoughts. But the fact that Numerics and Oro?! themselves think her changes are awful speaks volumes.

the changes are awful, the character is bad in a vacuum but still manages fine with the roster (outside of a few bad matchups) so i'd still consider the character viable

but ya i pretty much only play wario now in 3.5 until they fix her (very high chance of it from what i hear through friends in the br, i pitched jc paralyzer if they)

 

[Shokio]

As far as projectiles go, I can tell you Luigi has to read the opponent. Due to the large amount of lag, if someone calls me out on using it, they can jump in, do an attack that hits through the projectile.

And as far as follow ups go, Luigi also has a very limited range of guaranteed followups on throw, particularly when it comes to finishers. One can cover all options with Bair, but that will not kill, though it can lead to off stage opponent if at really high percent. If one wishes to risk going for the read of DI, one can go for a Fair and potentially kill. Finally, if you have extensive knowledge of the matchup, you can predict when to use the hard to follow up Dair.

I'm pointing this out because I'm saying new ZSS isn't the only one who requires the player to extensively learn the matchups or be cautious about using a projectile. It's very likely that the PMDT set up the throw to be about choosing your options much like Luigi in the sense that you can take a gamble and go for a harder punish, or you can get a guaranteed hit that ends it.

One of the main people I train with is a Luigi main. The Fireballs do not require reads. In the neutral game, you CAN just throw them out there to cover space/limit options, due to how slow it is and the great vertical range it covers, it can totally just be thrown out there and be effective. His Fireball is also a great tool for extending combos, and is an amazing edge-guard tool when you face the stage and bounce it off the wall. AND it can be used as an approach option, Fireball --> Wavedash in. What it lacks in raw power and range it makes up for in utility. It's a VERY versatile projectile. Luigi's Fireball utility >>>>>>> ZSS's new paralyzer.

Another thing you have to understand is the change from useful to useless. The main issue is that we had a good projectile turned into rubbish. It's not even situational. There's literally no point in pressing neutral B anymore.

As for the grabs, but he at least retains the ability to get a guaranteed combo or kill out of down throw if improper DI is used. ZSS does not. Luigi has the special ability of wavedashing and grabbing so quickly that your opponent won't even be able to DI quick enough, giving you the follow up. It's been done to me so many times by my partner I mentioned.

Luigi's throw game also has the threat of a kill throw being the same direction as his combo throw, meaning, if you do DI for the down throw, he can kill or get you off-stage far enough to where you won't recover with the back throw.

And Luigi can chaingrab fast-fallers no problem. ZSS cannot.

Luigi also has guaranteed follow-ups at low-to-mid percents off of down throw. Guess what percents ZSS has guaranteed follow ups on? None.

Have you actually played ZSS and used her new grabs? Angles aside, even if they weren't bad, the added endlags mean you can't get a conversion even when they're right next to you. Sometimes, you even get PUNISHED for performing an Up Throw. That's right, sometimes when you up throw with ZSS, the opponent will actually get out of hitstun before you're even able to jump or get your follow up. I am not exaggerating or making things up - other ZSS's in this thread can confirm this. And this is something that's not due to lack of skill or intelligence, the grab is literally DYSFUNCTIONAL.

Down throw is ALMOST as bad. Often times your opponent will have already performed their tech while ZSS is still recovering from the axe kick she does. As if the distance and angle the throw sends people at weren't bad enough, you can't even move within a suitable amount of time to get your follow up.

(On another note, I fully agree that Luigi is one of the most skill-oriented characters in the game, don't get me wrong. I commend any Luigi mains. But at this point, even Luigi is easier to do well with than ZSS, because he FUNCTIONS PROPERLY.)

So as you can see, even Luigi, LUIGI far out-classes ZSS's grab game, and his grab game isn't even known to be anything above average! Don't you guys think there's a problem there?

 

[Foo]

As far as projectiles go, I can tell you Luigi has to read the opponent. Due to the large amount of lag, if someone calls me out on using it, they can jump in, do an attack that hits through the projectile.

And as far as follow ups go, Luigi also has a very limited range of guaranteed followups on throw, particularly when it comes to finishers. One can cover all options with Bair, but that will not kill, though it can lead to off stage opponent if at really high percent. If one wishes to risk going for the read of DI, one can go for a Fair and potentially kill. Finally, if you have extensive knowledge of the matchup, you can predict when to use the hard to follow up Dair.

I'm pointing this out because I'm saying new ZSS isn't the only one who requires the player to extensively learn the matchups or be cautious about using a projectile. It's very likely that the PMDT set up the throw to be about choosing your options much like Luigi in the sense that you can take a gamble and go for a harder punish, or you can get a guaranteed hit that ends it.

Requiring a read on your opponent does not equal requiring not being read by your opponent. Almost all projectiles, with some slight exceptions, are thrown out for one of three reasons.

1. To limit your opponents options to help you approach
2. To force your opponent to approach
3. To rack up a damage

ZSS laser does none of these. Luigi's isn't particularly good, but spamming does have potential to rack up % and it does force them to approach. (just that you aren't in a totally advantageous spot when it does.)

As for her throws, I am 100% luigi has better throw follow ups than ZSS. One person I play against has a heavy brawl background, and doesn't really combo or use tech skill much, but even he gets good follow ups out of luigi throws most of the time.

The main problem with ZSS throws right now is that they nerfed them super hard TWICE. It's like one PMDT member wanted to nerf the throw angles and one wanted to make them laggier. They couldn't decide which to do, so they just put them both in and called her grab game finished. Most characters with tech chase downthrows have good tech chases at any% against spacies. At most %s, spacies hit the ground before you even stop lagging. I know upthrow is the better throw against them, but I'm just saying.

So what's the productive thing to do now? Dev team isn't being full out responsive, but in one post in another thread, I read that they admitted that they may have gone a bit too far with the redesign. There's fair chance that she'll receive another edit, possibly to restore some of her original flavor with a dash cancel but reduce the distance, or perhaps modify the grab. But what other specific combinations design changes seem reasonably balanced regarding the gun and the grab, considering that we can't "have it all" for the sake of balance?

I've said pretty much this before, but I'll be more specific. I'm not saying I NEED all these things, just that this is how I would patch her. (would probably look different if I put some serious time into it, or tested it at all)

MY IDEAL 3.6 CHANGES

Smashes:
Downsmash damage changed to 12, but stun time considerably shortened: This keeps it just as powerful at 3.5, but mitigates how unfun it is to be stunned for so long. Being able to hit double downsmash into upair or fsmash is kinda silly. Just make it do a little more damage, but not last as long so it's less unfun to be stunned.

Grab:
Tether grab restored.
Throws, returned to her old throws but with slightly worse trajectories. Upthrow given a slightly backwards trajectory and downthrow given a forwards one.

Aerials:
Nair damage reverted to 10, but base knockback restored. Trajectory made higher to prevent it from stringing into itself without gaining altitude. That meas at the perfect%/weight/fallspeed, you can chain it 3 times on ground before having to use platforms to extend the combo(however, it would normally only get one or two, but still could combo into other moves). It would also combo a little better into double jump fair. Also, range increased. Not quite to 3.0, but not HALF of 3.5. It can also stale now.
Fair:
Knockback reduced, first kick comes out later but second kick comes out the same time. This makes the first hit combo into the second one better, However, it won't kill out of nair strings at mid%s, just send them off stage for a ledgeguard.
Dair:
Grounded meteor hitbox reverted, shield stun reduced.

Specials:
Dash cancel returned, but 3 or 5 (or whatever) frames after blaster comes out. Remains clankable and faster. No longer driftable(? idk one way or the other.)

Down-b:
Momentum angles reverted to 3.0, but does not come back after being hit in the air. OR Up-b has signifcantly less ledge grab range. (It was nerfed to limit her recovery, but it also nerfed fun and cool options on stage. Nerfing her recovery to make her more gimpable or recover from closer would be better)

Other:
If this character would be too strong in 3.5, by all means, tweak nerf away. Take away the damage buffs, reduce downsmash and fsmash range etc. Just don't nerf the fun

EDIT: Would like to clarify in advance that I'm just spitballing. I'd bet anything that the changes I listed are not perfect and I would play test and tweak them a bunch before releasing that if I was a dev.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Not that I have a stake in this argument but I feel ZSS' current blaster is meant to serve as a mid-range disjointed poke. Its simply not an amazing one.

 

[TTTTTsd]

To make it clear, sign me up for the reversion petition as my current position is that something's gotta change, I spose. I don't really play this character but I don't like needless anything when it comes to character changes.

 

[Foo]

Not that I have a stake in this argument but I feel ZSS' current blaster is meant to serve as a mid-range disjointed poke. Its simply not an amazing one.

That's what it does, but it doesn't really do damage.

Also, mid ranged poke tools are boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnng.

 

[Stryker]

MY IDEAL 3.6 CHANGES

Smashes:
Downsmash damage changed to 12, but stun time considerably shortened: This keeps it just as powerful at 3.5, but mitigates how unfun it is to be stunned for so long. Being able to hit double downsmash into upair or fsmash is kinda silly. Just make it do a little more damage, but not last as long so it's less unfun to be stunned.


Grab:
Tether grab restored.
Throws, returned to her old throws but with slightly worse trajectories. Upthrow given a slightly backwards trajectory and downthrow given a forwards one.



Aerials:
Nair damage reverted to 10, but base knockback restored. Trajectory made higher to prevent it from stringing into itself without gaining altitude. That meas at the perfect%/weight/fallspeed, you can chain it 3 times on ground before having to use platforms to extend the combo(however, it would normally only get one or two, but still could combo into other moves). It would also combo a little better into double jump fair. Also, range increased. Not quite to 3.0, but not HALF of 3.5. It can also stale now.
Fair:
Knockback reduced, first kick comes out later but second kick comes out the same time. This makes the first hit combo into the second one better, However, it won't kill out of nair strings at mid%s, just send them off stage for a ledgeguard.
Dair:
Grounded meteor hitbox reverted, shield stun reduced.


Specials:
Dash cancel returned, but 3 or 5 (or whatever) frames after blaster comes out. Remains clankable and faster. No longer driftable(? idk one way or the other.)

Down-b:
Momentum angles reverted to 3.0, but does not come back after being hit in the air. OR Up-b has signifcantly less ledge grab range. (It was nerfed to limit her recovery, but it also nerfed fun and cool options on stage. Nerfing her recovery to make her more gimpable or recover from closer would be better)

Other:
If this character would be too strong in 3.5, by all means, tweak nerf away. Take away the damage buffs, reduce downsmash and fsmash range etc. Just don't nerf the fun

EDIT: Would like to clarify in advance that I'm just spitballing. I'd bet anything that the changes I listed are not perfect and I would play test and tweak them a bunch before releasing that if I was a dev.

Dsmash
You know, I've never felt it was really okay to be getting double down smashes. Not important to her core identity, and really doesn't feel fair.
"Wait, you get to stun me again while I'm stunned?"
Good change!

Laser
You know, I'm sure they could find another mechanic to use with her blaster that would be just as fun as dash cancel, and keep her playstyle, but overall, dc back would be nice. Clankable it awesome.

 

[Shokio]

Requiring a read on your opponent does not equal requiring not being read by your opponent. Almost all projectiles, with some slight exceptions, are thrown out for one of three reasons.

1. To limit your opponents options to help you approach
2. To force your opponent to approach
3. To rack up a damage

ZSS laser does none of these. Luigi's isn't particularly good, but spamming does have potential to rack up % and it does force them to approach. (just that you aren't in a totally advantageous spot when it does.)

As for her throws, I am 100% luigi has better throw follow ups than ZSS. One person I play against has a heavy brawl background, and doesn't really combo or use tech skill much, but even he gets good follow ups out of luigi throws most of the time.

The main problem with ZSS throws right now is that they nerfed them super hard TWICE. It's like one PMDT member wanted to nerf the throw angles and one wanted to make them laggier. They couldn't decide which to do, so they just put them both in and called her grab game finished. Most characters with tech chase downthrows have good tech chases at any% against spacies. At most %s, spacies hit the ground before you even stop lagging. I know upthrow is the better throw against them, but I'm just saying.



I've said pretty much this before, but I'll be more specific. I'm not saying I NEED all these things, just that this is how I would patch her. (would probably look different if I put some serious time into it, or tested it at all)

MY IDEAL 3.6 CHANGES

Smashes:
Downsmash damage changed to 12, but stun time considerably shortened: This keeps it just as powerful at 3.5, but mitigates how unfun it is to be stunned for so long. Being able to hit double downsmash into upair or fsmash is kinda silly. Just make it do a little more damage, but not last as long so it's less unfun to be stunned.

Grab:
Tether grab restored.
Throws, returned to her old throws but with slightly worse trajectories. Upthrow given a slightly backwards trajectory and downthrow given a forwards one.

Aerials:
Nair damage reverted to 10, but base knockback restored. Trajectory made higher to prevent it from stringing into itself without gaining altitude. That meas at the perfect%/weight/fallspeed, you can chain it 3 times on ground before having to use platforms to extend the combo(however, it would normally only get one or two, but still could combo into other moves). It would also combo a little better into double jump fair. Also, range increased. Not quite to 3.0, but not HALF of 3.5. It can also stale now.
Fair:
Knockback reduced, first kick comes out later but second kick comes out the same time. This makes the first hit combo into the second one better, However, it won't kill out of nair strings at mid%s, just send them off stage for a ledgeguard.
Dair:
Grounded meteor hitbox reverted, shield stun reduced.

Specials:
Dash cancel returned, but 3 or 5 (or whatever) frames after blaster comes out. Remains clankable and faster. No longer driftable(? idk one way or the other.)

Down-b:
Momentum angles reverted to 3.0, but does not come back after being hit in the air. OR Up-b has signifcantly less ledge grab range. (It was nerfed to limit her recovery, but it also nerfed fun and cool options on stage. Nerfing her recovery to make her more gimpable or recover from closer would be better)

Other:
If this character would be too strong in 3.5, by all means, tweak nerf away. Take away the damage buffs, reduce downsmash and fsmash range etc. Just don't nerf the fun

EDIT: Would like to clarify in advance that I'm just spitballing. I'd bet anything that the changes I listed are not perfect and I would play test and tweak them a bunch before releasing that if I was a dev.

Smashes:
- Forward Smash: Is fine as is.
- Down Smash: They actually already shortened the stun time on this move, I definitely don't feel like it needs to be shortened any further considering that people can mash out of it. But as far as changes I would like, I would like the momentum you got after crouch-canceling your dash into a DSmash. I'll gladly take a damage nerf for to have that back. But other than that, I think Down Smash is fine the way it , the nerfed momentum isn't really a problem, I just enjoyed the slightly longer slide.
-Up Smash: Leave as is.

Grab:
- Tether grab restored (If the Dev Team would be open to doing this.)

- Of course this would mean restoring the angles, knockbacks, and frames back to how they were in 3.0.​

- Normal grab (If the Dev Team stands firmly on thinking she should have a normal grab)

- The unnecessary endlags MUST be removed, period. They hamper follow-ups even further and makes ZSS - a quick and mobile character - feel sluggish. Bad, bad design choice.
- Keep the angle of the down throw. Yes, I said that. Why?
- Because they should change the angle of Up Throw back to 93 degrees, so she once again has a DI mixup. This will allow to get combos off of down throw and vice versa if and ONLY if you mindgame the opponent into doing the wrong DI.​

Aerials:
- Up Air:

-Make it hit at a more vertical angle so it can be closer to it's Brawl rendition. Reduce the amount of damage it does.​

- Foward Air:

-Is finally fixed, thanks Dev Team. Reduce the amount of damage it does by 2% though.​

- Down Air:

-Keep the nerfs ya'll made to this, it's fine by me.​

- Back Air:

-I'm glad this move wans't touched. Never touch this move. Ever.​

- Neutral Air:

-Reduce it's damage by 2%. Shorten the backend range of it kinda significantly, but, restore the frontal range back to 3.0. It was already hard to hit short characters with Nair, now it's almost impossible in 3.5. I agree with Foo's suggestion; give it a higher angle to make it less free to string rather than a lower one.​

Specials:
- Neutral B:

Restore the Dash Cancel. You can make the lasers:
- Faster so that it's harder for ZSS to run behind them.
- Clankable. Low priority in-fact so that a disjoint can cut through the laser and hit Samus.
- Shorter so that they cover less of the stage. The uncharged ones can remain the same I guess.
- Make it do 2% uncharged, 4% fully charged.​

-Down B

-By all means keep the divekick the way it is. It's a nerf overall but it's one I'm totally ok with because it doesn't tamper with the way she plays.​

- Up-B

- When using it on somebody on the ground, it has trouble connecting into the meteor hitbox now. Fix that plox. I think the move in-general is harder to link into the meteor. I'm not sure that change was intentional? Because it's not like it was mad easy or ideal to even go for the meteor hitbox in the first place (while in the air).
- I thought this change was rather unnecessary, but keep the range reduction that was done.​

 

[ph00tbag]

Smashes:
Downsmash damage changed to 12, but stun time considerably shortened: This keeps it just as powerful at 3.5, but mitigates how unfun it is to be stunned for so long. Being able to hit double downsmash into upair or fsmash is kinda silly. Just make it do a little more damage, but not last as long so it's less unfun to be stunned.

You can't currently dsmash twice and get a particularly good follow-up. I actually don't think the current dsmash changes are that bad. A smash that does less than ten percent seems underpowered to me in a general sense, but the move's core purpose as zoning tool and combo starter has been retained.

Aerials:
Nair damage reverted to 10, but base knockback restored. Trajectory made higher to prevent it from stringing into itself without gaining altitude. That meas at the perfect%/weight/fallspeed, you can chain it 3 times on ground before having to use platforms to extend the combo(however, it would normally only get one or two, but still could combo into other moves). It would also combo a little better into double jump fair. Also, range increased. Not quite to 3.0, but not HALF of 3.5. It can also stale now.

I think the knockback and damage changes to nair are well understood by ZSS players. The combined effect was slightly shorter combos that you have to wait until slightly higher percents to open up. This is fine. I will say the range decrease was probably unnecessary, but even Yeroc has copped to it possibly being overdone.

Fair:
Knockback reduced, first kick comes out later but second kick comes out the same time. This makes the first hit combo into the second one better, However, it won't kill out of nair strings at mid%s, just send them off stage for a ledgeguard.

Well, the knockback of the second hit wasn't reduced in 3.5, and it wasn't really great at KOing in 3.02, so I'm not sure a knockback reduction is necessary.

Dair:
Grounded meteor hitbox reverted, shield stun reduced.

I would actually say make it a moderate-strength meteor all the time, mostly just because I think it's ugly when thrown into mid-air strings.

Specials:
Dash cancel returned, but 3 or 5 (or whatever) frames after blaster comes out. Remains clankable and faster. No longer driftable(? idk one way or the other.)

I wouldn't keep the speed increase. Instead, I'd want the dash out of it to be a special dash that can't be pivot canceled, so there's no costless way to retreat out of the paralyzer. Possibly not jump-cancelable, either.

Down-b:
Momentum angles reverted to 3.0, but does not come back after being hit in the air. OR Up-b has signifcantly less ledge grab range. (It was nerfed to limit her recovery, but it also nerfed fun and cool options on stage. Nerfing her recovery to make her more gimpable or recover from closer would be better)

I would not take away the flip jump restoration after getting hit. ZSS's recovery was never that great. She actually has a fundamentally normal recovery; if she has her double jump, she has options, but she's up the creek once her jump is gone. The tether is really just underwhelming, especially if her opponent has a half-decent sex kick.

Other:
If this character would be too strong in 3.5, by all means, tweak nerf away. Take away the damage buffs, reduce downsmash and fsmash range etc. Just don't nerf the fun

Don't reduce range on dsmash and fsmash. That's not a good idea, IMO.

 

[Legit]

MY IDEAL 3.6 CHANGES

Smashes:
Downsmash damage changed to 12, but stun time considerably shortened: This keeps it just as powerful at 3.5, but mitigates how unfun it is to be stunned for so long. Being able to hit double downsmash into upair or fsmash is kinda silly. Just make it do a little more damage, but not last as long so it's less unfun to be stunned.

Grab:
Tether grab restored.
Throws, returned to her old throws but with slightly worse trajectories. Upthrow given a slightly backwards trajectory and downthrow given a forwards one.

Aerials:
Nair damage reverted to 10, but base knockback restored. Trajectory made higher to prevent it from stringing into itself without gaining altitude. That meas at the perfect%/weight/fallspeed, you can chain it 3 times on ground before having to use platforms to extend the combo(however, it would normally only get one or two, but still could combo into other moves). It would also combo a little better into double jump fair. Also, range increased. Not quite to 3.0, but not HALF of 3.5. It can also stale now.
Fair:
Knockback reduced, first kick comes out later but second kick comes out the same time. This makes the first hit combo into the second one better, However, it won't kill out of nair strings at mid%s, just send them off stage for a ledgeguard.
Dair:
Grounded meteor hitbox reverted, shield stun reduced.

Specials:
Dash cancel returned, but 3 or 5 (or whatever) frames after blaster comes out. Remains clankable and faster. No longer driftable(? idk one way or the other.)

Down-b:
Momentum angles reverted to 3.0, but does not come back after being hit in the air. OR Up-b has signifcantly less ledge grab range. (It was nerfed to limit her recovery, but it also nerfed fun and cool options on stage. Nerfing her recovery to make her more gimpable or recover from closer would be better)

Other:
If this character would be too strong in 3.5, by all means, tweak nerf away. Take away the damage buffs, reduce downsmash and fsmash range etc. Just don't nerf the fun

EDIT: Would like to clarify in advance that I'm just spitballing. I'd bet anything that the changes I listed are not perfect and I would play test and tweak them a bunch before releasing that if I was a dev.

These are actually really good ideas for changes. I particularly agree with the double dsmash nerf and down-b nerf.

Being able to double dsmash in all honesty makes absolutely no sense, especially when the 2nd smash can be followed up (though fsmash is too slow to land afterward in most cases, uair/nair is possible if they don't mash out). Because it can be used twice, a lower damage number seems fair, but reducing the stun duration a bit and increasing the damage would be seen as a lot more reasonable to our opponents. I think maybe reverting the momentum change on the dsmash would be a nice, small compensation (the more movement ZSS has, the better imo).

I think everyone can agree that ZSS has one of the most ridiculous recoveries in the game, even in 3.5 where recoveries were supposed to be substantially nerfed. I think it's dumb that we get our down-b jump back after being hit, especially when other characters with similar mechanics (Diddy's side-b, Lucario Down-b) don't have their moves restored on hit. I think refresh of her down-b jump on hit should be axed, with the 3.0 momentum restored like you said. That would be the better change over the Up-B nerf imo (It would for sure be the bigger one). I don't think an Up-B nerf would be enough, seeing that down-b plus double jump brings you right to the ledge from most places offstage anyway. Even though I love as much mobility on ZSS as possible, I feel down-b refreshes are kind of OP. This may hurt our divekick game, so maybe there is a workaround for that, but I really think down-b refresh has got to go.

I agree fair knockback should be reduced, but only slightly. Aside from bair, it's her only reliable kill move outside of dsmash->fsmash.

As far as the dash cancel goes, I think making it clankable and faster would be acceptable nerfs on their own. However, if they wanted to add SMALL number of frames before we could cancel, I wouldn't complain. At least I'd be able to dash cancel in some capacity again. :D

 

[Foo]

@Phootbag You seem to be looking at my changes too much on an individual level, and not at how they would change the character a whole. A lot of the changes are because of other changes.

Dsmash: You may or may not be right. This is one of those things I'd really have to playtest. I've had no trouble hitting double downsmash to nair, like I always did. *shrug*

Nair: I TOTALLY disagree with you on this one. Nair basically just hits the opponent onto the ground if they are standing, and if they are in the air, good luck hitting it at all. I doesn't make her nair combos shorter at all, actually. Because the base knockback is lower, it either doesn't work at all at that% (unless bad DI) or it works exactly as it did in 3.0 at that %. It just makes the nair combos happen at later %s.

Fair: The only reason I said the knockback should be reduced on fair is because I intended the new nair to combo into fair decently. ZSS is supposed to be mostly unable to kill out of combos, so fair would just send them off stage at most %s. With current nair, fair is completely balanced. With the nair I imagine, current fair would be busted.

Dair: eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew no! Every character and their grandmother has a meteor downair... That's one of the cool things about ZSS that's really fun and I don't want to see removed. I didn't hit it often, but nair to dair to things was a thing in 3.0, and it was awesome.

Neutral b: You're probably right. It's one of those things that'd need playtesting to decide.

Down b: Would need to playtest. I really disagree with you that her recovery is average atm. I think it's actually one of the best in the game atm. Sure, being without your double jump just but you probably messed up big time if you lost it. You can litterally drop off the bottom of the screen and still come back easily. The only thing I'm worried about is how free the tether hop punish really is. I'd say that if it refreshed when you tethered stage, it'd be fine. (Her tether grab ledge is probably too far too imo)

Other: Wasn't really suggesting these changes, just giving examples. I wouldn't mind at all if those changes were made, and if PMDT feels stuff like that is needed, I'm saying go ahead. I just want her fun to be intact. If they have to nerf some random QOL stuff, they can go right ahead.


@ Legit The risk of making down-b not come back is fairly big though. Since she's a tether, if they ledge hog you and hit you with ANYTHING on your "please kill me" ledge hop, you have 0 recovery left. Maybe that's fine, but maybe it means ZSS is dead from being knocked off stage every time. Maybe tethering ledge refreshes it?

Double downsmash to fsmash works on fast fallers or on someone who isn't mashing at high%. Just clarifying. You know, maybe downsmash should be laggier. I always thought it was silly to be as safe as it was, even if it was slow. Maybe it shouldn't be only -2 on shield. It'd probably be better if you actually had to space it to be safe. I'd be totally cool with adding some cooldown frames to dsmash if a nerf was needed.

Fair knockback would be too strong if it connected better and could be combo'd out of nair. If you could reliably hit it out of nair (unless they had good SDI) that would be too strong. I like her having very limited kill options because it allows her other tools to be stronger. That means she needs to hit that bair, dsmash or gimp to earn a kill. She should struggle to kill, be very punishable when whiffing a whip move (save for nair), but also rack damage very well and be really fast. That is the core of the character I am trying to get back.



As for dash cancel blaster. IDK. That's one of the things you'd have to playtest. Maybe it'd be fine with frame 1. Maybe it'd need frame 3 or 5. Can't tell till you test it a little.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I like the idea of ZSS being able to Airdodge out of her blaster. Wavelanding out of blaster complements her mobility and slipperiness nicely while working around the whole issue the dev team has with Dash Cancel. (which I can kind of get behind, there's only so many ways you can deal with a projectile and having a ZSS hot on the blast's heels screaming straight at you at WTF mph will pretty much always force you into a bad spot. Note: For the purpose of this discussion we should be IGNORING FALCO because not doing so will not help move the discussion forward and simply PISS ME OFF. It is clear at this point that Falco is a special snowflake.) This will also help in normalizing AD out of projectiles a little so Wolf and ZSS can be part of the club. Because having one character cancel blaster lag in a certain way is JANK but having two characters cancel blaster lag a certain way (land cancel lasers anyone) is "normalized" and "MELEE".

In the meanwhile, though, ZSS is still viable. Her throws have more lag than they should but Uair strings into aerial finishers or even divekicks are still real and fun as hell (especially something like three Uairs in a row into a finisher omg <3) her tech chase game out of down-throw is salvageable if not amazing and she can still cover recoveries like a boss. Let's keep having fun with this character as we wait for the completely unreasonable change for the sake of change stick to be redressed.

Don't lose hope guys

 

[ph00tbag]

@PhootbagDsmash: You may or may not be right. This is one of those things I'd really have to playtest. I've had no trouble hitting double downsmash to nair, like I always did. *shrug*

Your opponents must not be mashing properly. Dsmash was explicitly redesigned so that wouldn't work as one of the very first changes in pre-release ZSS builds.

Nair: I TOTALLY disagree with you on this one. Nair basically just hits the opponent onto the ground if they are standing, and if they are in the air, good luck hitting it at all. I doesn't make her nair combos shorter at all, actually. Because the base knockback is lower, it either doesn't work at all at that% (unless bad DI) or it works exactly as it did in 3.0 at that %. It just makes the nair combos happen at later %s.

The damage change is actually what shortens combos, in this case. Without being able to reliably test it, I would estimate this damage buff cuts out one potential rep of the nair loop, causing something like a 6% average reduction in the loop's damage. But the more reliable combo percents being higher is actually a Melee-esque property. The longest combos in that game usually started anywhere from 50-70%, and usually ended in death. Zero-to-deaths usually involved a tech chase or two at the lower percents. With that in mind, I can see the PMBR's logic in the nair changes. A trajectory change is also out, since that weakens the DI mix-up between uair and nair.

Fair: The only reason I said the knockback should be reduced on fair is because I intended the new nair to combo into fair decently. ZSS is supposed to be mostly unable to kill out of combos, so fair would just send them off stage at most %s. With current nair, fair is completely balanced. With the nair I imagine, current fair would be busted.

All the better to keep nair the way it is.

but nair to dair to things was a thing in 3.0, and it was awesome.

I think it was stupid and ugly. I like to picture each character as having something of a prototypical sequence of moves that necessitate a certain cadence of movements which are distinctly that character's. For ZSS, she's a character that wants that rhythm of shffled nairs into an offstage uair into falling Plasma Wire, or fair, or whatever. The dair completely decimates that sense of rhythm. I know that the way I'd like to see dair work would probably not be useful outside of grounded punishes, but I don't necessarily think that's so bad, since the move wasn't really useful for covering her bum when she's in the air anyway.

Down b: Would need to playtest. I really disagree with you that her recovery is average atm. I think it's actually one of the best in the game atm. Sure, being without your double jump just but you probably messed up big time if you lost it. You can litterally drop off the bottom of the screen and still come back easily. The only thing I'm worried about is how free the tether hop punish really is. I'd say that if it refreshed when you tethered stage, it'd be fine. (Her tether grab ledge is probably too far too imo)

I mean, a lot of this can be said of Spacies, and I think they actually had an ideal level of balance to their recoveries (Moreso in PAL). Granted, it's probably not a good idea to have that be the standard balance level for a recovery, but it's a good average.

 

[Shokio]

I like the idea of ZSS being able to Airdodge out of her blaster. Wavelanding out of blaster complements her mobility and slipperiness nicely while working around the whole issue the dev team has with Dash Cancel. (which I can kind of get behind, there's only so many ways you can deal with a projectile and having a ZSS hot on the blast's heels screaming straight at you at WTF mph will pretty much always force you into a bad spot. Note: For the purpose of this discussion we should be IGNORING FALCO because not doing so will not help move the discussion forward and simply PISS ME OFF. It is clear at this point that Falco is a special snowflake.) This will also help in normalizing AD out of projectiles a little so Wolf and ZSS can be part of the club. Because having one character cancel blaster lag in a certain way is JANK but having two characters cancel blaster lag a certain way (land cancel lasers anyone) is "normalized" and "MELEE".

In the meanwhile, though, ZSS is still viable. Her throws have more lag than they should but Uair strings into aerial finishers or even divekicks are still real and fun as hell (especially something like three Uairs in a row into a finisher omg <3) her tech chase game out of down-throw is salvageable if not amazing and she can still cover recoveries like a boss. Let's keep having fun with this character as we wait for the completely unreasonable change for the sake of change stick to be redressed.

Don't lose hope guys

Your words have legit strengthened my resolve, Lordy. I will continue playing her until she gets fixed

 

[JANKX]

@ Stryker , sorry if I didn't state my intention initially, but this stems from me genuinely enjoying the new design. I really just hoped that me intervening in this thread could provoke better discussion, and so far I like a lot of the ideas you've all been coming up with.

@ Shokio , I definitely understand that the lack of dash cancel makes projectiles less safe, but now I feel that the restricted movement is part of the fun. I use the uncharged shot mainly as a poke to interrupt my opponent's movement. For the full charge, I play it safe for the most part, but every now and then get gutsy with it. I'm currently trying to get my timing down to release the full charge at various altitudes, learning how to dynamically modify the release point by altering my fall speeds. Let's say you knocked your opponent high in the air, you could potentially catch them with the gun by jumping high, charging the shot, and adjusting your lateral drift and fall speed for correct spacing.

So now, since the ball is out and even people like Oro and Numerics aren't fully satisfied with the new ZSS, we can probably expect some changes/tweaks. It sorta sucks that we got 3.5 ZSS, because I like most of the adjustments they made, while also admitting that subtle tweaks to 3.02 would have been absolutely acceptable. The most difficult part I see in modifying her is prioritizing which elements absolutely need to return, because all the moves that have drastically changed are co-dependent on each other. I think we could use a poll for specific features we want back, be it dash cancel, tether grab, or other things, but anyways here are my suggestions:

Paralyzer:

I think most people miss the dash cancel to Paralyzer. One simple fix for 3.5 ZSS that I've conjured up, is to reinstate the immediate dash cancel, but have a windbox push her backwards as a means to substitute the cooldown. The windbox would only activate upon dash cancel, hinder forward movement, and perhaps increase backward movement, depending on how far the windbox stretches. This would increase her mobility and the safety of the move.​

Grabs:

Grabs I think are a whole lot trickier, because having a standard grab vs tether grab changes her playstyle so dramatically. I appreciate the new grab, but I was a really big fan of the high-risk/high-reward of the original tether. I truly believe that the tether could return, even with the new blaster speeds and dash cancel mechanic, so as long as a mechanic like my proposed windbox is strong enough to prevent some guaranteed followups.​

Throws:

I think that if we can restore the tether grab, throws could be toned down a tad bit to prevent some guaranteed followups, but seriously... initial grabs were so hard to get in 3.02 without stunning your opponent that the benefits seemed pretty fair. The nerfs to all her other moves in 3.5 are more adequate if they wanted to limit combo potential out of throws, and it's not out of the ordinary in Smash to have a grab lead to kill moves. If we keep the standard grab from 3.5, I might agree with any subtle tweaks to the throws to make them a little less underwhelming.​

Recovery:

I think 3.5 achieved a very solid balance in terms of how far the tether reaches and Flip Jump. @ Legit , restoring Flip Jump's momentum but not having it refresh on hit seems compelling, but I feel that with losing the refresh, something else needs to buff.​

Otherwise, I don't know what else really could be done with her. I'm sure PMDT is thinking just as hard as we are, because they're pretty much tasked with mission impossible in creating a game where all characters are reasonably viable. 3.5 ZSS seems really balanced, but the loss of mobility and a high-risk/high-reward grab makes her less fun and intense. Nobody knows what changes are coming next, but I hope the devs go full-****** and give her a shine to make her an honorary space animal.

 

[Stryker]

@ Stryker , sorry if I didn't state my intention initially, but this stems from me genuinely enjoying the new design. I really just hoped that me intervening in this thread could provoke better discussion, and so far I like a lot of the ideas you've all been coming up with.

No worries.
Honestly, the very very very very very (couldn't find any other way to add emphasis here) most important thing you did was stay respectful and polite, and acknowledging where others are coming from.
You really helped in that regard, and I wish more smashers were like this.

Edit: For anyone else,

Aside from just the 3.02 reversions of Dash cancelled laser and her grab, is there anything they could add to ZSS to push her back into her old playstyle? Are there any other mechanics that would work with her old playstyles that the devs could look at if they didn't want to do this changes specifically?