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Patch 1.1.1

DungeonMaster

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Yeah I wouldn't worry about tier list discussions for a bit. There's a new character (or two?) coming in a few months. Get out there and fight and enjoy the game!
Perfect shields being 25% harder to do actually helps us quite a bit. There's a synergy between shield breaks and perfect shields being harder so those clutch moments when people just throw up shield we get more breaks. That's pretty big and hasn't been mentioned yet.
I'm noticing the damage boosts. I didn't think I would but it's an extra 6-7% per match on average.
 
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MOM Samus

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Yeah I wouldn't worry about tier list discussions for a bit. There's a new character (or two?) coming in a few months. Get out there and fight and enjoy the game!
Perfect shields being 25% harder to do actually helps us quite a bit. There's a synergy between shield breaks and perfect shields being harder so those clutch moments when people just throw up shield we get more breaks. That's pretty big and hasn't been mentioned yet.
I'm noticing the damage boosts. I didn't think I would but it's an extra 6-7% per match on average.
How are perfect shields harder to do?
 

MOM Samus

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All of Samus's aerials are made to catch people out of airdodges. Lengthy F-air, lengthy U-air, stalled D-air, and N-air was always great for catching people airdodge crossing through you.
 

MOM Samus

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Can only powershield frames 1-3 now instead of 1-4
Yeah, that is harder, but only if you're mistiming it. If we had computer frame one reactions with shield, this really wouldn't matter. But on attack lag when they're holding shield, this could really be in our favor. Because don't tell me you've shot a Charge on someone who got up, held shield, and got a power shield. This really helps.

As in, what used to be a power shield will now be a regular shield.
 
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zblaqk

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I don't know about you guys but I have been getting ALOT of shield breaks from SM>CS. Anyone else?
 

MOM Samus

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I got 14 shield breaks the day of the patch. That's more than I veer got in a week--two months. And I was playing against Shulk who knew to fast cancel his MonaNdo arts and used different button specials so he could quick select. He was really good.
 

S.P.A.D.

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No shield breaks here. I've had people trying to drop shield after SM to Power Shield the CS get hit but that's it. Sorry I failed
 

FlAlex

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No shield breaks here. I've had people trying to drop shield after SM to Power Shield the CS get hit but that's it. Sorry I failed
U didn't fail. Your opponents were just too stupid to let u succeed. :D

(for realz this time) It wasn't your fault. You just had the misfortune of playing (slightly) better opponents. If the CS hit, its a success (esp. in Sm4sh).
 
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Boney

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I got a bomb to super missile shield break, felt amazing
 

White_Pointer

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I've only managed one bomb -> charge shot shield break so far. I've been trying to get more shield breaks and I've narrowly missed a few, but only got one actual break.

I have however got a few KO's from super missile -> charge shot that I might not have otherwise got because the opponent dropped shield and probably tried to dodge between the super missile and the charge shot because their shield would have been broken had they continued holding it.

Need to experiment a bit more, not sure how the shield changes actually affect Samus' defensive game. She kinda relies on that shield for defense because she's so slow across the ground. Need to use spot dodges more I think.
 

MOM Samus

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For a shield break at 75% on Rosa, I charged the Up Smash and it didn't link me the kill. She also e
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Hey guys, I've been looking over custom moves a bunch for the primary patch thread, and there's one more, fun change to Samus' Melee Charge Shot. When released in the air, she gains a ton more distance and momentum backward. Pre-patch, she just got the same momentum the other charge shots granted. It's not a groundbreaking change to the move, but I thought it would be fun enough to share.
 

Boney

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Hey guys, I've been looking over custom moves a bunch for the primary patch thread, and there's one more, fun change to Samus' Melee Charge Shot. When released in the air, she gains a ton more distance and momentum backward. Pre-patch, she just got the same momentum the other charge shots granted. It's not a groundbreaking change to the move, but I thought it would be fun enough to share.
Hah! Cool thanks for sharing. Wonder if that's a buff or a nerf.

Ask, I'll ask you since you're usually on top of this stuff. Do you know how much endlag fair has on landing now? Just wanna know how much it shaved off from before
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Hah! Cool thanks for sharing. Wonder if that's a buff or a nerf.

Ask, I'll ask you since you're usually on top of this stuff. Do you know how much endlag fair has on landing now? Just wanna know how much it shaved off from before
Fair landing lag went from 30 to 24 frames.
 

KayJay

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A Sample of the new N-Air:

It even beats Luigi's Down B.
 
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Vyrnx

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Nair is one of the better edge guarding moves in the game now that it's reliable. I've been getting so many kills with it all day. Also rising nair can really catch people off guard with the new hitbox and duration. It catches me off guard. You can use it from a pretty good distance below someone combined with a jump and hit them without them seeing it coming.

I haven't found many other uses outside of edge guarding. But we will see, i guess.
 

Gijsbeer

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Hey guys, I was just wonderng, how are you guys getting these SM to CS shield breaks? Ive played 1.1.1 but they still have tiime to jump OoS before the chargeshot is there
 

Hark17ball

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Hey guys, I was just wonderng, how are you guys getting these SM to CS shield breaks? Ive played 1.1.1 but they still have tiime to jump OoS before the chargeshot is there
Mostly traps. I don't stay to far away but I fire a missile or bomb then SH and Fire CS. If they stay in shield it breaks... If they jump they eat 26%. I make them pick their poison
 

KayJay

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Z-Air stales, I'm not sure if this was pre-patch but it displaces the other moves from the stale list.

Edit: Checked old patch on 3DS, it staled before. Never knew.
 
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Garo

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Hey guys, I've been looking over custom moves a bunch for the primary patch thread, and there's one more, fun change to Samus' Melee Charge Shot. When released in the air, she gains a ton more distance and momentum backward. Pre-patch, she just got the same momentum the other charge shots granted. It's not a groundbreaking change to the move, but I thought it would be fun enough to share.
The patch may have increased the recoil even further, but it was always more than the other variations, which is why it's my favourite CS. When edgeguarding, I like to jump offstage, fire the shot and just let the recoil carry me back to the stage.

By the way, has anyone tested the kill percents of the buffed Melee Charge Shot? IIRC, it actually had less kill power than the other Charge Shots pre-patch.
 

Shog

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Okay I picked up Samus today, played for like 3~4 hours. What the hell happened between 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 ?! Nair is completly amazing, Fair is faster than you land. Shieldbreaks here and there. I have now a winrate of 85% ffs.

Like seriously, I am surprised how good Samus now is. Are there 1.1.1 from non-casual Samus mains? I want to see the full potential, because today was a crazy day.
 
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Squaddle

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Okay I picked up Samus today, played for like 3~4 hours. What the hell happened between 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 ?! Nair is completly amazing, Fair is faster than you land. Shieldbreaks here and there. I have now a winrate of 85% ffs.

Like seriously, I am surprised how good Samus now is. Are there 1.1.1 from non-casual Samus mains? I want to see the full potential, because today was a crazy day.
The global patch REALLY worked in our favor. Samus was always built around putting shield pressure from a distance, but many of her moves flat out weren't safe on hit in the slightest. Now things like d-tilt, up-tilt, zair, and super missile are are safe on shield from mid-close to mid range, and nair can beat out other aerial attacks, meaning we can actually do things at low percentages WITHOUT getting punished now!

Samus truly feels like a good character now, its wonderful.
 

Davregis

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The global patch REALLY worked in our favor. Samus was always built around putting shield pressure from a distance, but many of her moves flat out weren't safe on hit in the slightest. Now things like d-tilt, up-tilt, zair, and super missile are are safe on shield from mid-close to mid range, and nair can beat out other aerial attacks, meaning we can actually do things at low percentages WITHOUT getting punished now!

Samus truly feels like a good character now, its wonderful.
Wow, going to try this character out!
 
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DungeonMaster

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Great to have renewed interest in the character from other players, and I agree after several days playing with it, this new patch is a significant improvement for Samus vs. the cast.
There are all the other reasons listed of course, but a big one not mentioned yet that I'm feeling is that we already had one of the fastest out-of-shield options in the game with up-B, and ironically, we are quite tall.
It's a subtle effect but basically people typically hit our shield high and so the shield stun frames are not as noticeable if they try to get in close, because they fall through the air then land (4 frames landing lag) and we can basically always get off the up-B regardless.
The converse is not true, since we're trying to space our attacks most of the game the shield stun means we just don't get punished as much (particularly vs. OOS up-smashes I'm finding, we basically can't be hit by them anymore I'm feeling).
So our out-of-shield remained roughly the same and everyone else's got much worse. That's my impression so far.

In broad terms the global metagame I think 1.1.0 meant basically Sheik was safe on shield and in 1.1.1 she's no longer alone in that category. (She still needs frame nerfs in my opinion, but that's a separate topic...)

Looking forward, I think another global change that would literally make my day would be that they may global patch hitstun out of grounded meteors and reducing the tech window on grounded meteor. Realistically the meteors come from slow moves, it should be fair to say "you had your chance to avoid follow up on impact, you missed it, now you get hurt, bad".
Bringing back the d-air -> d-air combo trees to reality wouldn't hurt the game balance, it would just be fun.
 

KenMeister

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Oh yeah, definitely, Samus feels like someone who can't be slept on now, and while I still hate using Samus vs. characters with good up-close games (because lol jab), I feel like I definitely want to bust her out more often. I already played her alot before the patch came out, and this one just made things better for me.
 

MOM Samus

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If Bombs exploded on contact, I'd put Samus in high tier.

DungeonMaster DungeonMaster speaks truth about the grounded spike tech window. So many people tech it out of a slow reflex. Remember when we could follow up after an Up Tilt for a kill? Never happens anymore, and this would be so good since Up Tilt is safe on shield.
 

Shog

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Well uh, I would like Down Smash to be more powerful and a kill throw (and by kill throw I mean killing at 120% or so at the edge)

(Also am I the only one who hates not having the custom moves? I love Shinespark and the Trip Bomb which explodes fast.)
 

Boney

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One of the things that has helped out a ton is how nair can cover below you much better for roll ins and other approaches after spacing them out with zair, which allows to reset, charge or god or dash attacks or grabs after the teching situations. Similar as dair for covering below you but you don't need to throw it out as early.

But yeah, teching grounded moves is stupid. If you hit a grounded opponent with up tilt you should have guaranteed follow ups. Most of the cast can get them off fast dtilts (hey diddy), so us losing all of out advantage due to teching is the worst. I mean, if you're in a position where you can shield you already missed your opportunity to defend against the move.

I think that Falco's dair actually sends grounded opponents upwards and that's why it's untechable, giving the illusion of a grounded spike. Up tilt could work the same.
 

Varia31

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Oh yeah, Samus definitely feels a lot more solid now! Funny how just a couple changes can affect so much... I love the Nair, now! I do think a stronger throw (perhaps a kill from forward/back throw near the edge at high percents like Shog Shog suggested), and a better D-Smash would help out a ton. I can get past her jab, it's just some of her other moves need a little fine tuning. I still think it would be fun to just take away her jab 2 and just turn her jab 1 into a single, strong hit, similar to Ganondorf. Like I said before, it would reflect her actual canonical strength, and it would be fun to have a strong "get off me" attack when someone gets too close. That's just an idea, though. Not sure what you guys think about that.
 

Vyrnx

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I've been using rar shad bair a lot post patch. It's safer than shff bair across long distances (i.e. approaching). It's hard to explain, but you can't run at someone and shff bair because you are too vulnerable before the bair. You can rar shad bair though because of the air dodge, and combined with a running approach it's really nice. It gets Samus into her best range, midrange, applies shield pressure, etc. You can always bomb away after the shad if you feel like the bair isn't gonna work right. Either way, we need to start using some form of bair thing in the neutral post patch because it's so effective.

I've just been experimenting with dumb stuff a lot today, and I tried playing a bunch of matches without using grab or missiles. I doubt it's better, but my mentality was that a) grab sucks in the neutral already, and b) missiles aren't the best and the time spent missiling could be used to position Samus at midrange. I also kinda think missiles work more to relieve the pressure on the opponent than increase it because it gives them too much breathing room. In the end I used grabs to punish missed techs and landings only, but I never used it in the neutral. Missiles I never used. I did pretty well actually--I beat a really good random Mega Man on FG. He seemed like a tourney player.

This is crazy theorycraft, but I was also kind of thinking that maybe Samus should just focus on shield pressure only as a counter to shields instead of using grab as a counter to shields like every other character. Samus' grab is terrible (I've been noticing it more lately) but our shield pressure game is great, so even if we don't break shields, we can pressure them enough to where they're negated in neutral.

Edit: Also I'm incredibly frustrated right now because every time I read any kind of viability thread I see people spewing crap about Samus. "I have literally never seen jab, usmash, dash attack, or fair connect and LOL samus mains think she isn't the worst character lol". That's the most recent. I wish we could do more about people who give their opinion of Samus without knowing anything about her. Why does it happen to Samus and not other characters like WFT, Bowser, DDD, Ganon... Every time I ague like 5 people all saying the same false statements pile on me. Part of the reason I play low tiers in games is because I like seeing people's opinions progress from "that character sucks" to "this character has things going for her", but people's opinions of Samus are getting worse even as she gets buffed and her meta progresses, as opposed to characters with stagnant meta that don't get buffed never being considered anything but high low tier or low mid tier.

How can people still think that Samus is the worst. It makes me feel even worse when i remember ZELDA is in this game. Arghhh
 
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MOM Samus

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Samus is the worst? She FEELS like the worst character if you just pick her up. Don't argue, don't deny it. Samus felt like a terrible character the day I first used in her 3DS on release. She felt so terrible that I quit her and never used her again. But that was very ignorant of me. When Wii U Samus came (more like, when I finally got SSBU), I found a new passion for Samus. Used her throughout victory and defeat, and she was just so fun to use. And Samus feels great once you've learned her a bit.

Just imagine Samus with a lagless B-air on ground and it always does the tipper. And having Bombs detonate on contact no matter how early? Samus would be pretty fricking good.
 
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MOM Samus

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Oh yeah, Samus definitely feels a lot more solid now! Funny how just a couple changes can affect so much... I love the Nair, now! I do think a stronger throw (perhaps a kill from forward/back throw near the edge at high percents like Shog Shog suggested), and a better D-Smash would help out a ton. I can get past her jab, it's just some of her other moves need a little fine tuning. I still think it would be fun to just take away her jab 2 and just turn her jab 1 into a single, strong hit, similar to Ganondorf. Like I said before, it would reflect her actual canonical strength, and it would be fun to have a strong "get off me" attack when someone gets too close. That's just an idea, though. Not sure what you guys think about that.
Double post, blah blah (plz don't hurt me). Her canon strength could never be properly displayed in Smash. Anything they could possibly do would be a terrible representation of her true power.
 

White_Pointer

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But yeah, teching grounded moves is stupid. If you hit a grounded opponent with up tilt you should have guaranteed follow ups. Most of the cast can get them off fast dtilts (hey diddy), so us losing all of out advantage due to teching is the worst. I mean, if you're in a position where you can shield you already missed your opportunity to defend against the move.

I think that Falco's dair actually sends grounded opponents upwards and that's why it's untechable, giving the illusion of a grounded spike. Up tilt could work the same.
The stupid thing is, her up tilt works differently on grounded opponents than it does on aerial opponents. Grounded opponents it'll spike them into the stage, giving them a chance to tech. But aerial opponents, it'll hit them up and away in more of a rising horizontal trajectory. I can't really think of any other move in the game that affects grounded and aerial opponents differently in this way...they either spike or they don't, regardless of whether the opponent is in the air or on the ground.

If it's supposed to be a spike, make it a spike against aerial opponents too so it works like Falcon's. If it's supposed to have high horizontal knockback, make it do that same knockback against grounded opponents. Having it work differently depending on whether the opponent is in the air or on the ground is stupid.
 

zblaqk

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Edit: Also I'm incredibly frustrated right now because every time I read any kind of viability thread I see people spewing crap about Samus. "I have literally never seen jab, usmash, dash attack, or fair connect and LOL samus mains think she isn't the worst character lol". That's the most recent. I wish we could do more about people who give their opinion of Samus without knowing anything about her. Why does it happen to Samus and not other characters like WFT, Bowser, DDD, Ganon... Every time I ague like 5 people all saying the same false statements pile on me. Part of the reason I play low tiers in games is because I like seeing people's opinions progress from "that character sucks" to "this character has things going for her", but people's opinions of Samus are getting worse even as she gets buffed and her meta progresses, as opposed to characters with stagnant meta that don't get buffed never being considered anything but high low tier or low mid tier.

How can people still think that Samus is the worst. It makes me feel even worse when i remember ZELDA is in this game. Arghhh
In my opinion, a lot of Samus' misconceptions come from three main things:

1- The awkwardness of her move-set with unorthodox executions make most players just overlook her potential due to it not immediately meshing with their playstyles and habits.

2- The punishing aspects of her game-plan when it comes to generally strong options such as rolling and grabbing compared to the rest of the cast (causing a Samus player to circumvent these short-comings with more advanced techniques like SHAD'ing).

and finally:

3-Due to the lackluster tournament results that she has been having.
 

Varia31

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Double post, blah blah (plz don't hurt me). Her canon strength could never be properly displayed in Smash. Anything they could possibly do would be a terrible representation of her true power.
Oh I know. If she was really that strong in Smash, she'd be effortlessly swinging Bowser around with one arm and throwing him way past the stage. lol I meant it'd be closer at least. As it stands, her jab is pitiful, but if it was a single, hardy blow, it might be more fun (and more useful) to use. That's all I'm saying. ;)
 

Vyrnx

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Just imagine Samus with a lagless B-air on ground and it always does the tipper. And having Bombs detonate on contact no matter how early? Samus would be pretty fricking good.
If you hit someone's shield with bair and they whiff an OOS, they are at the perfect distance for a punish with sweetspot fsmash.
Also rar shad bair has been working really well all day, I recommend you all try it.
 

HeroMystic

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Going to echo that Samus's N-air is very good now. It catches a lot more aerials and my practice partner even complained a bit.

I'll test her out during some friendlies at my weekly.
 
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