Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Jay-kun]

As presented on Abadango's YouTube channel, Pac can, in fact, edge cancel off of his Hydrant and edge cancel his Power Pellet's recoil bounce.
This new tech could possibly make his hydrant play much faster, and his edge guarding can now cover a much larger, more intimidating distance. This means Pac's already monstrous gimping ability is suddenly even more powerful, being able to launch his hydrant much faster and cover more area with active hitboxes (as well as a point with super armor) along edges. If we can figure out ways to implement this tech to a multitude of setups, this could change Pac-Man's viability by a marginal sum.

HOW??? TELL ME HOW!!! also wut is his youtube channel?

 

[makemesmellbad]

HOW??? TELL ME HOW!!! also wut is his youtube channel?

His YouTube channel is just "Abadango". I can't post links because I'm a newb, lol, but the videos are his most recent and are aptly named. Searching "abadango edge cancel" brings both videos up as well as a basic edge cancelling tutorial.

 

[Jay-kun]

His YouTube channel is just "Abadango". I can't post links because I'm a newb, lol, but the videos are his most recent and are aptly named. Searching "abadango edge cancel" brings both videos up as well as a basic edge cancelling tutorial.

on google or what?
EDIT: nvmd thx a bunch!!


DAMMIT I already knew the hydrant edge-cancel it is on a video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv-O30LOvFY
And I was almost ahead of @Abadango in knowledge of Pacman. Darn

 

[Tetz]

Can anyone give me some advice on these Matchups?

Falco: This one is really hard for me atm. If he reflects, for example the orange, we get Reflector + Projectile damage (only if we are close enough of course). I don't know, his reflect options feel harder to deal with Imo. If he plays patient and campy, I have no Idea what do to really. Played 3 really good Falcos, close Matches but only a few wins.

Sheik: Well she's just so fast, I can't throw my stuff out lol. Seriously, was playing a good EU Sheik a while back, the first Matches I was a little dominating him, but the more we've played, the more he got the upper hand. It's just so annoying, with Sheiks fair spam, she is (randomly) able to catch our fruits, this produces so much salt sometimes.

King DDD: Maybe a little surprising, but think about it: We all know that Pacman has killing problems. DDD is able to camp the hell out of us. I was losing to a good DDD in a 100+ tournament, because he outcamped me. I had no Idea really how to kill him, I was really struggling with that. Key? No, he survives this with like 130% or something like that. He just lives forever. He killed my Pac at like 75% ( 150% upair rage).

These are the matchups I struggle most with at the moment. Anyone else? Any tips?

 

[meleebrawler]

Can anyone give me some advice on these Matchups?

Falco: This one is really hard for me atm. If he reflects, for example the orange, we get Reflector + Projectile damage (only if we are close enough of course). I don't know, his reflect options feel harder to deal with Imo. If he plays patient and campy, I have no Idea what do to really. Played 3 really good Falcos, close Matches but only a few wins.

Sheik: Well she's just so fast, I can't throw my stuff out lol. Seriously, was playing a good EU Sheik a while back, the first Matches I was a little dominating him, but the more we've played, the more he got the upper hand. It's just so annoying, with Sheiks fair spam, she is (randomly) able to catch our fruits, this produces so much salt sometimes.

King DDD: Maybe a little surprising, but think about it: We all know that Pacman has killing problems. DDD is able to camp the hell out of us. I was losing to a good DDD in a 100+ tournament, because he outcamped me. I had no Idea really how to kill him, I was really struggling with that. Key? No, he survives this with like 130% or something like that. He just lives forever. He killed my Pac at like 75% ( 150% upair rage).

These are the matchups I struggle most with at the moment. Anyone else? Any tips?

Falco, you can try jumping and throwing strawberries and cherries to avoid his reflector.
All fruit and hydrant can protect you from blaster shots, and his recovery is fairly abusable
for Pac. Throw fruits (melon or orange especially) if you expect a phantasm, or drop hydrants on Fire Bird.
Edit: Pellet works great at blocking lasers too and heals.

Sheik you can be more liberal with your hydrant since she is bad at breaking it.
Try to keep a trampoline between you and her to limit her approaches. Use hydrants to block
needles and get fruit charging time. Keep an eye out for bouncing fishes that you can sidestep
and punish, and use your disjointed utilt to challenge her other air approaches.

DDD does live to insane percents, and this can make him really dangerous with rage.
But you can literally just throw anything to beat a gordo, except maybe a stale cherry.
Lots of Dededes like to float in the air with their multiple jumps to wait for you to make a mistake,
try throwing bells to discourage this. Try not to engage him in close combat since his moves
are hard to challenge. Oh, and try hitting gordos with pellet for healing.

 

[Jay-kun]

Can anyone give me some advice on these Matchups?

Falco: This one is really hard for me atm. If he reflects, for example the orange, we get Reflector + Projectile damage (only if we are close enough of course). I don't know, his reflect options feel harder to deal with Imo. If he plays patient and campy, I have no Idea what do to really. Played 3 really good Falcos, close Matches but only a few wins.

Sheik: Well she's just so fast, I can't throw my stuff out lol. Seriously, was playing a good EU Sheik a while back, the first Matches I was a little dominating him, but the more we've played, the more he got the upper hand. It's just so annoying, with Sheiks fair spam, she is (randomly) able to catch our fruits, this produces so much salt sometimes.

King DDD: Maybe a little surprising, but think about it: We all know that Pacman has killing problems. DDD is able to camp the hell out of us. I was losing to a good DDD in a 100+ tournament, because he outcamped me. I had no Idea really how to kill him, I was really struggling with that. Key? No, he survives this with like 130% or something like that. He just lives forever. He killed my Pac at like 75% ( 150% upair rage).

These are the matchups I struggle most with at the moment. Anyone else? Any tips?

Falco: First think about how you killed him then reply back to meh
Sheik: Hmmm this is a hard one... Charging fruit counters bouncing fish.. My tips are too use bell and side-b often and accurately. Do you have customs on? I suggest on-fire hydrant. Also never forget about that key.
Remember, her up-special has starting up lag..if you were to throw fruit/side-b/down-b/nair/bair stages like her during that..
King DDD: I understand why this is hard, you would think DDD would be like DK, Charizard, and easy to juggle but not really. Is it possibly because of those intimidating jumps of his? He has arguably the best midair jumps in the game, with a fast ascent and a long hang-time, combined with fast-falling creates a invisible wall-of-pain which is directly influenced by our minds. Basically, be aggressive. As for fruits, use the first three A LOT. They are all good for pressure and cover most of the trajectories DDD will attack from. Cherries have long lasting hitboxes so use them to prevent gordo-tosses. DDD looking for a overhead fast-falled fair? Just have a bell ready, then use side-b. Because of his early killing uair, try out the explosive hydrant to make him respect you.

 

[Tetz]

Falco: First think about how you killed him then reply back to meh

Well an on stage hydrant will force him to recover low, because the water will push him back. Then, gimping should not be that hard, like a stage spike bair. However, most Falcos are aware of that and are able to tech that ****. Basically, gimping and smash reads were my main ways to kill him. Apple, Melon, Bell and Key were all hard to set up, simply because his reflect options are hard to deal with, like I said before D:

 

[Jay-kun]

Well an on stage hydrant will force him to recover low, because the water will push him back. Then, gimping should not be that hard, like a stage spike bair. However, most Falcos are aware of that and are able to tech that ****. Basically, gimping and smash reads were my main ways to kill him. Apple, Melon, Bell and Key were all hard to set up, simply because his reflect options are hard to deal with, like I said before D:

bait an air dodge and use side-b or aerial?

 

[Nu~]

Well an on stage hydrant will force him to recover low, because the water will push him back. Then, gimping should not be that hard, like a stage spike bair. However, most Falcos are aware of that and are able to tech that ****. Basically, gimping and smash reads were my main ways to kill him. Apple, Melon, Bell and Key were all hard to set up, simply because his reflect options are hard to deal with, like I said before D:

Bait a reflector, key. Or use a bell trick.
Throw a bell upwards, catch it, then do this:

set hydrant and walk off->Throw bell up->approach opponent with fair, fsmash, ftilt whole water pushes you and the bell-> bell stuns, hit him with a smash attack)

Here's an example: http://youtu.be/awVgg9Ytab0
I perform it around 3:29

 

[makemesmellbad]

Just be patient :I

 

[fromundaman]

As presented on Abadango's YouTube channel, Pac can, in fact, edge cancel off of his Hydrant and edge cancel his Power Pellet's recoil bounce.
This new tech could possibly make his hydrant play much faster, and his edge guarding can now cover a much larger, more intimidating distance. This means Pac's already monstrous gimping ability is suddenly even more powerful, being able to launch his hydrant much faster and cover more area with active hitboxes (as well as a point with super armor) along edges. If we can figure out ways to implement this tech to a multitude of setups, this could change Pac-Man's viability by a marginal sum.

I didn't know about the hydrant ledge cancel and will be working that into my game, but the Side-B cancel is something I've been using since 3DS. Its only use that I've found is to safely return to the ground when being juggled. It is very effective for this though, especially since you can kind of "fake out" the opponent if you make your bounce hit the water since it will instead send you away from the hydrant (Although no cancel on that one).


Also since I saw Abandago do it but don't see anyone talking about this, you can special cancel fruit charge in the air by tapping shield then the special you want to do almost simultaneously. This is really useful.

 

[fabz97]

Also since I saw Abandago do it but don't see anyone talking about this, you can special cancel fruit charge in the air by tapping shield then the special you want to do almost simultaneously. This is really useful.

ive been wanting to know how to do this since i saw it at apex, cheers bro

 

[fromundaman]

ive been wanting to know how to do this since i saw it at apex, cheers bro

Yeah spent like an hour in training mode trying to figure it out after seeing Abadango do it. Fruit charge canceled into Hydrant is pretty sweet. Now I need to learn the ledge cancel on hydrant and that could really start to get stupid.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey guys, the Toon Link board is currently discussing the Pacman match-up and will be discussing it until March 14. If you have anything to add, say so here.

 

[Galaxian]

If there is ANY character that gives me trouble, that's R.O.B. He's just annoying to face, a little. As Pac, I can do okay, but the MU still seems difficult. Maybe it's because my friend picks Battlefield all the time when he goes ROB, screw off Cheese

Basically, how should I deal with him as Pac-Man? Hold onto a gyro and flush him with fruit? I don't do the MU much but if I can get tips on how to face that campy ass robot I'd be grateful.

How's the Pac/Villager MU as well? My dying fear of them stealing my fruit prevents me from picking Pac against a Villager.

 

[Paper Maribro]

If there is ANY character that gives me trouble, that's R.O.B. He's just annoying to face, a little. As Pac, I can do okay, but the MU still seems difficult. Maybe it's because my friend picks Battlefield all the time when he goes ROB, screw off Cheese

Basically, how should I deal with him as Pac-Man? Hold onto a gyro and flush him with fruit? I don't do the MU much but if I can get tips on how to face that campy *** robot I'd be grateful.

How's the Pac/Villager MU as well? My dying fear of them stealing my fruit prevents me from picking Pac against a Villager.

Pac/ROB most of us feel is in our favour. To be expected though, some Pac's have it as their worst MU. From my point of view, people are playing against ROB wrong. ROB feels comfortable when the opponent is trying to camp him. Don't. Camping ROB is the biggest no-no you can do. His gyro and laser will make short work of any camping attempt by any character, especially Pac's. You have to be up in his face and exploit his, now, much weaker range.

I haven't got any offline experience of the MU and it's not one I've played a lot, so I'm afraid I can't go into more detail.

As for Villager, I'd say it's close to even. It's tough though. If you're worried about him pocketing fruits, drop more hydrants and abuse the speed of the key. If he's reaching for pockets when you have the key charged, you can punish the end lag of the whiff. You can also charge BF while he has the fruit in his pocket, forcing the villager player into acting. Power pellet recovery isn't something I've employed much into my game but is something that should prove useful with the relatively slow gyroids. I wouldn't recommend trying to PP slingshots though.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Pac/ROB most of us feel is in our favour. To be expected though, some Pac's have it as their worst MU. From my point of view, people are playing against ROB wrong. ROB feels comfortable when the opponent is trying to camp him. Don't. Camping ROB is the biggest no-no you can do. His gyro and laser will make short work of any camping attempt by any character, especially Pac's. You have to be up in his face and exploit his, now, much weaker range.

Personally, I must agree with Maribro here. R.O.B's tools are more suited to distancing himself from his adversaries and taking advantage of it, but he generally isn't as good up close when compared to Pac.
The overall trick to beating a R.O.B is to try and get up close and rush him down - remember, he's a fairly heavy character with excellent recovery (distance-wise, that is), so he's going to survive unless you abuse Pac-Man's incredible gimping and great combo abilities.
Also, remember that trampoline is your friend in this MU - R.O.B is fairly easy to combo in the air due to his large-ish size and fairly laggy aerial moves. Just try to get him from behind or below to take advantage of his slower B-Air/D-Air - Your F-Air and U-Air are quicker overall when compared to R.O.B's moves and you're more likely to get a small victory against him.
As another note, I'm also not too good with explaining this MU theory wise, so for all I know, this information could be slightly wrong. Sorry.

 

[Jay-kun]

One thing... power-pellet-blocking tech...

 

[makemesmellbad]

Pac has a fairly well-rounded matchup against almost the entire roster just because of his sheer versatility. Against a Villager, I don't change up my play at all, just because Villager has a tough time getting stage control as fast as Pac does. Fruits for harassment (don't be afraid of pockets, it means they can't use invincibility tech with it anymore until they ditch the fruit), Hydrants for bait and mixups, and trampolines because Villager's aerials limit his/her options for ground control. As long as you play more defensively than your opponent, Villager isn't too much of a threat. Remember to take into account that Villager has a lot of options like Pac. If Villager pockets Hydrant, Pac still has a huge advantage, because Villager can only launch the Hydrant from pocket if he/she caught one that was already launched. Because of this, figure out whether your opponent is pocket happy, and then, if so, approach from the air and drop a Hydrant in front of him/her. They'll pocket it, and you'll have, essentially, safe fruit play for 30 seconds or until they ditch it. Remember that Hydrant is almost always more effective for baiting than anything else. People see something that they can use against their opponent, and suddenly, they've developed tunnel vision.

R.O.B. is a different story, but he is less of a problem. R.O.B.'s aerial combos are based on u-air and f-air, so, like Nimbus said, do crossups on the ground to get behind him and use RAR f-airs on landings (don't frequent them, though, the opponent can catch on), cherries on gyros and off-stage to gimp, and try to refrain from launching hydrant too much. R.O.B.'s reflector can be angled to cover just about every launching Hydrant option Pac has. Instead, try dropping one on the ground and using PP into the floor to go into your downed state. Let the water push you under R.O.B.'s lasers and gyros so you can approach with rolls, get ups, and get up attacks. This is a great mixup approach that works on lots of characters that don't have too much low ground coverage, and R.O.B. is so tall that the only definite way you can be punished for this is if he reacts with d-smash and clanks, but even then, an uncharged d-smash will not stun Pac long enough for R.O.B. to get any serious punishment off. A d-tilt could catch you if your opponent reacts fast enough, but keep in mind that Pac is all about mixups. Use everything in different ways each match and you'll do just fine.

 

[Jay-kun]

Also, beware of R.O.B.'s and Megaman's jump-canceled throw traps. btw ROB can b-reverse/wavebounce ALL his moves , and he has a tech like diddy where he can b-reverse cancel neutral-b in the air. It's kinda dumb, ROB is a char you DO NOT want to camp against, but with JC throw traps and jab traps and the deadly u-throw's, it makes him OP at close range, too... it's like a stalemate if not a checkmate. Last thing, can Villager push away fruits with water from the pail?

 

[makemesmellbad]

Last thing, can Villager push away fruits with water from the pail?

He can, but if he does, it takes away the hit box if thrown with B, leaving him open if he takes a bait.

 

[/u/giggity-gooo]

What do we think about this matchup?

Villager can pocket all of the following:
-Pacman's Trampoline
-Pacman's Side Special
-Pacman's Fruit
-Pacman's Hydrant

Playing a good Villager can defiantly be a struggle

Let's try and find a way to fix that!

​

 

[Nu~]

Villager is cake.
We can use another hydrant of he pockets it and we can keep charging fruit if villager has the fruit on his pocket.
Our side B eats his lloid rocket, and we have a much better close range game. We force villager to approach, and destroy him in midrange or close range.

This matchup isn't hard

 

[Paper Maribro]

So long as you never let the Villager get the advantage, it's not so bad. Villager with a stock lead is really hard work to over come though because if he gets you off stage you're basically dead with how gimpable our recovery is (in this MU anyway). Pocket hydrants kill stupid early so always try and use them against the Villager player. Pocket is probably not really that big a deal in this MU if you play it smartly. If they pocket a fruit, immediately start charging. This will (literally ) force their hand. Key is a god send in this MU. It pierces just about everything the villager can throw at you (except maybe a sweetspot fair/bair but idk).

I'd call the MU even to be honest, just make sure you always charge for key and always, ALWAYS ban BF.

 

[Nu~]

So long as you never let the Villager get the advantage, it's not so bad. Villager with a stock lead is really hard work to over come though because if he gets you off stage you're basically dead with how gimpable our recovery is (in this MU anyway). Pocket hydrants kill stupid early so always try and use them against the Villager player. Pocket is probably not really that big a deal in this MU if you play it smartly. If they pocket a fruit, immediately start charging. This will (literally ) force their hand. Key is a god send in this MU. It pierces just about everything the villager can throw at you (except maybe a sweetspot fair/bair but idk).

I'd call the MU even to be honest, just make sure you always charge for key and always, ALWAYS ban BF.

Am I the only pac-main that likes BF?
As long as I'm not fighting ZSS

 

[Firedemon0]

Am I the only pac-main that likes BF?
As long as I'm not fighting ZSS

You are not, I just posted about this in the other thread. The movement tricks Pac-man can accomplish are no joke on BF.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I just find the platforms get in the way of hydrant drops (the little jump can often end up placing them in awkward positions where you don't want them), the bell and z dropping which are all fundamentally easier with less things around. It's also Villager's best stage so not one I recommend in this MU at all.

 

[LanceStern]

I gotta agree it's not a hard matchup at all. They get overwhelmed if we go aggressive. You can stay in close combat range and jab/fair/hydrant them all day. If you start running around them throwing out aerials they have trouble keeping up.

Let them pocket a fruit... they don't know what to do with it. Then we're free to hydrant them all the time.

Don't be predictable in when you throw your fruit. Everytime they try to run and camp is an opportunity for you to charge up a key. I personally take a double-jump or two to make sure the slingshot can't interrupt my charging

Honestly Villager can't keep up. The only thing that keeps them in the match is their slingshot

 

[Firedemon0]

I just find the platforms get in the way of hydrant drops (the little jump can often end up placing them in awkward positions where you don't want them), the bell and z dropping which are all fundamentally easier with less things around. It's also Villager's best stage so not one I recommend in this MU at all.

Except Hydrant can go through platforms, the glitch is still in the game. Bell is best used as an edge guard tool on BF. I find the Villager match-up to be even. In a customs meta, Pac-man is one of the few characters that timber counter does not directly influence. I've covered the matchup before, in the match up thread, where this should be asked.

 

[Nu~]

Call me a masochist, but I'm enjoying the rosalina matchup now. GP is fun to play with.

GP is incredibly punishable in mid range. If she tries to use it on my fruit in mid range, I just pick it up with a dash attack for a free z drop and free damage. Rosa should never use GP on the hydrant because if he are within a 1/3 of the distance of FD close to her, we can punish it (who cares about its low cooldown if the move lasts a year long)
I'm starting to think that Rosa's GP might be worse than the average reflector because of how laggy and nonoffensive it is. As long as you stay within mid range, her GP only helps you by giving you your fruit back as a z droppable item.
Keys and melons are your best friends. The key eats luma and blows rosa away, and in combination with the hydrant, it's an instant luma destroyer. You have to use the key at mid range or closer however, so that you can catch it once it hits the ground and she ran aims in the GP animation.
Any further and you just gave rosa your key.

The melon is good because you can run with it. If rosa GPs, then you can pick it up quickly with a dash attack since you are so close to it. If she shields, Luma gets blown back, and you can recatch the melon.

Rosa's uair loses to hydrant. This is pretty big, because rosa can't juggle us well like she can to any other character. If she baits the hydrant and uses an aerial GP, then ff nair her, or use the time to escape the area right above her.

GP only forces us to play a more mid range/CQC game, but it doesn't hinder us in any way. We shouldn't camp with pac-man anyway.

Now for Rosa's CQC.
She outranges us, it's pretty obvious. But her attacks last for centuries. If you powershield her nair, you can immediately follow up with a nair of your own or a double fair into nair. This is what makes the trampoline so amazing in this matchup. She can't approach us safely, and she is too slow to catch our landing. Fight rosa in the air, only if you are in her face. Stick to the ground if you are a distance away so that you can play the punish game. Her dair can be punished OoS by trampoline, her uair can be punished by the hydrant, her fair should never be used as an approach due to its landing lag and weird hitbox, and her nair can be punished out of a powershield or shield drop.

Fighting so many high ranking rosa players on smash ladder has changed me, I don't fear rosa any longer.

 

[Nu~]

Indeed, most of the time Villager won't be holding the fruit. If you're at kill percent, he'll hold it to try to kill you (Apple, Orange, Bell, Key, maybe Lemon) in which case you have other things to do than to charge fruits anyway (except if he's at kill percent too), and you can take advantage of it.

If you're not at kill percent, he won't hold it. He won't keep it either; it's better to throw them back asap because that let's him pocket hydrants who are a more dangerous threat and catch/immediatly throw any other fruits you use.

Villager doesn't care if the fruits don't hit when he throws them back (most of the time) because it's a defensive option before anything else in this MU. The pocket simply negates any projectile that would help you. If you throw them at him, he loses nothing by going for the pocket. It's a pretty-decent-reward-zero-risk move almost every time. If he throws them back at you, if forces you to dodge them, putting you in a worse position he can take advantage of and rendering you ''useless'' for like half a second that he can use to set up/do his things, or you take shield damage. Villager doesn't take shield damage by pocketing, while you do when you shield the fruits he throws back. That's the difference. Any safe hit that does shield damage is considered good in this game, that's why projectiles in general are good. Villager can abuse that while you can't, and it's an essential part of Pac's gameplay. This is why pocket is good against us. It basically renders our hydrant launching/fruit throwing useless. Even if you throw two projectiles at him, like a key and an hydrant, pocket has invincibility frames so he can pocket one and not get hit by the other. As you said, and having said all that, that doesn't necessarily mean the MU is in his favor, but I just think you underevaluated pocket's power. You have to play much more conservatively with your B moves, and try to surprise him with them, or use them when it's really advantageous, as opossed to throwing them ''randomly'' like in other MUs. You actually have something to lose if you do that. At least, as someone who played both Villager and Pac a lot, that's how I view it.

True, this is a stage thread after all. My bad. But I'd be glad to continue this discussion in the MU thread.

I agree with your point on ROB but I still have a difficult time with Villager on Duck Hunt. He can space with well with Fair and Trip Seed. Is it a horrible match up? No, but I wouldn't say it's even either, but let's just talk about that in the Matchup thread (I'm actually really curious on the Villager Matchup)

You don't want to throw out fruit randomly anyway because oponents can just shield-> air dodge to grab your fruit. We don't have a super spammable projectile, the fruits are more useful for helping you adapt to your situation. If he pockets it, charge immediately. No skin off your nose. If he holds it, he loses all of his nuetrals while we can rush him down. I practice using Pac-Man without fruit, and no, we re not useless without our fruit. People think, "oh, now I can run away and he can't do anything about it!". If your goal was to run away, you could have done that from the start. You will get hit eventually because running and rolling isn't a good strategy against an opponent with Pac-Man's agility. Our projectiles aren't pit's arrows; we can't hit you from anywhere.
When villager has our fruit in his hand, he can do very few things.

Shoot a lloid: Power pellet blocks it and heals us for 2%
Plant a sprout: cover it with a hydrant and get back in his face. Villagers are my favorite character to fight on smash ladder for a reason. It's a thinking game where the smarter opponent will win. Neither of us can completely stop the other's options, but we can limit them.

Fair and bair spacing is great until you realize that your fair or nair can stop them.

Pocket can't limit our options without limiting his. If he pockets a fruit, he can't pocket a hydrant. If he holds a fruit, we can bum rush him. If he throws the fruit, throw a hydrant down to meat shield it, and then dtilt it at him. It is also very unintelligent for a villager to pocket a hydrant unless he uses it offstage. Putting it on the stage just gives us a 26% death machine due to villager's difficulty with knocking the hydrant down. Bowling balls land on top of it if you are too close, and he has to hug the hydrant for dtilt to work, then we just shield grab or use fruit during his cool down.

Im not underestimating him, I'm trying to show that villager can't shut us down effectively.

 

[COLINBG]

You don't want to throw out fruit randomly anyway because oponents can just shield-> air dodge to grab your fruit. We don't have a super spammable projectile, the fruits are more useful for helping you adapt to your situation.

That's why I put randomly in quotation marks. I only meant that Villager has an easier time catching it than other characters, so you should be more cautious about it.

If he pockets it, charge immediately. No skin off your nose.

Yes.

If he holds it, he loses all of his nuetrals while we can rush him down. I practice using Pac-Man without fruit, and no, we re not useless without our fruit. People think, "oh, now I can run away and he can't do anything about it!". If your goal was to run away, you could have done that from the start. You will get hit eventually because running and rolling isn't a good strategy against an opponent with Pac-Man's agility. Our projectiles aren't pit's arrows; we can't hit you from anywhere.

When villager has our fruit in his hand, he can do very few things.

Shoot a lloid: Power pellet blocks it and heals us for 2%
Plant a sprout: cover it with a hydrant and get back in his face.

True, and you shouldn't play Pac campy and run away. That's not what he was meant to do. Leave that to Toon Link. But he usually won't hold it anyway, except, as I said, if you're at kill percent, in which case you have to be more cautious about rushing him because a mistake means you die. You can't simply go in. I don't see any other situation where he would hold the fruit, really.

Villagers are my favorite character to fight on smash ladder for a reason. It's a thinking game where the smarter opponent will win. Neither of us can completely stop the other's options, but we can limit them

It's indeed up there as one of the more enjoyable MUs. Pac dittos are fun too, and I really enjoy playing versus Rosalinas or Toon Links, but Villager too. The mindgames are strong.

Fair and bair spacing is great until you realize that your fair or nair can stop them.

They come out quick though. A well placed Villager Bair is hard to react to. But I'll give it to Pac here.

Pocket can't limit our options without limiting his.

This is where I disagree:

If he pockets a fruit, he can't pocket a hydrant.
That's why it's best to throw the fruit right away.

If he holds a fruit, we can bum rush him.
He won't hold a fruit for long enough to do that, or at leats not safely. I'm not saying we can't do that, but it's a little risky.

If he throws the fruit, throw a hydrant down to meat shield it, and then dtilt it at him.
I believe throwing a pocketed fruit is faster than laying an hydrant and Bairing it. He can also just pocket the hydrant. Edit: My bad, I read that wrong. But don't you have to be close to Dtilt? And do you have time to jump off the hydrant to do that?

It is also very unintelligent for a villager to pocket a hydrant unless he uses it offstage. Putting it on the stage just gives us a 26% death machine due to villager's difficulty with knocking the hydrant down. Bowling balls land on top of it if you are too close, and he has to hug the hydrant for dtilt to work, then we just shield grab or use fruit during his cool down.
You can't Fsmash it, but I never had a problem Dtilting it, to be honest. And a double Ftilt is also fast, and works. It's not significantly longer than any other character doing a Fsmash.

Im not underestimating him, I'm trying to show that villager can't shut us down effectively.

He can't shut us down completely/effectively. I agree with that. But he can and will force us to think before we do things. It's not like facing a Ganon or a DK (no disrespect). The pocket is like a reflector, if not arguably better. Think about Villager as a defensive Fox that actually works.

 

[Reaper Talk]

What are your opinions on trees? (regular and counter-tree)

 

[Nu~]

Agreed. And awesome, someone else likes fighting rosalinas. I wouldn't be surprised if that matchup ended up even as Pac players adapt to the GP and play a more bait and punish game.

What are your opinions on trees? (regular and counter-tree)

Regular is useless. It's a great ledgeguard, but takes years to set up. Plus, we can cover both sprouts with a hydrant or trampoline.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Regular is useless. It's a great ledgeguard, but takes years to set up. Plus, we can cover both sprouts with a hydrant or trampoline.

That's a pretty closed minded view of it. There's more to the tree than that. Did you forget about the frame four, disjointed, huge shield damage giving ,kill move that the axe is? It's not even a bad edgeguard. If we get knocked far enough away, the tree needs to be respected as an option. I've been hit by it before and I really think you're over-exaggerating how slow it is to set up.

 

[Nu~]

That's a pretty closed minded view of it. There's more to the tree than that. Did you forget about the frame four, disjointed, huge shield damage giving ,kill move that the axe is? It's not even a bad edgeguard. If we get knocked far enough away, the tree needs to be respected as an option. I've been hit by it before and I really think you're over-exaggerating how slow it is to set up.

Yes, if we get knocked far away enough, but why wouldn't villager just pursue us offstage instead?
And yes, I did forget about the axe. My mistake. You didn't have to start with such a condescending tone though.

 

[COLINBG]

Agreed. And awesome, someone else likes fighting rosalinas. I wouldn't be surprised if that matchup ended up even as Pac players adapt to the GP and play a more bait and punish game.

Rosalina is imo the worst Pac MU. That's debatable, but for me it is. And that's why I enjoy it so much. It's more of a challenge than any other MU.

What are your opinions on trees? (regular and counter-tree)

Regular is useless. It's a great ledgeguard, but takes years to set up. Plus, we can cover both sprouts with a hydrant or trampoline.

Regular is good, but you can play around it. And it's not like you have to be in Villager's face to do your stuff. Just dodge it, wait until it disappears, or kill it. The axe is basically a weaker Fsmash in the air for Villager, so respect that, and respect the tree when you want to recover. Pac is good to mix up his recovery, so use that to your advantage.

I haven't seen anyone use the Super Timber yet, and I think it's the worst of the three, so I don't care much about it atm. It's like regular, but respect the hitbox more, and there's no axe to kill you.

Timber Counter is more problematic, though. Just be careful I guess. Be wary that if you're near the fully grown tree, Villager can Fair of Bair it to hit you. It doesn't have too much HP, so it's easier to kill, and you have the tools for it, so you got that going for you. As @ Nu~ said, we have the hydrant. Honestly, it's probably the best tool in the game to deal with the sapling. If there's water flowing, or even worse, fire, villager cannot go over it to be protected. This renders it almost useless if you play right. Of course respect it, but it's not as problematic with Pac as it is with other characters.

Yes, if we get knocked far away enough, but why wouldn't villager just pursue us offstage instead?

It's usually a better option, but you should also be prepared for the tree. Just in case. Also, because Pac can recover from far away, he can also throw off attacks while doing it, or take another route to evade Villager's moves. He's gimpable when he has to use his trampoline multiple times, but otherwise not so much.

 

[Nu~]

Yes, of course. But I wouldn't have it as my primary fear when I'm offstage vs villager. We know how pocket interacts with PP and trampoline.

@ Paper Maribro
I didn't even say it was a bad edgeguard , I just said it was slow. "Years" is just simple hyperbole. I don't even see the relevance of your anecdotal evidence either. Doesn't change the fact that it's a last resort option, and that it isn't very fast at all.

 

[COLINBG]

Yes, of course. But I wouldn't have it as my primary fear when I'm offstage vs villager. We know how pocket interacts with PP and trampoline.

I didn't even say it was a bad edgeguard , I just said it was slow. "Years" is just simple hyperbole.

It is slow, but it's not uncommon for a Villager to already have a watered sapling/tree near the ledge. And if you're far away, there's more than enough time to set it up.

 

[Nu~]

Well if it is pre setup, then it's a problem. If not, then I wouldn't worry that much.