Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[DrakeRowan]

Pac-Man Metagame and Matchup Discussion

Greetings Smasher! Interested in Pac-Man's competitive viability and Matchup hints? Then look no further, and welcome to the Pac-Man M & M Discussion thread! This thread will serve the purpose to discuss relevant information regarding PacMan's capability against the other of the Smash 4 roster. I'm no mod, but please keep discussion civil. Let us be courteous to newcomer smashers and veterens alike.
​

Matchup Chart
~None so far.~

Matchup Tips
vs.
Greninja Tips 1 by GeZ

vs.
Shulk Tips 1 by Rowan

vs.
Wario Tips 1 by HakujouOokami

vs. (Various)
Little Mac, Shulk, Greninja, Sonic Tips by Firedemon0

~Feel free to contribute~

Other Useful Links
Pac-Man Social/General/History Thread by Smash Daddy and others
Pac-Man FULL Moveset & Gameplay Guide w/ Advance Techs by Ptrk83
Pac-Man Video Archive by Ptrk83
Pac-Man Matchup vs XXX by Pacman9

 

[MachoCheeze]

So far, little Mac has been an incredibly hard match up for me. He's just so fast and his super armor goes through all of pac's moves and projectile.

The best thing I could think of was to use the trampoline on stage to force Mac into the air and then follow up with Uair or Fair. Even then I still have a really tough time.

 

[DrakeRowan]

So far, little Mac has been an incredibly hard match up for me. He's just so fast and his super armor goes through all of pac's moves and projectile.

The best thing I could think of was to use the trampoline on stage to force Mac into the air and then follow up with Uair or Fair. Even then I still have a really tough time.

I fought several Macs today and in addition to laying tramps, I also just spam fruit. I gotta be careful though as I've seen Mac's grab the fruit which prevents PacMan from spawning anymore unless the Mac tosses it. Water Hydrant is good, but I find at times Mac's just knock the hydrant away with one of his smashes.

Aside from that, I prefer letting him do the approaching. I take advantage of PacMan's multihit Dash attack, especially as it has virtually no recover lag. I use it as a hit confirm. If they block, I spam UpB. If they get hit, I try to go into a Uair/Fair string.

 

[AetherEch0s]

played about 30 for glory matches with pac-man earlier
if i recall correctly I had difficulty with Mario, Bowser and Sonic. Had no trouble with Mr G&W, Little Mac, Greninja and Sheik. I played probably 5 matches against some Mario and didn't win a single match, but I don't think he necessarily counters Pac-man, it was just a very good player. Bowser is bowser. Doesn't really matter how good you're doing he can just luck into a fsmash for a kill at any point in the game then clean up with side b. Hes easy to poke with fruit though if you could actually manage to keep your distance. Sonic is just too fast for you to keep out. You literally can't zone him so you just have to resort to punishing whatever he whiffs. Probably still not a bad matchup since you have kill moves and he doesn't if you can land them.

I had no problem whatsoever with the 3 or 4 Little Macs I got matched against. Greninja isn't a problem as long as you don't stay above or below him. His upsmash can bounce your hydrant back at you and you have no way of dealing with his down air without taking two bounces in a row. Sheik could potentially be a rough matchup for Pac-man if they spam needles to keep you from charging your fruit but none of the ones I played against really focused on doing it.

 

[CornFlakes]

I feel as if Pacman does very low damage compared to other characters. Maybe it's just me though. Also I can't seem to figure out the best way to approach other characters. Tips?

 

[MachoCheeze]

I've been playing For Glory on and off all day and faced a really good Rosalina for about 20 minutes.

One thing I noticed is that you can get Luma stuck in place by throwing a hydrant between them if they're separated. (Luma never jumping over it even when Rosalina was trying to call him back)

 

[DeusNinja]

I can't seem to kill anyone under like 130% any help with good pac kill moves? Also i cant find anything on him that gimps.

 

[DrakeRowan]

I feel as if Pacman does very low damage compared to other characters. Maybe it's just me though. Also I can't seem to figure out the best way to approach other characters. Tips?

Most of PacMan's damage will come from smart fruit and Hydrant use. By dropping Hydrant, dashing off it's end, and then B'airing, you'll find yourself getting in damage rather easily. Bouncing Hydrants can also be used to get in on opponents as well. See this post for info on ways of how the Hydrant bounces off your hits. You can also make use of his Dash Attack to build damage and to get in. Hit confirming it is the Key to avoid being punished effectively if they dodge/shield it.

I can't seem to kill anyone under like 130% any help with good pac kill moves? Also i cant find anything on him that gimps.

I personally find by far his best overall kill move is the Key. If you're looking to score early kills though USmash and FSmash is where its at. You'll have to be really on point on reading opponents though. His SideB is good too, but it's high recover lag makes it punishable on block. To make the best out of it, try angling the pellet up just before it reaches the end so Pacman goes in the air. Doing this makes it a little harder for the opponent to punish. Going off the edge and using SideB in a circular/semi-circular motions also seems to help. PacMan lacks a natural spike/meteor smash, so his gimping options include fruit, nair, fair, and bair shenanigans. PacMan's Fair in particular can be used to frame trap airdodging opponent's, leading to guaranteed Aerial follow ups. PacMan's recovery is very good, so do not be afraid to jump off that stage to land hits.

 

[AetherEch0s]

the green fruit and apple are good kill moves too. you can even edgeguard with the apple fairly well against certain characters.

 

[S3R4PH]

PacMan's Fair in particular can be used to frame trap airdodging opponent's, leading to guaranteed Aerial follow ups. PacMan's recovery is very good, so do not be afraid to jump off that stage to land hits.

I'm intrigued by this. Can you elaborate on the frame trap aspect? I'm having a hard time being on point with super low air attacks so a pointer on how you do it/what to do it with on the 3ds would be cool too.

My biggest weakness at the moment is that I telegraph some fruit and hydrant projectile setups, but I never thought of just b'airing at the hydrant.

I never thought Pac-Man was going to be my main, but he is really shaping up to be due to his fun playstyle. Feels comfortable and perfect, well-honed.

 

[DrakeRowan]

I'm intrigued by this. Can you elaborate on the frame trap aspect? I'm having a hard time being on point with super low air attacks so a pointer on how you do it/what to do it with on the 3ds would be cool too.

Say for instance an opponent is trying to get back onto the stage from the far right. Have PacMan jump off the stage and Fair them. If they airdodge, air chase them, then either Nair, Bair, or Uair depending on the opponent's position (beware using Dair). It's something that is better shown rather than telling it. =/

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Hey guys, I hope you can excuse the lack of a Pac-Man head icon on my mini-profile. He's my co-main; my main is R.O.B., and he and Pac-Man are going to be the characters I use the most. Though since Pac-Man is newer, I'm probably going to spend more time learning his metagame, and he'll likely be the character I enter my first Smash 4 tournament with.

Anyway, I wanted to discuss the Fire Hydrant, the Bell, and the Apple. The Fire Hydrant and Apple both help with Pac-Man's landing because they come out quickly; in the case of the hydrant, it's sent directly below him, and the Apple is launched at a downward angle. The Apple would be better at edgeguarding I think if it had semi-spike properties instead of sending opponents upward. The Bell's paralysis effect can allow for a forward or down smash at high percents (I don't know the exact number, but it's like 80+%), but only if Pac-Man is really close to his opponent. What do you guys think?

 

[MachoCheeze]

The Bell is really awesome against Palutena. At least the ones I've played against cause they all try to spam their reflector wall thing. If you space and time correctly it flies up over the wall and gives you a chance to make a move. They never seem to suspect it.

 

[AGES]

Anybody else struggling against Greninja and Falcon? They always seem to just go rushing in on my hydrants and hitting them before I get the chance, and setting up trampolines doesn't do much to help as both don't mind it much, they can easily jump over them and smack me or my hydrant with a knee of justice or water sword or whatever

 

[MrWatchandLearn]

I've found pac-man struggles a bit against projectile heavy characters. For example i have faced links who have full charged arrows knock away my hydrants before i can b-air it towards them

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

I'm having the most trouble with Villager because he can pocket the Hydrant (even when it's grounded), the Power Pellet, and the Bonus Fruit. Villager's insane projectile game seems to quash all of my other approach options too, but Villager does that to just about every projectile-based fighter.

 

[Pacack]

A good Palutena absolutely murdered me. I think she has inescapable combos on the Pac.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I think I struggle most against characters with both disjoints and counters, like Shulk. Fighting them close-up is a nightmare, and a good opponent can shrug off hydrants and fruit with their counters and well-timed shields (which are strong enough to make approaching plenty easy in this game).

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So from what I've heard, Pac-Man has a decent seperation tactic for Rosalina and Luma. Apparently Luma can't jump over Pac-man's hydrant even when Rosalina calls for him. I haven't really tested this myself but that would help make for an interesting match up if it's consistent.

 

[MachoCheeze]

So from what I've heard, Pac-Man has a decent seperation tactic for Rosalina and Luma. Apparently Luma can't jump over Pac-man's hydrant even when Rosalina calls for him. I haven't really tested this myself but that would help make for an interesting match up if it's consistent.

Yeah that's right! I made a post about it here earlier.

 

[AetherEch0s]

I think I struggle most against characters with both disjoints and counters, like Shulk. Fighting them close-up is a nightmare, and good opponent can shrug off hydrants and fruit with their counters and well-timed shields (which are strong enough to make approaching plenty easy in this game).

same, counter spamming ikes and shulks wreck my pac-man

 

[DrakeRowan]

If characters with counters are giving you the times, try throwing a bit more. PacMan's throw isn't as balls as people are making it out to be. (i.e it's great for a quick punish). Spamming fruit from long range also helps to, especially when dealing with disjointed hitboxes. As long as the PacMan player play the defensive game, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

 

[coolginyu]

I've found ZSS to be Pac's best matchup so far on Glory (~100 matches). You can out space all her whip based attacks with projectiles and hydrants. Cherry comes out faster than her stun gun can charge to travel any decent distance, and clanks with it. Pac-man also has a great approach option- if you short hop and side-b, it puts you in ZSS's blind spot, and you can angle it for mix-ups.

Little Mac is the one I have the toughest time with. Pac just doesn't have many vertical launch moves and trying to charge fruits past the point where he can catch is difficult. I've yet to use tramps much as traps but it seems like Pac-Man's best option.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Is anyone else having trouble against regular Samus? (ZSS has never been a problem for me)

I have such a hard time getting around her missels and charge shot cause they're so dangerous to the hydrant.

 

[CCCM89]

I enjoy the matchup with little mac. mac's too faast sometimes, and tends to dodge roll right into my slow, slow tether grab.
only character I've had any noticable issues with were a few range spammers, but as long as I can get off a powerpellet, I can approach them easily enough. that, or hydrant dash at them.

 

[SomewhatMystia]

Definitely having a hard time against Greninja, any advice for him? Spamming fruit's out of the question since even his tiny shuriken negates it.

 

[coolginyu]

For me, Greninja is an issue of playing smarter/more patiently. Pac-Man has enough approach options that you can usually dance in and land a couple hits. Try baiting out counter and punishing, and short hop to fruit or hydrant to fruit is a decent way to bypass the shuriken. Greninja doesn't have a great recovery so Pac-Man can win a war of attrition.

 

[S3R4PH]

Definitely having a hard time against Greninja, any advice for him? Spamming fruit's out of the question since even his tiny shuriken negates it.

Keys go right through those. So do galaxians. You don't even have to wait and charge a long time, just hold b next time to resume your place between charges.

It negates and goes through the small shurikens, and go straight through the fully charged ones.

 

[AGES]

Keys go right through those. So do galaxians. You don't even have to wait and charge a long time, just hold b next time to resume your place between charges.

It negates and goes through the small shurikens, and go straight through the fully charged ones.

The bigger issue though, in my case at least, is when to charge them. Especially with these stages its very difficult for pac to charge fruit on quick offensive characters like Greninja who can just rush right in on you, hydrant doesn't help too much either.

I did get a key vs a ninja player once and used it to bypass a shuriken although strangely enough the key just passed through the ninja as well wtf

 

[MachoCheeze]

I just got my ass whooped by a Yoshi multiple times as Pac. (Managed to get 1 W in there tho).

Yoshi help, anyone?

 

[S3R4PH]

I had a great set of For Glory tonight. Here is one for those who want to see what the Robin matchup is like so you don't make the same mistakes I made.

You'll be able to see what I mean by charging up for Galaxian's and Keys. I still have my fair share of execution errors though lol; my Pac-Man is a work in progress but he's getting stronger!

 

[CornFlakes]

Shulk is an annoying piece of ****. Even if you're outplaying the other person, Shulk gains so much advantage over pacman as the damage percentages go up (which happens because Pac doesn't really launch well.)

 

[Nu~]

Shulk is an annoying piece of ****. Even if you're outplaying the other person, Shulk gains so much advantage over pacman as the damage percentages go up (which happens because Pac doesn't really launch well.)

But shulk hates projectiles and has trouble approaching without getting his laggy aerials punished. I say to keep your distance, use the fruit and hydrant wisely, and then come in for the kill

 

[CornFlakes]

But shulk hates projectiles and has trouble approaching without getting his laggy aerials punished. I say to keep your distance, use the fruit and hydrant wisely, and then come in for the kill

A good shulk knows how to use Speed and Jump modes to deny Pacman breathing room. That's the problem with keeping distance, and it's not like Pacman's projectiles are uncatchable or anything. I wish I had match footage so you could see what I'm talking about.

 

[DrakeRowan]

A good shulk knows how to use Speed and Jump modes to deny Pacman breathing room. That's the problem with keeping distance, and it's not like Pacman's projectiles are uncatchable or anything. I wish I had match footage so you could see what I'm talking about.

This is where trampoline comes in. Having one in front of PacMan will force the Shulk to either approach by air or just wait till it disappears. If he's coming by air you can either shield and punish his telegraphd laggy aerials, or in case he comes in with his Nair, OoS UpB - forcing him to approach by air yet again. If Shulk caught your fruit you can either just stall behind a hydrant/tramp (if you have the lead), knock Hydrants in his face, or go on the offense as he can't use his regular attacks unless he tosses/Z-Drops the fruit.

Do not try to out space Shulk with Ftilt/Dtilt, he'll win. Instead, handle Shulk as if you're handling Little Mac. Get him in the air as he can't do much aside from counter as all of PacMan's aerials are faster. PacMan is arguably one of the best (if not the best) character when it comes to forcing aerial approaches from the opponent. Just take advantage of Shulk's subpar air game and the match is easily in your favor.

If his counter is giving you the blues, then utilize PacMan's throw more.

 

[CornFlakes]

This is where trampoline comes in. Having one in front of PacMan will force the Shulk to either approach by air or just wait till it disappears. If he's coming by air you can either shield and punish his telegraphd laggy aerials, or in case he comes in with his Nair, OoS UpB - forcing him to approach by air yet again. If Shulk caught your fruit you can either just stall behind a hydrant/tramp (if you have the lead), knock Hydrants in his face, or go on the offense as he can't use his regular attacks unless he tosses/Z-Drops the fruit.

Do not try to out space Shulk with Ftilt/Dtilt, he'll win. Instead, handle Shulk as if you're handling Little Mac. Get him in the air as he can't do much aside from counter as all of PacMan's aerials are faster. PacMan is arguably one of the best (if not the best) character when it comes to forcing aerial approaches from the opponent. Just take advantage of Shulk's subpar air game and the match is easily in your favor.

If his counter is giving you the blues, then utilize PacMan's throw more.

It's not really the counter. But I will try forcing him into the air more.

 

[Little Pac]

How do you guys approach Dedede? The gordos are such a ***** to deal with and the recovery frames on his smashes are very difficult to punish. I've only experienced this on For Glory. Could it be I'm not used to the lag so I'm missing these punishes by a few frames?

 

[CCCM89]

use your Fair to punish bad smashes, or if you manage to get into the hit radius of his smashes, short hop a Nair, or bair if you're a decent distance away. each of these, other then Fair will knock him away. Fair is more to approach and combo into Nair. the come out fast enoguh that usually, even if dedede starts up his standing combo, you'll just trade a hit for a Nair to the face.

that aside, if he's using gordos, counter with a key, apple and/or melon. or while he's stil sending out the gordo, side B into him. as long as you don't charge it, you'll get the power pelet in time for the sweet sweet invincibility frames to catch his gordo. also, hydrant into a u-turn side B lets yo approach and combo into a hydrant for about 22% damage. Dedede's large enough that even if he blocks you and/or grabs you, the hydrant will still hit him away, and if he blocks/dodges both, you have enough time to recover and roll away.

 

[KiBom]

Toon Link is a tricky matchup. He can grounded up B immediately out of a shielded dash attack and his quicker projectiles mostly nullify our fruit outside of key.

 

[Meiwaku]

Toon Link is a tricky matchup. He can grounded up B immediately out of a shielded dash attack and his quicker projectiles mostly nullify our fruit outside of key.

Funny, I played a Toon Link right after a Link today. I had no problem with Link whatsoever. Just a little patience got me around his projectiles. Toon Link guy seemed to be about the same skill level but I got wrecked. The difference? TL destroyed hydrants consistently with a single hit (f-tlt?). His Uair even out-prioritized hydrant being executed. Without that option, it was much harder to avoid his projectile game.

Also got wrecked by two Yoshis today, one seemed about the same skill as me, one seemed pretty exceptional. I couldn't really approach either one.