Ottawa Ontario Canada HD Remix

[PND]

Well, Sakurai pretty much admitted that Melee was a mistake. He had no desire to make such a competitive game, and he specifically took out the "exploits" that made it what it was. It;s not that he made Brawl suck, he had wanted Melee to end up like Brawl all along.

 

[KirbyKaze]

He should have realized how stupid his plan was from the start then.

The sheer mass of people who wanted to get good at Melee but didn't bother joining the community because it was hard to learn (which, IMHO, is ****ing pathetic because Melee isn't even hard to learn) was just going to make them switch over to Brawl as soon as it came out. There was going to be competition in it from the get-go. And there was going to be no way around it.

His fanbase was too big to avoid competition. Something incredibly stupid would be needed. Like a 4% trip rate. Or no item switch.

 

[jan]

Was he ever quoted as saying that Melee's exploits were taken out intentionally?

Since those things were a side effect of the game's physics, I assumed they disappeared in the transition to Brawl's engine.

 

[PND]

Yeah, but there were things sort of like L-Cancelling in the demo that didn't make it into the final version, so obviously the design team was aware.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wavelanding and wavedashing are physics exploits. Those being removed could be intentional or simple incompatibility with the game's engine.

Others, however, can be discussed. Dash dancing, for instance, was nerfed for the finished product so it is essentially useless.

In the demo there was useful dash dancing, however.

The demo had CCing, a technique introduced in Melee, in the finished product if there is CCing it's cleverly disguised as doing nothing.

L-cancel is gone altogether, in the demo there was an autocancel that worked on any aerial where you'd SH FF and then do the aerial it would autocancel every time and they dubbed it as Brawl's "L-cancel" but that was also removed.

 

[Jazriel]

Let's change the topic to something even knowledgeable professors won't know about: Sakurai is altruism incarnate, and look what he has created! Muwahahaha!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Let's talk about the latest outbreak of cancerous super aids.

 

[PND]

Wavelanding and wavedashing are physics exploits. Those being removed could be intentional or simple incompatibility with the game's engine.

Others, however, can be discussed. Dash dancing, for instance, was nerfed for the finished product so it is essentially useless.

In the demo there was useful dash dancing, however.

The demo had CCing, a technique introduced in Melee, in the finished product if there is CCing it's cleverly disguised as doing nothing.

L-cancel is gone altogether, in the demo there was an autocancel that worked on any aerial where you'd SH FF and then do the aerial it would autocancel every time and they dubbed it as Brawl's "L-cancel" but that was also removed.

Exactly. It makes ya wonder how the metagame would be with those features left in. Maybe Metaknight wouldn't be miles above everyone else because currently he lacks lag where everyone else has it in spades. Evening the playing field might have changed A LOT.

 

[KirbyKaze]

CC would > Metaknight.

It was owning him in the demo.

But enough about Brawl.

This latest epidemic of cancerous super aids is disturbing me.

Look at these pictures.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ysgrs2

 

[flash7]

Thats my big problem with Sakurai. Smash is only competitive to those who want it to be but he went out of his way to make sure that those who enjoy competition can't enjoy it as such. I guess he hoped that with tripping introduced we'd give up the competitive smash scene.

 

[PND]

Well screw it. I'll go have my own competitive smash scene. With blackjack. And hookers. You know what? Screw the smash scene. I'm off to go play blackjack with hookers [/bender]

 

[flash7]

Have you slept at all yet?

 

[PND]

I had an hour's nap. And I have another rush job coming in in an hour, so I won't have much time to do anymore sleeping.

 

[IvanEva]

It's always so easy to see who prefers which game on Smash Boards.

Take them as two separate games and everything becomes all happy and cheerful again. I mean, the Street Fighter crowd has no problem with SFII, SFII, and various others at the same time. Melee and Brawl both have their problems but their still very fun and can both be played just as competitively. After all, is Smash Bros. played competitively because it's a 'competitive game' or just because there is a strong community (let's face it, we're ALL Nintendo fanboys here) behind it? I've been thinking, why isn't Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, Power Rangers, Rockman: The Power Battles, or Worms played at a 'competitive' level as much as Smash Bros.? Most of those are techinically better fighting games.

Cutting out things that are "too good" is precisely what a designer should do. The Brawl team (let's not put everything on this Sakurai character - that's like blaming Bush for messing up all of America) most definitely took steps to balance out the game. Bowser is better, the shine isn't broken anymore, Marth's range has been toned down, thunder has been buffed, etc. However, just like EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME IN EXISTENCE (with the possible exception of the upcoming Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe - my nipples get hard when I think about that game) at a competitive level it's not perfectly balanced. Crouch canceling didn't stop Marth so I don't see what effect it would have on Metaknight.

With the exception of tripping (which is the ONE thing I will admit has no place in any fighting game... although it IS pretty funny...), no addition/subtraction to Smash from Melee to Brawl has been a bad one. Tethers are better, grabbing the edge is much better, shielding is better, pivot grabbing is better, the roster is much better and with much less clones, the levels offer much more variety than most of Melee's battlefield-ish levels (although there are some great Melee levels that should have returned!), especially concerning counter-picks, and lastly, Marth's make-up is prettier.

In the end, I think that the hardcore Brawl-killed-Melee crew is just worried about one thing: replacement. SFIII didn't replace II, nor will IV replace III. They're all happily living together under one roof. Such is not the case (at least from what I'm seeing on these boards) with Smash. It seems like Brawl has superseded Melee and thus the Melee-exclusive players are (rightfully) upset. That's ok though; the Brawl players will feel that way November the 10th when a certain yellow ninja thows his spear into a certain tights wearing lunatic's throat.

EDIT: I'd just like to point out that, series-wise, both Smash AND Street Fighter get their collective butts outsold by a certain other, some might dare say superior, fighting game series. One so good it can take on Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman...

 

[Locke)]

Please bring that game to smashfests as soon as it's out. Game of 2008 easily.

 

[IvanEva]

Actually, and I almost killed myself when I found out (some might say that I almost did a Fatality on myself), it's only coming out on PS3 and X-Box. Dammit, it's the PS2/X-Box/Gamecube dealie all over again! The only thing that's going to be on the Wii is Tatsunoko vs. Capcom... assuming it comes out here. JAN! I need your crazy Wii hacking powers!

 

[infomon]

I'll agree that Brawl was right to remove a lot of stuff, like wavedashing, L-cancelling, etc. that didn't really add a lot except a skill gradient based on artifical "tech skill" which IMO doesn't really help anything, it's like putting a little mini-game to properly control your character.

But it's part of what made Melee more exciting, both to watch and to play -- wavedashing, and even dashdancing, just gave more options to what you can do with your character. Removing those is like removing some of the possible moveset, so we get into more rock-paper-scissors situations, rather than rock-paper-scissors-water-fire-grass-steel-wtfpokémon-counter-unusualcountercounter-waveshinespikeKO.

although I don't even remember how to play Melee anymore lol so feel free to call me out on being a n00b and misunderstanding the role of the Melee moveset on the competitive scene. (Tho I was decent back in the day.... wavedashing desynced ice climber setups ftw....)

 

[Locke)]

I believe cameron has a very shiny ps3 at his place. And a few smashfest pots later (maybe a fraction of the pot could be put away for a christmas present to cam) we could have it at his place.

 

[Suo]

I'm buying a PS3 soon as well, BUT **** MK vs DC, SF4 will grace my imaginary PS3's beautiful disk drive.

 

[PND]

I have a 360, so I'm set. Plus I have SC4.

Does anybody want to do anything tomorrow? I'm extremely down about missing this week, and I really need to practice before Niagara. Plus I need to celebrate over Wednesday's victory. Only problem: I'm so far out of the city I can't really offer a place to do it.

 

[LivewiresXe]

I'd be all for chilling tomorrow or something man, but I've gotta work the game tomorrow night so I'll be busy from like 2 until midnight. I'd also assume stuff's going on with thanksgiving and all on sunday/monday too, so that kinda takes things outta the question for then. If things change and you still want to, I dunno, get some practice or something, just let me know.

Oh, and off topic, I checked out that Futile guy you told me about and he had some really good match against a Dedede. Actually surprised me a bit with some stuff.

 

[jan]

JAN! I need your crazy Wii hacking powers!

There's a homebrew region unlocker thingy, so feel free to get Tatsunoko vs Capcom if you want.

The hard part will be finding a half decent controller to actually play it.

 

[Dice]

brawl.... lol

And i can't wait until MKvDC comes out, same with SF4 :D

 

[Fogel]

Ian, Dan, Kevin: Good to see you guys again!

Which reminds me:

Squashfest!

When? Where? Why? Who? How?

Or will you all be to busy eating turkey?

I say Sunday, goodlife, preferably early again so as not to interfere with dinner and such.

Uhh...not that I can make this or anything, but are you sure Goodlife would even be open on Thanksgiving?

 

[PND]

Any Guilty Gear fans here? The new one, Overture just came out and I haven't heard much about it (from a competitive stand point, at least) I might pick it up this week when I grab Rock Band 2. Just wondering if anyone was interested in it.
EDIT: Just found out it's not a fighter

Also: Tekken 6 announced multiplatform. And Street Fighter 4 is on the horizon.

Except I still get can't over the new Tekken character, Zafina. In the promo shots I've seen, she looks way too similar to my sister. Their names even rhyme. . .

 

[buenob]

wow, if a video game character resembles your sister, she must be smokin' hot with unproportionally large breasts (jokes)

i can see how that would be odd... when sf4 comes out anyone else down for getting good at that game with me?

i've never been a fan of tekken, but I do play KoF (mostly 11... but iori is pretty standard :D)

 

[IvanEva]

I think Cameron's right. No squashfest this Sunday. Cameron, you should come with us sometime though.

Jan, you've gotta help me get that whole homebrew thingy in now! The replay things (all one time that it was used) was good for the bi-weekly.

Tekken isn't at 6, it's at Mega Ultra Super Tekken 1 Hyper Turbo HD Remix. There's a difference. Melee is different from Brawl, SFII is different from SFIII, Mortal Kombat 5 is different from 4, etc. The Tekkens however, have been mostly the same.

 

[PND]

Tekken is the Madden of fighting games. . . but I still love it. However, button mashers can do far too well at it.

 

[LivewiresXe]

I know what you mean. There's some crazy 8 throw combo link thingy with King I remember seeing in Tekken that's like....insane sounding to pull off. I've never been a Tekken fan really. I tend to play Soul Calibur anda lot of Capcom fighters instead.

funky edit: And really, I find it hard to believe a game chick would resemble your sister, dude. Even if the thought of it is kinda funny.

 

[Suo]

i can see how that would be odd... when sf4 comes out anyone else down for getting good at that game with me?

No doubt, I really wanna play a lot of SF4, and get good at it. I'm pretty sure Harold's pumped for it as well.

 

[PND]

I'm definitely down for SF4.

 

[jan]

You guys only recorded one match? Oh well, at least we know it works. Does anyone have a video capture card and feel like recording the replay? Possibly creating an "Ottawa Smash" YouTube account for it and future videos?

I'm down for playing SF4 too, but probably won't own it until the PC version comes out. Guilty Gear is pretty fun, and I'll never understand why so many people seem to dislike it. If you've got it on PS2, bring it to the next 'fest, PNDMike.

Harold: Borrow Jobin's copy of Twilight Princess and we'll install it some time.

 

[IvanEva]

Nah, they recorded a few of them but really not that many.

Guilty Gear's lack of popularity can probably be best explained by a few of Ono's quotes in this interview: http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/917/917964p1.html In it he states that by appealing to the hardcore players he made it harder to get into SFIII. Guilty Gear, from what I've read, is even harder than SFIII to 'master' (there are cancels into cancels into fake cancels into blueberry pies into cancels) and thus turns many players away.

Of course, I personally don't like it because of it's generic silly anime characters, it being yet another Street Fighter clone (time in the middle, health bars on either side of it, super meters on the bottom...), and Marvel vs. Capcom having easier gameplay. I don't think it's bad or anything, just redundant.

Yeah, I'll be getting SFIV probably sometime in 20XX when Megaman X wakes up to find the world all ****ed up, which will be around the time it comes out on PC.

On a more Smash related note, is anybody hosting sometime this week? I feel like playing some but I won't be going to Fogel's this Friday.

 

[flash7]

We recorded a few mathces but alot of the time we forgot to save the replay. I know sometimes I just kept hititng start so we could get to the next match. We needed somebody to remind us lol.

 

[Suo]

I could potentially host this week, my room is small, and would hold 3 people other than myself at most. Someone elses place might be a better option, but if nothing else is brewing then I'll prolly have people over

 

[LivewiresXe]

20XX? That's nothing. By the end of 2009, the world will be taken over by robot masters, and they'll EACH have their own stages....whoa.

 

[Fogel]

Any Guilty Gear fans here? The new one, Overture just came out and I haven't heard much about it (from a competitive stand point, at least) I might pick it up this week when I grab Rock Band 2. Just wondering if anyone was interested in it.
EDIT: Just found out it's not a fighter

I could borrow my brother's GGXX:AC for PS2 if you want to play sometime. I don't play it too seriously though. Who do you play as? I'm best with Millia.

Also, I didn't know there was a new GG out. If it isn't a fighter, then what kind of game is it? /too-lazy-to-google-it

On a more Smash related note, is anybody hosting sometime this week? I feel like playing some but I won't be going to Fogel's this Friday.

I may be interested in hosting Thursday as well as Friday. I don't really like that I got last place this week so I may see if playing more often actually helps me. Who would be down for Thursday night?


edit: Also, I thought I multiquoted it, but I guess not...

Anyways, I may be interested in trying squash out with you guys once my fall ultimate season is over. Right now I'm playing Tuesdays and Saturdays, so I'm not sure if I want to play squash on top of that right now. However, the season's done at the end of the month, and once November hits I'll only be playing one night a week (Winter ultimate = expensive...) so I may replace my second night of ultimate with squash, assuming I like it. At the very least, I'll come out one time to see how it goes.

 

[Divine_Haze]

I think I post this here... Harold, I give you permission to put up my info so that people know who I am.

Name - Riley
E-mail - Haze_Unleashed@hotmail.com

I guess that's prolly good

 

[buenob]

you may want to write it out like 'haze underscore unleashed at hotmail dot com' so that bots cant pick up on it...

but thanks for the contact info

 

[flash7]

**** bots, always ruining it for everyone .

Squash is hella fun, especially if you like fast paced games with mindgames(ball placement).