Ottawa Ontario Canada HD Remix

[Europhoria]

LOL We're still working on the tourney, but I'm doing like super advanced scouting. With all the other OOS coming up, expect it in winter likely.

 

[Jazriel]

I have a job!

Mason: OVER 9000!!!!
Harold: NOT OVER 9000!!!!

The only true defining number.


Lolz @ TO being *******s over who plays which game. Get your head out of your *** and realize that no matter what, Quebec will always be better.

 

[PND]

Lolz @ TO being *******s over who plays which game. Get your head out of your *** and realize that no matter what, Ottawa will always be better.

Fixed. 10char

 

[LivewiresXe]

Ah, what would we do without you correcting other people's mistakes?

 

[PND]

So from what I'm hearing, apparently after HOBO11 Houston banned Metaknight. New Orleans is apparently running MKless tourneys as well.

Wow. I'm starting to think this ban may actually happen. I'm not sure where I stand on it yet, I want to wait a bit longer to see if any legitimate counters are discovered. If not, I play Falco and Snake, so I think I'll be alright.

After playing around with him a bit more, I think I've figured out what's so broken about MK. It's not the whornado, downsmash, or shuttle loop (although they are pretty high up there.) It's that glide attack. It's completely lag free and unpunishable if used correctly. I was testing it, and Glide attack into anything is unstoppable. Glide attack can kill on it's own at high percents (under 200%, but that's high for Metaknight). If shielded, grab into up throw. 13%. If not shielded, into any move he feels like. If dodged, he can land past them and Dsmash. Coupled with the lagless aerials and tilts he's pretty much a wall of offense. I don't think he's unbeatable, though. I remain cautiously optimistic as to potential Meta counters being discovered.

Also: This Friday I'll tell you guys what my big issue was, if you care to hear. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable posting it on the internet, but I don't mind sharing in person. It's behind me now, yay!

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

You didn't die(again) did you?

 

[PND]

Nah. I'm already a zombie now, what would that make me? A super zombie? Normal again?

 

[Divine_Haze]

It would make you normal again. Just remember mitch hedberg. If you remix a remix, it goes back to normal. Therefore, if you die whilst being a zombie, you become normal.

 

[PND]

Sweet. Normality. Still coming on Friday?

 

[Jazriel]

MK is broken because you can't really punish him. It's just fair -> fair -> dair -> shuttle loop -> whorenado -> fair -> dair -> dair -> dair -> triple short hop uair -> gaysauce -> I gimp you at 80%.

Just ask Derek. My Falcon his Marth, I have to work my *** off to get 1 kill. My MK his Marth, I'm bored while he's dieing. And if you do actually do something to MK, he just switches on the B spam. Whorenado -> whorenado -> whorenado -> whorenado etc.

 

[flash7]

Although most would probably be against it, one of the montreal MK players suggested that we restrict MKs B moves (done by assigning b to someting else such as attack). I think its an interesting idea and would like to test it out. It would be a nerf of sorts but im sure he'll still be top tier if not the best since his standard attacks are truly what makes him beastly.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Glad to hear everything's behind you Mike, though if you HAD died as a zombie.....wouldn't that make you one of those Crimson Head thingies that makes you stronger, faster, and with extremely bad breath?

 

[infomon]

IMO, MK's best attribute is that his attacks are generally large, disjointed, sweeping hitboxes, with almost no startup or ending lag. After messing with tornado a bunch, it doesn't bother me as much anymore, but I haven't had a lot of solid MK practice so I dunno. It seems really character-dependent whether or not the tornado's a problem.

Glide attack doesn't seem lke it should be a big problem. Lots of people think it has amazing priority but it's actually worse than his regular aerials; you can clash with the glide attack, so aerials and strong ground attacks will hit right through it. Timing/spacing against it can be very hard though because MK actually has aerial moveability during his glide... but it still reduces his options. *shrug*

As for the ban, it might actually be nice if it happens, because IMO MK should be a solidly dominant character, based on his great attributes and few weaknesses. But looking at tournament results, I don't really see it. Everyone cites Hobo11 as "proving" MK is broken.... but actually the list looks really diverse to me. I'll be really disappointed if MK gets banned prematurely because of the sheer volume of scrub-whining; even though it would also suck for Brawl if MK is stuck in a situation where he's clearly dominant but not quite ban-worthy. But if that's how Brawl goes, we can only blame Sakurai.

/rant

Edit: (moar rant!) I think artificially impairing a character like "no B moves" or using a handicap is silly. Any such solution is totally arbitrary and IMO overstates the role of the SBR and TOs in balancing the game. That was Sakurai's job. Either MK is too powerful or he's just another character... if we toy too much with the game mechanics it can just get scrub-like. Like limiting the number of chaingrabs... we stop playing Brawl and are instead playing Brawl-with-magic-rules. It cuts our community off in a bubble from the people who just play the game as-is, and may or may not want to join in on smashfests/tournaments.

/rant x2

 

[Jazriel]

Well said Infzy. MK should either be banned or let-be. I, from seeing what he can do with a fair deal of personal experience, am in favor of a ban. Either way, I'll be just like everyone else and play MK if he isn't banned. And that says something.

/wit

Unlike everyone else though, I'm going to be playing CAPTAIN FALCON some more, 'cause he's just so awesome. SHOW ME YOUR MOVES AND SHUT THE **** UP!

 

[IvanEva]

we stop playing Brawl and are instead playing Brawl-with-magic-rules. It cuts our community off in a bubble from the people who just play the game as-is,

Totally. I mean, if they end up banning Metaknight, what else might get banned? Items!? Certain stages!? I most certainly I agree with Infzy with the playing the game as-is argument.

 

[PND]

Oh man, we better not ban 2 minute time matches.

Anyway, I think we should have a discussion on this in the near future, perhaps tossing around if we would adopt a Metaknight ban if it was issued by SBR, and the pros and cons of such an issue. It's a really interesting development, and I can't wait to see how it pans out.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Well, I can see the "for"s and the "against"s of it that people might have. I mean, I can completely understand people thinking that "if items and certain stages weren't meant to be used, they wouldn't be in the game", but on the other hand, if he has all of those unfair advantages then I can understand the concern.

 

[infomon]

Totally. I mean, if they end up banning Metaknight, what else might get banned? Items!? Certain stages!? I most certainly I agree with Infzy with the playing the game as-is argument.

Siiiigh, I figured someone would bring this up. There's something categorically different between turning random items off, and telling someone not to use their B button. For one thing, in the years I played Melee casually, most people I'd play with preferred playing with items off, just because it was less random and annoying.... ie. it's a reasonably typical path to take with the game.

But banning some of a character's moves? Why not ban his shield or grab instead? If we're going to start artificially balancing the characters, why don't we use handicaps to boost Falcon and Sonic up to a competitive level? It gets very scrubby... I'd rather not entertain such directions.

 

[arsenic41]

just to let you know...the bi-weeklies won't ban Metaknight until further info on the metaknight ban shows up, or everyone else bans him.

 

[Fogel]

just to let you know...the bi-weeklies won't ban Metaknight until further info on the metaknight ban shows up, or everyone else bans him.

I'm in agreement. How many times has a Metaknight won an Ottawa biweekly? Hint for those who don't follow our results: It starts with a '0' and is a one-digit number.

 

[PND]

I'm in full agreement Randy.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Aye, that's certainly a strong point for not banning MK. I mean, if he were so broken, wouldn't like...a lot of tournaments where he's allowed be won by people using him?

 

[flash7]

I think its kinda dirty to ban certain moves. But the idea kinda spawned from mmos which obviously are different types of games. But in some mmos some classes were not allowed to use certain spells or something to that affect. If you bring this into a fighting its 'similar' to restriciting moves.

I like playing games as-is as well but if we have an akuma on our hands than none of us will like playing. Although im sure MK is not Akuma like since he can actually be beaten. He might be similar to an O. Sagat, makes alot of chars unviable and can spam a ton of ****.

Edit: Thats the thing Ottawa doesnt see much MK play but other places are filled with them. Theres a character ranking list in the brawl tactical discussion that rates characters based on tournament placings. MK has the best placing among all the characters. It used to be pretty close between Snake and MK but now MK has a ridicoluous lead, even on Snake.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Well, if you use the Akuma comparison, then I'm pretty sure he's beatable. I mean, I remember last time I played against an Akuma in a SF game, his health went down more quickly than an ex of mine, lol.

 

[IvanEva]

Even IF the Smash Back Room and every other tournament bans him, until he starts overwhelmingly kicking *** in Ottawa, I agree that he shouldn't be banned. I mean, he's a fun character to pick up and play.

By the way guys, I've recently found the single most satisfying way to kill somebody: grabbing them out of their up-Bs! It's very hard against some characters but if your opponent didn't snap onto the edge (which is, of course, the reason this isn't seen very often) you can grab them -> taunt x 7. Yes, you'll have time for seven taunts. Randy, that's important for you to remember since Wario's up-B doesn't latch onto the edge for whatever random reason. I've grabbed my brother's Game & Watch and happily watched him plummet to his doom a few days ago.

 

[IvanEva]

Just ask Derek. My Falcon his Marth, I have to work my *** off to get 1 kill. My MK his Marth, I'm bored while he's dieing. And if you do actually do something to MK, he just switches on the B spam. Whorenado -> whorenado -> whorenado -> whorenado etc.

This smells like a potential money match challenge! I propose that just picking up Metaknight isn't enough (my Metaknight really sucks ). So, I challenge your Metaknight with my Captain Falcon (or any other character of your choosing) to a $5 money match, best of 5 and all that! I'll show you my moves!

EDIT: ****! Double post!

 

[PND]

I think its kinda dirty to ban certain moves. But the idea kinda spawned from mmos which obviously are different types of games. But in some mmos some classes were not allowed to use certain spells or something to that affect. If you bring this into a fighting its 'similar' to restriciting moves.

I like playing games as-is as well but if we have an akuma on our hands than none of us will like playing. Although im sure MK is not Akuma like since he can actually be beaten. He might be similar to an O. Sagat, makes alot of chars unviable and can spam a ton of ****.

Edit: Thats the thing Ottawa doesnt see much MK play but other places are filled with them. Theres a character ranking list in the brawl tactical discussion that rates characters based on tournament placings. MK has the best placing among all the characters. It used to be pretty close between Snake and MK but now MK has a ridicoluous lead, even on Snake.

This is going from memory, I checked the topic a few days ago:
MK has almost 1,600 points in that list.
Snake has around 900
Wario, next in the list, has around 450
Game & Watch and DeDeDe have around 375-400
Ninja edit: Wow, I was pretty close from memory. It was Falco, not G&W. . .

That's a pretty huge lead. Almost double what Snake has, which is double the next lowest character. FYI, the point counts are only tallied on a two (I think) month basis, so those are results from the last few months. However, I don't think Ottawa's at a point that we need to worry about the MK menace yet at all.

Hopefully that new DK footstool tech will be able to consistently shut down MKs.

EDIT: Specific numbers (top 10)

1 Meta Knight (54 top8, 38 top4, 18 top2, 37 wins) - 1578.6
2 Snake (40 top8, 21 top4, 14 top2, 12 wins) - 904.2
3 Wario (9 top8, 6 top4, 3 top2, 7 wins) - 441.5
4 King Dedede (18 top8, 22 top4, 10 top2, 8 wins) - 401.3
5 Falco (30 top8, 13 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins) - 376.1
6 Mr. Game & Watch (26 top8, 16 top4, 10 top2, 5 wins) - 322.4
7 Marth (39 top8, 16 top4, 6 top2, 3 wins) - 226.2
8 Lucario (13 top8, 10 top4, 4 top2, 5 wins) - 216.7
9 ROB (20 top8, 11 top4, 4 top2, 2 wins) - 194.7
10 Diddy Kong (14 top8, 9 top4, 3 top2, 2 wins) - 192.1

 

[LivewiresXe]

Where exactly did you get those stats from, out of curiousity?

 

[infomon]

By the way guys, I've recently found the single most satisfying way to kill somebody: grabbing them out of their up-Bs!

This ruins Sonic and Snake, btw. They have to both be verrry careful to space their below-the-stage recovery so they never get within grab range. As satisfying as it is to grab a Snake and just let him drop off the edge... it makes my Sonic cry

 

[PND]

Where did *I* get the stats? From Ankoku's list. Where did *he* get those stats? From reported tourney results across AllisBrawl and here.

On that note, we could start listing our biweekly results and Ankoku would add it to the list for point totals. A lot of biweeklies are taken into consideration, depending primarily on factors like the number of entrants, prize pot, and other magical math stuff.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Hm, that could work. But wouldn't that require some sort of new separate "bi-weekly results" thread?

 

[PND]

No. . . ?

That's the second post of our Biweekly thread anyway. And we'd have to repost the results in Ankoku's thread for them to be considered. Or in the Tournament Results forum.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Of course. I uh....I already knew that.

 

[Linkshot]

Hooray for the magic of math~

 

[LivewiresXe]

Magic of math? What would be so magical about it exactly?

 

[flash7]

Well, if you use the Akuma comparison, then I'm pretty sure he's beatable. I mean, I remember last time I played against an Akuma in a SF game, his health went down more quickly than an ex of mine, lol.

Im talking about the Akuma from one of the SFII games, he is basically unbeatable and it comes down to playing Akuma to beat an Akuma. In third strike hes very much beatable.

Even IF the Smash Back Room and every other tournament bans him, until he starts overwhelmingly kicking *** in Ottawa, I agree that he shouldn't be banned. I mean, he's a fun character to pick up and play.

By the way guys, I've recently found the single most satisfying way to kill somebody: grabbing them out of their up-Bs! It's very hard against some characters but if your opponent didn't snap onto the edge (which is, of course, the reason this isn't seen very often) you can grab them -> taunt x 7. Yes, you'll have time for seven taunts. Randy, that's important for you to remember since Wario's up-B doesn't latch onto the edge for whatever random reason. I've grabbed my brother's Game & Watch and happily watched him plummet to his doom a few days ago.

This is a half truth. Quoted from the catching the cypher thread:

"You WILL, however, regain your Up+B unless you're one of four characters - Mr. Game & Watch, Snake, Sonic, and Pit."

So grabbing say Diddy or D3 out of the Up+B wont kill. Although it will put them in pretty tough situation I suppose.

This smells like a potential money match challenge! I propose that just picking up Metaknight isn't enough (my Metaknight really sucks ). So, I challenge your Metaknight with my Captain Falcon (or any other character of your choosing) to a $5 money match, best of 5 and all that! I'll show you my moves!

EDIT: ****! Double post!

lol you seem to forget the importance of money . You should atleast go PT if not Lucas.

This is going from memory, I checked the topic a few days ago:
MK has almost 1,600 points in that list.
Snake has around 900
Wario, next in the list, has around 450
Game & Watch and DeDeDe have around 375-400
Ninja edit: Wow, I was pretty close from memory. It was Falco, not G&W. . .

That's a pretty huge lead. Almost double what Snake has, which is double the next lowest character. FYI, the point counts are only tallied on a two (I think) month basis, so those are results from the last few months. However, I don't think Ottawa's at a point that we need to worry about the MK menace yet at all.

Hopefully that new DK footstool tech will be able to consistently shut down MKs.

EDIT: Specific numbers (top 10)

1 Meta Knight (54 top8, 38 top4, 18 top2, 37 wins) - 1578.6
2 Snake (40 top8, 21 top4, 14 top2, 12 wins) - 904.2
3 Wario (9 top8, 6 top4, 3 top2, 7 wins) - 441.5
4 King Dedede (18 top8, 22 top4, 10 top2, 8 wins) - 401.3
5 Falco (30 top8, 13 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins) - 376.1
6 Mr. Game & Watch (26 top8, 16 top4, 10 top2, 5 wins) - 322.4
7 Marth (39 top8, 16 top4, 6 top2, 3 wins) - 226.2
8 Lucario (13 top8, 10 top4, 4 top2, 5 wins) - 216.7
9 ROB (20 top8, 11 top4, 4 top2, 2 wins) - 194.7
10 Diddy Kong (14 top8, 9 top4, 3 top2, 2 wins) - 192.1

Well since everybody can do it and MK is pretty short, this might actually work against him, although probably not enough to counter.

Where did *I* get the stats? From Ankoku's list. Where did *he* get those stats? From reported tourney results across AllisBrawl and here.

On that note, we could start listing our biweekly results and Ankoku would add it to the list for point totals. A lot of biweeklies are taken into consideration, depending primarily on factors like the number of entrants, prize pot, and other magical math stuff.

I think ours are too small to make any impact. Some of the other bi-weeklies are more like medium sized tourneys with 20-30 entrants and usually bigger pot sizes.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Wow, that uh....yeah, that made sense to me. And yeah, I know in the early SFII games, Akuma was pretty **** tough. As you said, it got fixed around SFIII (though I never had TOO much trouble in the Alpha games).

 

[flash7]

oh ya forgot those alpha games existed . Never really played them though. Just a bit of 3.

 

[LivewiresXe]

It's all right, most people don't even know about the SF: EX games.

 

[Jazriel]

Harold, since I'm broke I can't accept your money match, but I am seriously up to having a best of 5 match, my MK vs your C. Falcon for bragging rights, which to be honest, means as much to me as money.