Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dekillsage]

I still want to know why wolf is over fox and gw
why tl is in the same tier as ddd and lucario
and why rob is as low as he is.

Done with you guys

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I still want to know why wolf is over fox and gw
why tl is in the same tier as ddd and lucario
and why rob is as low as he is.

Done with you guys

Wolf's better than GW, not sure why he's over Fox though.

 

[Jabejazz]

I still want to know why wolf is over fox and gw
why tl is in the same tier as ddd and lucario
and why rob is as low as he is.

Done with you guys

I swear, you were "done with us guys" at least 300 times in the past three weeks.
Is your will to stay away from us as bad as your Snake?*

*#shotsFired

 

[Delta-cod]

GnW is horrible.

ways to get in, if snake tosses a nade, a turnip can send it right back to him if he throws it early. this is my chance to close the game a lil. When I am at a certain range, I can react to his dacus with a jab, grounded nair, or I can grab him out of it. Jab can cancel out his dash attack or hit him out of it. depends on timing. if snake decides not to do any of this, then this is a free moment for Peach to close the gap more for pressure. With a turnip or dair. If he is holding a nade to stop this, I just explained the answer to this method.

I dunno how far away you plan on staying from Snake, but his Dash Attack's first hitbox is on frame 5. I'm not sure how DACUS affects how long a hitbox takes to come out, but I believe Snake can hit with the DA and then go into the DACUS. It's pretty damn fast and it's range is solid, so I'd be surprised if you could reliably react to it at a range where you were actively pressuring him. Reading and covering the option is a different story, but reaction seems unreasonable.
Just wanted to address that since that really stuck out to me. I can't comment on anything else of the above.

 

[Tesh]

I did not get into this cause you did not agree or disagree that Peach does better. Thats why I said there was no point. There is nothing to correct. Get it now. But since you are doing to know. I'm gonna make this short. I have to go to work.

I have a few good ways to get close to snake. More options to get in on snake then sonic does. I'll explain this after I get out of work ( Im gonna have to cause when I come back, I bet I am gonna see BS comments on this one as usual)

Once I am in, snake is in trouble. He can't really push buttons or try to evade. it makes it hard for him to break away.

There is a height peach can float to set off the grenades and not get hit by them. I am not use to doing this cause this is something I don't get to practice alot. along with alot of things. This is why I need to sit down with alot of characters. But dont get the chance too. Thus I am not consistent. But yea, I can set the grenade off, it eats his shield some, then I can fall in and auto cancel dair to a jab mix up. Snake can not punish this. Not gonna get to heavy on this. This is just pressure. Once I get in, Solid pressure, snake is not having a good time.

ways to get in, if snake tosses a nade, a turnip can send it right back to him if he throws it early. this is my chance to close the game a lil. When I am at a certain range, I can react to his dacus with a jab, grounded nair, or I can grab him out of it. Jab can cancel out his dash attack or hit him out of it. depends on timing. if snake decides not to do any of this, then this is a free moment for Peach to close the gap more for pressure. With a turnip or dair. If he is holding a nade to stop this, I just explained the answer to this method.


This is all I am gonna do for now, i'll finish this after I am done making some money. cause I know for a FACT, I am gonna come back and see

"LOLOLOLOLOL, such crap, snake has dfvhdsjohcdohasohca. Snake can just dshchopsdhcsxa. Peach cant kill and asdhdjocahdouo." And I'll be more then happy to end these people later.

Pretty much everyone can safely hit Snake's shield without blowing up the grenade. With ROB I have Bair, Fair, Nair, Ftilt + any projectile. Sonic can just use any method of spindash, do 20 damage to his shield in under a second, and escape before shieldstun is over. Kill power is very relevant here because the correct answer is for Snake to hit Sonic or Peach, because sitting in his shield will only hurt him. Even in a situation where a Snake would just sit in his shield, Sonic gets in and out of uptilt range faster.

The range you are talking about where Peach can punish DACUS is the range where Sonic can kill Snake for using DACUS. He can punish DACUS on shield regardless and obviously both characters can clash/beat it head on, but thats nothing special.

@ Delta, I'm pretty sure he is talking about mid range. I imagine at super close range, it might be tough for many characters to punish with double hitboxes and alooooooooot of distance retreating behind your shield.

 

[Delta-cod]

Even at mid range, effectively reacting to a move like Snake's Dacus can be difficult. It covers a lot of ground fast, and if you miss your opportunity to punish he's already across the stage to safety. I'm pretty sure you've gotta be at long-ish mid range to reliably jab Snake on reaction. Like I said, prediction is another thing.

 

[Dekillsage]

I swear, you were "done with us guys" at least 300 times in the past three weeks.
Is your will to stay away from us as bad as your Snake?*

*#shotsFired

I'm done with you

 

[Tesh]

Well sticking out a fast, good jab like Peach's could work at mid range to stop him, but after the clash animation ends he is no longer in jab range, while you are in tilt range.

The distance covered is why I think Sonic punishes it better. In addition to OoSing it, you can just shield drop and chase him down. Only reaction you need is your frame 1 shield.

 

[Cassio]

I think Espy has a positive record against Razer or something close to it? Either way even if its been awhile, definitely an indication that Sonic has more going for him than Peach in the MU.

I personally feel that sonic is probably better than peach do to peach lacking good approaching, zoning, camping tools. Like drk peach has shown numerous times, if peach gets in and starts landing moves on shield she has very strong pressure game with strong followups for good damage. Lots of rps situations heavily weighed in her favor. The problem lies in her game outside of that. She really can't push her way in through a heavy zone defense due to low movement speed and a lack luster camping game.

Sonic on the other hand I feel isn't as safe on shield or as heavy a punisher but so much less is safe against him do to his mobility and generally faster attacks.

These two things really lead me to agree with the feeling that sonic is probably a better character but peach is a better secondary. The way peach plays leads to some odd ball winning mus where things work out really well for her but overall just doesn't have as much utility as sonic does.

Good post, this is almost my identical summary to peach. I know you didnt exactly say this but my only disagreement is that Sonic can punish pretty heavy, or rather is at least given the ability to do so in capable hands. His strings at low percent may not be as simple as peach, but a big strength of mobile characters is maintaining pressure when opponents find themselves in disadvantaged positions. Sonic is at least capable of doing this in the hands of a smart player whereas less mobile characters or opponents with poor frame data have to settle for knocking their opponent away and allowing them to reset the situation/their defenses. Peach is a bit better as far as speedy frames go (though sonic isnt bad here either), but in terms of mobility Id definitely give sonic an advantage on pressure over peach which is especially important at high percent.

And yes Peach can be ok at zoning people out, that doesnt translate to her being good zoning overall. And even then her defenses are frequently compromised by characters with a sword or decent range, and she certainly cant lean on her mobility to make up ground. I do think her camp game is maybe a bit underrated though although still not too outstanding, but she definitely seems to have issues approaching and setting things up.

I still want to know why wolf is over fox and gw
why tl is in the same tier as ddd and lucario
and why rob is as low as he is.

Done with you guys

Definitely agree that ROB is underrated and Fox should be a little higher. Not sure I agree with GW, and I have no opinion on Toon Link.

 

[FourStar]

ok this peach crap is a little absurd. can we talk about something else?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

With regards to ROB, I think the question is how much we condemn characters for having bad MK match-ups.

There are 3 or 4 characters that have completely vanished because MK is so good against them: ROB, Toon Link, Ike, and a few others, but in the absence of MK are actually reasonably good, if not great. I mean, we know ROB isn't viable, but we also know he's otherwise pretty good. I dunno.

BTW, so that people don't yell at me: Ike isn't a great character, but in an MK-banned environment he's much, much more viable, to the point that playing him with a secondary to cover the occasional bad match-up wouldn't be unreasonable. As it stands now there's no reason to play him.

 

[FourStar]

With regards to ROB, I think the question is how much we condemn characters for having bad MK match-ups.

There are 3 or 4 characters that have completely vanished because MK is so good against them: ROB, Toon Link, Ike, and a few others, but in the absence of MK are actually reasonably good, if not great. I mean, we know ROB isn't viable, but we also know he's otherwise pretty good. I dunno.

BTW, so that people don't yell at me: Ike isn't a great character, but in an MK-banned environment he's much, much more viable, to the point that playing him with a secondary to cover the occasional bad match-up wouldn't be unreasonable. As it stands now there's no reason to play him.

if only ike was as fast marth.... sigh

 

[Ishiey]

I still want to know why wolf is over fox and gw
why tl is in the same tier as ddd and lucario
and why rob is as low as he is.

Done with you guys

G&W is worse than Wolf/Fox vs most of top-tier. Also, afaik, the character hasn't had any metagame development for well over a year since, well, nobody plays him any more lol. Wolf > Fox is probably because of the MU chart supporting the notion that Fox gets hard-countered by ICs and the recent increase in ICs, but after talking with Nakat I think it's a very close call between the two. If Fox is better it's solely due to his MK MU imo.
TL is bad, idk. Then again, so are D3 and Lucario, kinda, maybe. TL should be below Wolf/Fox though, because lolMK.
ROB doesn't really show up anywhere outside of the House of 3000, so people still think he's meh. That's probably it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ROB is good. Even the best ROB can be beaten by a reasonably competent pocket MK. MK dominates the game. Pretty much that.

 

[Ishiey]

Idk, I watched a full hour of Kakera vs Ocean that was recorded shortly before APEX 2012 and it didn't look *totally* impossible. They were going pretty close to even, but then again if they play together that often it'll become more of a player MU than a character MU.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

ROB is good. Even the best ROB can be beaten by a reasonably competent pocket MK. MK dominates the game. Pretty much that.

That depends on where you draw the line at "reasonably competent".

I generally do ok against pocket MKs as ROB, occasionally beating them. And I'm nowhere near what one would describe as "good"

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Idk, I watched a full hour of Kakera vs Ocean that was recorded shortly before APEX 2012 and it didn't look *totally* impossible. They were going pretty close to even, but then again if they play together that often it'll become more of a player MU than a character MU.

Did you notice either of them making relatively similar reads in similar situations? I play this Falco guy all the time recently and easily forgo the proper thing in favor of abusing that forewarning stuff. If both weren't really doing the reads based on actions, then I'd say they might be playing the match-up to the best they know how too.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nevermind

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's complete bull****.

U mad?

Don't b mad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, you were right I just misread your post.

 

[Dekillsage]

Idk, I watched a full hour of Kakera vs Ocean that was recorded shortly before APEX 2012 and it didn't look *totally* impossible. They were going pretty close to even, but then again if they play together that often it'll become more of a player MU than a character MU.

Notice how the MK player can get punished for doing things and not care at all? That's my joint

 

[Ishiey]

Hell idr, I watched that a year and a half ago tried to find it with a quick YT search but to no avail, ah well.

 

[Cassio]

Kiraflax still uses ROB out here. I feel like many of his MU's are thought to be worse then they might really be. His MU vs olimar doesnt seem so bad (Ive seen kira go last hit with rich and has taken a win off in the recent past) and while it might be a stretch for a ROB to beat a top level MK he seems to do well enough. I think that toon link, Ike, and peach have it worse than ROB vs MK, not that his top tier MUs are outstanding but many just seem more doable compared with the people he is around.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Kiraflax still uses ROB out here. I feel like many of his MU's are thought to be worse then they might really be. His MU vs olimar doesnt seem so bad (Ive seen kira go last hit with rich and has taken a win off in the recent past) and while it might be a stretch for a ROB to beat a top level MK he seems to do well enough. I think that toon link, Ike, and peach have it worse than ROB vs MK, not that his top tier MUs are outstanding but many just seem more doable compared with the people he is around.

I agree with this

ZSS is ROBs hardest MU for sure.

 

[Espy Rose]

For the record Cass, Razer and I have only played in tournament three times ever (I think). I've got one win on him, he has two on me.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Wolf's better than GW, not sure why he's over Fox though.

Can you point to anything notable that Fox has done since the last tier list?

 

[BlueXenon]

Is the tier list based on how good a character is and match ups, or tournament results?

 

[Espy Rose]

Whichever is more convenient at the time.

 

[Dekillsage]

Kiraflax still uses ROB out here. I feel like many of his MU's are thought to be worse then they might really be. His MU vs olimar doesnt seem so bad (Ive seen kira go last hit with rich and has taken a win off in the recent past) and while it might be a stretch for a ROB to beat a top level MK he seems to do well enough. I think that toon link, Ike, and peach have it worse than ROB vs MK, not that his top tier MUs are outstanding but many just seem more doable compared with the people he is around.

All his match ups are doable with the exception of MK imo. You can def work around -1's and some -2's.
I wanted to play Kira's Rob to see if it compared to dills but he went pit Nice to hear he does well with the character though.

I agree with this

ZSS is ROBs hardest MU for sure.

No. It's MetaKnight for sure.

 

[Spelt]

Is the tier list based on how good a character is and match ups, or tournament results?

It's based on the order in which the names were drawn from the hat.

 

[Jabejazz]

MK being the hat.

 

[Spelt]

MK could never pull off a hat.

I see him as more of a bracelet king of guy.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

MK could never pull off a hat.

I see him as more of a bracelet king of guy.

Looks like he can pull off a hat pretty well

 

[Jabejazz]

MK could never pull off a hat.

I see him as more of a bracelet king of guy.

spelt pls

 

[BlueXenon]

Whichever is more convenient at the time.

I think when someone is trying to show that a character is good, and that character has good results, its easier to just show people the results rather than explain why that character is underrated. It takes a few minutes to go find results if you remember the tournament names, but it takes a lot more effort and more time to write about a character.
But when someone is new to the game and doesn't know enough about all the characters (like me, I recently learned about Marth's up b landing lag problem), I would rather they use results to prove something than give false information.

 

[Delta-cod]

ok this peach crap is a little absurd. can we talk about something else?

You're right, let's keep talking about Pikachu.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

**** that, let's talk about Jigglypuff

She's obviously the best pokemon in the game

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Results are very good and useful but you have to interpret them correctly in order to gain the right information from them. Most people are very selective with them.

inb4"justlikeyou,Gheb"

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Results are very good and useful but you have to interpret them correctly in order to gain the right information from them. Most people are very selective with them.

inb4"justlikeyou,Gheb"

Yeah, you can't just look at the numeric placing in the results. You also have to look at who the player beat and what characters the opponent used.

e.g. Say player A and Player B are equally skilled. player A places 3rd with Sonic while player B places 5th with Peach. Just looking at the numerical placing one would assume that Sonic is better than Peach, but if you look at the bracket you might find that player B lost to 2 MKs while player A didn't have to play a single top 5 character. With this new information you can't accurately make an assumption about which character is better.

You also can't look at a single tournament to decide who/what is better, because of bracket differences, more/less top/high players, and players not being super consistent leading to variations in results.

 

[NickRiddle]

justlikeyou,Gheb