Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Sensei Seibrik]

if u don't airdodge u will consitantly get uair/naired. yes it is better than getting fsmashed but it will at some point be just as much as a threat as it will eventually kill

not to mention the chance of uair- footstool up b locking being a thing if not properly SDI'd

 

[MVD]

maybe yalls pikas suck mondo ****

 

[OverLade]

ok, esam and I have played for years and there are still times that he does catch me with utilt bad DI, it happens and the possibility if that situation comming up is higher than one of pika being in range for an upbgimp, thats the only point i'm trying to make

Smarts is only like 35% of brawl, Reaction time is more important and ESAM has us all beat.

For example, I never misDI certain moves (Pika's Utilt included) because I just react, I don't have to predict it or anything unless it's out of a super weird situation. But ESAM never kills me with Utilt to thunder unless it's in doubles off of one of MVD's hits.

Because of high reaction times, at high level things like Utilt to thunder should never work.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

man lade I hope i nevvverrrrrr see a top mk die to utilt thunder than in tourney

cuz when it does i'll be there to say **** happens

 

[| Big D |]

Once you are in the air you still have rising dair, nado, jumps, and dimensional cape, all methods of returning to the ground. and avoiding nair/upair/fsmash.

Also you can DI away from the dthrow at high percents.

 

[OverLade]

man lade I hope i nevvverrrrrr see a top mk die to utilt thunder than in tourney

cuz when it does i'll be there to say **** happens

Other top MKs don't know how to properly avoid it. I almost never get hit by it you just have to watch for the right stuff, which obviously other top MKs dont have enough experience to properly do.

Pikachu has a lot of stuff that people get killed by that should NEVER work once you figure it out.

DIing Dsmash, DIing utilt, getting edguarded by thunder etc. All that stuff has no reason to work against a character with 5 jumps and 4 recovery moves.

 

[Seagull Joe]

's still get hit by 's Dsmash over the ledge because they don't recover with down b. Silly things like that is why people lose to gimmicks.

 

[Smoom77]

I agree with ICs chart except I'm not sure about the -1 for ZSS and Peach.

 

[DewDaDash]

d3 spread looks good. Minor discrepancies, but much better than past spreads

 

[Z'zgashi]

All my characters are ass.

 

[Gardex]

Damn I just realized we never actually discussed G&W/TL, so it remained at -1/+1 :/

Also, thought everyone bar Zinoto agreed on +1/-1 for Diddy/G&W with the Apex ruleset

 

[Vinnie]

The ICs list is wrong, sorry D:

ICs don't lose to TL and ZSS... what is this, 2008? Lol *LittleFaithIHadIsNowLost*

 

[Vinnie]

LMFAOOOOOO ICS ARE ONLY +1 AGAINST POKEMON TRAINER, RIIIIGHT

I'm scared to even look at G&W...

 

[AtneyB]

I think people should stop to argue about the Pika/MK even matchup.
We almost all know it is not, and we all know why it is declare as even.
Ish ain't gonna change so get over it.
These are just numbers after all.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i agree about them just being numbers

at the end of the day only what each individual person feels about the mu matters, not the numbers on this chart imo

 

[Vinnie]

ICs list revised by me/NAKAT (many of 9B's opinions included as well)

0
0
+2
0
+2
+3
+1
+1
+1
+1
+3
+1
+2 (-2 if you drop grabs, because then Lucario will body you with Aura).
+2
+2
+3
+2 <---- LOL NOT 0, WTF? Also wolf belongs below g&w and Fox.
0
+3
+3
-1
+1? me and NAKAT lack top ike exp
+3
+1
+3
+3
+3
+3 <---- LOL NOT +1, WTF?
+3
+2
+3
+4
+4
+4
+3
+3
+4

 

[Rizen]

Link+4 for ICs? No way.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i think its cute according to vinnie's list the only character to have an advantage is Rob

i'm not contesting this i just think its funny

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

's still get hit by 's Dsmash over the ledge because they don't recover with down b. Silly things like that is why people lose to gimmicks.

Dsmash can hit MK out of down-b

Anyway, some insight into how this was done: match-ups were only changed if they were challenged. We could only challenge 7, and some sort of consensus had to be reached by both panels to get a change made.

That means that we literally couldn't get to every match-up. If you are upset about ZSS vs. Jigglypuff or whatever, it's because neither panel cared enough to change the match-up (or because 7 others were more pressing) or because the argument the panels had couldn't be settled (in this case, the former; that match-up was not discussed). In the case of MK vs. Pikachu, the argument was impossible to resolve. The reality is that there was not an ultimate authority there to resolve the debates, or declare a winner; the panels simply had to work that out for themselves, and if they didn't, the ratio stayed the same as it was in 2.0 (which is logical).

On a more personal note, I'm a little annoyed at how many people signed up for this thing and then never showed up to discuss any match-ups at all or just flat-out ignored the project as it happened. It made settling certain discussions impossible and thus a lot less was accomplished/adjusted than could have been.

There were massive efficiency problems with the project (not its management, which was handled fine, but with its participants who were in many cases impossible to talk to, either because of their sheer obstinance or because they weren't there to talk to, lol). If you have any issues with the results of this chart, you can blame it on that.

 

[Keitaro]

Going to play Nakat tonight. Gonna **** him up with Squirtle and change the match up to -3.

 

[theDuL0R]

Chibo is ready for them ICs

 

[NAKAT]

The storm awaits.

 

[NAKAT]

Going to play Nakat tonight. Gonna **** him up with Squirtle and change the match up to -3.

I'm dying lmfao!!!!

 

[Seagull Joe]

is broken.

 

[Master Raven]

Chibo, the savior who will rescue us from ICs.

 

[Rizen]

is broken.

Maybe he just needs an oil change? Sometimes turning the power off and back on fixes things.

 

[DeLux]

Given most of the info of the chart is already 3-7 months old, I'm ready for BBR MU Chart 3.1

 

[Mister Eric]

rob2goooood

 

[RaptorTEC]

This shouldnt be taken too seriously. Half the updated mu's weren't even discussed and were decided by a third party who sided with panels who didnt even argue. (In some cases)

 

[Delta-cod]

The reality is that there was not an ultimate authority there to resolve the debates, or declare a winner; the panels simply had to work that out for themselves, and if they didn't, the ratio stayed the same as it was in 2.0 (which is logical).

Not true at all. There was an elected third panel which decided MUs that had reached "stalemates". Some panels managed to get their proposed changes in despite not truly discussing a MU through this panel.

Anyways, I'd like to thank Ish for being open to letting me try and fix the issues I had with some of Yoshi's changes. I dropped the ball though, because as the week or so progressed from me initially bringing up the point, I lost a lot of steam and really stopped caring, especially upon finding out that the votes in favor of the inactive panel were unanimous. Sorry for being a hardass.

I will also say that I disagree with a lot of my character's ratios, but I'll see what can be done with the gradual update system you have planned, Ish.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Will vs Grim MM.
$100.


Will double 3 stocks Grim, calling it.
I can honestly see why people are bothered by him now.

 

[Z'zgashi]

+1
+3
+4

I agree with your ratios on my characters.

Also, while I know nobody really cares about any of these characters, I still feel like giving my opinions on the changes I would make to their MU spreads just so its out there:

Spoiler

Bowser
-3 > -2
-2 > -1
-2 > -1
0 > -1

Mario
-2 > -1

Yoshi
-2 > -3
-1 > 0
0 > -1 (Actually not 100% sure on this one, I think its REALLY borderline -1 and 0)
+1 > 0

 

[Delta-cod]

Rob supposedly being the only character to beat the ICs is hilarious.

 

[DMG]

When did ZSS go from possibly winning against IC's, to "nvm mind she can't manage even anymore" Until recently the only 2 characters you guys talked about possibly winning were ZSS and ROB

Next iteration is gonna be ROB at 0 because who the **** plays ROB and because shield better

Bring back Cruise and Brinstar mother ****a

 

[Dekillsage]

Ic's +1 vs Snake

Okay

 

[southpaw]

toon link vs lucario was pretty much agreed unanimously to be lucario +1 advantage
ish plz BibleThump

 

[FredFuchs]

here's my opinion of what olimar's mus should be
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
FLAOC +4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
g&w +4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
+4
-4
-4

 

[Bloodcross]

Link is not -4 with Ice Climbers.

After what Lord Xavier did to IceArrow, that **** is a ****ing even matchup

 

[Ishiey]

Late reply to a few questions/comments:

So, I just calculated how much this ranking would change with MK banned.
+2 : Pit, Ike
+1 : Falco, Peach, Luigi
-1 : Pikachu, TLink, Lucario, Fox, Sheik, ROB, Ness
Overall spread : 587, from 752 (22% augmentation of 'balance', if you will)

So either the method of weighting matchups is not accurate, or MK's ban does not affect the metagame that much. I'll let you interpret that however you want.

Interesting, especially since people always say TL should be better with MK banned since it's his only -2 lol. This was a rough weighting system though, certainly not perfect. If we had the data I would prefer to weight it off of character usage, but alas. Do you have any other weighting systems in mind that might work?

ITT : people butthurt about numbers they don't understand.

Ishey you should add that "what ratios truly mean" post to the op, a full list of the changes and also a list of how many people contributed to each panel (no names mentionned obv).

Hopefully it will help people understand how things went.

Personnally I'm sad this had to be rushed in order to avoid falling into oblivion, but I guess there was no other way.
Glad it's over and that it won't have to be done again.

You mean bits and pieces from the discussion we had in the subforum? I can get a full list of changes up, will do so after replying to everything. The list of panelists is already up, although there were a few minor edits and a lot of no-shows :/
I'm surprised you think it was rushed, because this was extreeeemely lax compared to last year imo haha. Alas, there really is no other way with this format :x

Thanks for the response Ishiey. That's kinda what I figured. If we ever get around to updating Ganon, I'd be glad to take over the discussion. This chart makes me kinda sad to look at :C Almost every character is AT LEAST one spot higher against Ganon than they should be, IMO.

Will keep that in mind

also, the Rob vs Samus icon is not listed under Robs spread.

Fixed, thanks for the catch!

I'm just happy 's matchups look good, though being only +2 with after seeing all his other -2's is weird. I think Verm also said +3's . I can't remember if that went to discussion or not.

We brought it up, Verm said he thought Wolf and Fox were equal but somewhere between -2 and -3 iirc. Then the Ganon panel never happened, so, yeah lol.

Damn I just realized we never actually discussed G&W/TL, so it remained at -1/+1 :/

Also, thought everyone bar Zinoto agreed on +1/-1 for Diddy/G&W with the Apex ruleset

Yeah, some MUs never got put up :x On Diddy, it wasn't submitted so it ended up going to the third panel, where the majority went for no change. Looking back at the discussion, it seemed the Diddy panel was actually somewhat split (excluding Zinoto) with LP leaning against the change and P1 agreeing with it but still disagreeing with the reasoning provided by the G&W side.

Anyway, some insight into how this was done: match-ups were only changed if they were challenged. We could only challenge 7, and some sort of consensus had to be reached by both panels to get a change made.

That means that we literally couldn't get to every match-up. If you are upset about ZSS vs. Jigglypuff or whatever, it's because neither panel cared enough to change the match-up (or because 7 others were more pressing) or because the argument the panels had couldn't be settled (in this case, the former; that match-up was not discussed). In the case of MK vs. Pikachu, the argument was impossible to resolve. The reality is that there was not an ultimate authority there to resolve the debates, or declare a winner; the panels simply had to work that out for themselves, and if they didn't, the ratio stayed the same as it was in 2.0 (which is logical).

On a more personal note, I'm a little annoyed at how many people signed up for this thing and then never showed up to discuss any match-ups at all or just flat-out ignored the project as it happened. It made settling certain discussions impossible and thus a lot less was accomplished/adjusted than could have been.

There were massive efficiency problems with the project (not its management, which was handled fine, but with its participants who were in many cases impossible to talk to, either because of their sheer obstinance or because they weren't there to talk to, lol). If you have any issues with the results of this chart, you can blame it on that.

Quoting for emphasis, except for the bit that Delta mentioned which I'll talk about there. Even 7 proved to be too much with all the people that dropped, this project is a nightmare to deal with :/

Given most of the info of the chart is already 3-7 months old, I'm ready for BBR MU Chart 3.1

Hopefully we'll actually go with 3.x, sounds a lot easier to manage than somehow whipping up v4

This shouldnt be taken too seriously. Half the updated mu's weren't even discussed and were decided by a third party who sided with panels who didnt even argue. (In some cases)

The MUs that were changed without any discussion were agreed upon by both sides. The ones that did not have a clear resolution went to a third party that was supposed to vote on which side a MU went to based off of the information in the discussion while ignoring personal biases. However, there was no system to ensure the third party did their job as described, because we were jumping through enough hoops as it is and the line needs to be drawn somewhere :x

Not true at all. There was an elected third panel which decided MUs that had reached "stalemates". Some panels managed to get their proposed changes in despite not truly discussing a MU through this panel.

Anyways, I'd like to thank Ish for being open to letting me try and fix the issues I had with some of Yoshi's changes. I dropped the ball though, because as the week or so progressed from me initially bringing up the point, I lost a lot of steam and really stopped caring, especially upon finding out that the votes in favor of the inactive panel were unanimous. Sorry for being a hardass.

I will also say that I disagree with a lot of my character's ratios, but I'll see what can be done with the gradual update system you have planned, Ish.

It's the least I could do, this project is hell for everybody. You're not the only one that started to run out of steam :/ and I do appreciate you bringing up your concerns, even if the votes aren't mine as the project leader I feel like I should be held accountable for times where the system sorta falls through. Definitely hope whatever system I can work out is a fair compromise and gives you a shot to change ratios without going through a third panel or some other outside source.

toon link vs lucario was pretty much agreed unanimously to be lucario +1 advantage
ish plz BibleThump

Y'know... you're right. But it wasn't submitted and went to the third panel where it somehow had a majority for no change.

Well.

Do me a favor and bring this up when we figure out how to keep updating the chart, please. Until then, I'll keep it noted in the OP as a potential fix.

 

[RaptorTEC]

If you admit there are mistakes why not fix them now instead of waiting months for a new system