Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Luco]

Any lucas match-ups able to be looked at? I seem to recall Dk as a -4 before, what changed? Tbh i'm glad lucas is devoid of -4 match-ups, it's nice to see. ^_^

 

[Luxord]

Any lucas match-ups able to be looked at? I seem to recall Dk as a -4 before, what changed? Tbh i'm glad lucas is devoid of -4 match-ups, it's nice to see. ^_^

wait, did you come here for conversation ACTUALLY related to the Matchup on the chart?
*applause*
oh boy oh boy! dis gon b gud

in reality I do hope someone answers your questions
my guess is the Lucas scene is a lot better now than when the previous chart was made IMO so more ACTUAL MU knowledge got listed (such as the Sheilda vs Sheik MU which I doubt has actually happened on a high level so it's 100% theorycrafting/looking at other countries?)

 

[Luco]

Well I have to go for now, but i'll come back later and hopefully get an answer. *hopes*

 

[~ Gheb ~]

While I agree that ESAM seems a bit deluded about Pikachu's match-ups you can't say that his claims about his tournament placings aren't accurate.

The only one I'd disagree with is - kinda predictably - Snake. Out of the 4 major post-LG tourneys the only ones where ESAM did outplay Razer, were the ones where they had to play each other directly [Pound V and Apex '12] whereas Razer never got outplaced by ESAM when they didn't play each other [Genesis 2 and WHOBO 3]. Razer's placings are still all around compareable but there's also usually a Snake or two doing better or as good as the next best Pikachu [ie Apex '12]. Considering how well Snake does regionally it's a tough call but saying that Pikachu's placings are better is flat-out wrong.
Definitely right about Wario's and Marth's placings though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPYX8mj_Zqg

Quite right; my mistake. I don't really watch video or keep up with results, so I forgot all about that. That was a thing, and it is certainly noticeable.

Any lucas match-ups able to be looked at? I seem to recall Dk as a -4 before, what changed? Tbh i'm glad lucas is devoid of -4 match-ups, it's nice to see. ^_^

-3 matchups are still terribly improbable in high-level play. I wouldn't be too happy about it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I was only a "Solo Pikachu main" at Pound V though, since people are being picky But yeah, Snake is 6th in my book, so either way it is whatever. One placement wouldn't really bother me.

Also, I'm pretty sure we tied at Genesis (Both got 9th).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, you tied at 9th which is why I said you didn't outplace him ^_^

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Oh, my bad, I misread. Just waking up johns~

 

[Luco]

Quite right; my mistake. I don't really watch video or keep up with results, so I forgot all about that. That was a thing, and it is certainly noticeable.



-3 matchups are still terribly improbable in high-level play. I wouldn't be too happy about it.

Yeah but at least it's not -4. I know it's not that great but it makes me pretty happy.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Oh, my bad, I misread. Just waking up johns~

ESAM how do you think zss is in your unbiased "i am brothers with a zss player" worldview

 

[Baskerville]

Falco vs. Pika in Pika's favour? wut?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Falco vs. Pika in Pika's favour? wut?

Pikachu's crouch goes under lasers, Falco has to come to Pikachu, Pikachu can punish Falco's whiffed KO moves more consistently than most characters, and the chaingrab does a lot of damage.

Also, I like your avatar.

 

[Sinister Slush]

But mostly the chaingrab.
Along with quite a few matchups where the CG being the deciding factor in the matchup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Eh...Doesn't it stop working past 21% or something? I think a smart Falco would be able to deal with that most of the time.

 

[Luxord]

Eh...Doesn't it stop working past 21% or something? I think a smart Falco would be able to deal with that most of the time.

How does it stop working after 21%?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Eh...Doesn't it stop working past 21% or something?

Absolutely not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J35yERLIyc#t=1m6s

 

[Baskerville]

^
I was about to say I thought he could just DI out of it. But after seeing that, I died inside.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, 29% isn't much higher...It's not like Pikachu against Fox or something, where a grab just equals death at pretty much any percent.

 

[STEM]

At 2:10 the chaingrab goes from 6% to 102%

EDIT: 116% if you include the upsmash at the end

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean that if you platform camp until the D-Throw chaingrab can't be started from a fresh D-Throw, the rest of the stock doesn't have to live under the threat of the grab.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well I know that Pikachu can do fthrow x2-->dthrow cg (first fthrow at 0), and I also know that if after the first dthrow Falco is at 52%+, then the cg doesn't work.

So I imagine anywhere between ~17-~40, a fresh dthrow will lead to a cg til 100ish+followup

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What do people think of G&W's match-up against MK?

 

[Alphicans]

Eh...Doesn't it stop working past 21% or something? I think a smart Falco would be able to deal with that most of the time.

Nope, falco is in danger till 50+. Also platform camping isn't exactly safe vs pikachu unless the pika is stupid.

What do people think of G&W's match-up against MK?

My opinion changes on it pretty often. I'd say a solid -1. His hardest -1 for sure.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When I see Vinnie's G&W or use the character myself it feels like everyone got away with abusing stupid stuff in the game's early days (so he was overrated), then the stupid stuff got countered and everyone thought he was awful (so he was underrated) and he would be on the way up now to his actual position with more players :/.

 

[Orion*]

-2

MK players over shield camp then grabbed to much vs gaw

edit:

i do think it is one of the more awkward mu's to learn if you want to play it at a high level
it could be -1 but like theres no gaws playing that way except vinnie on a good day, so meh

 

[Gardex]

What do people think of G&W's match-up against MK?

-1 imo.

It's the toughest -1, but I wouldn't call it a -2, especially alongside the likes of Diddy and Marth

 

[KuroganeHammer]

All aboard the G&W hype train.

*waits for G&W to rise 6 places on the next tier list*

I would think -2 is perfect for MK though in my humble opinion. -1, only if the MK is careless.

 

[z00ted]

Watch Vinnie vs. any MK and you'll likely change your mind on that, Aerodome.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That match up seems like a -2. the only reason this match up seems like a -1 is because Vinnie has great reads that allow him to kill MK quicker than usual. Also, Diddy vs. G&W should be -3 for G&W

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

The thing is, G&W lives off of reads and predicting. Most, if not all, Game and Watches play him this way. He is built to predict, not to just spam bair and then spam fair when they are close to death.

From what I've heard, -3 is about right for G&W vs Diddy

 

[Vinnie]

That match up seems like a -2. the only reason this match up seems like a -1 is because Vinnie has great reads that allow him to kill MK quicker than usual. Also, Diddy vs. G&W should be -3 for G&W

G&W's only -3 is ICs. He's 0 or -1 against MK and -1 against Diddy. He's top 10 in the game; always thought that, always will.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The thing is, G&W lives off of reads and predicting. Most, if not all, Game and Watches play him this way. He is built to predict, not to just spam bair and then spam fair when they are close to death.

From what I've heard, -3 is about right for G&W vs Diddy

Every character is played that way. It's just that G&W gets rewarded more for getting a right read than most other characters. Reading is a player ability and not a character ability

@Vinnie, I don't see how the match up between G&W and Diddy can be -1. Diddy shuts down most if not all of G&W approaches. Pretty much the only way I see this match up being won is by a time out do to an early stock loss

 

[Player-1]

Jebus you are dumb

 

[Vinnie]

@Vinnie, I don't see how the match up between G&W and Diddy can be -1. Diddy shuts down most if not all of G&W approaches. Pretty much the only way I see this match up being won is by a time out do to an early stock loss

Not really. What G&Ws have you played?

I think it's slight disadvantage because although g&w can kill diddy way earlier, g&w's trip animation is awful and he lacks a consistent safe way of approaching.

 

[Gardex]

G&W with a banana in hand is like the best thing ever.

He never dies

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Not really. What G&Ws have you played?

I think it's slight disadvantage because although g&w can kill diddy way earlier, g&w's trip animation is awful and he lacks a consistent safe way of approaching.

I can't say I've played any top level G&W's but I have played a few better than average ones. What are G&W's safe approaches when Diddy has a banana at hand? Also, unless Diddy is a stock behind, he has no real reason to approach.

 

[Vinnie]

I can't say I've played any top level G&W's but I have played a few better than average ones. What are G&W's safe approaches when Diddy has a banana at hand?

I think I get a free dair on your shield if you have a banana, I think I get a free up b oos if you try to punish it oos with the banana. I could be wrong. Generally, I don't like approaching a banana-holding diddy with ANY character, though.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think I get a free dair on your shield if you have a banana, I think I get a free up b oos if you try to punish it oos with the banana. I could be wrong. Generally, I don't like approaching a banana-holding diddy with ANY character, though.

I'm not too sure about that one either since sometimes I get the punish and sometimes I don't. Even then, that becomes very predictable and Diddy can just punish it by throwing a banana up. Even if he can't follow up with an attack, small amounts of damage like this will start to build up

 

[ChocoNaner]

Jebus you are dumb

^ :I

Vinnie, don't waste your time arguing with jebus, a wall has better logic than him I:

srsly ichu:

 

[Vinnie]

I can't say I've played any top level G&W's but I have played a few better than average ones. What are G&W's safe approaches when Diddy has a banana at hand? Also, unless Diddy is a stock behind, he has no real reason to approach.

Sorry, but 2 damage isn't much of an argument. lol.

G&W's juggling capabilities and frame traps are really good vs diddy. In order to win the MU as G&W, you have to be extremely evasive and patient. It's still a disadvantaged MU, like I said (-1), but you can't say G&W:Diddy is -3, wtf >_>. You must have played G&Ws that had no mindgames, that you just walled and camped easily.