Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Z'zgashi]

Space fairs better, that alone should make the MU a million times easier.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's Marth... fair more, duh.

 

[Shaya]

Kirby is hard for Marth.

The thing about bair is that it most definitely beats us horizontally forever. Fair cannot beat his bair horizontally but it can beat it vertically.

The locations that he bairs, a good fast fall and multiple jumps makes it hard to punish him as well. You got to/can PS the bair for very strong punishes though.

So yeah... space fairs better ... kinda... or get comfortable with power shielding.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't believe that; the hitboxes are about the same size and Marth's disjoint is superior.

EDIT: And power-shielding isn't some mystical force man, stop singing its praises at every opportunity and assuming that if someone has any kind of problem, it's because they aren't power-shielding as much as they could be - it doesn't do everything; it has niche uses.

Marth will be punishing bair with a SH fair 90% of the time, which is the exact same speed out of shield and powershield.

 

[Shaya]

Good vertical spacing from kirby equates to us not being able to just sh fair to punish. PS negates the knockback which is the main reason we can't freely swing at it.The main deal-eo with Kirby from PSing is the ability to dash/move somewhere a lot more favourable that Kirby's bair doesn't completely cover with it's inherent zoning.

Power shielding isn't a mystical force. It's a tool of spacing. Dash fair is 1 frame slower than fair OOS but covers about 3x the range.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As cool as that last sentence was, every single action you take is a tool of spacing

Dash, or walk? I'm not seeing dash as being useful at such close range - and you could walk just as easily out of a dropped shield, Marth is more immediately threatening in the MU so you don't need to worry about a few extra frames of lag. It might be the difference between you landing a hit and not landing a hit, but you're going to be in a good position regardless.

Also could you elaborate on what good vertical spacing will do for Kirby to avoid the SH Fair? He's either going to fall and auto-cancel it, or wait until the IASA and jump away - those are his only vertical options, and I'm not seeing how either of them beat SH fair.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Do you mean that if you attempt to shield a spaced bair normally marth cannot get out horizontally fast enough with Fair to punish Bair? That's what you mean by the horizontal spacing?

 

[Shaya]

Oh, for sure. Marth shielding a bair and moving forward again and shielding is a really scary force that'll probably turn the MU quite peachy at mid levels. Dash fair is a punish though (and I was referring to it as a comparison of PS punishes).

While... sure... everything is a tool of spacing... but not everything is such a positive tool of spacing that is quite literally EZPEZ.

Do you mean that if you attempt to shield a spaced bair normally marth cannot get out horizontally fast enough with Fair to punish Bair? That's what you mean by the horizontal spacing?

Well spaced bair from kirby is pretty good.... It's more the combination of horizontal + vertical.
So to answer your question. Yes. If you consider the range that bair can reach horizontally and vertically, and the space kirby moves vertically and horizontally due to 5 jumps + average+ aerial mobility.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

While I'm sure it's a useful tool, I'm just not seeing power-shield as a game changer in the match-up. You don't need to use it to avoid bad situations, you just can use it to secure better positions.

 

[Shaya]

Power shielding is a fundamental skill that is the single greatest/easiest means of any character beating any singular move. So when a player says to me "I have an issue with this move", I say "power shield it" because it's the easiest way for any player with any character to turn a frown upside down.

Mid Tier characters succumb to power shields more so than high/top tiers because while they can abuse certain horizontal/vertical positions to make moves (usually aerials) "safe", the moves themselves + their mobility beyond their one jump is mediocre so getting past the first wall is the only cracking needed to get past a majority of players, especially the middies who can only play exceptionally under a certain set of conditions. Conditions which are uniformly dismantled by power shielding.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What would you consider mid level? What you described is the way Apollo used to beat most South Australians, and I would've said we were low level at the time (and mid level now).

 

[FredFuchs]

I see "Official SWF Matchup Chart..." as the latest post and I get a sense of hope that it's the v3 one. Then I get disappointed that it's not.

 

[Shaya]

What would you consider mid level? What you described is the way Apollo used to beat most South Australians, and I would've said we were low level at the time (and mid level now).

I meant mid tier characters, not players.
A very very tight Kirby won't be easily thwarted by just shielding his back air. Maybe against some characters.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the most useful thing about kirbys bair is that it pushes just about every character out of punish range when they shield it.

powershielding negates said pushback, which lets a ton of characters now punish that move when they couldnt before.

 

[Ishiey]

v3 is out: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v3-0.338390/