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Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
Player-1
Smash Legend
dr pee pee best marf
clowsui
Smash Legend
5 men on the marth list
all of them worse than kevin nanney
WADDUP
stingers can testify
all of them worse than kevin nanney
WADDUP
stingers can testify
<3 alex
Mekos
Smash Master
lol we played in tourney when I wasn't even Super Saiyan. Like 2010. When I first entered the tourney scene. A win is a win.
But just know that Saiyans get stronger after every win and even stronger after every defeat. It's 2012!
But just know that Saiyans get stronger after every win and even stronger after every defeat. It's 2012!
MM'd you a few months ago gtfo dawg
MM me again bay I ain't goin anywhere
MM me again bay I ain't goin anywhere
Mekos
Smash Master
? I seriously don't remember. A few months ago? I've only been to one NC tourney since apex(January). And we didn't play then.
And I don't mm singles. I don't like singles. U know this. I only play singles in tourney now.
Singles for low tiers acquire crazy mental power. I can only muster that in tourney.
I don't sandbag in friendlies or mm's but it definitely isn't Super Saiyan 3 or 4. That is why I mostly decline singles mm request. Cuz that is not 100% power and because singles is not fun for me. I would rather doubles mm anyday or anytime.
And I don't mm singles. I don't like singles. U know this. I only play singles in tourney now.
Singles for low tiers acquire crazy mental power. I can only muster that in tourney.
I don't sandbag in friendlies or mm's but it definitely isn't Super Saiyan 3 or 4. That is why I mostly decline singles mm request. Cuz that is not 100% power and because singles is not fun for me. I would rather doubles mm anyday or anytime.
We will be in the same city soon enough
I'll see you in tourney then
dip
I'll see you in tourney then
dip
Mekos
Smash Master
Nice! I like that! I'll be ready! Lets do this!
And if Esam doesn't make it to the Greensboro tourneys...lets team!
And if Esam doesn't make it to the Greensboro tourneys...lets team!
I eat lucas' for breakfast.
Mr-R
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 2,544
hahaha yeah you've defintely lvled up since apex, we gotta play another MM at apex 2013 ;D
Ryo_Guikido
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2008
- Messages
- 560
I'm probably preaching to the choir bigger than ****, and forgive me if I am, but as far as an objective analysis of how each character's strengths stack up side-by-side, the list is accurate for the most part. Mekos, being a Ganon main, I have to hold my tongue a little after winning a difficult MU, 'cause I know first-hand that winning a hard MU makes it seem more optimistic than it really is. I've beaten the whole gamut of bad Ganon MUs from MK to Yoshi, but that's not due to Ganon's overwhelming strengths.
In other words, you can exploit the player into misusing their character's strengths, but you can't change the fundamental nature of the strength itself, or the fact that a FAir from Marth beats just about every approach Ganon has.
In other words, you can exploit the player into misusing their character's strengths, but you can't change the fundamental nature of the strength itself, or the fact that a FAir from Marth beats just about every approach Ganon has.
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
I've haven't seen Pink Fresh or FAE do anything recently. Only Mekos.
Well hasn't certain low tiers been doing stuff also? You guys act like low tiers do absolutely nothing. Why don't ppl respond to my low tier mains successes?
Sheik is still a very hard matchup, but yeah it's not auto win. Lucas has a lot of hard counters though.
Lucas can air camp but his projectiles suck.
Yoshi grab isn't that bad.
Mario kind of has the same exact thing where he can throw quick air attacks but his kill moves are hard to land and he gets hard countered.
Why can't we just have a few characters in the low tier instead?
Tiers are for Queers!
That's the message that I've found.
Taj did well in tournaments though with Mewtwo and Mewtwo didn't go middle tier.
This is like saying Mario is a middle tier viable character because Mango does well with him. When Melee ppl really know that Mario sucks and Mango is just the better player.
Basically the better player will win. If you win something with a low tier doesn't make them all of a sudden middle tier.
There's so much fan boy in here it's getting ridiculous.
Laying down the hard facts.
I'll be sure to give Mekos a run for his money when I meet him in tournament, too.
Mekos
Smash Master
lol it's like you people aren't reading my posts. lol It's whatever tho.
You guys say characters strengths based on what you have witnessed. The metagame should always be evolving. And I just explained about lucas's hard matchups. That still doesn't mean other parts of the data isn't wrong. I explained that. Reread my posts.
That's all I'm saying.
And I don't see what is wrong with Peepee beating me in tourney in 2010. He is a really smart player. I didn't have the skills to beat a smart Marth back then. Everyone hopefully should be growing in powerlevel. Grow after every defeat and analyze what you did wrong.
For the longest I went through a small depressed state hating singles!
I said there was no hope for my character and agreed with this terrible MU chart. At my old power level there was just nothing I could do. The advantages were too much. I said forget singles!! I will just stick to being a doubles master!! But then two people changed the way I play smash at Genesis 2. Fow told me to just shut the heck up and get better. I used to argue with him and say "but you are not doing that! You are picking up a pocket mk!".
Coach Pane told me to focus on my opponents habits.
I eventually listened to both and went to the hyperbolic time chamber. I created a unique playstyle for lucas and even created a new AT. I don't care if people don't call it that and agree with it. But it does enhance lucas's spacing/quickness abilities. This is crucial because Lucas is a powerful and quick character. The only issue is that he lacks priority in his attacks(Most other moves in the game will go through lucas's attacks even if we start our attack first. We can even be grabbed through some of our moves!). So this new AT helps greatly! I was now able to compete against top level players!
I also started to try and read my opponents. With my new playstyle I turned Super Saiyan.
After Ktar6 something clicked and I had mastered reading my opponents habits. This is when I reached Super Saiyan 2.
After a few other tourneys I developed unique setups for specific stages. This is when I reached Super Saiyan 3.
When I compare my lucas to other lucas players I see that I have invented the unique things that I do. Many people haven't witnessed it or know what is going on. Lucas is now a better character than what you have seen in the past. Stop judging him based on what u have witnessed. I gained the will of fire and now believe anything is possible. I didn't give up on singles and enter it at tourneys.
So my point is with mastery of the basic fundamentals of the game and the lucas I've created the matchup chart is wrong. I've explained it like 3 times.
One more example, it shows -1 for falco. Why is that? A lucas who has mastery over his AT's isn't afraid of the spike. The matchup is actually 0. The first time I played a falco offline was at collision against Pelca. He beat me 1-3. (i beat his snake and he 2-0'd me with falco. close matches). Then with the experience I had gained I 2-0'd him at SKTAR.
I also went even with Larry the best falco in the US in friendlies. I created a strategy for falco and it is working so far.
I don't get what being the better player means. Does it mean that the player has taken the time to develop strategies, has learned how to read his opponent, and utilize his character to the fullest more than his opponent? Even if that is so that shouldn't take away from the character. The character still needs to have tools to make it happen.
In the past I didn't think lucas had the tools. Now he does.
**money match a few months ago**
Mekos
Smash Master
-______- I already explained. I've only been to one tourney since Apex and we didn't play.
You must mean alot of months ago or like a year. I don't remember playing u. No offense but you are always begging me to play. Maybe I did alot of months ago. But I don't remember.
Definitely something I didn't want/care to do. I don't like singles or care to test my might against impossible matchups unless its the best of the best with that character. That is my personal want, to test my power level against them.
@Verm - Ganon is slow. Lucas is quick. Marth's fair also beats all of lucas's attacks. But with lucas's quickness, mastery of the basic fundamentals of the game, and the ability to read your opponent you can get around the deadly fair with lucas. As shown in that match I posted. Yes it is hard but that is where your mental power comes in. You are a low tier user so u understand but for everyone else...
You know how you feel when you play an ice-climbers? Well for many matches for low tiers that is the mental power we must put forth. If we don't then one grab can maybe change the game. You are put in a terrible situation, gain heavy %, or are dead. Just like an ice-climbers matchup.
You must mean alot of months ago or like a year. I don't remember playing u. No offense but you are always begging me to play. Maybe I did alot of months ago. But I don't remember.
Definitely something I didn't want/care to do. I don't like singles or care to test my might against impossible matchups unless its the best of the best with that character. That is my personal want, to test my power level against them.
@Verm - Ganon is slow. Lucas is quick. Marth's fair also beats all of lucas's attacks. But with lucas's quickness, mastery of the basic fundamentals of the game, and the ability to read your opponent you can get around the deadly fair with lucas. As shown in that match I posted. Yes it is hard but that is where your mental power comes in. You are a low tier user so u understand but for everyone else...
You know how you feel when you play an ice-climbers? Well for many matches for low tiers that is the mental power we must put forth. If we don't then one grab can maybe change the game. You are put in a terrible situation, gain heavy %, or are dead. Just like an ice-climbers matchup.
I am not begging you
I am trying to get you to stop thinkin ur the man when I can still **** you
I ***** you a little before Apex in a MM which is probly too long ago for you
You were upset and didn't wanna talk about it
Money match me again
Don't passively insult me be outright. Trash talk is only legit that way.
Put up or shut up. No more of this passive BS about beating good players when I still have the winning record against you from recently. What does that make you if I'm not considered good and I wrecked you?
I am trying to get you to stop thinkin ur the man when I can still **** you
I ***** you a little before Apex in a MM which is probly too long ago for you
You were upset and didn't wanna talk about it
Money match me again
Don't passively insult me be outright. Trash talk is only legit that way.
Put up or shut up. No more of this passive BS about beating good players when I still have the winning record against you from recently. What does that make you if I'm not considered good and I wrecked you?
FOR FREEDOM!
STARS AND STRIPES!
STARS AND STRIPES!
Steam
Smash Hero
I hate lucas.
also why is peepee here I am confused
also why is peepee here I am confused
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
PP is Marth hero. Also plays Brawl Marth and apparently ***** Stingers for free(dom).
I agree with you entirely, but, to be fair, it mostly makes Marth an awful matchup for Lucas, because you're smart and know how to exploit it.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
The score shall be settled at the next NC tournament.
FINAL JUSTICE!!
we outtttttttt
FINAL JUSTICE!!
we outtttttttt
clowsui
Smash Legend
Oh yeah it's pretty BS, I agree with that. I didn't even GR and it still felt like a dumb matchup lol.
I'm not saying Mekos isn't good because I beat him, but he shouldn't be getting ahead of himself(for doing well vs inexperience) or saying I'm bad when I have a winning record vs him(even if it is in a dumb matchup).
I actually approve of the dude's motivation, but he just goes nuts too much LOL.
Mekos
Smash Master
Wth? I'm not insulting you and don't think I am the man. We are talking about lucas right now and his info on the matchup chart. I'm explaining why it is wrong. I'm still growing as a pla
I think you are just joking haha. If you know me you know I don't care about singles. It wouldn't make me upset wth? And yea before apex is along time ago not a few months back.
I'm not being passive aggressive. That is the truth. You ask me any chance you get to mm me like right now. -____-. And the only person to **** me in a set is m2k. He straight out bodied me. I don't remember the match but I doubt you *****/wrecked me haha. And I've already told you I don't care about "putting" up. I don't play this game for money or for bragging rights. I play this game for my own personal goals. lololol
.See me in tourney if you want to face the fire bender! I don't mm in singles unless it is for my own personal goals. I don't care otherwise. Singles is lame.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Real talk, Peepee needs to body some people in Brawl on a big stage. That's a name I'd love to see in lights.
People's Champ, Ph.D.
People's Champ, Ph.D.
Mekos
Smash Master
How am I getting ahead of myself. And u are seriously the one insulting me right now my friend. You are saying the only reason i win is because people aren't experienced against me. That's pretty dirty bro. You are insulting me and all of my opponents. Part of playing the game is adapting during the set. That is what makes Anti so good. He is one of the best players at adapting. I still lack alot of experience. I am not Gnes or Razor who have played Trela many times. That was my first time. But I am not going to discredit him and say I just lost because I am inexperienced. That is rude and just a john. You are never gonna know all the variables in anything in life. Get out of here bro.
Eh but it is expected. That is the life of a low tier. We can't be good players. We only win if the other person doesn't know the matchup. And if we lose then it is because our character sucks. Not because of our inexperience. lolololol Oh goodness.
Dr.PP has always been my hero.
Mekos
Smash Master
I'm explaining matchups and didn't say the matchup against marth was wrong.
Yet you come in here and tell people how u beat me in tourney in 2010. At like my first tourney ever. And then explain how u also beat me in a mm I don't even remember or cared to play. And state that I am getting ahead of myself...wth. We are talking about Lucas right now! haha
You are just trying to uplift yourself obviously, because there is no other reason to mention that.
Continue tho...it doesn't hurt my feelings. I am slightly honored in fact.
Yet you come in here and tell people how u beat me in tourney in 2010. At like my first tourney ever. And then explain how u also beat me in a mm I don't even remember or cared to play. And state that I am getting ahead of myself...wth. We are talking about Lucas right now! haha
You are just trying to uplift yourself obviously, because there is no other reason to mention that.
Continue tho...it doesn't hurt my feelings. I am slightly honored in fact.
He brings it up because you're suggesting that the primary reason you're beating these Marth players is because you're a much smarter player, when most people would say that it's because they have little idea how to play the matchup.
It's not that you're not smart, but, it's easy to find your statement in poor taste, because it makes you sound like you're saying you're a genius far above these Marth mains that are known to be quite smart when it comes to the game. It is likely that inexperience is the biggest factor, as people don't really win -3 (or so, whatever) matchups at a certain level of play unless a person is blindsided by matchup inexperience. It makes you sound really full of yourself.
Also, a loss is a loss. I wouldn't shrug off Dr Peepee's victory as if you were having a bad day or you didn't care. It makes it look like you're willfully ignoring the loss as if you don't have a leg to stand on.
It's not that you're not smart, but, it's easy to find your statement in poor taste, because it makes you sound like you're saying you're a genius far above these Marth mains that are known to be quite smart when it comes to the game. It is likely that inexperience is the biggest factor, as people don't really win -3 (or so, whatever) matchups at a certain level of play unless a person is blindsided by matchup inexperience. It makes you sound really full of yourself.
Also, a loss is a loss. I wouldn't shrug off Dr Peepee's victory as if you were having a bad day or you didn't care. It makes it look like you're willfully ignoring the loss as if you don't have a leg to stand on.
People came in here because Mekos says he hasn't lost to any marths ever. Or something to that affect
Mekos, I don't think that anyone worth anything in this thread thinks you are a bad player, but even if you outplay the hell out of Will, that doesn't mean Lucas beats DK.
MU experience is actually a factor, and you're going to run into that a lot because you play Lucas. Think about it for a second. You are the only really active Lucas player of recent times and one of about three Lucas players that are worth playing. You WILL run into people who do not know the MU when you get on a national stage. You abuse it and you are right to. You succeed and people notice, but the fact that MU experience has something to do with it does remain. It does result people having a lower impression of your skill level than they would otherwise, but doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong about what your skill level is. You're playing a low/borderline mid tier character. You're playing an uncommon low/borderline mid tier character. Of COURSE you're going to run into the MU experience john more often than any high tier player. It's a john because at the end of the day, a win is a win, but it shouldn't be discredited.
Don't forget the people who saw your recent performances and tell you "good ****, Mekos." A lot of them will also point to MU experience as a factor.
You're a good player. I look forward to MMing you at WHOBO.
Yet again, Reflex beats me to the punch. At least this time I made a different point to the same effect.
Mekos
Smash Master
I agree. I already explained that in previous posts.
You guys need to understand the will of fire. I'm not disagreeing. You guys are correct.
But that is not always the case. Kadaj knows the matchup and many others do as well.
Mikehaze and Zex both switched to mk after their loss. That is them not believing in their character.
At the end of the day smash is a mental game. Who wins is usually the person who maintains mental strength.
I'm not discrediting Pee Pee's win. He can have it. But I am speaking truthfully. I mean what I say.
I acknowledged his challenge. I'll bring it in tourney. Full Super Saiyan 4 powers.
You guys need to understand the will of fire. I'm not disagreeing. You guys are correct.
But that is not always the case. Kadaj knows the matchup and many others do as well.
Mikehaze and Zex both switched to mk after their loss. That is them not believing in their character.
At the end of the day smash is a mental game. Who wins is usually the person who maintains mental strength.
I'm not discrediting Pee Pee's win. He can have it. But I am speaking truthfully. I mean what I say.
I acknowledged his challenge. I'll bring it in tourney. Full Super Saiyan 4 powers.
Gotta have confidence, you get nowhere without it. Just try and think about it so you don't come off looking like you're insulting someone else and rephrase it if it looks wrong.
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