Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[-LzR-]

No he isn't.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

F-smash should rarely be hitting Pika especially since he has such a great projectile to counter it.

He has an ALRIGHT projectile to counter it. And who cares if the projectile hits MK for it. His fsmash is punishable by Sheik hardcore, doesn't make it not a huge problem still. Sheik can needle it, DA it (if you are perfect), and DACUS it (if you are perfect practically on the level of an extremely hard read of when he will release) but who cares, His risk reward on that move is preposterous. You might catch him with TJolt 11 out of 12 times but the one time you get hit more than makes up for it. Because when you get hit by it you are losing a stock if the MK isn' using it at the wrong times.

My point is that it's not really safe, especially in this match up. Also, very few characters have the option of punishing a grounded move with an aerial projectile so I'd say it's better than ALRIGHT

If that's not what he's trying to say, then I don't know what he is arguing about. There is really no safe way for MK to throw out F-smashes against characters with good projectiles

 

[-LzR-]

Pika will have already be shooting a jolt to be able to punish fsmash.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Pika will have already be shooting a jolt to be able to punish fsmash.

No he doesn't F-smash has enough startup for players to react to it especially if the opponent charges it

 

[-LzR-]

By the time Pika has shot a jolt MK will already be running towards you. Not a smart thing to do with such a crap projectile as Pikas jolt.

 

[infiniteV115]

The level of theorycraft in this thread is too damn high

 

[-LzR-]

What else can we do than theorycraft here? It's not like we can actually play on SWF.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

By the time Pika has shot a jolt MK will already be running towards you. Not a smart thing to do with such a crap projectile as Pikas jolt.

F-smash may have vary little lag, but it's not completely lagless. T jolt is also a great projectile since it protects you from opponents trying to get directly in front of you. If the opponent blocks it, the time it takes for them to block and drop shield should give you enough time to safely land

 

[-LzR-]

It's so easy to powershield and gives you a free punish while Pika is still in the air. Or maybe I haven't fought a Pikachu who uses it well.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It's so easy to powershield and gives you a free punish while Pika is still in the air. Or maybe I haven't fought a Pikachu who uses it well.

Maybe. They also have the option to retreat with it

 

[-LzR-]

Shouldn't matter as it's easy to PS -> run towards Pika and punish with Shuttle Loop. I just don't see how Jolt is a useful projectile. Maybe because it covers the ledge so well or something?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Shouldn't matter as it's easy to PS -> run towards Pika and punish with Shuttle Loop. I just don't see how Jolt is a useful projectile. Maybe because it covers the ledge so well or something?

Dude, MK is not some god character who can avoid going through shield drop (not to mention the startup on shuttle loop). It's this attitude that MK can do everything in an instant that pisses me off when theorycrafting with players

 

[-LzR-]

There is no ****ing shielddrop on a ****ing power ****ing shield.

 

[da K.I.D.]

in a neutral situation, pikachu can reactively jolt through a lot of MKs stuff since its beats all of his non b moves, and even beats them too if timed and positioned correctly.

but if he uses it pre-emptively, its also very easy for MK to react to the jolt and either nado through it or avoid and punish it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There is no ****ing shielddrop on a ****ing power ****ing shield.

Yes there is, there's just no shield stun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfnLlsLS-c&t=36s

There you go

 

[-LzR-]

Well if that's true then powershielding sucks.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Well if that's true then powershielding sucks.

OOS attacks. I don't know how you could talk all this **** to me when you seem to know nothing about the game.

 

[Cassio]

Judo I dont consider any move that expects the opponent to mess up reliable.

Jolt is pretty bad to spam, but if you toss one at an Fsmashing MK itd be fine. IMO its better to fsmash them instead since pika's has greater range, but theres a few variables involved and thats definitely not something youd want to do preemptively.

 

[John12346]

It was covered by GIMR in VideoGameBootCamp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjFQtAubet4

If I'm reading this correctly, when you powershield something, release shield, then hit the A button immediately afterward, and you'll skip your shield drop animation.

 

[C.J.]

Yes there is, there's just no shield stun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfnLlsLS-c&t=36s

There you go

You are... completely backwards. There's shield stun, but the shield drop frames are all IASA frames.

Go load up brawl- and PS Ganon's warlock punch. You're stuck in shield FOREVER from shield stun. (And no, just because it is Brawl- doesn't mean it doesn't apply. AFAIK they didn't change shields... like at all).

Or, maybe you remember awhile ago everyone got all excited about PSC (powershield canceling) and it ended up being nothing since everyone already knew that you could act immediately out of a PS.

Or here's a post from Kprime about PSing and stuff:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11909884&postcount=75

It was covered by GIMR in VideoGameBootCamp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjFQtAubet4

If I'm reading this correctly, when you powershield something, release shield, then hit the A button immediately afterward, and you'll skip your shield drop animation.

Kprime did a far better, and more detailed, explanation in the above.

 

[John12346]

Ah, I didn't know about that.

In terms of dashing after a powershield though, you'd have to do it the way I posted, right?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You are... completely backwards. There's shield stun, but the shield drop frames are all IASA frames.

Go load up brawl- and PS Ganon's warlock punch. You're stuck in shield FOREVER from shield stun. (And no, just because it is Brawl- doesn't mean it doesn't apply. AFAIK they didn't change shields... like at all).

Or, maybe you remember awhile ago everyone got all excited about PSC (powershield canceling) and it ended up being nothing since everyone already knew that you could act immediately out of a PS.

Or here's a post from Kprime about PSing and stuff:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11909884&postcount=75


Kprime did a far better, and more detailed, explanation in the above.

Even if you are right about that, I'm pretty sure that only works with attacks and not dash animations like LZR is talking about

 

[-LzR-]

Why couldn't a dash be done after a PS?

 

[Judo777]

Any character with a decent projectile can punish F-smash without ever putting themselves in danger.

Yes and the projectile does like 3%, and MK doesn't use it in a spots where you can throw a projectile effortlessly he sets up into it. The EXACT same thing can be said about Sheiks chain (only hers is actually much worse than MK's Fsmash). Any idiot with a projectile can punish it but you dont use it like outside max range when ur opponent is looking at you like an idiot, you use it when they are in a rough spot for HUGE reward. I hit with Sheiks chain for 20% average about 3 times a match.

That doesn't really apply to some characters... Lucas' Usmash is very rarely a good option to use unless the person really isn't expecting it.

Then again Lucas has other kill moves that are much faster, like the bat.

Lucas' Usmash is not even remotely similar you will hit with that move 1 in 20 attempts and its HIGH risk HIGH reward which are very different from LOW risk HIGH reward.......

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MK's fsmash is low risk, but only in some niche situations (well, it is usually low risk but it is only useful and low risk sometimes); a bit of a funny case.

 

[Judo777]

Judo I dont consider any move that expects the opponent to mess up reliable.

Then Snakes Grenades are a terrible projectile........ If you shield exactly 3 seconds after he pulls them you will never get hit i promise. There are many moves in the game that are good because you can rely on your opponent messing up. Because there is stuff that is hard to deal with (tho there is an answer) one of which being MK's fsmash.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Why couldn't a dash be done after a PS?

You can, but I'm not too sure you can buffer it. Even if you could, it would be extremely difficult. Lets also not forget the Dash start up lag

Then Snakes Grenades are a terrible projectile........ If you shield exactly 3 seconds after he pulls them you will never get hit i promise. There are many moves in the game that are good because you can rely on your opponent messing up. Because there is stuff that is hard to deal with (tho there is an answer) one of which being MK's fsmash.

Do this a couple of times and you'll get your shield broken eventually. I'd say that that's pretty great.

 

[NickRiddle]

Powershield.

 

[Judo777]

You can, but I'm not too sure you can buffer it. Even if you could, it would be extremely difficult. Lets also not forget the Dash start up lag




Do this a couple of times and you'll get your shield broken eventually. I'd say that that's pretty great.

Um...... if you shield EXACTLY 3 seconds .....you know like i said..... you will infact....powershield the grenades.....

 

[Cassio]

Then Snakes Grenades are a terrible projectile........ If you shield exactly 3 seconds after he pulls them you will never get hit i promise. There are many moves in the game that are good because you can rely on your opponent messing up.

Poor analogy, snake isnt usually taking damage for a whiffed nade. And as a projectile, snakes nades seem pretty poor.

Because there is stuff that is hard to deal with (tho there is an answer) one of which being MK's fsmash.

I've already stated the same thing, fsmash is great because most characters arent able to reliably punish it. This doesnt include pika, which i explained earlier. Feel free to contend that, but at that point you are arguing with my experience as a pika main.

btw as stated earlier it is fairly good at punishing a pika spot dodge.

 

[Judo777]

Poor analogy, snake isnt usually taking damage for a whiffed nade. And as a projectile, snakes nades seem pretty poor.

I've already stated the same thing, fsmash is great because most characters arent able to reliably punish it. This doesnt include pika. Feel free to contend that, but at that point you are arguing with my experience as a pika main.

btw as stated earlier it is fairly good at punishing a pika spot dodge.

No most characters ARE able to punish it. They just cant punish it with anything worth while.

Chars who can punish this, not necessarily naming the best example.

Snake (weak hit nade)
Diddy (Banana, best punish for sure)
Falco (Laser)
Wario (go around is easy enough)
IC (blizzard)
Olimar (pikmin toss, follow with grab)
Pika (tjolt)
Fox (Laser)
Peach (turnip)
Sheik (Needle)
Wolf (Laser)
Bowser (flame thrower)
Zelda (Dins/Nayrus)
Lucas (Pk fire/thunder)
Ness (same)
Ivy (razor leaf)
......
like for real almost everyone has a way to punish it, its just who cares most all of what i named is like 5% max.

Snake is a perfect example btw Im not talking about whiffing moves, you said a move that relies on your opponent messing up isn't good. Snakes Grenades are great and just that. He relies on you not being able to keep track of the timer while other stuff is happening. His explosives also rely on you forgetting where he put them and not keeping track. And they are very good.

 

[Mekos]

Yes and the projectile does like 3%, and MK doesn't use it in a spots where you can throw a projectile effortlessly he sets up into it. The EXACT same thing can be said about Sheiks chain (only hers is actually much worse than MK's Fsmash). Any idiot with a projectile can punish it but you dont use it like outside max range when ur opponent is looking at you like an idiot, you use it when they are in a rough spot for HUGE reward. I hit with Sheiks chain for 20% average about 3 times a match.



Lucas' Usmash is not even remotely similar you will hit with that move 1 in 20 attempts and its HIGH risk HIGH reward which are very different from LOW risk HIGH reward.......

1 in 20! o_0 What lucas players are u playing?

Sounds like you are justifying your characters moves by stating that the player is using the moves in a smart manor. Have that same mindset for other characters please.
Lucas's up smash used correctly is a LOW risk HIGH reward move. Everything in smash is situational. And the Up smash in the hands of a "smart" player such as yourself is not HIGH risk.

 

[Judo777]

1 in 20! o_0 What lucas players are u playing?

Sounds like you are justifying your characters moves by stating that the player is using the moves in a smart manor. Have that same mindset for other characters please.
Lucas's up smash used correctly is a LOW risk HIGH reward move. Everything in smash is situational. And the Up smash in the hands of a "smart" player such as yourself is not HIGH risk.

I didnt clarify. In the 1 and 20 situation im referring to you charging it outside of the characters range and your moves range. Essentially its when your bait actually fails. Like when MK messes up and his opponent didnt fall for the fsmash and they back up MK is like ........"k" cause they know you cant do anything about it and when you do try to punish it you get hit like half the time. When Lucas is charging his usmash where it not gonna hit you now he gets punished like 100% of the time lol

 

[Cassio]

Those werent the issues I had. The way you framed the argument and worded your post to me Id easily agree, but arguing semantics can get silly so Ill just stand by my last post.

 

[Laem]

Sweet. Can Dedede's agressive upB be low risk high reward as well now? What about ganon's uptilt?

 

[Mekos]

I didnt clarify. In the 1 and 20 situation im referring to you charging it outside of the characters range and your moves range. Essentially its when your bait actually fails. Like when MK messes up and his opponent didnt fall for the fsmash and they back up MK is like ........"k" cause they know you cant do anything about it and when you do try to punish it you get hit like half the time. When Lucas is charging his usmash where it not gonna hit you now he gets punished like 100% of the time lol

ah okay. I agree. A lucas player should never do that lol.

 

[Judo777]

Sweet. Can Dedede's agressive upB be low risk high reward as well now? What about ganon's uptilt?

Dedede's up B and Ganons utilt low risk? If a move can be ganon punched on reaction its not low risk...........

Dedede's up B might be limited to charged smashes..... but its still high risk......

 

[Chuee]

Dedede's up B and Ganons utilt low risk? If a move can be ganon punched on reaction its not low risk...........

Dedede's up B might be limited to charged smashes..... but its still high risk......

I think he was joking about Mekos thinking Lucas' usmash was low risk by listing other super high startup moves.

 

[Mekos]

The joke is on him if he can't comprehend.

For example, the situation I use Lucas's upsmash the most only two things happen.
Either the person is hit or the person air dodges. If the person air dodges they usually don't have enough time for a hard punish.

Smash is about spacing and reading your opponent. So you are actually correct. If you are "good" and have full mastery of your character you should be able to play "safe". Playing safe means you are picking options for your character that are low risk based on the situation(you also need to understand your opponent's move-sets). Different moves are best for various situations.

So simply put...Lucas's upsmash in the right hands is a LOW risk HIGH reward move. I NEVER get HARD punished for lucas's up smash. Do you understand?

U want to theory craft right? Well, theory craft the highest level of play and not just whatever you have seen or played.

Also a SN. Lucas upsmash actually isn't even that slow. I'm not the best at explaining things but you know how lucas up smash is dis-jointed? Well if you slide with it, it seems like it has a magnetic pull like Pika's thunder does sometimes. I'll post examples in a second. The move is pretty awesome and not slow like ganon's punch wth...lol

 

[NickRiddle]

I can d-smash Lucas's u-smash if I AD through it.