Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Vinylic.]

Hold up, rewind.

+1

Can you explain this?

 

[1PokeMastr]

I have to agree, but, I think should be a 0.

 

[Neon!]

DK's general anti-air game is very effective against kirby, his tilts and bair form a formidable wall that can be tough for him to get through. When kirby gets in he can obviously deal lots of damage quick and has good follow-ups after grabs. As far as damage dealing I feel they are nearly even or possibly in kirby's favor but the killing ratio is heavily in DK's favor. DK can reliably kill kirby between 80 and 90% with dsmash or fully charged punch while DK will be living past 140 unless he eats an fsmash near the ledge/has bad di. Both characters have somewhat formidable edgeguarding options, kirby with dair and bair, and DK with bair and up-b ledge stall. Dk can avoid kirby's dair by stalling with side-b, defending with bair, saving his jump, stalling up-b or even recovering high.

This matchup was never discussed on the DK panel and I'd like to hear what Kirby's think of trhis matchup. Dont have time right now to give an in-depth overview.

 

[Kinzer]

Haha people are gonna be mad at me, but I still think Sonic has the second worst moveset in the game lol. But his mobility makes up for it a lot.

Dat Jigglypuff/Zelda/Link though...

Spoiler

Among others.

 

[-LzR-]

Jigglypuffs moves don't really suck that much. She just should have more ways to land rest or be able to kill before 150%.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Jigglypuffs moves don't really suck that much. She just should have more ways to land rest or be able to kill before 150%.

I disagree. I'm no pro jiggs but I mean... have you used her? Don't get me wrong I could be talking outta my *** but jiggs has a pretty terrible moveset lol

 

[Ishiey]

0

After all four active members of the Wolf panel voted DK in the easier half of Wolf's +1 MUs, I really have to disagree that 0 is a more realistic ratio than +1 Wolf. How does Wolf stack up to DK's current 0s, and his current -1s?

 

[-LzR-]

Jigglypuffs aerials are allright. Her groundgame is terrible though. Her moveset isn't like Links who is clumsy as hell and has a lot of projectiles which all kinda suck.
Puff is saved by her great recovery and airmobility. Without that she would be even worse.

 

[WindMajor]

As anyone can see DK's ratios are probably the most pessimistic in the chart.

Here is a more optimistic (and probably realistic) look at how DK's matchups should look.

+3

I think this is more optimistic than realistic.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Jigglypuffs aerials are allright. Her groundgame is terrible though. Her moveset isn't like Links who is clumsy as hell and has a lot of projectiles which all kinda suck.
Puff is saved by her great recovery and airmobility. Without that she would be even worse.

She has no like range. Even with Link's crappiness his projectiles +hookshot keeps him from getting ***** by some of the games lamer ground based high tiers. Jiggs gets ***** by the ground characters AND the aerial ones.

 

[-LzR-]

Wario doesn't have range either, it's their mobility that matters.

 

[SFA Smiley]

We're talking about movesets though, that's a character...istic

Edit: Actually after looking at their matchups they're both pretty bad on the same characters, nvm

 

[MK26]

Took the matchup chart and weighted it based on the 'diff' column in the OP's chart. The result:
(New = weighted, Old = 'Diff' column, or unweighted)

Spoiler

Char New Old
:metaknightbrawl: 85 79
:icsbrawl: 57 53
:marthbrawl: 49 45
:olimarbrawl: 47 45
ikachubrawl: 45 40
:snakebrawl: 42 40
:diddybrawl: 42 37
:falcobrawl: 41 41
:wariobrawl: 30 28
:dededebrawl: 30 33
:zssbrawl: 28 26
:toonlinkbrawl: 23 21
:gwbrawl: 22 24
:lucariobrawl: 22 20
itbrawl: 18 17
eachbrawl: 15 14
:wolfbrawl: 15 14
:kirbybrawl: 13 12
:sheildamini: 8 9
:foxbrawl: 7 7
:sheikbrawl: 2 4
:robbrawl: 0 1
:yoshibrawl: -7 -6
:sonicbrawl: -8 -8
:ikebrawl: -10 -11
:dkbrawl: -17 -12
:luigibrawl: -19 -18
:nessbrawl: -25 -26
tbrawl: -28 -21
:mariobrawl: -32 -31
:samusbrawl: -41 -37
:lucasbrawl: -44 -42
:bowserbrawl: -53 -51
:falconbrawl: -57 -56
:linkbrawl: -64 -63
:jigglypuffbrawl: -65 -64
:zeldabrawl: -67 -64
:ganonbrawl: -102 -100

Why is this useful? I don't know. Go make a matchup-based tier list with it or something.

 

[-LzR-]

We're talking about movesets though, that's a character...istic

Edit: Actually after looking at their matchups they're both pretty bad on the same characters, nvm

You cannot just take the moves and see if they are good or not, you need to also consider the characters. Sonics moveset would be absolute garbage if he was slow.

 

[Flayl]

Has the chart been completely fixed?

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi : ICs is still -1 so no.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Haha people are gonna be mad at me, but I still think Sonic has the second worst moveset in the game lol. But his mobility makes up for it a lot.

At first I wanted to make a big stink about this and calll you out and all.

But then I thought about it.

And I remembered that up air is one of our main kill moves and its literally one of the 5 weakest up airs in the game. And that our main kill move is almost 3 times slower than MKs down smash and still somehow manages to be the same strength. And that we have one of the worst jabs in the game. and that our fastest worthwhile move is 6 frames and is bad. and that our bair is like a combination of foxs and falcos bairs while only taking the worst aspects of both and putting them together. Were also one of the 6? characters that doesnt have a spike.

Sonics moveset is mostly awful. which pisses me off to no end because they could have easily made it way better. Just give up air foxs up air knockback. or make f smash 10 frames instead of 17. Or let jab do more than 7%. Or give dair the same knockback angle as ZSSs dair

Think about that last one. Do you know how amazing would sonic be if he could go offstage and weak spike anyone he wanted and still make it back to the stage. Thats all I really want. a dair that sends people down or sideways like MK... like EVERYONE seems to have.

As it stands now the absurd amount of versatility in his b moves is the only thing keeping him afloat right now.
/saltrant

As anyone can see DK's ratios are probably the most pessimistic in the chart.

Here is a more optimistic (and probably realistic) look at how DK's matchups should look.

0
-3
0
-1
0
+1
-1
0
+3

Theres no way sonic is even with DK. even will knows that sonic beats his character. its just as a whole too easy for me to hit you and too hard for you to hit me. the only reason its even close is because dk doesnt die in that matchup until 180 and can kill sonic anywhere from 60-100. But even that isnt enough to keep sonic from beating him outright.

You cannot just take the moves and see if they are good or not, you need to also consider the characters. Sonics moveset would be absolute garbage if he was slow.

Sonics moveset is STILL garbage. and theres not one single character that wouldnt be better if they were as fast as sonic, that doesnt have any bearing on the fact that sonics moves are GD terrible.

 

[IhaveSonar]

I wouldn't say that all of Puff's moves are terrible.

All of her aerials are decent by themselves, and her aerial mobility makes them great.

Pound is amazing in many ways, rest and rollout are early kill options and punishers, and sing is the worst upB in the game.

As for ground moves, her best two are definitely grab and dash attack, the former of which has amazing range and the latter is quick and fairly strong.

Utilt can combo at lower percents and kill at higher ones, although its hitbox is pathetic.

Fsmash and usmash are laggy, but both can kill and have decent range.

Jab, ftilt, dtilt, and dsmash are just flat-out bad, lol.


Overall, though, her moveset is pretty bad. If she just had more range on a few attacks....

 

[Judo777]

Haha actually the only character that I think has a worse moveset is jigglypuff as you said. She has a few aerials that are decent (like fair and bair) but for the most part they are only as good as they are because they are on possibly the most aerial mobile character in the game, and even then they aren't that good. Like slap her hair on someone like Link (not very mobile in the air) and its not near as good.

Zelda actually has good moves, shes just super freaking slow and can't hit you with em. She has easily the second best dsmash in the game (frame 4 kills at like 100).

In my opinion its actually pretty easy to analyze movesets. If a character is mobile AND has a good moveset, they will be good unless they have some horrid quality that gays them over really hard (like DK). Jiggs is extremely mobile, and bottom tier so ideally her moveset must be garbage.

Conversely Luigi is a character with an amazing moveset, but almost no mobility (and one quality that is related to horrible mobility) and he is bad because of it.

MK has the best moveset in the game, and is pretty high mobility, with no particularly harmful qualities outside of a bad GR.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's mobility is okay, but his special mixups make his viability just as much as his ground speed. I only specify that because Sonic's overall agility is horrid.

 

[Kewkky]

I wish every character in the game had MK's overall potential, but in different areas like camping, shield-pressuring, combos that start from grabs, etc... Brawl would be much more fast-paced and enjoyable to watch. Just saying.

Also, DK vs Kirby is 0. Apart from the aforementioned qualities (kirby racks up damage easily, DK kills earlier), Kirby also has a better recovery and edgeguarding game, what with his slow fall, 5 jumps, and sideB to stall for a while longer. If DK gets poked by a single dair hit he's dead. DK can't use aerials while recovering either unless he wants to risk dying, his only salvation is upB and airdodges the vast majority of the time while Kirby can mix up a buttload of different options to make it really hard for DK to edgeguard. In terms of CPs, as long as Kirby bans stages with short ceilings, he shouldn't be too worried about dying early. To me it really feels like an even MU, and I haven't really seen anything yet that can change my stance.

 

[san.]

Puff's grab at least lets her contend a little bit when she's on the ground. I think her grab is pretty dang good, probably because of the disjoint. Her aerial moveset is pretty decent. I think she's pretty susceptible to pivot grabs sometimes.

Bair to pound is a decent momentum cancel and I find myself surviving longer on a more consistent basis, but her weight is just terrible. Jigglypuff doesn't have anything really special that stands out to balance out the weight.

 

[Judo777]

Sonic's mobility is okay, but his special mixups make his viability just as much as his ground speed. I only specify that because Sonic's overall agility is horrid.

Really I thought sonic was like the second most mobile character aside from like Squirtle and Yoshi. Like ground speed, air speed, vertical speed and the like.

 

[Shaya]

He doesn't fast fall like some though

 

[Espy Rose]

True Judo, but his acceleration is hilariously bad in the air (unless you sacrifice your second jump, if you still have it), and in order to be completely flexible on the ground, you're required to utilize a tech that gives you three separate chances to trip in less than an eyeblink.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy/Falcon should be at least +3. Bowser should also be +3. Lucario should be 0

 

[Steam]

Lucario definitely loses to diddy. Not horribly though... besides, Lucarios don't really win the matchup.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I feel it's closer to even though. Lucario kills Diddy a hell of a lot faster and Lucario gets stronger as his damage gets higher.

 

[Krystedez]

v

It's our hardest +2, but not +1.

I will order Pit's matchups. I'm sorry I haven't been much active on this, I been trying to relax over my break.

 

[Steam]

I feel it's closer to even though. Lucario kills Diddy a hell of a lot faster and Lucario gets stronger as his damage gets higher.

diddy just controls the ground too well and can space out lucario in the air. flip kick is also really stupid for lucario to deal with.

lucario can do some really nasty stuff if he gets naners though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi : ICs is still -1 so no.

That and Diddy being -2 still.

 

[Kinzer]

Like slap her hair on someone like Link (not very mobile in the air) and its not near as good.

I don't think cosmetics has anything to do with how good a character is IMHO...

Anyway last night, I gave it some thought, and admittedly my original assumption on Falcon having a worse moveset isn't as appealing. I kind of forgot the good Captain has a few things going for him.

Maybe Mario though? It isn't doing him any favors that he's basically the poor-man's everything. Sure he can do it all but you could probably just shrug it off and come back with outright brute force in another aspect that in it's own right overpowers.

Just speculations though, not like I know anything.

 

[lordhelmet]

A good summary of :

Not that bad.

 

[Judo777]

I don't think cosmetics has anything to do with how good a character is IMHO...

Anyway last night, I gave it some thought, and admittedly my original assumption on Falcon having a worse moveset isn't as appealing. I kind of forgot the good Captain has a few things going for him.

Maybe Mario though? It isn't doing him any favors that he's basically the poor-man's everything. Sure he can do it all but you could probably just shrug it off and come back with outright brute force in another aspect that in it's own right overpowers.

Just speculations though, not like I know anything.

Lol I meant fair!

But Mario's moveset is bad but he has a few moves that have some great properties. His Up B is the earliest hitting aerial B move in the game with the hitbox out on frame 3. His uair is a great juggle and combo tool, and his dair has like top 3 fastest cool down of any aerial move in the game.

Also his jab is just a less long luigi jab, Any frame 2 jab is good lol

 

[infiniteV115]

A good summary of :

Not that bad.

A good summary of :

That bad.

 

[PMC66]

for write ups may i suggest wolf Vs snake I think it needs to be rediscussed i don't think snake beats wolf to any extent

 

[Ishiey]

Snake vs Wolf wasn't discussed, I don't think any Snakes wanted a change and only Seagull was 100% on making it 0 while the rest of us were either borderline or with -1. Idk if I can get you a good unbiased write-up for something that wasn't discussed, but imo the main thing that gives Snake the edge is higher direct damage output on punishes, superior range on the ground to stuff approaches, and living longer.

 

[GOofyGV]

could someone make a writup from diddy-snake?

 

[Player-1]

I did, it's just not up yet. I've written write ups for all of diddy's high tier and top tier MUs

 

[Shaya]

Player-1 is pretty god tier.at getting infractions, and doing write ups