Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[Davis-Lightheart]

NEWS FLASH 4: I wasn't even at this tournament. I watched the brokenness unfold from my apartment. I could've went to the tournament myself and won the whole thing using a custom set of that kills people at 50%-60%. Does that make me feel good doing broken ****? No.

Everyone has done very good with their replies, but I have one thing to say: What custom are you talking about? The Sonic Boards almost unanimously agree that Sonic's customs are niche and barely make a difference in his overall gameplan.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Seagull Joe : so you're both saying that customs are OP'd, but are also saying that the best characters in the game are still the best. Said best two characters who gain little to nothing from customs.

How can customs be OP'd if they're unable to dethrone the best two characters in the game who are still using 1/1/1/1 sets? Diddy and Sheik do have usable custom options, but they aren't strict improvements. Their power levels/rankings move sideways with them on by gaining and losing things at the same time if they pick one of their few usable customs. If you want customs to be banned, shouldn't you want the things more powerful than customs also banned?

You also said that the same top 5 people got top 5... which only further argues that they aren't broken. There was no random person off of the street suddenly taking top 3 with them on. If status quo of the best players place at the top continues with customs on, then nothing is broken as nothing is overriding skill. Average Joe doing as well as he did might have been abnormal for him, there was not a flood of people doing so. Kong Cycle is punishable and it has been explained in depth multiple times how to beat it, the only reason A. Joe was able to do so well was a lack of knowledge on the rep top 5's part. That's on them, like it would be if they lost to somebody using a character they had never fought before in vanilla SSB4.

I mean, going to BF against DK with customs? That's like complaining that Fox's Usmash is broken while constantly picking Halberd as your stage of choice.

With Shockwave and other tournaments, there is far, far more evidence that customs are perfectly fine. This is the way the metagame is going. You, M2K, Zero, and anyone else who doesn't like them either needs to adapt or play a different version of the SSB series.

 

[warriorman222]

Everyone has done very good with their replies, but I have one thing to say: What custom are you talking about? The Sonic Boards almost unanimously agree that Sonic's customs are niche.

Sonic is very close on the icon thing to Ganon, Villy, Fox, and Samus. All of them can somehow kill around that % with customs. It may have been a typo.


If not, I honestly wonder what custom he meant. A lot of the Sonic ones are niche/ flat-out useless.

 

[SyphoV2]

It's barely over a week until it's locked in, just sit tight for a bit.

I get that. I also think it wouldn't be too difficult to copy/paste the beta list for now and claim it as such. I'm just really curious as to what they are and excited for them. Of course, if it isn't released, I'll wait with no issue. It's merely an inquiry.

 

[GeneralLedge]

My overall opinion is that customs themselves are inherently overpowered(...)

Even within the scope that this is true, 99% of customs (the only exception off the top of my head being Auto Spindash, which only changes the control method) have a significant drawback that changes the way they're applied. Practically all of the recovery specials have a "stronger recovery but no damage" and/or a "weaker recovery but more damage". Sometimes if it ain't broke don't fix it, but it should be up to the player to decide if they need a better recovery or could risk the worse recovery, etc.

And if the argument is still regarding Donkey Kong The Last Airbender, I'm fairly sure windboxes carry no effect while shielding.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't entirely agree with joe but this diddy hate and saying bananas shut down as well as timber counter do seems like a stretch. I also don't like this "this is the future. deal with it" mentality.

Catering to the desires of the players is very important, much more important than some seem to understand. (Viewers are important too, of course) Though I personally haven't really seen this majority of players disliking customs. It's more split than here for sure, but definitely not anywhere near a majority for either side.

Regardless, the data so far doesn't support the "customs are broken" theory. Default characters and top players are still the ones winning. It'd probably be best to refrain from calling anything not actually winning in a new meta "broken"

 

[HeroMystic]

Also, I noticed while watching the VOD last night that a lot of people seemed almost uninformed about customs. The commentators thought that Greninja's Shifting Shuriken could be charged just as long as default. (It can't, the move works off of a simple binary tap/hold distinction.) A Villager using Timber Counter landed several hits with the actual tree, both as it grew and by chopping it down, and none of them killed even past 100%. There was a Meta Knight vs. DK set where all 3 matches were on Battlefield, by far DK's best stage to platform cancel his Kong Cyclone. (The Meta Knight still won, which honestly surprised me.) It's true that Kong Cyclone is an excellent combo breaker due to the super armor and windboxes, but if JohnNumbers is able to punish it with WFT of all characters (dem range issues, mmm) then I am decidedly not convinced that it's the overpowered juggernaut it's made out to be. And in a different tournament entirely, the commentators got their description of Mario's Super Jump custom completely wrong.

I want to emphasize this. A lot of players do not know what customs (or defaults) do and it should be the main reason why we're seeing results like this. In a way, I agree with Seagull Joe. DK's customs are very polarizing and did carry Average Joe to GF. But if I remember correctly, this is what we were looking for. For characters to have better options for their MUs.

The personal problem I'm having with customs is in some cases, they don't make characters better. They are the character. DK is a prime example, but I've also seen it with Villager and Paluntena. Their neutrals matter less and less and it's really reliant on how potent their customs are against a character.

This'll probably change with time though, for better or worse.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I want to emphasize this. A lot of players do not know what customs (or defaults) do and it should be the main reason why we're seeing results like this. In a way, I agree with Seagull Joe. DK's customs are very polarizing and did carry Average Joe to GF. But if I remember correctly, this is what we were looking for. For characters to have better options for their MUs.

The personal problem I'm having with customs is in some cases, they don't make characters better. They are the character. DK is a prime example, but I've also seen it with Villager and Paluntena. Their neutrals matter less and less and it's really reliant on how potent their customs are against a character.

This'll probably change with time though, for better or worse.

If I had video capture equipment, then my next project after I finish covering the stages would be to make some small .gifs of each special move to demonstrate their primary purpose. Depending on where they're hosted some of the smaller details could go in the image description.

Alas, I lack the necessary equipment so it's all just an idle dream for right now.

 

[warriorman222]

I want to emphasize this. A lot of players do not know what customs (or defaults) do and it should be the main reason why we're seeing results like this. In a way, I agree with Seagull Joe. DK's customs are very polarizing and did carry Average Joe to GF. But if I remember correctly, this is what we were looking for. For characters to have better options for their MUs.

The personal problem I'm having with customs is in some cases, they don't make characters better. They are the character. DK is a prime example, but I've also seen it with Villager and Paluntena. Their neutrals matter less and less and it's really reliant on how potent their customs are against a character.

This'll probably change with time though, for better or worse.

I guarantee you: It'll change over time or your money back!

Seriously, your personal problem stems from what Paranoid Drone said: Nobody knows what they're doing. People spam Dong Cyclone because it seems unbeatable. 15 frames at start then 5 at end isn't exactly forgiving even when you know that. However, nobody even knows that, so they think it's unbeatable armor (or invincibility). People will eventually start trying to find ways to deal with it, then someone will either come across this, or we'll have gotten it around by then or something like that. Don't worry, Ken syndrome will pass by and while unlike Ken, Cyclone will probably stay used, it won't be spammed, or used by noobs, it'll be used more tactically be people who will now know what they're doing. Same thing with Counter Leaf: except people aren't using it properly to begin with, so it'll go both ways. Not exactly a bad thing, though.

Every game has their moment where "this" or "that" seems broken. Hell, we've had to deal with the Little Mac and Bowser phases as soon as 3DS came out, and the Robin phase before the game was even released. These things pass by, right?

...

Oh f***. ZeRo is maining Villager now. On the bright side, I can say I mained him before he got cool. On the other hand, I'll be ridiculed for using him, and Timber Counter complaining was enough of a problem beforehand, unlike Diddy who wasn't this bad until ZeRo mained him. Well, now to go and convince some people that timber Counter is balanced.

To get my mind off this potential Diddypocalypse all over again, Why not someone who can film stuff showcase each move and what they do, the main properties, new uses, improvements and most of all, the weaknesses and drawbacks in comparison to default. That last part needs to be stressed, because otherwise it'll seem like we're just showing how OP it is.

 

[thehard]

@ Seagull Joe , if you didn't enter in the tournament, doesn't that put you in the same position as most of us?

You would have a more believable argument if you actually attended and took GFs with your broken setup... 1111 or otherwise.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Oh f***. ZeRo is maining Villager now. On the bright side, I can say I mained him before he got cool. On the other hand, I'll be ridiculed for using him, and Timber Counter complaining was enough of a problem beforehand, unlike Diddy who wasn't this bad until ZeRo mained him. Well, now to go and convince some people that timber Counter is balanced.

To get my mind off this potential Diddypocalypse all over again, Why not someone who can film stuff showcase each move and what they do, the main properties, new uses, improvements and most of all, the weaknesses and drawbacks in comparison to default. That last part needs to be stressed, because otherwise it'll seem like we're just showing how OP it is.

I. BEG. YOUR. PARDON? Where did he announce this? Oh boy this is going to be wacky if this is the case. Villager mains better be ready to defend Timber Counter if this is the case.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To get my mind off this potential Diddypocalypse all over again, Why not someone who can film stuff showcase each move and what they do, the main properties, new uses, improvements and most of all, the weaknesses and drawbacks in comparison to default. That last part needs to be stressed, because otherwise it'll seem like we're just showing how OP it is.

Let me state for the record that while I lack the equipment to record video, I will gladly offer my services online either as a guinea pig to take hits and throw projectiles at reflectors and so forth, or as the person doing the demonstrating while someone else records. (In-person not so much unless there's someone in the New Orleans area.) I love the idea and think it would help a lot.

Also I thought Zero was using Shulk?

 

[Krysco]

I have a capture card although the quality is poor (gifs on my sig show how bad it is). If quality isn't a high concern I could assist in recording customs. I have them all unlocked on my Wii U.

 

[warriorman222]

Let me state for the record that while I lack the equipment to record video, I will gladly offer my services online either as a guinea pig to take hits and throw projectiles at reflectors and so forth, or as the person doing the demonstrating while someone else records. (In-person not so much unless there's someone in the New Orleans area.) I love the idea and think it would help a lot.

Also I thought Zero was using Shulk?

I. BEG. YOUR. PARDON? Where did he announce this? Oh boy this is going to be wacky if this is the case. Villager mains better be ready to defend Timber Counter if this is the case.

I think he said during stream that he would consider Villager, while he was using him or something. Didn't watch it, but if it's true, it obviously isn't a good thing.

 

[HeroMystic]

Customs Shulk is very potent but if I had to choose between the two, I'd use Villager. He's legit the campiest character in the game with customs on.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Whenever people talk about annoying camping Villagers I have to step back and remind myself that not every character has a special that literally invalidates every projectile ever. (Not that it's always safe to do so but it's an option Rosalina has that no one else does. Except other Villagers I guess.)

 

[warriorman222]

Customs Shulk is very potent but if I had to choose between the two, I'd use Villager. He's legit the campiest character in the game with customs on.

Yup. In full exxageration below:

"Here, I'll plant this sapling right here, so now you can't run. I'll blow you up if you roll, pelt you with rock if you jump, and catch you in my net, removing your head and hands for the time being if you take the trip! Who knew slipping and falling was so bad?

Then I'll shoot this little rocket friend of mine (Cute, isn't he? too bad he has to die.), just to blow you away. You think there's anything you can do about that? NOPE!

While that's happening, i'll hang back here under here enjoying the view as you struggle to do something. And if you do mange to get close, I'll just deploy 2 "harmless" balloon that will blow you to ashes!...Or pelt you with rocks. Decisions, decisions!

Oh, this torture will last. And when I wanna finsh you, I'll just throw you away like garbage. If you're still persistent, you can have a another rocket! Still there? Okay, here;s you're lunch. A BOWLING BALL!

And then we'll repeat this over and over again. Fun isn't it? Enjoy!" ~ Every KIllager customs main, ever.

yay we've created a monster

 

[HeroMystic]

Whenever people talk about annoying camping Villagers I have to step back and remind myself that not every character has a special that literally invalidates every projectile ever. (Not that it's always safe to do so but it's an option Rosalina has that no one else does. Except other Villagers I guess.)

It's not particularly that but rather if Villager gets a stock lead, or even a percent lead, you're hard-pressed to get something done. I dealt with it at my tournament and even with Cape, if I lose the stock first, Villager has it very easy.

I've been informed the weakness of Villager's camping after that game, so it's not unbeatable. That said, it's very... tiring.

 

[DunnoBro]

I kind of hope timber counter is broken just so we can ban it and I don't have to deal with it. I kind of doubt this is the case, though.

 

[thehard]

Mm, just wanted to mention, what M2K specifically said about Timber Counter was that it would be OK if the best option for fighting it wasn't waiting 15-20 seconds and doing nothing. Take that as you will.

To me, and I'm no M2K, I would think the strongest counter is rushing Villager down so he never gets a chance to entrench himself.

 

[Ansou]

Mm, just wanted to mention, what M2K specifically said about Timber Counter was that it would be OK if the best option for fighting it wasn't waiting 15-20 seconds and doing nothing. Take that as you will.

To me, and I'm no M2K, I would think the strongest counter is rushing Villager down so he never gets a chance to entrench himself.

But... Even if he/she does camp behind a sapling or a tree, you can still attack him... You just need to be more careful when doing so. :S

 

[John12346]

I just want to mention, I made this list out about Counter Timber's faults for someone a while back, so I might as well share it.

- If Villager attempts to plant his tree too close to you, the sapling takes a very long time to appear, so you can easily punish it with a dash grab or even a smash if you're close enough.
- We already know that jumping over the sapling is a tactic you can take, but you can also use attacks that send you low into the air, and even if you touch the sapling, it won't hurt you because it only trips grounded opponents and that's it. Moves like Peach's Float, WFT's Jumbo Hoop, MK's Tornado, etc. can all get through this.
- This is one we already know about, but with this custom, the axe and the tree become exceedingly weak, actually taking away two of Villager's more prominent kill moves. I know he has other kill moves, but it's something.
- When the tree is up, it only has 15 HP, and the attack that KILLS the tree will not provoke a counter attack from it, so you could very feasibly use a powerful move as a surprise maneuver.
- If you have a sword or a piercing projectile, you can always try to attack through the tree safely while still being outside of the tree's counter attack range.

So I guess that's something to think about. It's far from ideal, but there are ways to fight against this custom. I like how HeroMystic phrased it. It's beatable, but it's definitely tiring.

 

[Raijinken]

Villager is no more tiring than a minefield of bananas, and far less lethal when his axe is gone.

But yeah, curing ignorance is a big deal. Otherwise we may as well refer to @Thinkaman's excellent post over here.

 

[thehard]

Doesn't Meta Knight's custom side-B go right through the sapling too? (Or was it just the tree)

Also wanna say that people are really exaggerating the hitbox on the sapling. Go in training mode and inch a CPU toward it yourself.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Villager is no more tiring than a minefield of bananas, and far less lethal when his axe is gone.

But yeah, curing ignorance is a big deal. Otherwise we may as well refer to @Thinkaman's excellent post over here.

That post was perfection and it's a shame it got locked.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mm, just wanted to mention, what M2K specifically said about Timber Counter was that it would be OK if the best option for fighting it wasn't waiting 15-20 seconds and doing nothing. Take that as you will.

To me, and I'm no M2K, I would think the strongest counter is rushing Villager down so he never gets a chance to entrench himself.

Rushing Villager down becomes a major issue with characters with slow run speeds and lacking the ability to handle his spacing options. A lot of characters can't handle Villager's camping due to a lack of a projectile or being unable to punish above him.

(I'm going this far so might as well fully explain) Villager's weakness in his camping is actually above him. He has U-air to protect him, but as long as you don't get hit, he either has to land on stage or drift back to the ledge (where he won't have invincibility most likely), or take a hit from a falling aerial. In this case your options open up. Hitting him and frame trapping him can pull the percent/stock lead in your favor where he's forced to get out of his safety net. Alternatively, you can force him back to center stage and keep him away from his trip sapling and force him to fight.

This set shows how effective Fox is against this style. I don't quite do this very well because I gave way too much respect to the trip sapling and I didn't think it'd be as simple as jumping over everything.

Also I severely disagree. Diddy's bananas do not allow Diddy to keep all his options unless he puts it down somewhere, and if you trip, it's gone. Villager's sapling stays there for 15-20 seconds and he can replant it whenever you're not in the position to punish, and he retains all of his options. Villager is much more tiring than Diddy will ever be.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Just read the title of the thread I posted in. I wasted my time posting gripes about customs here LOL. I might as well have posted PM sucks in the PM social.

 

[thehard]

Just read the title of the thread I posted in. I wasted my time posting gripes about customs here LOL. I might as well have posted PM sucks in the PM social.

Don't say that, high-level player input is always appreciated. In fact we'd all probably like if you posted here more. Everyone agreeing with each other can get boring.

 

[warriorman222]

Just read the title of the thread I posted in. I wasted my time posting gripes about customs here LOL. I might as well have posted PM sucks in the PM social.

There's nothing wrong with expressing your opinion. it's just that if you go against something in that something's dedicated thread, don't be surprised when a ton of people come up to defend it.

Moreso since it's Smash 4: Without constant developper support for this scene, our scene runs entirely on what people think of it. If nobody likes the game, nobody will play/watch it, and the scene will die since the devs will not release updates to keep us competitively interested.

If I was part of the SF community, I'd be fine with hate. But this is Smash 4, where if our takeoff goes wrong, there's nothing keeping us from failing.


Then again, everyone agreeing with each other is boring, and I for one love debates.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Just read the title of the thread I posted in. I wasted my time posting gripes about customs here LOL. I might as well have posted PM sucks in the PM social.

Hey man, I may not agree with you, but I do like hearing the input of more players. And I appreciate that you gave a full explanation unlike the Competitive Impressions thread.

What you have to say is still worth talking about on some level. Besides, it's always good to get more opinions, otherwise this thread would become the yes-man thread.

 

[thehard]

I'm just curious @ Seagull Joe , how long have you been playing with customs for? There's a good number of people who frequent this thread that have attended multiple tournaments with customs on and labbed them out for hours on end.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm just curious @ Seagull Joe , how long have you been playing with customs for? There's a good number of people who frequent this thread that have attended multiple tournaments with customs on and labbed them out for hours on end.

I've played tourneys with them on for at least two large scale tournaments (70-80) people. I've also viewed numerous streams/videos, played around with them myself, and I own the guidebook. When I say broken, I MEAN broken. Read some of the things the guidebook says.

Don't say that, high-level player input is always appreciated. In fact we'd all probably like if you posted here more. Everyone agreeing with each other can get boring.

How do you expect high-level player input if you guys flag everything you disagree with?

Even within the scope that this is true, 99% of customs (the only exception off the top of my head being Auto Spindash, which only changes the control method) have a significant drawback that changes the way they're applied. Practically all of the recovery specials have a "stronger recovery but no damage" and/or a "weaker recovery but more damage". Sometimes if it ain't broke don't fix it, but it should be up to the player to decide if they need a better recovery or could risk the worse recovery, etc.

And if the argument is still regarding Donkey Kong The Last Airbender, I'm fairly sure windboxes carry no effect while shielding.

In a game where GET UP ATTACKS break shields, do you think someone would want to fully shield or attempt to shield 's moveset? Mind you, his default side b breaks shield automatically.

I have exactly zero faith in the community's ability to actually step back and go "you know what, we've developed the default specials meta enough, let's try out customs now." There's no fair way to incrementally add customs to the game, it's all or nothing. And defaulting to "nothing" cuts out a lot of options for characters. The fact that customs got pushed hard like this after Apex in the first place is, IMO, a miracle.

Would Average Joe have made it to GF without customs? Maybe, maybe not. But you're glossing over the fact that with customs enabled, DK can compete through GF. I doubt that would be the case if he was stuck with defaults. Other characters I've seen compete in a customs-on GF are Dr. Mario, Wii Fit Trainer, and Palutena. (This of course in addition to the usual suspects of Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, etc.)

Also, I noticed while watching the VOD last night that a lot of people seemed almost uninformed about customs. The commentators thought that Greninja's Shifting Shuriken could be charged just as long as default. (It can't, the move works off of a simple binary tap/hold distinction.) A Villager using Timber Counter landed several hits with the actual tree, both as it grew and by chopping it down, and none of them killed even past 100%. There was a Meta Knight vs. DK set where all 3 matches were on Battlefield, by far DK's best stage to platform cancel his Kong Cyclone. (The Meta Knight still won, which honestly surprised me.) It's true that Kong Cyclone is an excellent combo breaker due to the super armor and windboxes, but if JohnNumbers is able to punish it with WFT of all characters (dem range issues, mmm) then I am decidedly not convinced that it's the overpowered juggernaut it's made out to be. And in a different tournament entirely, the commentators got their description of Mario's Super Jump custom completely wrong.

I mean, if you bust out a full custom set against someone who, for whatever reason, hasn't bothered reading up on them, learning what they do, or practicing against them in general, then no **** you'll probably faceroll just from the surprise factor alone. You can apply the exact same argument to a rarely-used character but that's no excuse to ban the character. And history shows us that we're unwilling to ban overpowered characters, so why are custom specials suddenly under such scrutiny? It seems like the pro-customs crowd is being held to a higher burden of proof.

Finally, you noted elsewhere in your post that the only reason Diddy didn't show up on stream last night is because your area's top Diddy wasn't attending. Okay, let's stipulate that Diddy (and Sheik) still dominate overall in a customs meta. But with customs, you can also give a fighting chance to DK, WFT, Palutena, the list goes on. Probably add Villager and Ganondorf to that list too, plus the rest of whoever's currently high tier to begin with. And given that people living to sometimes insane percents has been a common point of contention with Smash 4, I'm surprised you consider customs allowing kills at 60-70% to be a downside.

You sound like a low tier enthusiast, but I'll debate your points adequately (Paragraph by paragraph).

Paragraph 1: A lot of people are vying to be head community leaders to seek presence in the limelight. They want the spotlight that someone like GIMR has gotten through streaming. NJ/NY has largely been trying to become the leaders of this community and control the ruleset. Provide side events to get data first before changing drastic things like character's movesets.

Paragraph 2: He would not have. Average Joe himself said customs are stupid. I know brokenness. I played and mained PM 3.02 . Do you know what it's like to be able to safely dash attack through someone? To kill someone with an fsmash at 70%? I do. Smash 4 is nothing close to being as good as PM 3.02 . Customs feel similar to this. Feel lucky you don't have to deal with this.

Paragraph 3: EE doesn't know **** about smash 4. He just comments about how players play. Why would you honestly think he knew stuff LMFAO? Also, horizantal up b covers insane range and is fast. You're just wrong. It's spammable. I've watched that ****.

Paragraph 4: Blame NJ/NY for controlling brawl's metagame. AND should have been banned. No question about it.

Paragraph 5: There's a difference between and who have to work for their kills and approach correctly in comparison to just throwing out moves because they have insane priority, kill power, and damage output. and can just throw out moves. Doesn't matter what the opponent is doing. Why try to outspace someone if you can just spam high priority moves?

 

[Raijinken]

I've played tourneys with them on for at least two large scale tournaments (70-80) people. I've also viewed numerous streams/videos, played around with them myself, and I own the guidebook. When I say broken, I MEAN broken. Read some of the things the guidebook says.

How do you expect high-level player input if you guys flag everything you disagree with?

In a game where GET UP ATTACKS break shields, do you think someone would want to fully shield or attempt to shield 's moveset? Mind you, his default side b breaks shield automatically.

What's this guidebook you speak of?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I've played tourneys with them on for at least two large scale tournaments (70-80) people. I've also viewed numerous streams/videos, played around with them myself, and I own the guidebook. When I say broken, I MEAN broken. Read some of the things the guidebook says.

What were the names of these events and when were they?

When you say guidebook, you don't mean the Prima guide do you?

How do you expect high-level player input if you guys flag everything you disagree with?

We just disagree man, 'tis the nature of debate. Though if we came as harsh, I'm sorry.

Your fears are not without merit, but I would really encourage you to look into the individual discussions regarding customs as they have gone into the merits and weaknesses of these customs far deeper than the Prima guide surely has. Maybe the extra knowledge will help qualm your fears, or maybe they'll reinforce them.

 

[Seagull Joe]

What were the names of these events and when were they?

When you say guidebook, you don't mean the Prima guide do you?



We just disagree man, 'tis the nature of debate. Though if we came as harsh, I'm sorry.

Your fears are not without merit, but I would really encourage you to look into the individual discussions regarding customs as they have gone into the merits and weaknesses of these customs far deeper than the Prima guide surely has. Maybe the extra knowledge will help qualm your fears, or maybe they'll reinforce them.

The official guidebook ofc. It tells me damage output and provides descriptions to the moves including super armor, intangibility, etc...

 

[thehard]

How do you expect high-level player input if you guys flag everything you disagree with?

Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean we think your opinions hold no water.

However, you compared customs to items, which is a sentiment that has been shot down many times before. You said that the top 5 players at Xanadu still got top 5, which sounds more in favor of customs than anything. It's been explained how to punish Kong Cyclone before (http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-497#post-18775369, http://smashboards.com/goto/post?id=18553392#post-18553392). There are a great amount of tournament-goers and top players who enjoy customs, and even your fellow player @ DunnoBro said he felt you were exaggerating in this regard.

You then go on to say that "customs are inherently overpowered", which simply isn't true whatsoever (what exactly does this mean anyway?). You bring up the "let the game develop" argument, without realizing that we should be letting the game develop with customs ON. It seems like a meaningless sentiment to me.

Finally, this

The ones who know the game the best and pick the best options should win.

still happens, and tournament results support it.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, you're an excellent player, and I WANT to see you abuse customs if you truly feel they are all broken.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

The official guidebook ofc. It tells me damage output and provides descriptions to the moves including super armor, intangibility, etc...

The thing is, it can sound nice on paper, but from what the players here have said, it really doesn't work as well in practice. I can tell you Fire Shot was once thought to be an incredible move on paper until actually seeing it in action. Heavy Raptor Boost may have super armor yet is still outclassed by normal Raptor boost according to the Falcon boards. Sonic's Hammer Spindash is inconsistent in how good players feel about it, with players like M2K calling it a straight up gimmick.

Guidebooks can give you basic statistics, but only players can give applications.

But hey, I appreciate you taking a level of pro-activity in studying them.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean we think your opinions hold no water.

However, you compared customs to items, which is a sentiment that has been shot down many times before. You said that the top 5 players at Xanadu still got top 5, which sounds more in favor of customs than anything. It's been explained how to punish Kong Cyclone before (http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-497#post-18775369, http://smashboards.com/goto/post?id=18553392#post-18553392). There are a great amount of tournament-goers and top players who enjoy customs, and even your fellow player @ DunnoBro said he felt you were exaggerating in this regard.

You then go on to say that "customs are inherently overpowered", which simply isn't true whatsoever (what exactly does this mean anyway?). You bring up the "let the game develop" argument, without realizing that we should be letting the game develop with customs ON. It seems like a meaningless sentiment to me.

Finally, this still happens, and tournament results support it.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, you're an excellent player, and I WANT to see you abuse customs if you truly feel they are all broken.

You realize 15 frames is 1/4 of a second right lol?

 

[John12346]

How do you expect high-level player input if you guys flag everything you disagree with?

Do you mean some people are actually reporting your posts? I'm sure that, at least the folk here who are trying to carry on the conversation aren't responsible if so, but who would be scummy enough to...?

Provide side events to get data first before changing drastic things like character's movesets.

I can at least speak for NYC that we've been hosting those customs legal tournaments all over the place, and I can confirm that the results have been quite inconsistent, with different people and characters(except dabuz, he's too good) generally taking top 3 from tournament to tournament. We're still keeping a close watch on results between tournaments, but for right now the only thing that seems to happen consistently throughout all of NYC is at least one with no custom moves making it into the money(although that didn't happen with the most recent tournament; call it an outlier or an actual indication of something if you will). If there's a change in this trend I'll keep you posted.

There's a difference between and who have to work for their kills and approach correctly in comparison to just throwing out moves because they have insane priority, kill power, and damage output. and can just throw out moves. Doesn't matter what the opponent is doing. Why try to outspace someone if you can just spam high priority moves?

I respectfully and vehemently disagree with the notion proposed here. In a customs legal environment, all four of those listed characters have moves to help control the pace of neutral (Diddy ground level Uairs, SH Fairs, and Banana, Sheik SH Fairs, Needles, and Bouncing Fish, DK's Dong Nado, Wii Fit's Jumbo Hoop), but all of them do come with their own inherent risks for use. We already know about how to punish Diddy and Sheik's massive priority moves to a reasonable degree... but for Custom Specials... in the recent matchup of me vs. Will in a customs match(I have this distinct feeling you saw it the other day), we were definitely able to punish each others' custom UpBs without resorting to our own UpB to get the job done in multiple different scenarios. And this was only from an entry-level amount of knowledge towards customs.

Also I can't speak for the Dong Nado, but I've had Diddy Fair, Rosalina Fsmash, and basically every sword in existence hit me out of Jumbo Hoop from the side, so that's a thing too...

The official guidebook ofc. It tells me damage output and provides descriptions to the moves including super armor, intangibility, etc...

We have one of these? Can I get a link?

 

[thehard]

You realize 15 frames is 1/4 of a second right lol?

If that were its only weakness, we'd have a problem, but it is very clearly just one piece of the puzzle.