Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[Teshie U]

Seagull, I definitely get where you are coming from about customs, but are you really putting that wii fit jumbo hoop thing as one of the broken ones?

It can be shield grabbed, traded with easily (its only 6 hits) and its extremely laggy. Is there something I don't know about this move that makes it somehow broken?

In the end, I think the strongest customs will be the ones already supported by a strong character. Sheik, Rosalina and Sonic all gain useful tactics from customs and I'd honestly say Diddy gets a couple of interesting sidegrades that shouldn't be ignored. Then you have slightly weaker characters like Mario, Villager, Luigi, Fox, Duck Hunt, Pacman and Wario that all gain some pretty strong stuff.

Customs definitely provide more optimal mixups and with that, the major benefit goes to character that already had alot to work with.

 

[ZarroTsu]

So this is almost done. I'm going to take the few days between now and moveset release to adjust the 'pros' and 'cons'. In fact, I've added some editable columns for Pros and Cons (on the far right) if anyone wants to directly add anything I missed (Or point out flaws in existing pros/cons). I'm unsure if I should really do pros or cons for Mii Fighters since plenty of them are distinct enough that it's hard to really compare them all. Although I already did it for Palutena, so...

(Yes, this is this one from a few pages ago. No portraits because Google Drive won't let me.)

Maybe I'll reserve a post when the new topic goes up so I don't get buried during the time it takes to fill in the numbers.

EDIT: You can actually edit it now. I'm bad at Google Driving.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So this is almost done. I'm going to take the few days between now and moveset release to adjust the 'pros' and 'cons'. In fact, I've added some editable columns for Pros and Cons (on the far right) if anyone wants to directly add anything I missed. I'm unsure if I should really do pros or cons for Mii Fighters since plenty of them are distinct enough that it's hard to really compare them all. Although I already did it for Palutena, so...

(Yes, this is this one from a few pages ago. No portraits because Google Drive won't let me.)

Maybe I'll reserve a post when the new topic goes up so I don't get buried during the time it takes to fill in the numbers.

EDIT: You can actually edit it now. I'm bad at Google Driving.

Some of these are hilarious. Luma Warp con: "-Dabuz." Lightweight pro: "Dragonball Z ****."

Shooting Star Bit isn't particularly damaging though, unless you mean strictly in terms of single-bit damage. And Guardian Luma still pulls in items, just not "regular" projectiles. (Peach's turnips, for instance, still get pulled in.)

 

[ZarroTsu]

Some entries may be in error since I was also using move description in writing some pros or cons. I was in a bit of a rush with some of it as I only started this the other week. If anyone sees similar issues, feel free to note it in the editable pros/cons. I'll take the heat now instead of EVO's release.

(My personal favorite is Rocketbarrel Kaboom)

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Okay, quick thing about putting sets on via 3ds, updating after already having an older projects sets is HELL. it only lets you take new sets but you need to manually pick what to overwrite to avoid deleting an older legit set.

I found this out the hard way a few weeks ago. Probably should have posted something about it.

Appending the name of every set on 3DS with a new label is a smart workaround.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A couple of notes for the Ike customs in that chart:

1) Tempest does deal damage, just only at the sword. Would be more accurate to say "blast deals no damage"

2) Aether Wave also gains additional super armour when landing, probably worth mentioning

3) Aether Drive isn't any more gimpable than normal Aether. It does however have less have a bit of a deadzone for recovering if you're too far down and right below the stage edge.

4) Close Quarter Combat's weakness is less damage

Looking good so far though

 

[ZarroTsu]

Aether Drive isn't any more gimpable than normal Aether.

I put gimpable due to a friendlies match the other day where I was Storm Punch DK. I suppose not the most ample of examples to go from, however I feel it's easier to gimp than regular Aether since you have immediate access to Ike's backside after he moves forward.

It does however have less have a bit of a deadzone for recovering if you're too far down and right below the stage edge.

Could you rephrase this? I'm not sure what you mean.

Added other changes. I recommend using the sheet itself so this topic doesn't get cluttered (although there's not much left to chat about in this topic anyway, but I don't want to derail and crash it).

 

[Teshie U]

A deadzone is any area offstage where a character can't recover from and requires no further interaction from his opponent to be gimped.

 

[Kofu]

Customs Shulk is very potent but if I had to choose between the two, I'd use Villager. He's legit the campiest character in the game with customs on.

I think you mean "Power Vision is very potent."

Anyway, I don't see Villager being an especially powerful camping character, at least not in the way that Samus and Robin (or perhaps more accurately Pac-Man) are. Those three are characters you really don't want to leave to their own devices because they can build up to some powerful projectiles if given the option. Villager? He'll just try to pester you. But if you stay out of slingshot range, he only has Lloid, which is very easy to powershield.

Let's look at Villager's customs and see if they help him camp.

• Garden: nope, if anything it's less campy than regular Pocket. Still a cool move though, it retains the invincibility from regular Pocket and is usable against characters without projectiles (wish Game & Watch got one like that for Oil Panic QQ)
• Pocket Plus: kinda. The bigger grab box is nice, but it makes pocketed projectiles a lot less threatening. I'd probably only use it against Ness for his recovery, possibly on characters with spawnable items (ROB, Diddy, Pac-Man)
• Liftoff Lloid: no, although its steep vertical angle may come in handy. A lot of Villagers have dismissed it but I think it has potential if you can do without the horizontal control regular Lloid offers.
• Pushy Lloid: this is an interesting side-grade to his default Side-B. It doesn't die to almost everything like the regular (instead actually lasting the full 12% HP) which helps it stuff projectiles better. It's much weaker than regular Lloid though and its range is about half.
• Extreme Balloon Trip: IMO this is a bigger problem than Timber Counter because it allows him to camp the ledge. When he grabs it, a balloon floats up through the stage and acts as a mine that is detonated by either attacking it or Villager using the move again. However, it doesn't go as high as the default without exploding the balloons, and Villager can't grab the ledge until the descent if he does that.
• Balloon High Jump: nope, doesn't help him camp. The least flexible of his recoveries but the quickest at moving.
• Timber Counter: here's the elephant in the room, an immovable banana that can grow to form a Sudowobbuffet. He can camp behind it and make approaching a real chore. It's got some drawbacks though: Villager has to either wait out the sapling's duration if he wants to move it or grow it and chop it down, the tree only has 15% HP and doesn't counter the attack that kills it, and a substantial loss of kill power from the default. The other kicker is that, to my knowledge, it works best on flat stages, but Villager tends to prefer stages with platforms. Transforming stages also nullify a lot of its effectiveness since the transformations remove the sapling!
• Super Timber: this move would be a lot better if the sapling and tree didn't inexplicably have the shortest duration of the variants. Every aspect of the move is super sized and several are slowed down. The axe is much slower which weakens its usefulness as an offensive tool. However, the tree has 50% HP compared to the default's 30%, and the watering can has greater pushback, which is probably the most interesting part of the move.

Timber Counter is a problem for characters with bad mobility or those that like to stay close to the ground, but Villager's bad MUs aren't really affected by it at all. I don't see Villager as a camping character; if he's playing defensively it's because that's how his neutral goes! He is bad at approaching with a mediocre ground game and poor mobility (it's almost Robin level). What he wants to do is throw out hitboxes until you mess up which allows him to go in his impressive advantage. I see him as a trap character, something I agree with @Antonykun on (who is the best Villager I've played). He probably won't see this tag since I had to edit it in but I want to credit him for it all the same.

 

[Piford]

I think you mean "Power Vision is very potent."

And Hyper Arts and Advancing Airslash, with a mix of Dash Vision here and there.

So this is almost done. I'm going to take the few days between now and moveset release to adjust the 'pros' and 'cons'. In fact, I've added some editable columns for Pros and Cons (on the far right) if anyone wants to directly add anything I missed (Or point out flaws in existing pros/cons). I'm unsure if I should really do pros or cons for Mii Fighters since plenty of them are distinct enough that it's hard to really compare them all. Although I already did it for Palutena, so...

(Yes, this is this one from a few pages ago. No portraits because Google Drive won't let me.)

Maybe I'll reserve a post when the new topic goes up so I don't get buried during the time it takes to fill in the numbers.

EDIT: You can actually edit it now. I'm bad at Google Driving.

The description for Iai counter is wrong in the game, it's actually more powerful with a smaller active window.

 

[ZarroTsu]

A deadzone is any area offstage where a character can't recover from and requires no further interaction from his opponent to be gimped.

Alright, I put in 'Recovery deadzone' for the time being. If someone can phrase it in a (short, concise) way that newbies can understand it better, please do.

Can anyone confirm if Panic Overload does less damage?

The description for Iai counter is wrong in the game, it's actually more powerful with a smaller active window.

SAKURAAAAAAAIIIII

 

[SoniCraft]

Yeah villager may be able to create some space, but he surely cannot close it very easily if the opponent reacts appropriately. Villager battles change drastically depending on who has the lead. If villager has the lead, his opponent will have a rough time, but if the opponent has a lead, villager could possibly have a rough time as well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I put gimpable due to a friendlies match the other day where I was Storm Punch DK. I suppose not the most ample of examples to go from, however I feel it's easier to gimp than regular Aether since you have immediate access to Ike's backside after he moves forward.


Could you rephrase this? I'm not sure what you mean.

Added other changes. I recommend using the sheet itself so this topic doesn't get cluttered (although there's not much left to chat about in this topic anyway, but I don't want to derail and crash it).

Its kinda hard to describe. I'd recommend just trying to recover from different angles with both Aether and Aether Dive from under the stage. You'll see what I mean.

Aether Dive in generally is harder to gimp, it can poke through the stage more safely, and its harder to estimate where he's going to end up compared to straight up above him.

 

[Kofu]

Can anyone confirm if Panic Overload does less damage?

From three Thunders from Robin (3% apiece):
Oil Panic: 25% (probably 25.2%)
Panic Overload: 22.5%

Luigi's Fireball (6% damage apiece):
Oil Panic: 50% (pretty certain it's actually 50.4%)
Panic Overload: 45%

Elthunder (9% apiece):
Oil Panic: 60% (seems to be its damage cap; a bucketed Bob-omb does the same)
Panic Overload: 45% (much lower damage cap!)

And, for kicks, Efficient Panic's stuff:
Thunder: 10% (probably its lower limit)
Fireball: 12%
Elthunder: 18%

So a basic rundown of the multipliers:
Oil Panic: 2.8x with a 60% cap
Efficient Panic: 2x with a 10% lower limit and a 24% cap
Panic Overload: 2.5x with a 45% cap

 

[SoniCraft]

From three Thunders from Robin (3% apiece):
Oil Panic: 25% (probably 25.2%)
Panic Overload: 22.5%

Luigi's Fireball (6% damage apiece):
Oil Panic: 50% (pretty certain it's actually 50.4%)
Panic Overload: 45%

Elthunder (9% apiece):
Oil Panic: 60% (seems to be its damage cap; a bucketed Bob-omb does the same)
Panic Overload: 45% (much lower damage cap!)

And, for kicks, Efficient Panic's stuff:
Thunder: 10% (probably its lower limit)
Fireball: 12%
Elthunder: 18%

So a basic rundown of the multipliers:
Oil Panic: 2.8x with a 60% cap
Efficient Panic: 2x with a 10% lower limit and a 24% cap
Panic Overload: 2.5x with a 45% cap

Do you mind saying what the advantages to using the alternative buckets are?

 

[extrasensory]

Do you mind saying what the advantages to using the alternative buckets are?

efficient only requires one projectile to fill it but is much weaker while overload has a smaller area that it can absorb projectiles within but the attack covers a much greater area (and is apparently slightly weaker)

 

[Kofu]

Do you mind saying what the advantages to using the alternative buckets are?

It's hard to say since I actually haven't played around with them in actual matches much, but consider the following:

• Efficient Panic has much less range.
• I'd hypothetically use Efficient Panic in MUs where it's risky to collect three levels of regular Oil Panic (levels 1 and 2 of the default have a lot of lag) or where the bucketed projectiles are weak. I'm thinking MUs like Mega Man, Fox, and Falco.
• Panic Overload has a smaller collection radius but I believe that it keeps you safe from projectiles if you would get hit (I'll get back to you on that).
• Panic Overload really is a massive attack. The range is insane. That's the main reason to use it.
• Panic Overload's attack is really, really, laggy. If you whiff or don't break their shield when close you'll probably be punished. I also wouldn't recommend using it offstage.

 

[Raijinken]

Alright, I put in 'Recovery deadzone' for the time being. If someone can phrase it in a (short, concise) way that newbies can understand it better, please do.

Can anyone confirm if Panic Overload does less damage?


SAKURAAAAAAAIIIII

If you need to, term it as "If you're directly below the ledge at a distance where Aether would work, this won't." Because that's what it really means. You start moving diagonally, not strictly upward, so unless you either are close to the edge to begin with, or back off to adjust your angle, you're going to slam right into the underside of the stage instetad of going upward.

Anyways, I don't think it's super critical to be specific on terminology as long as the person using Ike is a reasonable player willing to explain the move's wonk to a new player. If the player is too new to understand what a recovery dead zone is, then we should be helping them expand their knowledge anyway.

 

[Remzi]

What is the general consensus on what the counter-play is to a villager that has a lead with trip-sapling? Any video references?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Since it came up, Panic Overload's absorb area is small enough to leave G&W vulnerable from behind. It also has a weaker oil spill but the spill itself is massive.

 

[warriorman222]

So this is almost done. I'm going to take the few days between now and moveset release to adjust the 'pros' and 'cons'. In fact, I've added some editable columns for Pros and Cons (on the far right) if anyone wants to directly add anything I missed (Or point out flaws in existing pros/cons). I'm unsure if I should really do pros or cons for Mii Fighters since plenty of them are distinct enough that it's hard to really compare them all. Although I already did it for Palutena, so...

(Yes, this is this one from a few pages ago. No portraits because Google Drive won't let me.)

Maybe I'll reserve a post when the new topic goes up so I don't get buried during the time it takes to fill in the numbers.

EDIT: You can actually edit it now. I'm bad at Google Driving.

Lmao you should have gave the pro for Luma Warp "Instant Transmisssion".

 

[Seiniyta]

When can we expect the list to be updated on the first page etc? I'd love to already update it on my WiiU and some of the WIiu's of my firneds

 

[Pazx]

When can we expect the list to be updated on the first page etc? I'd love to already update it on my WiiU and some of the WIiu's of my firneds

Before the 27th.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Dang. I get back from work and practically the whole editable list is full of notes. You guys rock.

I've added a "notes" column for certain details about a custom move that isn't necessarily a pro or a con, but may relate to them.

 

[Splash Damage]

Also, horizantal up b covers insane range and is fast. You're just wrong. It's spammable. I've watched that ****.
can just throw out moves. Doesn't matter what the opponent is doing. Why try to outspace someone if you can just spam high priority moves?

You've just watched it, not played against it? All due respect, didn't you just say that people supporting customs have little ground to stand on for lack of actual match experience?
Just wanna say: I've used it myself just for the sake of testing, and WFT's custom Up-B is hilariously punishable due to the landing lag it has. Run or roll to the opposite end of the stage, shield the few remaining hits it has after the time it takes to catch up, then punish the 30+ frames of landing lag with whatever you please. Charge a jump cancelled up smash, use a strong dash attack if your character has one, grab into a 20% string, anything. You can even use it to gain stage control or charge up a neutral B depending on your character. I will say that it shouldn't have the shield damage it does, but if you're just sitting there shielding and attack knowing the shield damage it applies instead of taking any other defensive action, then the move's not the problem here.

So this is almost done. I'm going to take the few days between now and moveset release to adjust the 'pros' and 'cons'. In fact, I've added some editable columns for Pros and Cons (on the far right) if anyone wants to directly add anything I missed (Or point out flaws in existing pros/cons). I'm unsure if I should really do pros or cons for Mii Fighters since plenty of them are distinct enough that it's hard to really compare them all. Although I already did it for Palutena, so...

(Yes, this is this one from a few pages ago. No portraits because Google Drive won't let me.)

Maybe I'll reserve a post when the new topic goes up so I don't get buried during the time it takes to fill in the numbers.

EDIT: You can actually edit it now. I'm bad at Google Driving.

This looks pretty good, I have some things for
Flaming Straight Lunge:
+Charge Speed enables him to use it to recover, giving him a much needed mixup to recover
+Super armor in midair;can eat through all hits of rShiek's up air &Fair, other aerials like it
Grounding Blow:
+Gives him more ability to make his recovery more unpredictable with the janky angle with the spikebox and rise in height

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dang. I get back from work and practically the whole editable list is full of notes. You guys rock.

I've added a "notes" column for certain details about a custom move that isn't necessarily a pro or a con, but may relate to them.

I spent a half an hour doing a lot of those.

 

[Splash Damage]

Lmao you should have gave the pro for Luma Warp "Instant Transmisssion".

Snaring Aura Sphere, of course the Spirit Bomb.

 

[Pyr]

Snaring Aura Sphere, of course the Spirit Bomb.

The number of seconds it travels is the number of episodes it'd take to travel if Smash was in the DBZ universe.

 

[warriorman222]

The number of seconds it travels is the number of episodes it'd take to travel if Smash was in the DBZ universe.

Butbutbut Goku is in SSF2!

 

[ZarroTsu]

I am not turning the sheet into a DBZ flowchart. Only Palutena.

E: Regarding Wakie Wakie being, quote, "Arguably the worst move in the game", the hitbox is ****ing massive on that thing how is it the worst? I got kills at like 60-80% with it in training at max range, too.

E2: Cleaned up the revisable half of the sheet and added them to the current half. Thank you to all who helped out. Still a few in the revisable that I'm not sure how to translate or what they mean.

 

[warriorman222]

I am not turning the sheet into a DBZ flowchart. Only Palutena.

E: Regarding Wakie Wakie being, quote, "Arguably the worst move in the game", the hitbox is ****ing massive on that thing how is it the worst? I got kills at like 60-80% with it in training at max range, too.

E2: Cleaned up the revisable half of the sheet and added them to the current half. Thank you to all who helped out. Still a few in the revisable that I'm not sure how to translate or what they mean.

Wakie Wakie isn't the Worst. Tornado uppercut is the worst. You ruin every single MU on a platforms stage, in exchange for 5% more recovery distance.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd also throw Heavenly Light in the running for "worst special move in the game."

 

[ZarroTsu]

Someone wrote "Kill % close=33, far=87%" in the notes for Pikachu's "Quick Feet". I don't have console access at the moment, could someone confirm that this move can kill at 33%?

 

[Pyr]

Spinphony is really the worst of them. Lasts longer then Rest's sleeping duration, does next to no knockback, doesn't sleep, hit times are so far apart that anything faster then a Ganonpunch can hit jigs from it.

At least Mac's recovery up-B can help him. At least Wakie-Wakie can form some traps or make up-bing onto the stage a risk. At least Heavenly Light can do moderate damage before you take a knee to her face.

Jig's 3rd Up-B literally has no use. Recovering low negates a large part of it's only use-as an edge guard. But it's JIGGLY! Why aren't you out there Fair and Bairing people to death?

Unless I'm missing something about the special...

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Ummm, it flips Yoshi's double-jump and Bowser's armored attacks around? Other than that I got nothing.

 

[Pyr]

Here is it's frame data:

1. Frame 57-59: 0.5% 1f/1w 270° 0.0-Hitlag
2. Frame 59-59: 0.5% 0b/0g 110° Cape
3. Frame 123-125: 0.5% 1f/1w 270° 0.0-Hitlag
4. Frame 125-125: 0.5% 0b/0g 110° Cape
5. Frame 197-203: 1% 1f/1w 270° 0.0-Hitlag
6. Frame 198-203: 1% 0b/0g 110° Cape
7. Max Damage: 2%

It takes over 3 seconds to have it's LAST hitbox come out, not to mention that it has lag after that as well. It's a full second before the first one comes out. It's kinda insane. O.O Possibly the worst risk vs reward out of all moves in smash history.

Edit: I care more then I should, but... Absolutely hate the custom Up-Bs for the little puffball.

 

[warriorman222]

Someone wrote "Kill % close=33, far=87%" in the notes for Pikachu's "Quick Feet". I don't have console access at the moment, could someone confirm that this move can kill at 33%?

Oh, that was me. It was meant for Heavy Skull Bash., and in point blank on Ninjalink's stream, I saw it kill Mario at 33%.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I feel I should explain what's going on to you guys. We took what all of the individual character boards have done and compiled the sets. "We" was a panel consisting of me, Numbers, Thinkaman, Reflex, and Ninjalink that dedicated basically the entirety of the last two nights to piecing everything together (massive thanks to all of them for being willing to spend that much time helping out!). I've drafted the supplemental text (like explaining what the project is, how to use it, stuff about Mewtwo and Mii Fighters). I'm currently in communication with SamuraiPanda who is talking with some strong and/or notable players who don't regularly use Smashboards so their custom move preferences can be accounted for; we want to get that sorted out before the list goes public so we don't end up telling people to keep changing things without really good reason. Hopefully we'll be able to post things tomorrow evening.

The last minute changes have, unfortunately, precluded me doing the detailed reasoning write-ups I was planning to do. They were pretty intense, probably more intense than I was ready to do for 51 characters honestly (it would have taken me all night). I will instead, after posting the EVO sets, just answer anyone's questions; that will be a more efficient way for me not to write a dissertation about why sets are the way they are when we mostly stuck very close to what the character boards agreed upon and when we had to deviate did so with the collective wisdom of what I feel is really a custom-move all-star panel (and we did everything with unanimous consent of the group after a reasoned discussion; we never had to vote on anything).

Sorry for the delay in that regard, but this is *precisely* why I built in that 10 day buffer window. I do want to be able to deliver a finished product to you guys ASAP though.

 

[---]

Good to hear, the Mega Man boards couldn't make up our minds on anything beyond 1311. Heck our Leaf/Plant Poll is still at about a 20/20 tie. Especially good news to hear Ninjalink's helping out as well in that regard.

Can't wait for the results.

 

[Pyr]

I feel I should explain what's going on to you guys. We took what all of the individual character boards have done and compiled the sets. "We" was a panel consisting of me, Numbers, Thinkaman, Reflex, and Ninjalink that dedicated basically the entirety of the last two nights to piecing everything together (massive thanks to all of them for being willing to spend that much time helping out!). I've drafted the supplemental text (like explaining what the project is, how to use it, stuff about Mewtwo and Mii Fighters). I'm currently in communication with SamuraiPanda who is talking with some strong and/or notable players who don't regularly use Smashboards so their custom move preferences can be accounted for; we want to get that sorted out before the list goes public so we don't end up telling people to keep changing things without really good reason. Hopefully we'll be able to post things tomorrow evening.

The last minute changes have, unfortunately, precluded me doing the detailed reasoning write-ups I was planning to do. They were pretty intense, probably more intense than I was ready to do for 51 characters honestly (it would have taken me all night). I will instead, after posting the EVO sets, just answer anyone's questions; that will be a more efficient way for me not to write a dissertation about why sets are the way they are when we mostly stuck very close to what the character boards agreed upon and when we had to deviate did so with the collective wisdom of what I feel is really a custom-move all-star panel (and we did everything with unanimous consent of the group after a reasoned discussion; we never had to vote on anything).

Sorry for the delay in that regard, but this is *precisely* why I built in that 10 day buffer window. I do want to be able to deliver a finished product to you guys ASAP though.

Take your time. I'm confident you've put more time into your project then anyone else on the boards. Except maybe @ParanoidDrone.