Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[NegaMawile]

I would like to point out that "wobbling" as a technique is up for banning at the TO's discretion. A lot of this **** is, really.

Whether or not it's actually broken, well...

Smooth Criminal

I meant universally. But you are right. It really comes down to the TO. But I don't think a good option should ever be banned. Unless its terribly unhealthy for the meta game. And we're still in the infancy of Smash4 not to speak of customs Smash4. Let it live and someone will find a way around it. People probably have already.

 

[thehard]

Command grabs you guys!

Kong Cyclone is just a good tool for DK, it doesn't in any way negate his flaws. Not banworthy.

 

[Ansou]

If we for some reason would get proof in big tournaments that Kong Cyclone is really broken and destroys the metagame, then we should start considering if we should ban it or not. Until then, we wait. Patience is really important here.

 

[Splash Damage]

Wobbling is the most "powerful" technique in Smash.
Wobbling is not banned.
Nothing less effective then wobbling needs to be banned.
Kong Cyclone doesn't need to be banned.

Technically any technique equal to or stronger than the Wobble on any character stronger and higher tier than ICs would need to be banned, but that doesn't apply to DK much.

 

[DelxDoom]

i said mach tornado is "one of the most broken moves in smash history" and DK's custom up b is similar. and you bring up shine and wobbling being more broken. that has nothing to do with the discussion, wobbling has nothing to do with either of these two moves, and arguing that wobbling is more broken than x is a very convoluted argument in the first place.

it's smash bros. there are things other than killing off a grab with a partially AI controlled character in a correct spot (also; being alive) that make a character "good" or "top tier". such as grabbing an edge with metaknight in brawl... or picking metaknight on delfino/halberd in brawl.

please, talk about the attributes of the move in question.

a new factor that must be considered is that custom moves are much more easily regulated than base moves like mach tornado, shine, and IC grab combos.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

But Mach Tornado is nowhere near broken. This notion was kind of reinforced by allowing Metaknight to see the light of competitive play up until the end of Brawl's lifespan.

Sooooooooooo we should probably let this **** rock, then?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Piford]

i said mach tornado is "one of the most broken moves in smash history" and DK's custom up b is similar. and you bring up shine and wobbling being more broken. that has nothing to do with the discussion, wobbling has nothing to do with either of these two moves, and arguing that wobbling is more broken than x is a very convoluted argument in the first place.

it's smash bros. there are things other than killing off a grab with a partially AI controlled character in a correct spot (also; being alive) that make a character "good" or "top tier". such as grabbing an edge with metaknight in brawl... or picking metaknight on delfino/halberd in brawl.

please, talk about the attributes of the move in question.

a new factor that must be considered is that custom moves are much more easily regulated than base moves like mach tornado, shine, and IC grab combos.

Mach Tornado was a really good move (Shuttle Loop was probably better though) on an amazing character. Mach Tornado isn't broken, and even if Meta Knight didn't have it he'd probably still be top tier .

Kong Cyclone is also a good move (granted not as good from what I can tell) on an okay character. Kong Cyclone especially isn't broken and without it Donkey Kong is probably like low-mid tier.

By chance if Kong Cyclone ends up being too hard to deal with and completely centralizing to the meta game where every match is DK versus DK and only seeing Kong Cyclones then we can consider banning it, but banning it without any testing just because people don't have experience against it is a very scrubby move.

 

[Splash Damage]

It's not about how good Mach Tornado is, it's about how good Meta Knight was already. If, say, Brawl Captain Falcon had Mach Tornado, it wouldn't matter nearly as much, because Falcon was a very low-tier character in that game, and having just one very useful too that could lead to powerful conversions wouldn't really matter much. Brawl Metaknight on the other hand could have easily been the best character in the game even without Mach Tornado, and giving a character with such incredibly fast, safe, and strong options a move that could make those options even more strong and safe was what made MT broken.
Donkey Kong is not nearly as good as Brawl Metaknight in vanilla, and having an option that makes all of his more powerful and safe won't bring him to broken levels, just viable levels. That last statement could be proven wrong, however, if we see something contrary to it at a Xanadu or TLOC event.

 

[DelxDoom]

But Mach Tornado is nowhere near broken. This notion was kind of reinforced by allowing Metaknight to see the light of competitive play up until the end of Brawl's lifespan.

Sooooooooooo we should probably let this **** rock, then?

Smooth Criminal

clearly our definitions of "broken" aren't matching up, so instead of using a general blanket term, i'll just (again) list out attributes of the move that were definitely a factor when metaknight was banned (two polls with a majority vote of ban, and then an official ban by Unity)
-Can be made safe by movement. At worst, punishing it is a mixup due to being able to travel and vary how long it takes.
-Multi hit. Can shield stab on worn down shields.
-Very active. Punishes dodges sort of automatically.
-Very high priority.

This move definitely made the metaknight matchup a nightmare for a large portion of the brawl cast (yes, in conjunction with other aspects of metaknight), and potentially made many characters simply not viable due to the metaknight matchup.

Again, custom moves offer a unique ability to prevent people from using certain moves in a match. This is not possible with mach tornado in brawl. Hypothetical situations such as Metaknight not having mach tornado in brawl don't exist in the same way DK not having his cyclone Up B in Smash4 do.

------------------

There are certain attributes of DK's custom up B that I think are EXTREMELY questionable.
They are Armor and 0 landing lag. This means that, past frame 16 as i have reportedly been told, the move is completely safe if the landing lag cancel is performed correctly. The only way to punish would be a theoretical 1 frame grab that can reach a platform, otherwise DK can roll or otherwise avoid a punish.

The Up B's other attributes; large hitbox, decent power, and movement control-ability aren't that amazing by themselves, but become quite a force when put together, especially with armor and 0 landing lag.

----------------

What are the potential weaknesses of this move? (i still don't understand why no one has even bothered to attempt to discuss this) - Needing platforms. Final D/Smashville make this move much less effective.

Also, the large windbox barely affects shields. Facing vs a DK using this move, you can shield the entire duration while being out of range of its physical hitbox and be relatively unaffected while he must land on a platform. The problem here is that if you are already not in position to harass him on the platform, he can easily get out of that situation and reset into another possible Up B.
------------------

tl;dr. I'm sorry I brought up mach tornado, as arguments about whether or not it was broken enough to warrant a ban don't have any bearing on this game now, and it really distracted yall.

Now please let's talk more about the move, countering/dealing with it, and not general statements like that wobbling argument.

 

[Lavani]

What are the potential weaknesses of this move? (i still don't understand why no one has even bothered to attempt to discuss this) - Needing platforms. Final D/Smashville make this move much less effective.

Also, the large windbox barely affects shields. Facing vs a DK using this move, you can shield the entire duration while being out of range of its physical hitbox and be relatively unaffected while he must land on a platform. The problem here is that if you are already not in position to harass him on the platform, he can easily get out of that situation and reset into another possible Up B.

I'm no expert on DK, but these are the two main drawbacks I see to it:

- With only a starting and ending hitbox, there's 30 frames in the middle of the attack grounded (35 airborne) where there's no active hitbox. If you shield the first hit you can grab DK before the second. If he isn't starting the attack on your face, there's nothing to keep you from shielding or airdodging during the suction before the second hit.
- The default grounded upB has superarmor that comes out frame 8, facilitating use as an OoS option. Kong Cyclone's superarmor doesn't start until frame 20 (the attack itself starts 19f for both).

So, granted, there are definitely more upsides than downsides to the move, but I watch matches like this and I feel like it's more the sort of thing that janks you if you don't respect it rather than actually being a broken move.

 

[DunnoBro]

Question.

So with the save editor, you can get all the customs. You can apparently also edit your saves.

Is it possible to get a save with all the custom sets pre-installed? Because holy **** this is taking forever.

Someone's working on a set editor over at GBAtemp.net that will do just that.

https://gbatemp.net/threads/deprecated-3ds-sm4sh-equipment-editor.380799/page-3#post-5336328

Feel free to send the dev notice of interest for his project so he may perhaps speed it up or at least keep us informed. It'd be a pretty big deal.

@ KongCyclone: It's pretty close to legitimately broken on Battlefield, the stage is very small making the large hitbox extremely difficult to avoid while also remaining in a position to punish/pressure. As well as the platforms allowing a lot of freedom to cancel since you can never know which he'll really go for..

It's not an issue on lylat since it's bigger and the slanted edges mess up the hitbox a bit.

But it only gets to Mach levels of difficult to punish on battlefield, really. Halberd's single platform makes it easy to know where he's going, as does delfinos large overlapping ones make it just a matter of another jump to punish.

On FD, Smashville, Town and City, Duck Hunt, and likely other stages it's unable to be brought out that often without being punished.

Against DK though, just remember to strike BF and things don't get too ridiculous.

I played LOT against kong cyclone, too. Average Joe and his friends are huge DK fans and cyclone is on every custom set. It's annoying at first but I figured out it was just really battlefield that made it unbearably dumb since he can throw it out at literally any time.

 

[Raijinken]

Yea, seeing as it's completely possible in regular stage rules right now to never have to go to any single stage you don't like (Battlefield, in this case), no issues with DK. The only slight issue there could come from the character pick swap happening after the stage is selected. If someone takes me to Battlefield, I'm free to swap to DK at that point.

But I don't think it's that polarizing. It deals virtually no shield damage, is susceptible to command grabs, is roughly useless on the ground, etc.

Theory is one thing, but until I see people swap to Large Kong, I will not support any sort of ban on it.

The only thing warranting ban consideration is Olimar's amp glitch, which is only worth considering in doubles.

 

[Teshie U]

I'm not sure if the Pikmin glitch is really that bad in doubles. Doesn't it require some precise timing from both players to set up as well as being limited to what attacks can trigger the glitch.

As dumb as it is, don't we already have some built in dumb gimmicks to default specials that get abusive? Anything involving Villager, Ness, GameNWatch etc. tends to turn into that sort of broken nonsense simply because they are abusing moves meants to be counterattacks.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

There's a Diddy on Team Spooky's stream putting in a lot of work with Rocketbarrel Attack. As dodge bait, followups from bananas, hoo hah substitutes, and it kills ridonkulously early.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

That Rocketbarrel killer definitely looks like trouble. While it definitely neuters his recovery. The sheer damage it does is unnerving.

 

[DelxDoom]

my roommate was upset with the "standard" sets because they didn't have rocketbarrel attack

i haven't had success dealing with cyclone kong with bowser's dash slam.

DKwill is running off the stage, using cyclone kong and landing on the main stage with 0 lag, which is pretty crazy

I believe I know the move you speak of, and this post is very silly if I'm correct.
DK dittos on battlefield? Are you actually serious?

honestly yes. i can't figure out what beats DK on that stage right now.
and i dunno if banning it every time is something you want to do b/c of other characters like diddy on halberd.

----

dk will just pseudo spiked john numbers with the windbox on up b ????

 

[Chiroz]

clearly our definitions of "broken" aren't matching up, so instead of using a general blanket term, i'll just (again) list out attributes of the move that were definitely a factor when metaknight was banned (two polls with a majority vote of ban, and then an official ban by Unity)
-Can be made safe by movement. At worst, punishing it is a mixup due to being able to travel and vary how long it takes.
-Multi hit. Can shield stab on worn down shields.
-Very active. Punishes dodges sort of automatically.
-Very high priority.

This move definitely made the metaknight matchup a nightmare for a large portion of the brawl cast (yes, in conjunction with other aspects of metaknight), and potentially made many characters simply not viable due to the metaknight matchup.

Again, custom moves offer a unique ability to prevent people from using certain moves in a match. This is not possible with mach tornado in brawl. Hypothetical situations such as Metaknight not having mach tornado in brawl don't exist in the same way DK not having his cyclone Up B in Smash4 do.

------------------

There are certain attributes of DK's custom up B that I think are EXTREMELY questionable.
They are Armor and 0 landing lag. This means that, past frame 16 as i have reportedly been told, the move is completely safe if the landing lag cancel is performed correctly. The only way to punish would be a theoretical 1 frame grab that can reach a platform, otherwise DK can roll or otherwise avoid a punish.

The Up B's other attributes; large hitbox, decent power, and movement control-ability aren't that amazing by themselves, but become quite a force when put together, especially with armor and 0 landing lag.

----------------

What are the potential weaknesses of this move? (i still don't understand why no one has even bothered to attempt to discuss this) - Needing platforms. Final D/Smashville make this move much less effective.

Also, the large windbox barely affects shields. Facing vs a DK using this move, you can shield the entire duration while being out of range of its physical hitbox and be relatively unaffected while he must land on a platform. The problem here is that if you are already not in position to harass him on the platform, he can easily get out of that situation and reset into another possible Up B.
------------------

tl;dr. I'm sorry I brought up mach tornado, as arguments about whether or not it was broken enough to warrant a ban don't have any bearing on this game now, and it really distracted yall.

Now please let's talk more about the move, countering/dealing with it, and not general statements like that wobbling argument.

One thing to everyone reading thing thread. I am fairly certain the armor stops at some point during the move. I have hit a DK out of the Tornado when it's about to end at least 3 times by DIng into DK and N-Aring as the windbox pushes me towards him. I can't do it consistently though as most often than not DK will be the one to hit you with the Up-B.

 

[thehard]

So, is "time constraints" a dead in the water argument for no customs yet? I'm not even talking about the Project. I've been watching tournament streams all day and noticed the time wasted scrolling through nametags, making new nametags, spamming the CSS for funsies, false starts, handwarmers, coaching, and literally nothing happening.

Then on Team Sp00ky's stream Will and a couple of others uploaded their 3DS sets and it took all of 10 seconds.

Also gonna stress that since I'm pretty sure Will is going to EVO, his sets 1231 and 3231 should definitely be included in the Project.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So I was watching Team Sp00ky's customs tournament (half on stream, half on VOD since I had stuff to do after a while) and noticed some interesting things going on.

Rocketbarrel Attack: Can't steer as much or go as high, but the knockback is much higher. It was used as a followup from bananas, airdodge traps, ledge traps, and hoo-hah substitutes, and the fact it can be charged before release seemed to be a point in its favor. It was really a bit distressing to watch.

Shadow Blade: Aerolink NinjaLink used this for grab and usmash setups on the return hit and some interesting barriers to make recovery difficult. Of note, if Kirby copies Mega Man he still gets Metal Blade, which has superior range.

Timber Counter: Just an amusing thing I saw where Villager used fair several times in a row to push Diddy Kong back into the sapling for repeated trips.

Tornado Hold: Something I didn't realize about this move (because I don't really use Mega Man) is a) it lingers for a while once it's used and b) the fan that generates the tornado falls down if it's used in midair.

Storm Punch: Windbox put to interesting use. I'm insufficiently knowledgeable about DK to really understand how best to use it but Will liked it.

Then there's things like Extreme Balloon Trip and Luma Warp that we already knew were good.

 

[thehard]

So I was watching Team Sp00ky's customs tournament (half on stream, half on VOD since I had stuff to do after a while) and noticed a some interesting things going on.

Rocketbarrel Attack: Can't steer as much or go as high, but the knockback is much higher. It was used as a followup from bananas, airdodge traps, ledge traps, and hoo-hah substitutes, and the fact it can be charged before release seemed to be a point in its favor. It was really a bit distressing to watch.

Shadow Blade: Aerolink used this for grab and usmash setups on the return hit and some interesting barriers to make recovery difficult. Of note, if Kirby copies Mega Man he still gets Metal Blade, which has superior range.

Timber Counter: Just an amusing thing I saw where Villager used fair several times in a row to push Diddy Kong back into the sapling for repeated trips.

Tornado Hold: Something I didn't realize about this move (because I don't really use Mega Man) is a) it lingers for a while once it's used and b) the fan that generates the tornado falls down if it's used in midair.

Storm Punch: Windbox put to interesting use. I'm insufficiently knowledgeable about DK to really understand how best to use it but Will liked it.

Then there's things like Extreme Balloon Trip and Luma Warp that we already knew were good.

*NinjaLink

What is it with Smashers and small variants of the same name? AeroLink, NinjaLink, Mr. E, Mr. R, Zex, Xzax, Hax, Axe, Anti, Ally...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

*NinjaLink

What is it with Smashers and small variants of the same name? AeroLink, NinjaLink, Mr. E, Mr. R, Zex, Xzax, Hax, Axe, Anti, Ally...

Changed it, thanks.

And IDK why either. But it does help me out a bit, my name is rather unique. (Not that I've been to many tournaments but it gives me an internet identity.)

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea the "time constraints" argument is quickly becoming moot. In addition to the abundance of 3ds units, there was already about half of the set-ups at Xanadu with all their customs unlocked. (not sets, unlocked) and also many say they've gotten them almost all or completely unlocked since they started using the turbo method.

I'm currently running a test with my friends completely new Smash Wii U save and running my optimized turbo method on it for him so I can collect the data. Archiving it in google docs for all to see later, but so far it seems feasible they can be unlocked all within a single work week. It may be possible around 3 days...

I'll post my results when they're all unlocked. This will be the third Wii U unit i'd have unlocked all customs for... Though by far it'll be the easiest.

 

[Raijinken]

I like the Shadow Blade strategy. I think it's worth using on at least a set or two, despite the strength of the Metal Blade.

I'd also like to put in a word for 1312 Villager. While Extreme Balloon Trip is definitely great, having that extra recovery with sweetspot-capabilities from default balloon trip could be really nice, especially in doubles where you can't safely pop with the exploding balloons since they can't snap.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I like the Metal Blade strategy. I think it's worth using on at least a set or two, despite the strength of the Metal Blade.

I'd also like to put in a word for 1312 Villager. While Extreme Balloon Trip is definitely great, having that extra recovery with sweetspot-capabilities from default balloon trip could be really nice, especially in doubles where you can't safely pop with the exploding balloons since they can't snap.

I assume you mean Shadow Blade?

 

[Raijinken]

I assume you mean Shadow Blade?

Or the Boomerang Cutter or Shotgun Ice or Rolling Shield or whatever, I've played too many Megaman games to get the names straight all the time.

But yes, I meant the Shadow Blade, and have adjusted my post accordingly.

 

[DelxDoom]

megaman imo
metal blade and shadow blade have merit. shadow for villager/rosa especially as they can steal metal
danger wrap is used most but crash bomber for rosalina is an option
tornado hold has some combo/aggressive capabilities over rush/beat. rush seems harder to edgeguard, beat has more distance for going deep. all 3 might have merit
plant barrier is probably the only one to go with. skull barrier, despite reflecting stuff, lasts for such a short time that the offensive capabilities of plant is probably going to be more useful.

 

[Teshie U]

Why would it matter if Villager/Rosa steal metal blade? The same move steals shadow blade anyway.

 

[DunnoBro]

Wayyy harder due to the speed and short range meaning it'll only be used upclose. Rosa will never gpul at midrange like that, she'd just get punished and probably would need a read.

Similarly with pocket.

 

[Azriel Auxifur]

A bit off topic don't want to feel like I'm interrupting but I did manage to get my hori controller from amazon. And started around 1-2 pm yesterday. Ganon has so far collected over 200 custom equipments, 80 customs moves and 200 trophies. I'm estimating that it will take me 3 days to collect all of them though I hate Nintendo's method of distributing customs because I have gotten doubles multiple times.

reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2xhk1v/optimized_custom_turbo_farming_guide/

Edit: I'm still too young to post links but this is an update to the farming guide

 

[GeneralLedge]

IMO Shadow blade should go hand in hand with skull barrier, so you get some protection against long range attacks. Obviously MU specific, but... Well, I don't know how to utilize plant barrier so what do I know.

...Can skull barrier reflect metal blade?

 

[Raijinken]

IMO Shadow blade should go hand in hand with skull barrier, so you get some protection against long range attacks. Obviously MU specific, but... Well, I don't know how to utilize plant barrier so what do I know.

...Can skull barrier reflect metal blade?

Skull Barrier reflects anything reflectable by any other reflector, so yes, it can.

 

[Teshie U]

Wayyy harder due to the speed and short range meaning it'll only be used upclose. Rosa will never gpul at midrange like that, she'd just get punished and probably would need a read.

Similarly with pocket.

You can use Metal Blade up close to much better effect. Shadow Blade's most obvious limitation is NOT a selling point.

Not having Metal Blade or at least Hyper Bomb (which kind of sucks), makes all down B variations much less usable. The only offensive options you have while down B is active are grab and throwing/picking up items.

 

[DunnoBro]

You can use Metal Blade up close to much better effect. Shadow Blade's most obvious limitation is NOT a selling point.

Not having Metal Blade or at least Hyper Bomb (which kind of sucks), makes all down B variations much less usable. The only offensive options you have while down B is active are grab and throwing/picking up items.

It's usage is generally never hindered by gpull or pocket due to only being an up-close option, metal blade however is more versatile (but also less potent). That's all I was stating.

Whether that usage is overall greater is a discussion actual megaman fans should have.

 

[Raijinken]

You can use Metal Blade up close to much better effect. Shadow Blade's most obvious limitation is NOT a selling point.

Not having Metal Blade or at least Hyper Bomb (which kind of sucks), makes all down B variations much less usable. The only offensive options you have while down B is active are grab and throwing/picking up items.

I'd call that a terrible shortcoming of the Leaf Shield and variants sucking, rather than an issue with Shadow Blade.

Also worth repeating that the Shadow Blade cannot be caught, and thus cannot be disabled.

 

[DelxDoom]

Why would it matter if Villager/Rosa steal metal blade? The same move steals shadow blade anyway.

since metal blade is an item, it can't be used while it's out. villager can pocket it and MM can't use it while villager has it pocketed for 30 secs - if villager refreshes it within that time the timer gets restarted etc. etc. Rosalina - also can steal MB and mm can't use it.

i believe shadow blade doesn't follow this, if it gets absorbed/pocketed you can still use it as it's not an item. could be wrong.

 

[Teshie U]

Metal Blade being caught is almost irrelevant and its nearly useless against Megaman.

The original metal blade toss (when you spawn it with B) is already better than shadow blade in versatility, but the added utility of Metal Blade being a strong OoS option and roll punish (megaman can struggle with roll aways).

And no its not really just down B sucking. Its about how the whole character comes together. Down B becomes a very usable option for megaman when he can also use an item as well. This is without even factoring in how laggy shadow blade is.

DelxDoom you are wrong. pocketing metal blade just lets megaman create another one. Rosalina taking control of Metal Blade is as bad as anyone catching metal blade (which is easy for the entire cast at long range where grav pull is usable). You are trading away quick use of your smashes, grabs and tilts for an option that is of NO USE to you. Metal blade loses hard to pellets so having one in your hand just leaves you with no options vs mega.

 

[DelxDoom]

thats only in the case of the opponent having no B moves to fight you with, rosalina can use her B moves to fight quite well

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

(megaman can struggle with Roll aways).

There's a really lousy abusive relationship joke in here somewhere...

 

[Sleek Media]

Mega Man needs a Hyper Bomb set. Preferably 2323.

 

[Teshie U]

thats only in the case of the opponent having no B moves to fight you with, rosalina can use her B moves to fight quite well

Giving up the best parts of her moveset just to take away something my Metal Blade is not the best idea. AFAIK she can't jab, Upsmash, Dash attack or grab me while holding my metal blade so I'm fine with that.