Official Stage Legality Discussion

[infomon]

No matter what the SBR says, tournament runners will always have the final say in their own rules. Why bother with a 100% accurate list if it's only a strong suggestion anyway?

Many TOs don't want to spend the time/energy to scrap a rulelist together, and then face all the whining. So it can be very convenient for TOs to just take the SBR list. So I think it'd be good for stages to get "evened out" to a particular category, but the SBR probably needs more time to see how things go before any consensus is reached.

As for Norfair.... it's really not that bad. The lava is really avoidable, so if it's causing you much grief in a match then you're doing something wrong. You're probably foolish for going in the capsule, it's much easier to just dodge, shield, or ledge-invincibility to avoid that lava. Norfair is great for characters with poor recoveries, especially tethers.

 

[spades]

Norfair hazards are easily escapable/avoidable and don't KO early enough to warrant banning it.
As it's been brought up before, this map is so good for characters like FD (a starter) is good for MK/Snake. More Norfair, Please.. And Brinstar.


Last tourney i hosted I pulled from SBR and edited the hell out of it because of personal preference. I do wish there was a more concrete standing from SBR as a whole though. I mean, i believe there's a permanent place for every stage on the starter/cp/ban list

 

[deepseadiva]

Here are my opinions on how the placements should go, as is the list I use for my tournaments. Changes in italics:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium 1

We need an odd number of starters to use the Stage Strike system, and while the alternative could be to simply combine both the Starter and Starter/Counter categories (9 in total) - I believe a small number of starters would serve tournaments to run faster and more efficiently.

Pokemon Stadium I think deserves to be the one stage that needs to be transitioned. It's fairly neutral, but changes to give a wide variety of characters a variety of different advantages and disadvantages.

Counter
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Green Greens
Onett
Skyworld

The rest of the Starter/Counters drop down to counterpicks.

Green Greens is specifically here for one reason: MetaKnight whining. While it is character specific, I highly believe GG is one of the few counters to MK. As such, a large problem at the moment is a decent amount of complaining about MK being broken - and as any TO knows, complaints are the last thing anyone wants. While it still can be banned by the opponent, I still think it should be made available.

In addition, there are two stages I still do not know where to place. Onett and Skyworld. I've decided to take the more liberal route for Onett and Skyworld for now. I see problems with them, but ban worthy? I don't think so.

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
Mario Circuit
Port Town Aero Dive

I do not understand why Mario Circuit was ever available.

Cars kill at much too low a percent to ever be considered fair, especially when they give such little warning.

 

[Deoxys]

No, cars are fair. You just have to know how to predict them. They have a pattern.

But yeah, Mario Circuit is even dumber than Onnet.

Edit: You think Onnet should be legal!? Craaaazy due to DDD (unless infinites are banned, which I think is dumb). Also, being a great MK counterpick (second only to Yoshi's Island), is no reason to make an unfair stage (due to added randomness) unbanned.

 

[deepseadiva]

No, cars are fair. You just have to know how to predict them. They have a pattern.

There's a specific area, the "side view" part, where the first three cars have no hitboxes and serve as the "warning." I don't believe something with that kind of kill capability should have that little warning. I would NEVER want a final match in anything be played there.

Edit: You think Onnet should be legal!? Craaaazy due to DDD (unless infinites are banned, which I think is dumb).

I'm still iffy on Onett, but Corneria is allowed. And if nothing else the cars will interrupt infinites.

Also, being a great MK counterpick (second only to Yoshi's Island), is no reason to make an unfair stage (due to added randomness) unbanned.

I understand having a stage legal for one specific character is unorthodox, but people are getting panicky. This is a small, small solution.

Though the problem with Green Greens is not the bombs - those are in a specific area and knowing not to do aerials there is as basic as learning the water in Hanenbow isn't real.

The problem is the walls, but to that defense they are destructible.

 

[Deoxys]

There's a specific area, the "side view" part, where the first three cars have no hitboxes and serve as the "warning." I don't believe something with that kind of kill capability should have that little warning. I would NEVER want a final match in anything be played there.

The cars only appear on every other segment. You don't need a warning... so it's a fair stage.

I'm still iffy on Onett, but Corneria is allowed. And if nothing else the cars will interrupt infinites.

Sure, but you can camp the sides of the stage with DDD, and there's really nothing that many characters can do against that, and the cars don't go there (IIRC). Corneria doesn't have walk-off ledges, and it only has one spot for infinites, and if you try to go for it you have to put your back towards a nearby blast zone.

Though the problem with Green Greens is not the bombs - those are in a specific area and knowing not to do aerials there is as basic as learning the water in Hanenbow isn't real.

The problem is the walls, but to that defense they are destructible.

The problem is the apples appear randomly and are randomly life or a throwing item.

IMO, when stage striking is used, and infinites are NOT banned, this is the most fair stage placement:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise

Counter
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld

On the Fire part of PS1, if you start a CG facing left on the right side of the stage, you can usually infinite. Hence my choice of Lylat Cruise over PS1.

 

[deepseadiva]

The cars only appear on every other segment. You don't need a warning... so it's a fair stage.

I don't think that's the pattern. I'm not sure what it is, but it's not every other landing. If it was as predictable as that it would be legal.

Sure, but you can camp the sides of the stage with DDD, and there's really nothing that many characters can do against that, and the cars don't go there (IIRC). Corneria doesn't have walk-off ledges, and it only has one spot for infinites, and if you try to go for it you have to put your back towards a nearby blast zone.

Camping effectiveness is never an argument. And the cars actually do travel the entire length of the stage - they come every 10 seconds, cause 30% damage, and are incapable of KOing.

The problem is the apples appear randomly and are randomly life or a throwing item.

No, stage-spawned items are completly okay. Look at Distant Planet. It's the 4 walls that make it dangerous.

On the Fire part of PS1, if you start a CG facing left on the right side of the stage, you can usually infinite. Hence my choice of Lylat Cruise over PS1.

You can't infinite if the terrain changes back. While I considered Lylat very heavily, I believe the tilting affects character much more then expected. PS1 outweighs it in neutrality.

 

[Sliq]

Aero Port Town should be allowed, and so should Green Greens.

Green Greens more so than the former, but regardless, the fact that there are wall infinites shouldn't matter, considering 5 characters get infinited REGARDLESS of the presence of walls, and if those characters have to adapt ALL THE TIME, then the other characters can also adapt on that 1 stage (or, god forbid, switch characters).

Aero Port town, IIRC, always has a safe place to be to avoid being struck by cars, so simply standing there prevents being hit.

 

[Percon]

Yeah, I like port town. Many of the parts have no cars, and the ones that do you can avoid them by staying on the side of the stage (or going on the top platform when they come in from the side).

A lot of the time tethers can stall in the air for a bit and get saved by the damaging floor or safe ground.

Though, with green greens like all but maybe 11 of the cast get infinited, and the walls don't go away.. I'm not a big fan, though I wouldn't mind if it was allowed I guess 'cuz kirby is safe.

 

[AlexX]

We need an odd number of starters to use the Stage Strike system, and while the alternative could be to simply combine both the Starter and Starter/Counter categories (9 in total) - I believe a small number of starters would serve tournaments to run faster and more efficiently.

How would a small number of starters cause a tournment to run faster and more efficiently? You don't fight on all the starters for each match, just one (and maybe another if someone counterpicks it).

 

[deepseadiva]

How would a small number of starters cause a tournment to run faster and more efficiently? You don't fight on all the starters for each match, just one (and maybe another if someone counterpicks it).

In the stage strike system you whittle down to the first stage by banning starters until you're left with one. It would be faster whittling down from five stages rather than nine.

 

[Deoxys]

No, stage-spawned items are completly okay. Look at Distant Planet. It's the 4 walls that make it dangerous.

Distant planet can't heal people up to like 15% at random intervals....

There is definitely probably a pattern on PTAD, I'll go experiment and tell you what it is...

Onett*

The large amount of walls and consistent hazards placed this in the counterpick list, and the walk-off edges facing a wall meant edge camping would be a serious threat to many members in the SBR, which placed it in the banned list.

Considering edge camping is appropriate to considering a ban.

Regarding, Lylat Cruise vs PS1, I suppose you're right, but I hate the ledges on PS1 so much....

 

[Discolicious]

So wait whats wrong with pokemon stadium 1?

 

[AlexX]

In the stage strike system you whittle down to the first stage by banning starters until you're left with one. It would be faster whittling down from five stages rather than nine.

The time difference is a matter of seconds and I don't see how it affects efficiency (unless some sort of offscreen fight breaks out from it, but that could happen even with a few starters).

 

[The Milk Monster]

The ledges on PS1 have Final D syndrome like a mofo.
And the windmill sucks.

 

[deepseadiva]

So wait whats wrong with pokemon stadium 1?

Nothing, we were just debating which stage was more neutral.

The time difference is a matter of seconds and I don't see how it affects efficiency (unless some sort of offscreen fight breaks out from it, but that could happen even with a few starters).

=D, no efficiency is speed.
But I think it would take a surprising amount of time to finish the stage striking with nine stages. Especially with those unfamiliar with it.

It's not like they're blasting out names like a sword fight.
"Delphino!"
"Final Destination!"
Battlefield!"

It's would be more like:

"Uhh, ... Yoshi's Island"
"..."
"Okay, I strike, ... Battlefield"
"Wait, no it was my turn."
"Hold on, what were the stages again?"

I'm also glad this thread is interesting again.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ha...ha...HAHAHAHAHAHA! Did I just see Corneria legal? AGAIN?!? Wow...I just lost all faith in whoever that was. Infinites for everyone! YAY?

NO. Corneria should not have ever been legal. EVER.

And the apples on Green Greens? Big deal, that's not the reason people want to ban the stage. They want to ban it because all you have to do is pick D3, CG until the wind starts blowing, and then either uthrow them to their death(due to the ridiculously low ceiling), dthrow again and then utilt for the same effect, or just pummel them and continue CG'ing afterwards. I personally am for Green Greens being CP, because I like the stage and blah blah blah. It's not that hard to destroy the walls and fight on the sides of the stage. Good counterpick for that reason. *Insert Sliq's post here*

I also think that Aero should be allowed.

 

[rehab]

With Port Town, in theory there are safe spots from the cars and the lava-like moving track, but unlike legal stages with hazards, their presence is so pervasive that actual fighting is very limited and ******** with them in place, and it's just not a good stage in practice. I think it's similar with Pirate Ship and the cannonballs. I mean you can say "just memorize how many times the cannon fires and the rhythm and be observative and et cetera" but can we really blame somebody for getting hit by a cannonball when the camera's focused close up only on the 2 people, the cannon's out of the picture and the tension is there and all that? In practice it's just ********.

 

[AlexX]

=D, no efficiency is speed.
But I think it would take a surprising amount of time to finish the stage striking with nine stages. Especially with those unfamiliar with it.

It's not like they're blasting out names like a sword fight.
"Delphino!"
"Final Destination!"
Battlefield!"

It's would be more like:

"Uhh, ... Yoshi's Island"
"..."
"Okay, I strike, ... Battlefield"
"Wait, no it was my turn."
"Hold on, what were the stages again?"

The latter isn't going to happen with experienced players (in fact, I can't see that happening with anyone over 12). If anything the first example you gave is more likely to occur, especially since experienced players know what to strike right off the bat.

Besides, the difference isn't so huge. Let's say it takes 5-10 seconds to do the additional stages. Let's then say there's 10 rounds in the tournament. Let's now assume that the tournament lasts about 4 hours on its own. That only results in an additional minute or two onto the final time, which is a negligable amount. Reducing stage variety just to shave off a minute or two isn't worth it.

Ha...ha...HAHAHAHAHAHA! Did I just see Corneria legal? AGAIN?!? Wow...I just lost all faith in whoever that was. Infinites for everyone! YAY?

The SBR's reasoning was that camping under the fin to attempt an infinite on your opponent puts your back to a very close blast zone.

 

[Deoxys]

Seven starter stages isn't unreasonable, but Castle Seige, and to a lesser extent, Delfino, both affect matchups too significantly to be starters, IMO.

 

[deepseadiva]

The latter isn't going to happen with experienced players (in fact, I can't see that happening with anyone over 12). If anything the first example you gave is more likely to occur, especially since experienced players know what to strike right off the bat.

Every tournament-goer isn't Overswarm.
I'm all for variety, and of course I'd love to have nine starter stages, but in practice it would not be effective. Newbs wouldn't know the stages, they would need a list, and the first games of the tournament would crawl by. Even then, pro players do not equal informed players. The entire thing would be agonizing. The fewer the starters, the more efficient a tourney would be.

Function over form.

The SBR's reasoning was that camping under the fin to attempt an infinite on your opponent puts your back to a very close blast zone.

I never really understood that either...
Anyway, we're just playing with sticking the Starter/Counter and Counter/Ban stages into nice, exact placings.

If it was up to me entirely, I'd have Hanenbow right at the top of counter.

 

[Deoxys]

Don't you see the problems with Circle Camping and Hanenbow?

 

[deepseadiva]

I do, I do.
But they're go-through platforms. I don't see circle camping ever really working there.

 

[Deoxys]

I do, I do.
But they're go-through platforms. I don't see circle camping ever really working there.

I'd think Snake could circle camp effectively with C4, a mine, and grenades.

I gave up in finding a pattern; what made me think that I saw a pattern was simply that the majority of the time you can predict if there will be cars based on if you saw them in the background while the stage was moving, but some parts can't be predicted at all it seems. I was chatting with M2K today and he told me Port Town should be banned simply because it forces camping. I think he underrates how fair the stage is, but see how this can be true at certain parts of the stage, and thus agree with you, Meno, that it should be banned.

He also said that Skyworld "s*cks d*ck." Didn't have time to elaborate, though. While I'm not a big fan of Skyworld, I can't see it being that bad, except for having a moving platform all the way around the bottom. He also says that Corneria is bad due to lasers, encouraging camping, and having an infinite all on one stage, although again, I disagree, simply because the lasers and infinite are avoidable, and I don't see the camping as being that bad.

Now my favorite (when stage striking is used, which is how it should be) is:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Skyworld

I think the most important reason GG should be banned is that any character can throw another into a bomb for a low % kill, and that the opportunity to do such is given randomly.

 

[AlexX]

Every tournament-goer isn't Overswarm.

They don't have to be.

I'm all for variety, and of course I'd love to have nine starter stages, but in practice it would not be effective. Newbs wouldn't know the stages, they would need a list, and the first games of the tournament would crawl by.

You're saying we should kill variety for the sake of scrubs that probably don't even know what counterpicking is? No, we shouldn't have to punish ourselves for the sake of players that won't be lasting the first couple rounds. After that point your hypothetical situation can't happen since all the remaining players are proven to be knowledgable what is some of the bare basics for the game.

In the event a tournament consists entirely of such crappy players, then it's pretty much a casual tournament where people are playing for fun and not money (thus, they could probably get away with everything being legal and just hitting Random each time). As such, the stage strike rule doesn't even have to apply in a setting like that.

Even then, pro players do not equal informed players.

Name a single pro player who doesn't understand what stages are good or bad for their character. There isn't one, because knowing the good and bad stages for your character is BASIC INFORMATION to know when playing them.

Heck, you don't even have to be a pro to know about good and bad stages for your character. Even before I joined the competative Melee scene, I had a pretty good idea for what stages were better for Link, and which ones I was best off avoiding.

The entire thing would be agonizing. The fewer the starters, the more efficient a tourney would be.

Function over form.

If a player doesn't know what stages are good or bad for their character, they aren't going to be lasting very long against any half-decent player. We shouldn't be forced to limit ourselves for the sake of scrubs and small children.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

The SBR's reasoning was that camping under the fin to attempt an infinite on your opponent puts your back to a very close blast zone.

Really? Wow...that's funny. Isn't that also a disadvantage for the person who could possibly get infinited(90% chance you will get infinited too)? Yup. Hmmm...thanks Alex, I've been wondering about their reasoning for certain stages. I still think that their reasoning for stages like this is pretty unthoughtful though.

Also, the post underneath me by AlexX is very good and I agree with it. Scrubs should learn to get good at the game, we should not have to support their :newbie:ness at all. They should be forced to do what all people want to do: IMPROVE.

And this about pros not equaling knowledgeable is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Fox can circle camp effectively on Hanenbow!

 

[The Milk Monster]

He also said that Skyworld "s*cks d*ck." Didn't have time to elaborate, though. While I'm not a big fan of Skyworld, I can't see it being that bad, except for having a moving platform all the way around the bottom.

Skyworld also being terrible for tethers, except Zero Suit really, but it could still be pretty problematic.

 

[Deoxys]

Skyworld also being terrible for tethers, except Zero Suit really, but it could still be pretty problematic.

It's fine for a counterpick to be terrible for certain characters, as long as it doesn't add significantly more chance to the game.

 

[The Milk Monster]

True, but that much of a disadvantage is a little rough.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Skyworld has a miniature version of fight club, the area found below Hyrule Temple. Sure, it's destructible, but really, in real games who spends the time EVERY SINGLE TIME to go break the blocks to make sure the cave of life does not come? NOBODY. Realistically, this stage is banned. In theory people might argue that you can simply destroy the cave of life, but in reality that never happens. It reappears too quickly and it's just too time-taking to break every time it appears. That's why it's banned, or supposedly so: because it's a smaller fight club.

 

[Sinz]

Also the fact that it ***** recoveries helps it get banned.

 

[Praxis]

I think the most important reason GG should be banned is that any character can throw another into a bomb for a low % kill, and that the opportunity to do such is given randomly.

1) Define low %. With proper DI, you can survive bomb explosions at 100% just fine.

2) Explain in more detail. If thrown into a bomb block in the stack at point blank, you actually take no damage from the explosion, and from a distance, the bombs do not explode unless you attack them when you hit.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Yeah with the exception of infinites(Chain grabs and such) against the blocks(Which is avoidable and technically not infinite since the blocks will break and you can break them to avoid an infinite against it), Green Green's is pretty alright, not my favourite stage, since it's a little bit tiny on the middle section, I still play it and enjoy myself a lot.

For a couple of other debated stages:

Skyworld, I will fight to ban it.

Norfair, though I don't like it, It should be allowed, with the exception of the capsule(Which everyone is at an even disadvantage), not much else to break it.

Distant Planet is alright, though the ledge sucks, and the Bulborb is sorta' lame, but still avoidable, DI will help you avoid it from a throw.

And I still think Port Town should stay banned, if it isn't already.

Edit://
Praxis, I like your GIF.

 

[Deoxys]

Skyworld has a miniature version of fight club, the area found below Hyrule Temple. Sure, it's destructible, but really, in real games who spends the time EVERY SINGLE TIME to go break the blocks to make sure the cave of life does not come? NOBODY. Realistically, this stage is banned. In theory people might argue that you can simply destroy the cave of life, but in reality that never happens. It reappears too quickly and it's just too time-taking to break every time it appears. That's why it's banned, or supposedly so: because it's a smaller fight club.

Most people call this the "cave of immortality." In "real games," if you don't spend the time to break the "blocks," and you choose to go and fight your opponent there, you're an idiot and deserved to be punished. "In reality that never happens?" In reality, you must not be playing very good matches if that "never happens." It's extremely easy to simply fight somewhere else, unless you're behind in %, in which case you have to break the top of the CoI. Boo hoo, you have to go run away from your opponent and refresh your Stale Move Negation, how horribly unfair...

1) Define low %. With proper DI, you can survive bomb explosions at 100% just fine.

2) Explain in more detail. If thrown into a bomb block in the stack at point blank, you actually take no damage from the explosion, and from a distance, the bombs do not explode unless you attack them when you hit.

Sorry, I was extremely vague/misleading. What I meant is, if you grab them, and a bomb starts to fall in line with the resulting trajectory of one of your throws, they usually aren't able to DI strongly enough to avoid the falling bomb, which will explode if it falls on them as they fly away at it.

Can Peach survive at 100% with DI after getting hit from a bomb?

 

[Discolicious]

Id like to see (and learn) the DI that helps peach survive a bomb at 100% lol...

 

[infomon]

Could she tech off the wall or floor?

Edit: Discolicious, are you in Ottawa Canada, or is there an Ottawa, California I don't know about and if you're in Ottawa, Canada... why aren't you coming to our smashfests?? (or are you and I don't know about it? lol)

/off-topic

 

[deepseadiva]

If a player doesn't know what stages are good or bad for their character, they aren't going to be lasting very long against any half-decent player. We shouldn't be forced to limit ourselves for the sake of scrubs and small children.

You have to accept the fact "scrubs" and small children attend tournaments. To have these tournaments run better, we should limit the number of starters, and make it more user-friendly in favor of efficiency. Just because we want "pretty colors" we shouldn't make things more cumbersome.

My comment on "pro players not equaling informed players" was miss-worded. I meant great players do not equal informed players (not necessarily professional).

While knowledge does help a player reach greater heights, a good player does not need to know any of the stages. It's a skill game, not Trivial Pursuit.

Fox can circle camp effectively on Hanenbow!

With a horizontal projectile in a vertically aligned stage?

 

[Deoxys]

Could she tech off the wall or floor?

No, not in the situation I mentioned. It might work now and then, but almost never.

Really? Wow...that's funny. Isn't that also a disadvantage for the person who could possibly get infinited(90% chance you will get infinited too)? Yup.

Nope. If you're infinited you will die from a hit after pretty much anywhere... I mean... it's an infinite...

their reasoning for stages like this is pretty unthoughtful though.

On the contrary, I think most of the SBR thought a lot about most of the stages. Some, like Pictochat, and to a lesser extent, Pirate Ship, seem absurdly broken unless you really think about it.

\And this about pros not equaling knowledgeable is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

If you're an amazing smasher from experience from Melee, you don't have to be knowledgable about Brawl to make money at tourneys.

Fox can circle camp effectively on Hanenbow!

Not really. The real culprits are characters like Snake, Pit, and Toon Link.

 

[Deoxys]

Spoiler

****, I double posted by accident.

 

[Solharath]

I don't want to sift through 211 pages of mainly spam and off-topic discussion(I'm guessing), so I'll throw out my opinions here. The one stage I can't believe is banned is Shadow Moses Island. Now, I understand the fear of the horrid DeDeDe chaingrab - hell, that's the reason most of the walled stages are banned. But instead of a huge ban of stages, why not ban the technique?

Tournaments are games of skill, not seeing who can break the game the best, as some of the strategies are developing as. DeDeDe Chain grab, Bowser grab release, laser-locking... why, instead of banning the techniques, are we banning legitimate stages?

This brings me back to Shadow Moses. Most arguments I hear are either about the short distance on the sides, or the walls being used to rack up too much damage. Seriously, this, to me, seems like the worst excuse. It's a simple idea to merely defend the walls at high percentages, and break them down to KO your opponent when they are at high percentages. This makes for a fantastic game of fluctuating offense and defense not seen in many stages.

The only, ONLY, thing this stage does not have going for it is the exceptionally rare occurrence of being blasted to the side, only to be saved by the rising wall. And trust me, this is much less demoralizing then being lipped on Final Destination.