Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Fenrir VII]

I think we're at the point in the discussion where we realize that people are always going to complain... and we ignore the obviously wrong people, instead of going through pages of people repeatedly proving him wrong without him admitting it... seriously, after a couple times, just give up on him...


The only real problem I've seen with DP is the little ledge on the slanted section underneath the stage. It sticks so far under the stage that it's an incredibly hard to attack spot... and it great benefits players who just stay there.. The rain will push them off sure...but then they just go back.. It makes the stage very frustrating. It has a walk off that DDD can cg off of...but since it's not connected to the stage, it's not a huge issue.



I've never been sure why stages with walk offs and permanent walls are considered to be CP with all the wall infinites and DDD's cg to death That's my main complaint with the list... Every tournament is kinda making their own list anyway, though, so I can't really sit and complain here...

 

[Darkest-Link]

You forgot option C: head back towards the main stage (seeing as how the bulborb isn't so far from the rest of the stage that attempting to get back to it is no longer an option).

are you kidding me? that takes up 1 third or fourth of the entire stage, good luck. you may be using somone like Sonic or MK who can acomplish this however not all characters have that good of a recovery

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

are you kidding me? that takes up 1 third or fourth of the entire stage, good luck. you may be using somone like Sonic or MK who can acomplish this however not all characters have that good of a recovery

Which makes this stage a prime counter-pick against them--could I be right?

 

[AlexX]

are you kidding me? that takes up 1 third or fourth of the entire stage, good luck. you may be using somone like Sonic or MK who can acomplish this however not all characters have that good of a recovery

Unless said character is Link or someone like that, they can get back just fine. Heck, I play Ike and Oli and I can get back just fine, and they aren't exactly known for good recovery...

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Unless said character is Link or someone like that, they can get back just fine. Heck, I play Ike and Oli and I can get back just fine, and they aren't exactly known for good recovery...

When you learn to DI properly, even Link can usually get back. The biggest problem would be that the spin attack would be your only option and it's easy to edgehog.

The bulborb is GOOD for characters with bad recovery, anyway. It gives you a chance to live if you were going to fall anyway. It's not like the opponent is going to hop over onto the bulborb to finish the job.

 

[Sky`]

Green Greens Counter pick Ftw? >_>

It's the only level Peach really excels. >_<

 

[Oracle]

Dedede CG FTL

 

[Darkest-Link]

Which makes this stage a prime counter-pick against them--could I be right?

yes but theres the fact that theres luck involved, the toad eats people at the most random times

Heres a list of characters that CAN make it with their recovery

Peach

DK

Diddy

wario (somtimes)

Zelda

Ice climbers

pit

rob

ness/lucas

Sonic

Snake.

Otherwise you can jump well or your just lucky.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Green Greens should be legal. The CG's aren't infinites on this stage, because one you can destroy the walls before he can get to you, and two the wind pushes him after a while into the wall, destroying the CG anyways. If you get CG'ed here...it's your own fault for not destroying the temporary walls on which he will CG you.

And DP? Doesn't really have any problems with it. Sorry if you think so. If you fly into the monster's mouth...it's your fault. Not that hard to avoid.

And whoever said that the SBR has more experience than everyone else is obviously mistaken. Half of them left when Brawl came out, and was obviously filled with noobs. Sure they've got a lot more experience than a lot of people, but I really think they did a much better job with Melee than they've done with Brawl. No offense. That could be because the game just barely came out, but...guess we'll see.

 

[Sinz]

Whoa, Erich still posts in here?

Well, there are 2 infinites that D3 can do easily, one on each side, and then he can just Bthrow kill you at like 80-100 5, I believe. Then the middle ones are temporary but still can **** the crap out of you.

 

[unwelc0med]

OH SNAP pirate ship is a counter

wooot

 

[x After Dawn x]

Green Greens should be legal. The CG's aren't infinites on this stage, because one you can destroy the walls before he can get to you, and two the wind pushes him after a while into the wall, destroying the CG anyways. If you get CG'ed here...it's your own fault for not destroying the temporary walls on which he will CG you.

And DP? Doesn't really have any problems with it. Sorry if you think so. If you fly into the monster's mouth...it's your fault. Not that hard to avoid.

And whoever said that the SBR has more experience than everyone else is obviously mistaken. Half of them left when Brawl came out, and was obviously filled with noobs. Sure they've got a lot more experience than a lot of people, but I really think they did a much better job with Melee than they've done with Brawl. No offense. That could be because the game just barely came out, but...guess we'll see.

Does this mark the return of Erich to this thread? If so, I'll come back too.

 

[AlexX]

yes but theres the fact that theres luck involved, the toad eats people at the most random times

Last I checked the bulborb doesn't jump onto the stage and randomly eat someone. You have to actually step on top of it or in its mouth to get eaten, and it's not hard to simply keep the fight on the main platform since odds are if you head out to the bulborb for whatever reason your opponent isn't going to feel like following you.

Heres a list of characters that CAN make it with their recovery
[...]
Otherwise you can jump well or your just lucky.

I can make it back to the stage with Ike and Olimar without ever touching the bulborb, and still have yet to ever be eaten by it.

What exactly did you do to test that out, anyways? I fail to see how those are the only characters who can make it back assuming the player knows how to properly DI and make use of their jumps and recovery move(s). The fact Jigglypuff, MK, and Kirby aren't on that list makes me question it even more.

Does this mark the return of Erich to this thread? If so, I'll come back too.

You left?

 

[The Milk Monster]

Regarding Distant Planet, the Bulborb killing you is pretty much your fault.
If you are getting knocked to the Bulborb and are sure you are gonna' land on him and be eaten, then iunno what to tell you, but you'll mainly not have to worry about it as much as the fight going on.

 

[x After Dawn x]

You left?

Pretty much.

 

[Mic_128]

And whoever said that the SBR has more experience than everyone else is obviously mistaken. Half of them left when Brawl came out, and was obviously filled with noobs.

And you know this because you're in the SBR? No you're not. Before Brawl came out M3d pruned a lot of inactive members, when Brawl came out, a few left, but that was less than half a dozen. There are still a lot of active Melee vets who are now hosting Brawl events, everyone in there has experience with hosting Smash Tournaments, Involved at high level Smash, or both. they arne't just a bunch of random noobs who think 'omg we r teh cool'

I really think they did a much better job with Melee than they've done with Brawl. No offense. That could be because the game just barely came out

No duh. You can't say they've done a crap job on a game that hasn't been out for a year yet, as opposed to a game that's been around for seven years.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Legitimately, I think the SBR is full of longwinded people who love to spout their ideas, even though they have trouble backing them up with knowledge.

They are good debaters, but flawed in logic much of the time. That's just my personal experience with several of them around the boards... I'm certainly not saying everybody in the SBR is like that... but I don't have very good experiences with them.


But anyways, let's move on and forget this person and bulborb... I mean seriously... this is accomplishing nothing.
The only things wrong with the stage (DP) are the little super campy ledge under the stage and the walk off on the left side.. the "toad", as he puts it is of like...no consequence to the stage to anybody with a small amount of intelligence.

I personally like the stage quite a lot, but due to that ledge and the walk off, I'm not sure how legal it really is. I've pushed for it to be CP in FL, but there are valid points against it and as such, it isn't hard to see why it would be banned.

 

[MysticKenji]

I had a truckload of matches on DP last weekend, conveniently enough, and I didn't really have any problems with that walkoff...it's pretty easy to contain the fight on the leaves and the area surrounding them imo...i'll try to get more playtime here though (esp vs DDD)

 

[Oracle]

OH GOD MIC SAID MELEE
THE THREADS GONNA GET CLOSED!!!
EVERYONE RUN!!!

But regarding DP
There is no hitstun in this game. Therefore, if you are hit so that you should fly into the bulborb, use a jump or b move to cancel the momentum, or tech off of him and run.

 

[infomon]

There is no hitstun in this game. Therefore, if you are hit so that you should fly into the bulborb, use a jump or b move to cancel the momentum, or tech off of him and run.

I know you're being facetious, but there is hitstun in Brawl; rather considerable amounts at high %'s. Furthermore, using a B move out of hitstun will not cancel your knockback momentum; indeed it will actually make it worse.

What I just said is technically wrong so I'll elaborate. Hitstun has two phases, distinguished only by time (there's no visual cue). In the first you can't do anything, but in the second you can perform an airdodge, aerial attack, or item-throw. Doing so might actually allow you to get out of hitstun early; indeed, early enough that you're able to perform any move while travelling away from the stage in your knockback momentum. However during this time if you use a momentum-altering Special move, you'll keep moving away along your knockback momentum, and also you'll get an unusual vertical boost away from the stage. Your best bet at higher %'s is to abort hitstun using a fast aerial attack, then immediately jump towards the stage. See the [Using Aerials for Recovery] thread for details, especially pages 14 and 15 of the discussion.

..... yeah, that was totally a tangent

 

[Xona]

No f'in duh. The difference between Eldin and Fd is that on Fd you can't be chaingrabbed to your death on the edge of the stage.

There are 5 characters who can't escape the Dedede Chain Grab, they are:
Mario
Luigi
Samus
DK
Bowser

Samus can avoid it altogether by projectile spamming, Mario and Luigi can theoretically projectile spam (although Dedede will probably beat them at that), but DK and Bowser can't avoid it (Especially Bowser). Bowser has no projectile, Dedede has a spammable one. Bowser is slow, and is therefore reliant on platforms. Dedede will just spam projectiles forcing Bowser to take a grab-risking approach, platforms are needed in terms of fairness. The Dedede standing Chain-Grab-Infinite is just as inescapable as the wall-infinite. This proves fd broken, the fact that Bowser is 1 of the 5. You might as well ban the Dedede infinite if it's enough for any stage bans, or add 1 more. Stage banning is worse than tactic banning, if there's 1 broken tactic, just ban it instead of banning the stage.

Also there are 12 characters that walk-offs and walls still aren't enough for Dede to 0-death with his chain-grab:
Fox
Jiggly Puff
Pikachu
Olimar
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik
Kirby
Squirtle
Meta Knight
Falco
ZSS

(source of characters who can and can't escape it: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152392)

 

[Mic_128]

Just FYI, there are other characters with infinite grabs. Yoshi can infinite grab-release MK from one side to the other, for example.

 

[cheap_josh]

Haven't followed this thread, what's the standing on Aero Drive?
I hope it doesn't get banned, hopefully it can stay counterpick. Its got hazards, but I still think it's fair (and like Delfino Plaza).

 

[Chaos F-15]

Haven't followed this thread, what's the standing on Aero Drive?
I hope it doesn't get banned, hopefully it can stay counterpick. Its got hazards, but I still think it's fair (and like Delfino Plaza).

You sit right over there in that corner.
Aero Dive should be always banned.
Why?
2 reasons
1: no ledge which gives tether users weak in this stage.
2: it's hazards kill so easily and u have little time to react. It's so annoying. I tried, I honestly tried to love that level but i hate it, i hate it. i hate it, I HATE IT.

 

[Nightshine]

How many of you guys agree on Spear Pillar staying as it is?

Personally I believe that if you play on those really hazardous stages a lot then getting by those hazards becomes like second nature. And with everybody complaining about MK wouldn't picking a hazardous stage help you out if you know the stage well?

True having the stage become upside down, or switching controls on you is annoying especially if you're in the air. But what if you became more used to that? Wouldn't you then be able to play on that stage better?

A true, good, respectful player to me should play on every stage not just stages people complain about and ban. The only way to get used to it would be to play on it.

Now yeah people with tether recoveries don't play as well on the F zero stage for brawl. Then the only way to get better for that stage would be to practice on it...a lot.

 

[The Milk Monster]

But still, no matter how much practice, no edges can be a make or break situation for a tether in a tourney. Skyworld is in the same boat, Tether characters are at such a disadvantage(Besides Zero Suit, though she really doesn't have an advantage, just not as much of a disadvantage.)

 

[cheap_josh]

You sit right over there in that corner.
Aero Dive should be always banned.
Why?
2 reasons
1: no ledge which gives tether users weak in this stage.
2: it's hazards kill so easily and u have little time to react. It's so annoying. I tried, I honestly tried to love that level but i hate it, i hate it. i hate it, I HATE IT.

Aw, I think it's pretty cool. The hazards aren't that bad. They can kill, yes, but they aren't that bad. They are avoidable.

And your point number one is why it should be only counterpick.

 

[infomon]

How many of you guys agree on Spear Pillar staying as it is?

The problem with Spear Pillar isn't just the hazards, it's that it massively encourages circle camping. You'll just chase each other 'round and 'round, occasionally firing lazors....

 

[Mic_128]

Aw, I think it's pretty cool. The hazards aren't that bad. They can kill, yes, but they aren't that bad. They are avoidable.

They kill at obscenely low percentages.

 

[Chaos F-15]

They kill at obscenely low percentages.

Thank you!
*Pats on the back*

 

[The Milk Monster]

They kill at obscenely low percentages.

Agreed.
Super agreed.

 

[Darkest-Link]

Regarding Distant Planet, the Bulborb killing you is pretty much your fault.
If you are getting knocked to the Bulborb and are sure you are gonna' land on him and be eaten, then iunno what to tell you, but you'll mainly not have to worry about it as much as the fight going on.

It is true that if i get knocked on it, its my fault however this is the case

I knock my friend on, he lands on it and its all ok and he comes back, we continue for awhile then I get hit onto it and *gulp* im dead. If it ate them all the time it wouldnt be so bad, but it does it at random times therfore bringing luck into the game

 

[The Milk Monster]

Yeah, I did notice he won't eat you 100% of the time.
It's kind of like Tripping, random and inconvenient.

 

[AlexX]

Except unlike tripping, you can avoid the situation entirely by simply not going onto it.

I'd compare it more to G&W's side-B in that if you don't like the odds of it backfiring, simply don't use it. Willing to take the risk? By all means give it a try, but don't complain if your number gets drawn when you do it.

 

[cheap_josh]

They kill at obscenely low percentages.

Yes they can, not going to lie. That side wall for instance can bounce you off and kill you in the other direction. The car attacks are strong too, but you can live through those under most circumstances (I'm not sure if each car has a different hitting force?).

I don't think that's enough to ban the stage though. It's still a solid stage that provides enough room for fighting without having to interact with the hazards.The side wall only appears sometimes, and if you stay on the upper two platforms while the cars race by you'll be fine. It's not like you have to use that bottom one (the fins of some of the cars stab through it).

The hazards are there, but I don't think they're enough to completely ban the stage.
Like mentioned earlier, there are no ledges, so it should be a counter.

 

[Praxis]

Can someone explain to me why Green Greens, the only stage in this game to actually be a viable MK counterpick, is banned by some TO's? Luckily it's legal in WA, but I've seen many places it is banned.

The reasoning completely escapes me. 20% bombs that are not random and only fall in one section of the stage and ONLY when blocks are missing thus being very predictable, and have hitboxes that don't linger (you can spotdodge the explosions or shield them) and don't kill below 100% with proper DI is NOT that bad.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Can someone explain to me why Green Greens, the only stage in this game to actually be a viable MK counterpick, is banned by some TO's? Luckily it's legal in WA, but I've seen many places it is banned.

The reasoning completely escapes me. 20% bombs that are not random and only fall in one section of the stage and ONLY when blocks are missing thus being very predictable, and have hitboxes that don't linger (you can spotdodge the explosions or shield them) and don't kill below 100% with proper DI is NOT that bad.

the temporary wall infinites for one,although ive yet to see such abuse on a high level>.>

 

[Praxis]

the temporary wall infinites for one,although ive yet to see such abuse on a high level>.>

1. I don't know if wall infinites alone qualify for banning? They usually require setup.

2. MOST wall infinites don't actually work on Greens because they destroy the wall. Marth and MK's dtilts for example will destroy the wall. I believe ROB and G&W's will work if they space it PERFECTLY so as not to break the wall, but the local ROB and G&W have never managed to get me set up just right for it so as to infinite me and if they did it would be my own fault. The only one that is easy to do is DDD's.

3. The walls can be destroyed if you fear a chaingrab, then you camp by the wall you nuked and keep destroy it as it comes down. Plus you can play on top of the platforms if the walls are not destroyed. There are options and I HAVE beaten DDD's here before.

 

[Moosetracks]

It's too bad Bridge of Eldin is a run-off stage so it has to be banned.... -.-; That is like the most awesome stage otherwise IMO.

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Can someone explain to me why Green Greens, the only stage in this game to actually be a viable MK counterpick, is banned by some TO's? Luckily it's legal in WA, but I've seen many places it is banned.

The reasoning completely escapes me. 20% bombs that are not random and only fall in one section of the stage and ONLY when blocks are missing thus being very predictable, and have hitboxes that don't linger (you can spotdodge the explosions or shield them) and don't kill below 100% with proper DI is NOT that bad.

My opinion:

The bombs may not seem that bad, but during a heated match they really are unpredictable, as you probably won't be watching the bombs the entire time. Plus you dn't know when they will drop from the sky, and you may just be getting launched through that area by an attack when they do.

The bombs distract from main gamplay, forcing you to avoid or target one part of the stage specifically; blocks are destroyed easily, therefore bombs appear rather rapidly.

And technically it's two sections of the stage, oon either side, turning to areas of the not-so-huge stage into blast zones.

This is my opinion however, and I think Green Greens COULD pass as a counter-pick. I'm jsut stating why I think the bombs are bad news.