Official Metaknight Discussion

[**Havok**]

You heard it here first folks:

Metaknight is only good because of Mew2King.

That's actually true. Some of you may laugh but the only reason we have MK's in SoCal is because Jason taught DSF (Or more like DSF copied Jason), brought that newly semi developed character at the time over to southern california. Tyrant took DSF's ideas. I took TKD's who's was influenced by DSF.

Do you see a trend?

Not to be rude or anything, but as far as I'm concerned there are only 4 Metaknights in the west coast that KNOW what they're doing with the character and understand his limitations and capacities. DSF, Tyrant, TKD and myself (although TKD doesn't use him anymore). And amongst us we keep finding little details people miss and so forth. Details that the majority of people don't even understand how to find anyways.

Even then, Jason knows things about MK and brawl in general he can't even explain properly because it's difficult.

For the first year (when brawl came out) or so Smashboards was complete trash for finding anything actually useful to someone who wanted to get information that may or may not give them the edge...and it's still not great. Useful, but again, not amazing. The only way to actually get information is word of mouth and being present at events.

MK is not broken. He is however a very strong character, no doubt about that.

To those who think Tornado is broken. It's not... VS D3 it can be. Otherwise it's not hard to avoid. Characters CAN footstool it, airdodge it or simply run away, shield the remaining part and punish. It's not hard people.

There is ONE thing that I think can be deemed as the Best Move in the game. Shuttle Loop. That move is crazy.

The character can BE beaten, it just depends on WHO wants to put forth the effort.

I wrote this at the last discussion of the MK ban:

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=29140

I don't know what to think about the MK ban right now, I'm in the middle. I just know he's not broken.

But I did put a lot of time trying to learn the actual character, learning MK dittos (which are hard because they progress so fast and you always need something new to win).

Jason does help me at times but it's up to me to ask the right questions to get myself further ahead, otherwise you just get an empty answer.

 

[Tien2500]

Sure thing!

I'm not an expert on Akuma so I'll defer to you. Although I still feel the basic spirit of my post holds, that a character being unbeatable is not the only possible reason for a ban.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Akuma is broken. Air fireballs **** everything.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's actually true. Some of you may laugh but the only reason we have MK's in SoCal is because Jason taught DSF (Or more like DSF copied Jason), brought that newly semi developed character at the time over to southern california. Tyrant took DSF's ideas. I took TKD's who's was influenced by DSF.

Do you see a trend?

Not to be rude or anything, but as far as I'm concerned there are only 4 Metaknights in the west coast that KNOW what they're doing with the character and understand his limitations and capacities. DSF, Tyrant, TKD and myself (although TKD doesn't use him anymore). And amongst us we keep finding little details people miss and so forth. Details that the majority of people don't even understand how to find anyways.

Even then, Jason knows things about MK and brawl in general he can't even explain properly because it's difficult.

For the first year (when brawl came out) or so Smashboards was complete trash for finding anything actually useful to someone who wanted to get information that may or may not give them the edge...and it's still not great. Useful, but again, not amazing. The only way to actually get information is word of mouth and being present at events.

MK is not broken. He is however a very strong character, no doubt about that.

To those who think Tornado is broken. It's not... VS D3 it can be. Otherwise it's not hard to avoid. Characters CAN footstool it, airdodge it or simply run away, shield the remaining part and punish. It's not hard people.

There is ONE thing that I think can be deemed as the Best Move in the game. Shuttle Loop. That move is crazy.

The character can BE beaten, it just depends on WHO wants to put forth the effort.

I wrote this at the last discussion of the MK ban:

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=29140

I don't know what to think about the MK ban right now, I'm in the middle. I just know he's not broken.

But I did put a lot of time trying to learn the actual character, learning MK dittos (which are hard because they progress so fast and you always need something new to win).

Jason does help me at times but it's up to me to ask the right questions to get myself further ahead, otherwise you just get an empty answer.

What I got from this was:

M2K showing how to use Meta to his full power since he was the only one thats knows all of Metas options better than anoyine else and no meta is as smart as he way. That does not change the fact that Meta is too much.

Meta Knight is in the game, Not M2K.

 

[Snakeee]

M2k -- which matchups are even? I've heard varying opinions on this:

Falco -- even, kinda, but artifically inflated due to planking/circling rules
Snake -- loses at least slightly
Diddy -- to be seen, but maybe even
C. Falcon -- yeah, this is a new fad.
Jigglypuff -- yeah, i've heard this and i lol at it.
ZSS -- Nick Riddle, Seibrik, and the artist formally known as SNAKEEE all say this is around even.
Ness -- perhaps not even, but not too bad.

Personally I don't really think any of these are even, and there may be more... just curious what you think about it.

Actually, I agree I don't think anyone beats Mk now either.

 

[Tien2500]

Actually, I agree I don't think anyone beats Mk now either.

I remember you saying it was even a while back. Then it became 45:55 and then 40:60 IIRC.

 

[Rockan]

when mk is banned thats when i know brawl is dead i just really hope he isn't banned arguing here is pointless : -P I just really hope the sbr can come up with the right decision

 

[Jem.]

There was never an argument saying that he was unbeatable. The post right above yours just SAID that.

And just for clarification, Sonic was put at 5th from the bottom on the first tier list.



That's just a baseless assumption.
I thought the slippery slope argument was invalid in this case, and has been invalid for several months now?

Why is that an assumption? What else can Metaknight do that he hasn't already done? We've seen the aggressive metaknight, we've seen the defensive metaknight, we've seen him camp with fair/tilts/nados. What ELSE can Metaknight do? Now for Metaknight, it's just a game of reading your opponent. Every other character is still advancing, obvious with the rise of Larry, ADHD, and other players.

 

[OverLade]

ZSS vs. MK is not even, it's just an awkward matchup to play against. 55-45 through 60-40 if the MK knows how to gimp ZSS.

Imo Diddy probably goes close to even, but while Snake/Falco do extremely well they get gayed to a degree which can mean certain strategies that aren't pure skill give them trouble. They can still fight back adequately, but imo Diddy avoids taking damage the best and has the ability to most fluidly fight MK on the go.

 

[brinboy789]

ahahah first time posting on swf for like 2 years, and this debate is STILL going on? seriously guys, nothings gonna ever happen...

 

[Eddie G]

ZSS vs. MK is not even, it's just an awkward matchup to play against. 55-45 through 60-40 if the MK knows how to gimp ZSS.

Imo Diddy probably goes close to even, but while Snake/Falco do extremely well they get gayed to a degree which can mean certain strategies that aren't pure skill give them trouble. They can still fight back adequately, but imo Diddy avoids taking damage the best and has the ability to most fluidly fight MK on the go.

^ One of the more sensible posts I've read.

@ Brinboy- Yes. Deal with it or get lost.

 

[Gnes]

ZSS vs. MK is not even, it's just an awkward matchup to play against. 55-45 through 60-40 if the MK knows how to gimp ZSS.

Imo Diddy probably goes close to even, but while Snake/Falco do extremely well they get gayed to a degree which can mean certain strategies that aren't pure skill give them trouble. They can still fight back adequately, but imo Diddy avoids taking damage the best and has the ability to most fluidly fight MK on the go.

The same strategies that gay falco/snake can be utilized against diddy.

nuff said

 

[**Havok**]

What I got from this was:

M2K showing how to use Meta to his full power since he was the only one thats knows all of Metas options better than anoyine else and no meta is as smart as he way. That does not change the fact that Meta is too much.

Meta Knight is in the game, Not M2K.

Then read past it. Only certain people understand the different layers of the game, regardless of how simple it look like.

We've all seen the mediocre metaknights, which comes down to some people just dont have it in them.

People dont try hard enough.

Besides, why are people so concerned about MK if %70 of everyone on the boards hasn't even PLAYED an actual MK like Judge/M2K/Tyrant/DSF?

 

[Zankoku]

ahahah first time posting on swf for like 2 years, and this debate is STILL going on? seriously guys, nothings gonna ever happen...

You haven't even been registered on Smashboards for two years.

 

[Eddie G]

People dont try hard enough.

Buuuuuuuuuullllllllllll****

People like me who DO try hard and work on demolishing previous obstacles hate reading dismissive crap like this.

 

[OverLade]

The same strategies that gay falco/snake can be utilized against diddy.

nuff said

Agreed but the degree to which he can get away is probably better than Snake/Falco (as long as he's holding a banana). And even if juggling diddy is just as doable, so his ground game is still safer vs. MK than either of them.

Imo not getting gimped/taking loads of damage from almost gimps as diddy is easier than it is as snake. Not as much for Falco but Falco's game vs. MK has more wholes when he's being juggled.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Then read past it. Only certain people understand the different layers of the game, regardless of how simple it look like.

We've all seen the mediocre metaknights, which comes down to some people just dont have it in them.

People dont try hard enough.

Besides, why are people so concerned about MK if %70 of everyone on the boards hasn't even PLAYED an actual MK like Judge/M2K/Tyrant/DSF?

People don't try hard enough? Are you serious with that statement dude?

And this is not about Players dude. Players are not in the game. Meta Knight is. Wether 70 % have played these people or not. The players don't just auto give these powers to characters. Meta could have done all this crap way before M2K or anyone else knew about it. M2K just found all this out spending more hours then anyone for a video game to find.

All I see is excuses from people who play meta To save thier character. When are people gonna understand that players are not in the game? You are giving all the tools you have with a character (character). Now it is up to you (the player) to use them based on how smart you are.

 

[cutter]

Havok and Jem, I completely understand where you guys are coming from when it comes to "get better". It is easily the most intuitive and obvious solution.

The problem is, the vast majority has TRIED to get better for well over a year now. Just because mid-level players can't produce results like top level players can doesn't mean they are legitimately practicing and attempting as best as they can at getting better at the game. Only a very small handful of players can actually make the jump to becoming a top player simply by getting better.

 

[Player-3]

Get better then

 

[Nanaki]

You haven't even been registered on Smashboards for two years.

L-O-L

I <3 Ankoku so hard sometimes.

Whoever said that 'trying to use data completely predicated on top 8 finishes to show that a character is only accruing points due to popularity is wrong' was on to something.

If you can show that a proportionally huge number of entrants were MK, and that those in top 8 were of approximately the same proportion as the total number of entrants, you can start to say MK's results are skewed by popularity.

The fact that there are all those MK's in the top 8, and that their average is so low compared to the others indicates to me that they were all beating each other. If you have 6 MK's in the top 8, and 1 snake and 1 diddy get 2nd and 4th, of course their average placing is higher.

All that says to me is 'there are a couple Snake and Diddy players that are really good, and the rest of top 8 is MK's duking it out for the rest of the spots. The fact that there are a ton of them there alone is indication of dominance, and the reason why 4000 points means more than the average of the points/player in the rankings (at an arbitrary cutoff).

 

[adumbrodeus]

L-O-L

I <3 Ankoku so hard sometimes.

Whoever said that 'trying to use data completely predicated on top 8 finishes to show that a character is only accruing points due to popularity is wrong' was on to something.

If you can show that a proportionally huge number of entrants were MK, and that those in top 8 were of approximately the same proportion as the total number of entrants, you can start to say MK's results are skewed by popularity.

The fact that there are all those MK's in the top 8, and that their average is so low compared to the others indicates to me that they were all beating each other. If you have 6 MK's in the top 8, and 1 snake and 1 diddy get 2nd and 4th, of course their average placing is higher.

All that says to me is 'there are a couple Snake and Diddy players that are really good, and the rest of top 8 is MK's duking it out for the rest of the spots. The fact that there are a ton of them there alone is indication of dominance, and the reason why 4000 points means more than the average of the points/player in the rankings (at an arbitrary cutoff).

Learn statistics, that popularity is skewing your statistics should be your assumption that you disprove, because unless you specifically account for it in your statistics, it is almost always wrong.


I can bring near infinite possibilities that could cause problems if you don't account for population.



That's statistics 101, your statistics are automatically bogus if you don't account for population, if only it's because more people means more top level players.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Havok and Jem, I completely understand where you guys are coming from when it comes to "get better". It is easily the most intuitive and obvious solution.

The problem is, the vast majority has TRIED to get better for well over a year now. Just because mid-level players can't produce results like top level players can doesn't mean they are legitimately practicing and attempting as best as they can at getting better at the game. Only a very small handful of players can actually make the jump to becoming a top player simply by getting better.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

...This post...Lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually, I agree I don't think anyone beats Mk now either.

Snakeee. I APPROVE of that avatar pic of Clare.

 

[ANTi_]

This is why the Brawl community is looked down on you're all a whiny bunch of *****es who moan because we use Meta Knight and you cant beat it.

Man the **** up and leave the game the way it is.

MK isnt even that bad.

Good **** whiners.

 

[Scidadle]

Oh D-Torr :D

 

[Smashragde]

.... or u are good in brawl or u dont :/ no cheeses :/ meta knight is legit is just about learn the mu ....better lets bans gay stages like rc or picto....

 

[Eddie G]

.... or u are good in brawl or u dont :/ no cheeses :/ meta knight is legit is just about learn the mu ....better lets bans gay stages like rc or picto....

...

 

[meepxzero]

Havent read this entire thread, but if mk has the ability to plank, scrooge, or watever way stall out a game and theres no way to enforce it then yes maybe he does need a ban. I don't care if you make a million rules to prevent this for one character, but it will never get done.

Doesnt matter to me if mk stays or not, but this is the truth especially with mk players who play MUs they don't understand and want to win. Even tho i beat 90% of the mks out there it still feels like utter crap when they stall you out with every different option of stalling at their disposal.

 

[MarKO X]

...

that picture is awesome

 

[ShadowLink84]

This is why the Brawl community is looked down on you're all a whiny bunch of *****es who moan because we use Meta Knight and you cant beat it.

Man the **** up and leave the game the way it is.

MK isnt even that bad.

Good **** whiners.

Actually, the above post is why we are looked down upon, lack of maturity, lack of intelligent reason, and overall idiocy over a game that really isnt meant to be competitive.

 

[Nanaki]

Learn statistics, that popularity is skewing your statistics should be your assumption that you disprove, because unless you specifically account for it in your statistics, it is almost always wrong.


I can bring near infinite possibilities that could cause problems if you don't account for population.



That's statistics 101, your statistics are automatically bogus if you don't account for population, if only it's because more people means more top level players.

That's the problem, Omni's statistics aren't accounting for population AT ALL. They're accounting for a fixed, bogus population that's hand-picked. Hell, so are Overswarm's. Taking top 8 for no reason other than Ankoku's thread uses it doesn't account for population doesn't mean you've sampled randomly, it means you're using a cooked-up population that serves your purposes.

You don't need to teach me statistics, I analyze ridiculous amounts of data every day for my job.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough:

Omni's method of determining 'average player ranking' is bogus. The population is massively skewed in a ridiculous manner.

OS's method of using Ankoku's data to determine character dominance is skewed because we're only taking top 8, not an overall sampling of each tournament's entrants and using a random sampling. Main reason here is nobody gives a flying **** about anything but top 8 for a thread like Ankoku's.

Notice that neither of them are an adequate means of rooting out the 'overpopulation' problem. OS's holds more weight because it's slightly closer to being a truly random sampling.

 

[Tommy_G]

Get better.

 

[ANTi_]

Actually, the above post is why we are looked down upon, lack of maturity, lack of intelligent reason, and overall idiocy over a game that really isnt meant to be competitive.

Actually, i dont give a ****.

And if it isn't meant to be competitive why are you guys banning ****?

And wasn't the last MK ban poll supposed to be the last one.

 

[CR4SH]

Get substantially better than the person playing metaknight.

I fixed it.

There is always the option to main metaknight. In which case "get better" is effective.

 

[Espy Rose]

Actually, i dont give a ****.

And if it isn't meant to be competitive why are you guys banning ****?

And wasn't the last MK ban poll supposed to be the last one.

I don't think Anti follows his own signatures advice...lol.

 

[CR4SH]

Man the **** up and leave the game the way it is.

MK isnt even that bad.

Then why exactly do you main him now? I'm pretty sure thats now how you started. Please correct me if im wrong.

 

[MarKO X]

Actually, i dont give a ****.

And if it isn't meant to be competitive why are you guys banning ****?

And wasn't the last MK ban poll supposed to be the last one.

s**t gets banned in Smash all the time, e.g. stages.

technically, there's no poll here.

 

[ANTi_]

Then why exactly do you main him now? I'm pretty sure thats now how you started. Please correct me if im wrong.

Because hes a fun character for a game that is meant to be non-competitive and fun *sparklyeyes*

Actually why am i even posting here the only A.N hosts that's going to ban MK is probably Chibo and Wes.

EDIT : Espy i dont lol.

 

[Orion*]

Then why exactly do you main him now? I'm pretty sure thats now how you started. Please correct me if im wrong.

watch him play m2k with wolf.

anti mains the best character in the game, but he clearly is capable of maining other characters with just as much success.