Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Dizzynecro]

Why are Luigi, Fox, Zamus, and Pikachu so low?

B is not really low its still above average. C is mid tier and anything lower than C is degree's of low tier. lets say B is close to A.

I rated Zamus as C (mid tier) because i know nothing about her so disregard that i you will.

Pikachu is in B because its not quited good enough for high tier with meta knight but its debatable.

Luigi is mid. I dunno he seems solid but not outstanding like mario. C is not a bad rank.

Fox seems inferior to other space animals theese days, tell me otherwise if you have good reasons.

I don't have a lot of experiance with some characters so if you think I'm wrong explain yourself.

 

[Browny]

lol @ people still putting sonic bottom

go check the tournament results boards, youll be shocked to say the least. just because you may suck at using him doesnt mean everyone else does

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ever play a game called Guilty Gear?

In Guilty Gear even bottom tiers place well in tournies and sometimes they win.

Brawl just might be the kind of game where any character can win.

Which is why a tier list should be match-up based. Tourneys can be skewed based on who was played and based on how balanced the game is in the first place. Match-ups how ever are set in stone.

That said, I know Sonic has won a tourney here and there, but Snake, MK and a few of the better characters have won quite a few more.

I DO think pretty much any character in Brawl can place well. I mean SilentSpectre ahs been doing well with Ganon and CF. But it doesn't change the fact that the top tiers have the best match-ups overall.

 

[WhiteWingDemon]

Ever play a game called Guilty Gear?

I love Guilty Gear. I don't think it is fair to make comparisons though. Although Brawl may be that kind of game where you have all sorts of characters placing well in tournies.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Ever play a game called Guilty Gear?

In Guilty Gear even bottom tiers place well in tournies and sometimes they win.

Brawl just might be the kind of game where any character can win.

Which is why a tier list should be match-up based. Tourneys can be skewed based on who was played and based on how balanced the game is in the first place. Match-ups how ever are set in stone.

That said, I know Sonic has won a tourney here and there, but Snake, MK and a few of the better characters have won quite a few more.

I DO think pretty much any character in Brawl can place well. I mean SilentSpectre ahs been doing well with Ganon and CF. But it doesn't change the fact that the top tiers have the best match-ups overall.

You won't believe how many times I've been trying to tell people that, but apparently no one can comprehend this concept.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Ever play a game called Guilty Gear?

In Guilty Gear even bottom tiers place well in tournies and sometimes they win.

Brawl just might be the kind of game where any character can win.

Which is why a tier list should be match-up based. Tourneys can be skewed based on who was played and based on how balanced the game is in the first place. Match-ups how ever are set in stone.

That said, I know Sonic has won a tourney here and there, but Snake, MK and a few of the better characters have won quite a few more.

I DO think pretty much any character in Brawl can place well. I mean SilentSpectre ahs been doing well with Ganon and CF. But it doesn't change the fact that the top tiers have the best match-ups overall.

It's a very nice idea, except for the fact that top-tiered characters have a far greater margin of error than bottom-tiered characters do. As the meta game evolves, we'll see how much general room there is for mistakes, and that will determine the gap between the best and worst characters.

 

[Tien2500]

S tier
Marth- Eh debatable but so far he hasn't shown as much versatility as some others.
Wolf- No. He's just not that great. His blaster spam stops working at higher play levels and then he's not that great anymore. His Fsmash and Dsmash are nice but his air game is a bit weak and he's a bit slow and his recovery is bad.
Toon Link- Probably deserves a tier lower. He's good but not a tier above MK and snake.

A tier
MetaKnight- Deserves higher.
Game and Watch- Fine.
Ice Climbers- Don't know enough about them to comment.
Snake- Deserves top tier. He wins tournaments. Lots of them.
R.O.B.- Again he wins and has one of the best camping games which is very important thus far in brawl.

B tier
Olimar- His recovery is too easily gimped so he may need to be lowered.
Dedede-
Zelda-
Ike- I think Ike is being over rated here but I don't play as him that much so I can't really comment.
Pit- Deserves a bit higher.
Kirby- A bit lower. He's good but lack of weight and range are concerns and he just doesn't hold up well compared to others in this tier.
Lucas
Diddy
Falco- Should be higher. Good close game and one of the best projectiles in the game.
Pikachu

C tier
Wario- Lower range is terrible and his great air speed is somewhat negated by mediocre priority and a poor ground game.
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Samus
Zamus- Higher. Fast as Shiek, longest disjointed hitbox in the game, great aerials etc.
DK
Fox
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Ness
Captain Falcon-Lower. He just seems overall very ineffective.
Sheik
Jigglypuff

D tier
Sonic
Link
Yoshi

E tier
Bowser- Bowser is not worse than Sonic, Yoshi, Link, Jiggly, Falcon, PT and others ranked above him. Why all the Bowser hate?

F tier
Gannondorf- Yup. He sucks.

 

[MysticKenji]

S tier
Marth
Wolf
Toon Link

A tier
MetaKnight
Game and Watch
Ice Climbers
Snake
R.O.B.

B tier
Olimar
Dedede
Zelda
Ike
Pit
Kirby
Lucas
Diddy
Falco
Pikachu

C tier
Wario
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Samus
Zamus
DK
Fox
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Ness
Captain Falcon
Sheik
Jigglypuff

D tier
Sonic
Link
Yoshi

E tier
Bowser

F tier
Gannondorf

Bowser in E tier?
Falcon over 6 characters?
IKE (and Kirby) HIGHER THAN PIKACHU!?
Also, GANNON-BANNED!!!

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Man.
I know Sheik's not a god anymore but you don't have to insult her by putting her lower than Captain Failcon.

 

[Dizzynecro]

S tier
Marth- Eh debatable but so far he hasn't shown as much versatility as some others.
Wolf- No. He's just not that great. His blaster spam stops working at higher play levels and then he's not that great anymore. His Fsmash and Dsmash are nice but his air game is a bit weak and he's a bit slow and his recovery is bad.
Toon Link- Probably deserves a tier lower. He's good but not a tier above MK and snake.

A tier
MetaKnight- Deserves higher.
Game and Watch- Fine.
Ice Climbers- Don't know enough about them to comment.
Snake- Deserves top tier. He wins tournaments. Lots of them.
R.O.B.- Again he wins and has one of the best camping games which is very important thus far in brawl.

B tier
Olimar- His recovery is too easily gimped so he may need to be lowered.
Dedede-
Zelda-
Ike- I think Ike is being over rated here but I don't play as him that much so I can't really comment.
Pit- Deserves a bit higher.
Kirby- A bit lower. He's good but lack of weight and range are concerns and he just doesn't hold up well compared to others in this tier.
Lucas
Diddy
Falco- Should be higher. Good close game and one of the best projectiles in the game.
Pikachu

C tier
Wario- Lower range is terrible and his great air speed is somewhat negated by mediocre priority and a poor ground game.
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Samus
Zamus- Higher. Fast as Shiek, longest disjointed hitbox in the game, great aerials etc.
DK
Fox
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Ness
Captain Falcon-Lower. He just seems overall very ineffective.
Sheik
Jigglypuff

D tier
Sonic
Link
Yoshi

E tier
Bowser- Bowser is not worse than Sonic, Yoshi, Link, Jiggly, Falcon, PT and others ranked above him. Why all the Bowser hate?

F tier
Gannondorf- Yup. He sucks.

Good response. I cantagree with a lot of this stuff i think wolf might need to be A instaed I forgot his recovery sucks, but whatever. Captain falcon I ment to put in D but i messed up. I can't see how bowser can function, I'll look for some bowser vids and rethink it. How is boswer better than Pokemon Trainer? also like i said before I knew nothing of zamus so i just threw it in mid tier so thanks for the feedback. Also the more i think about it the more i agree meta knight is S.

Bowser in E tier?
Falcon over 6 characters?
IKE (and Kirby) HIGHER THAN PIKACHU!?
Also, GANNON-BANNED!!!

No particular order within divisions

 

[Dizzynecro]

Bowser in E tier?
Falcon over 6 characters?
IKE (and Kirby) HIGHER THAN PIKACHU!?
Also, GANNON-BANNED!!!

No particular order within divisions.

 

[daddy neptune]

I agree with Tien. Ice Climbers need to at least be in B.
Olimar should just be lower.
Fox ZSS and DK should be the top of C

 

[Emblem Lord]

Combine the S and A tier. Also Wolf and Toon Link have nothing that would put them way above the rest. Marth too for that matter.

 

[daddy neptune]

Snake
R.O.B.
MetaKnight
Falco
Marth
Toon Link
Game and Watch
Wolf
Ice Climbers

This looks better in my opinion.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

ummmm.....Luigi is better than Mario in the game.....

 

[Browny]

Match-ups how ever are set in stone.

and whos opinion at this point in time is defined as the undeniable truth.

on paper its quite easy to determine your own match ups. honestly, thats the only reason i think anyone puts lucario any lower than top of high tier (assuming top has 5-6 characters) when they dont take into account a defensive lucario can overwhelm even ganondorf when it comes to damage. playstyles have everything to do with it. I dont doubt that in time the match ups will be set in stone, but at the moment no one here can state anything as fact.

 

[Nixis]

Marth looks like he lost some good stuff... Ike's pretty slow, but he's a frickin powerhouse. However, Wolf's f-smash is probably the best in the game. Olimar has different tactics, so he could place high too, but he's pretty hard to use...
i dunno. but i really wanna see the real list soon.

 

[Tien2500]

Pokemon Trainer has some pretty big flaws. Namely Ivysaur. As much as I love Ivysaur he/she is not very good. Recovery is easily gimped and Ivy has a poor air game. While it has some strong finishers most of them are telegraphed.

Charizard also isn't that great. Flamethrower and Rock smash are very good moves but other than that charizard is a bit lacking. F-smash is very hard to connect with and laggy, while Dsmash and Usmash surprisingly aren't that powerful. Also charizard's airgame isn't as good as you'd expect. Its not bad but simply ok. Horizontal recovery is good because of gliding but vertical recovery is surprisingly bad for a character that has wings. again Charizard isn't bad but just isn't great.

Squirtle is the best of the bunch. Possibly the best aerial fighter in the game. Most moves come out with little lag. But its finishers can be hard to hit with. (Usmash and Fsmash) although aerials and Dthrow can be used to finish at higher percentages. Weight is the only problem. Squirtle alone can be high tier material but unfortunately its saddled with Ivy and Charizard.

Bowser is better than Ivysaur. Bowser has tons of power and has a good balance of quick moves and power moves. Usmash, and Fsmash are hard to hit with but are worth the risk as Bowser can score KOs at very low percentages. At higher percentages he has a ton of KO options including his tilts which are pretty fast considering their power. Also Bowser can suicide with his FB which is always good. His Up B comes out almost instantly. Heaviest character in the game. Of course Bowser also has his weaknesses. He's a huge target and has a lot of lag on a lot of his moves. While these flaws are big enough to keep him on the lower end of the tier list I don't think he should be second to last. I think he's better than Ivysaur hands down and probably slightly better than Charizard. He's a little bit worse than Squirtle but overall I'd say he's better than the average of PT's Pokemon and at least deserves to be in the same tier as them.

 

[BDawgPHD]

ummmm.....Luigi is better than Mario in the game.....

You know, because you said it, SwordmasterXXXI, I now have to question it.

Luigi has a sexy recovery, along with good aerial control and generally strong attacks. Mario is weaker, but has better projectiles and edgeguarding, not to mention the ability to shieldgrab.

Luigi is easy to use, but that might not make him better. He's easy to use because Melee players can pick up Luigi pretty easily, and because he has a good recovery. In a lot of ways, Mario has a different playstyle than he did in Melee, so it's hard to learn him. I mean, only a week ago everyone thought Mario was bottom tier, and now there's talk of him being in high tier. I think that might be exaggerating, but my Mario sucks compared to my Luigi, so I'll have to look into it more.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Pokemon Trainer has some pretty big flaws. Namely Ivysaur. As much as I love Ivysaur he/she is not very good. Recovery is easily gimped and Ivy has a poor air game. While it has some strong finishers most of them are telegraphed.

Charizard also isn't that great. Flamethrower and Rock smash are very good moves but other than that charizard is a bit lacking. F-smash is very hard to connect with and laggy, while Dsmash and Usmash surprisingly aren't that powerful. Also charizard's airgame isn't as good as you'd expect. Its not bad but simply ok. Horizontal recovery is good because of gliding but vertical recovery is surprisingly bad for a character that has wings. again Charizard isn't bad but just isn't great.

Squirtle is the best of the bunch. Possibly the best aerial fighter in the game. Most moves come out with little lag. But its finishers can be hard to hit with. (Usmash and Fsmash) although aerials and Dthrow can be used to finish at higher percentages. Weight is the only problem. Squirtle alone can be high tier material but unfortunately its saddled with Ivy and Charizard.

Bowser is better than Ivysaur. Bowser has tons of power and has a good balance of quick moves and power moves. Usmash, and Fsmash are hard to hit with but are worth the risk as Bowser can score KOs at very low percentages. At higher percentages he has a ton of KO options including his tilts which are pretty fast considering their power. Also Bowser can suicide with his FB which is always good. His Up B comes out almost instantly. Heaviest character in the game. Of course Bowser also has his weaknesses. He's a huge target and has a lot of lag on a lot of his moves. While these flaws are big enough to keep him on the lower end of the tier list I don't think he should be second to last. I think he's better than Ivysaur hands down and probably slightly better than Charizard. He's a little bit worse than Squirtle but overall I'd say he's better than the average of PT's Pokemon and at least deserves to be in the same tier as them.

Ivysaur is very good as long as he doesn't get gimped, which isn't a huge problem for a player who knows how to play defensively, even while getting knocked around. Also, you forget Charizard's tilts and jabs. Charizard is ridiculously better than you say because his tilts and jabs are strong and decently ranged, and his fair, when sweetspotted, has a lot of horizontal knockback without vertical knockback. Since you say he sucks, that means Charizard is just pretty **** good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Some playstyles are far superior and overall I would say pretty much any defensive playstyle in this game trumps an offensive one with each individual character.

Certain tactics just suck while others are better. But when someone says Sonic is low tier because of low priority, bad kill moves and such and such thats not BS. It's a fact. He has alot of flaws and his flaws out weigh his strengths.

A characters match-ups should reflect their tier position. You can't say someone is low tier, but then beats a bunch of high tier characters. That makes no sense. Well, you COULD but that low tier BETTER have some amazing counter strat to beat all those top tier characters.

That said Sonic IS low tier material, but so what?

Sonic has already won about 3 or 4 tournies maybe more. And other low tiers are palcing well. Doesn't this mean that the gap between low tiers and high tiers is closer then your average fighter?

Edit: Charizard and Bowser are like slightly altered verison of the same character. Bowser has a better forward B overall IMO. Charizard has a better air game and better recovery. They both have good ground games. Charizard has slightly better smashes, but Bowser is heavier. Actually Charizard might be a bit better, but Bowser has fortress which is awesome.

I think they should pretty much have the same spot on the list, no joke.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

* rank

Snake

S tier:

Wolf
Marth
Metaknight
Toon link

A tier:

R.O.B
Pit
Falco
Fox
DeDeDe
Ike
Olimar

Tier B

Sonic
Ness
Lucas
Kirby
Zelda
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Pikachu
Zelda
Zamus
Luigi

C tier

Sheik
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game and Watch
Wario
Ice Climbers
Mario
Peach

D tier

Bowser
Yoshi
Link
Jiggypuff

Z tier

Ganondorf
C. Falcon

Z because they're at the DEAD end

This is no particular order so example, peach might not be as bad as mario but imo they are in the same tier

Just a note, this my first attempt at a tier list.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No.

10char/

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why is Wolf so high on the tiers? I mean he's definitely good, but I highly doubt he's top tier.

For one, his projectile spam is just so so. It's not bad, but it definitely isn't amazing. It just doesn't have enough range and speed to be amazing. I don't see what's remarkably amazing about Wolf's kill options either.

Also, his horrible recovery is a real problem for his survivability.

And dude, wtf with people underrating G&W? He's top tier. It's not even arguable at this point. His only real weakness is weight, and even then he survives longer than most people because of having hax defensive options.

 

[Dry Bones]

edit: never mind =)

 

[Northbound]

Not a bad tier list except for a couple of places. Namely the fact that lucas and ness belonging to the same group is entirely incorrect. Lucas is better than ness in almost every aspect of the game.

 

[Tien2500]

Ivysaur is very good as long as he doesn't get gimped, which isn't a huge problem for a player who knows how to play defensively, even while getting knocked around. Also, you forget Charizard's tilts and jabs. Charizard is ridiculously better than you say because his tilts and jabs are strong and decently ranged, and his fair, when sweetspotted, has a lot of horizontal knockback without vertical knockback. Since you say he sucks, that means Charizard is just pretty **** good.

Eh... I never said charizard sucks. But you're right his tilts are worth mentioning. His forward tilt does great knockback and is pretty quick. His D-tilt and U-tilt are decent but not amazing. Also his f-air is pretty good when its sweetspotted but if its not you're very vulnerable. Overall its still a decent move but nothing too amazing.

As for Ivysaur no matter how good you are you're going to get knocked off the stage at some point. Its not a crippling problem to the point that makes Ivy unplayable but it definitely is a major weakness.

"Charizard and Bowser are like slightly altered verison of the same character. Bowser has a better forward B overall IMO. Charizard has a better air game and better recovery. They both have good ground games. Charizard has slightly better smashes, but Bowser is heavier. Actually Charizard might be a bit better, but Bowser has fortress which is awesome."

No... thats just not true. If you're playing Bowser the same way as you do charizard you're doing something wrong. Granted they both have firebreath but other than that their are few similarities. I'd say Charizard's FB is better but thats a judgement call. Bowser has better smashes. Their forward smashes are similar but Bowser's is a lot more powerful and with a high lag move like that power is what you're going for. Bowser's Up Smash is also better as it is more powerful. Charizard does have the better Dsmash though. Its not that powerful but has good range to punish rollers. Bowser's Dsmash is kind of useless. Overall I'd say Bowser is a bit better because of his extra weight (which will allow him to live longer than Charizard despite his weight) and better KO potential.

 

[Tien2500]

Why is Wolf so high on the tiers? I mean he's definitely good, but I highly doubt he's top tier.

For one, his projectile spam is just so so. It's not bad, but it definitely isn't amazing. It just doesn't have enough range and speed to be amazing. I don't see what's remarkably amazing about Wolf's kill options either.

Also, his horrible recovery is a real problem for his survivability.

And dude, wtf with people underrating G&W? He's top tier. It's not even arguable at this point. His only real weakness is weight, and even then he survives longer than most people because of having hax defensive options.

Wolf is overrated because he dominates against mid level gamers due to his projectile and Fsmash. His kill options are limited. His Fsmash can kill but won't because he relies on it as a damage dealer. His Dsmash is his best kill option and its ok but not amazing. He's mid tier really.

G&W being top tier is debatable but he's at least high tier. His weight can be a problem against skilled opponents who can break through his defense. He's good but is he on the same level as Snake and MK? Maybe but I don't have enough experience with him to tell.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

top tier
lucario
pikachu
Pokemon trainer
and vaporian

 

[Tien2500]

* rank

Snake- Yeah he is in his own class.

S tier:

Wolf-No. See above post.
Marth- Not sure. I'd put him in A.
Metaknight
Toon link- Again I'd go with A. He's good not amazing.

A tier:

R.O.B- Great projectiles, awesome Dsmash makes it hard to approach and a contender for best aerial fighter. S class.
Pit
Falco
Fox
DeDeDe
Ike- His overall speed and lagginess seems to be punished hardcore in top level games.
Olimar- Too light and gimpable. I'd put him in B.

Tier B

Sonic- Has very poor priority and very bad KO potential lower him.
Ness
Lucas
Kirby
Zelda
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer- I don't see why he's so high. None of his pokemon are really exceptional. Squirtle's pretty good but the others are meh.
Pikachu
Zelda
Zamus
Luigi

C tier

Sheik
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong- Great at dealing out damage. Good power, good speed, and overall good priority. Has a little trouble KOing but should be in at least B tier. Also bananas are great.
Mr. Game and Watch- High/top tier.
Wario
Ice Climbers
Mario
Peach

D tier

Bowser- More Bowser hate
Yoshi
Link
Jiggypuff

Z tier

Ganondorf
C. Falcon- Falcon is bad but I don't think he's quite as bad as Gdorf. Maybe Y tier?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Who said you should play them the same way?

They are altered enough that you play them differently, I'm just saying I see them as having the same basic model in terms of movesets.

Charizard has better smashes. Good power and speed. All Bowser has on his is power.

Charizard's d-tilt is awesome sauce. Good range, lightning speed like a Snake striking, and good knockback, so that it can actually kill. I think they are similar characters in that they play a ground game for the most part, and they are tanks. They can take a fair amount of punishment, but have a good keep away game thanks to flame breath and the range on thier tilts.

Charizard is slightly more mobile while Bowser is more of tank.

Also Charizard is better then Ivysaur.

By alot.

G-dorf is way better then CF.

 

[reborn394]

* rank

Snake- Yeah he is in his own class.

S tier:

Wolf-No. See above post.
Marth- Not sure. I'd put him in A.
Metaknight
Toon link- Again I'd go with A. He's good not amazing.

A tier:

R.O.B- Great projectiles, awesome Dsmash makes it hard to approach and a contender for best aerial fighter. S class.
Pit
Falco
Fox
DeDeDe
Ike- His overall speed and lagginess seems to be punished hardcore in top level games.
Olimar- Too light and gimpable. I'd put him in B.

Tier B

Sonic- Has very poor priority and very bad KO potential lower him.
Ness
Lucas
Kirby
Zelda
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer- I don't see why he's so high. None of his pokemon are really exceptional. Squirtle's pretty good but the others are meh.
Pikachu
Zelda
Zamus
Luigi

C tier

Sheik
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong- Great at dealing out damage. Good power, good speed, and overall good priority. Has a little trouble KOing but should be in at least B tier. Also bananas are great.
Mr. Game and Watch- High/top tier.
Wario
Ice Climbers
Mario
Peach

D tier

Bowser- More Bowser hate
Yoshi
Link
Jiggypuff

Z tier

Ganondorf
C. Falcon- Falcon is bad but I don't think he's quite as bad as Gdorf. Maybe Y tier?

I think Luigi should go in A tier. His moves just come out too fast and he has the fireballs for anti-dashing purposes.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

lol at ivysuar being my starter when i play brawl so it can die first and squirtle can pawn at the last life

 

[PIMPSLAP]

anybody wanna know how to pwn pika pm me and i will tell you how to stop it's camping.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I already know how to stop Pika's camping....

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Way to be a failure and quote yourself in your own sig.

thanks for your statement and i love you too.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

I already know how to stop Pika's camping....

? pm me i'm intrested in knowing what you think can stop him

 

[reborn394]

On a serious note though: Pikachu is improved alot from Melee.

 

[Illussionary]

Wolf is mid tier deo-wit it

 

[Tien2500]

Who siad you should play them the same way?

They are altered enough that you play them differently, I'm just saying I see them as having the same basic model in terms of movesets.

Charizard has better smashes. Good power and speed. All Bowser has on his is power.

Charizard's d-tilt is awesome sauce. Good range, lightning speed like a Snake striking, and good knockback, so that it can actually kill. I think they are similar characters in that they play a ground game for the most part, and they are tanks. They can take a fair amount of punishment, but have a good keep away game thanks to flame breath and the range on thier tilts.

Charizard is slightly more mobile while Bowser is more of tank.

Also Charizard is better then Ivysaur.

By alot.

G-dorf is way better then CF.

You said they were slightly altered which I thought implied they should be played the same way. But Charizard doesn't have better smashes... I already went into why so look at my previous post.

Charizard's Dtilt is ok but I don't think it kills until higher percentages. I could be wrong so if you can tell me when it kills I'll stand corrected. But Charizard's Utilt is definitely just meh whereas Bowser's is very powerful. Overall they both are power characters. But Bowser is much more powerful and therefore better. I'm not saying he's way better than Charizard so if you disagree thats fine.

Oh and I never said Ivysaur is better than Charizard because it isn't.

And I find Falcon to be better than Ganondorf. Ganondorf is just way too slow to be useful.