Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Contrary]

While Wolf is definitely a good character, I would not say he's top.
I'm starting to think people just LIKE the idea of him being a top tier character, since he seems like such a badass.

 

[Grunt]

My guesstimates.
tiers are in no particular order, and are generally just grouped.


TOP:
Mk
Toon Link
Falco
Snake

HIGH:
Diddy
GnW
Lucas
R.O.B.
Marth
Pikachu
Ice Climbers

MID:
Pit
Zelda
Ness
Zamus
Wolf
Olimar
Luigi
Dedede
Fox
Ike
Squirtle
Lucario
Kirby
Samus
Peach
D.K.
Wario

LOW:
Mario
Purin
Ivy
Shiek
Link
Ganon
Bowser

BOTTOM:
Charizard
Yoshi
Capt.Falcon

FANBOY:
Sonic

I'm starting to think people just LIKE the idea of him being a top tier character, since he seems like such a badass.

i almost made a "Badassedness" tier list, but never got around to it.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

My guesstimates.
tiers are in no particular order, and are generally just grouped.


TOP:
Mk
Toon Link
Falco
Snake

HIGH:
Diddy
GnW
Lucas
R.O.B.
Marth
Pikachu
Ice Climbers

MID:
Pit
Zelda
Ness
Zamus
Wolf
Olimar
Luigi
Dedede
Fox
Ike
Squirtle
Lucario
Kirby
Samus
Peach
D.K.
Wario

LOW:
Mario
Purin
Ivy
Shiek
Link
Ganon
Bowser

BOTTOM:
Charizard
Yoshi
Capt.Falcon

FANBOY:
Sonic

Fanboy tier. I love it.
Otherwise, this isn't TOO bad, but it's not flawless. Ganon being above Charizard and Yoshi...not seeing that.

 

[Grunt]

Fanboy tier. I love it.
Otherwise, this isn't TOO bad, but it's not flawless. Ganon being above Charizard and Yoshi...not seeing that.

Based off the MvsC2 "Roll Tier" where, obviously, Roll was placed.

Ganon being higher than those two is based off personal experience.
me and a friend stayed up for 13 hours setting up random matches and playing with every character to find out who was good etc.

i have never played a good charizard or yoshi that could stand up to my Ganon (plan on seconding him) much less Falco (main). after YEARS of silently watching i decided to make an account, so hopefully some good yoshi's / Charizards could show me their moves.
<------ Code's over there somewhere.

 

[hizzlum]

Marth is top tier for sure, however not the best in the game, second to none in the air (ROB is close), tons of ko moves, and a good recovery (he can go under batlefield and get to the other side), and one of the best combo abilties in the game, really his only glaring weakness is the no projectile but thats where counter and shff aerials can be used as a defense

 

[Grunt]

one of the best combo abilties in the game

Up to a point where they jump out of your "combo" and it now becomes spamming a move hoping to god they have no idea what DI is.
he IS good, but has too many disadvantages to make him Top. high for sure.

 

[Tien2500]

Based off the MvsC2 "Roll Tier" where, obviously, Roll was placed.

Ganon being higher than those two is based off personal experience.
me and a friend stayed up for 13 hours setting up random matches and playing with every character to find out who was good etc.

i have never played a good charizard or yoshi that could stand up to my Ganon (plan on seconding him) much less Falco (main). after YEARS of silently watching i decided to make an account, so hopefully some good yoshi's / Charizards could show me their moves.
<------ Code's over there somewhere.

That doesn't necessarily mean Ganon is better. It may just mean he has good matchups against those two characters but Charizard/Yosh may be better against ther rest of the cast.

 

[Grunt]

That doesn't necessarily mean Ganon is better. It may just mean he has good matchups against those two characters but Charizard/Yosh may be better against ther rest of the cast.

well, again, i've never played a good yoshi / charizard, so matches will be needing to happen.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is either top of high tier or bottom of top tier.

But he really doesn't have alot of disadvantages. It's just his match-ups aren't quite good enough to be any higher.

He honestly doesn't have that many weaknesses though.

He lacks a projectile and his recovery is only decent, but that's about it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't forget, Marth's grabs are subpar compared to others.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His grabs or his throws?

His grab range is good. His throws are ok. Not good not bad.

But he really doesn't need to grab.

He shields stabs easily and he has shieldbreaker.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Err, I more meant his throws. Marth doesn't get a whole ton of raw power in throws, nor does he get any real combo setup. Basically his throws don't have anything particularly special going for them.

Eh, Up-B out of shield is good enough though. It's just he doesn't get all that much from shieldgrabbing really.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His throws are just positioning advantage. Nothing more.

Also..no one save Lucario can combo off of thier throws.

 

[Browny]

G&W has the deadly d-throw -dmsash combo...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not a combo.

It isn't garuanteed.

You can tech roll.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Not a combo.

It isn't garuanteed.

You can tech roll.

What word is that?
I've never seen that word before in my life, and I've learned more English than a lot of kids my age, I guarantee you that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uh huh.

Are you not satisfied with hounding me at SRK young lady?

 

[MiraiGen]

What word is that?
I've never seen that word before in my life, and I've learned more English than a lot of kids my age, I guarantee you that.

See I think this is where I was talking about how saying stupid things is your shtick.

Abusing a single spelling error in an otherwise perfectly fine post isn't even directly insulting someone for being stupid or saying something ridiculous, it's just a cry for attention. Gaia indeed.

His throws are just positioning advantage. Nothing more.

Also..no one save Lucario can combo off of thier throws.

Throws really are two things at their most basic:
1 - A shield override
2 - Position change

Anything further (Lucario's grabcombos, Dedede/Whoever's chaingrabbing) pretty much is specific to the character.

So, yeah, therefore Marth's grabs pretty much are nothing special, and I agree.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just so you know...

That's Roy's old man in your sig Eliwood.

 

[Grunt]

i almost made a "Badassedness" tier list, but never got around to it.

Just Did XD

BADASS:
Wolf
Snake
C.Falcon

AWESOME:
Ganon
Meta Knight
Shiek
Marth
Falco

COOL:
Fox
Ike
Lucario
Link
Samus
Donkey Kong
Mario
Ness
Zelda
Bowser
Charizard
Luigi

PEACEFUL:
Pit
Diddy
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Peach
Pikachu
Dedede
Ivysaur

WANNA-BE:
Wario
Squirtle

CUTE:
Kirby
Purin
Yoshi

PANSY:
Olimar
Lucas

NONCHALANT:
Game and Watch
R.O.B.

THE MOST UNTHREATENING THING I'VE EVER SEEN:
Sonic

i know, way to contribute.

 

[The Enemy]

You think Wolf is more badass than Snake, huh? I'm not seeing Wolf choke loved Nintendo characters....

 

[Grunt]

You think Wolf is more badass than Snake, huh? I'm not seeing Wolf choke loved Nintendo characters....

They're pretty much tied.
Wolf had better Quotes. "show time" doesn't cut it.

 

[snerd]

why isn't pikachu "cute" B(?

 

[thethingexe]

ganondorf is more suited for the pedofile tier..

 

[Deleted member]

top: (in no particular order, except for meta)
metaknight

marth,
zelda,
olimar,
ice climbers,
fox,
ike,
snake,
toon link,
pit,
rob.

top 10 + maybe falco and pit

and far stretched addition to the top ten would be zero suit, mario, and luigi

and for no real reason, maybe diddy kong.

top 16 chars for sure?

discuss.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Eh... I never said charizard sucks. But you're right his tilts are worth mentioning. His forward tilt does great knockback and is pretty quick. His D-tilt and U-tilt are decent but not amazing. Also his f-air is pretty good when its sweetspotted but if its not you're very vulnerable. Overall its still a decent move but nothing too amazing.

As for Ivysaur no matter how good you are you're going to get knocked off the stage at some point. Its not a crippling problem to the point that makes Ivy unplayable but it definitely is a major weakness.

"Charizard and Bowser are like slightly altered verison of the same character. Bowser has a better forward B overall IMO. Charizard has a better air game and better recovery. They both have good ground games. Charizard has slightly better smashes, but Bowser is heavier. Actually Charizard might be a bit better, but Bowser has fortress which is awesome."

No... thats just not true. If you're playing Bowser the same way as you do charizard you're doing something wrong. Granted they both have firebreath but other than that their are few similarities. I'd say Charizard's FB is better but thats a judgement call. Bowser has better smashes. Their forward smashes are similar but Bowser's is a lot more powerful and with a high lag move like that power is what you're going for. Bowser's Up Smash is also better as it is more powerful. Charizard does have the better Dsmash though. Its not that powerful but has good range to punish rollers. Bowser's Dsmash is kind of useless. Overall I'd say Bowser is a bit better because of his extra weight (which will allow him to live longer than Charizard despite his weight) and better KO potential.

The thing about Charizard's fair is that it always does a decent amount of damage and then has knockback if you sweetspot it (get hit by the wings, or something...you have to be close). Now, if he misses, he just used an attack without stunning his opponent in any way, which means he is most likely gonna get hit. At high percentages this can be a problem, but Charizard is a tank....it isn't such a problem to be trading hits with people.

And I can't remember if I said that you should play Charizard like you should play Bowser. Using Charizard means taking advantage of his tilts and his beastly-ranged grabs, and being aggressive. Bowser is all about being defensive until you knock the enemy off balance, and then chasing like an angry ****ing turtle. Also, I'm pretty sure Bowser's dsmash is better, and just as good for punishing rollers. I'd say Bowser is definitely better than Charizard, just due to sheer range, speed, and attack power.

 

[BibulousDan]

This is my friend's tier list. Criticism is needed. Go.

Top Tier:
---------
1. R.O.B.
2. Marth
3. King Dedede
4. Snake
5. Toon Link
6. Falco
7. Meta Knight
8. Ice Climbers

High Tier:
---------
9. Wario
10. Zelda/Sheik
11. Ike
12. Pit
13. Pikachu
14. Lucas
15. Mr Game & Watch
16. Sonic

Mid-Tier:
---------
17. Ness
18. Luigi
19. Fox
20. Lucario
21. Diddy Kong
22. Kirby
23. Pokemon Trainer
24. Peach

Low Tier:
---------
25. Yoshi
26. Jigglypuff
27. Captain Falcon
28. Samus
29. Mario
30. Donkey Kong
31. Bowser



Bottom Tier:
------------
32. Wolf
33. Link
34. Olimar
35. Ganondorf

Alright, Oli pwns and wolf should be higher up. I can't see why Sonic is higher than mario, sonic really has almost no knockback. also i can't see ROB being at the top. Bowser should be alitte higher up, since he was buffed to the enth degree. my last note, i think that T Link or Snake should be top. thats all.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

See I think this is where I was talking about how saying stupid things is your shtick.

Abusing a single spelling error in an otherwise perfectly fine post isn't even directly insulting someone for being stupid or saying something ridiculous, it's just a cry for attention. Gaia indeed.

Or maybe my gripe with EmblemLord was so outrageously stupid that it could only mean that I was kidding with him. I kid with him a LOT, because he takes a joke very well, making it fun to joke with him.
In other news, Samus needs to be high tier on badass tier lists.

 

[St. Viers]

Guys, wolf is good because he has good, lagless aerials. According to the back room, when people start playing him right he'll own, because they won't need to waste the f-smash to rack up damage. His recovery isn't as good as others, but it's still a good recovery.

Maybe not top tier, but still high tier, I think.

Also, DK should be higher than low, at least top of low, but maybe more like mid of mid. He has range, quick moves, excellent aerials, and ways to gimp people. He's heavy and lasts awhile. He also has a variety of KO moves.

ROB isn't top tier, I think you meant to write G&W there, and then have ROB where G&W is now

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Guys, wolf is good because he has good, lagless aerials. According to the back room, when people start playing him right he'll own, because they won't need to waste the f-smash to rack up damage. His recovery isn't as good as others, but it's still a good recovery.

Maybe not top tier, but still high tier, I think.

Also, DK should be higher than low, at least top of low, but maybe more like mid of mid. He has range, quick moves, excellent aerials, and ways to gimp people. He's heavy and lasts awhile. He also has a variety of KO moves.

ROB isn't top tier, I think you meant to write G&W there, and then have ROB where G&W is now

I agree with you on Donkey Kong. It's been my experience that he's very, very underrated in every Smash game.

 

[Tien2500]

Guys, wolf is good because he has good, lagless aerials. According to the back room, when people start playing him right he'll own, because they won't need to waste the f-smash to rack up damage. His recovery isn't as good as others, but it's still a good recovery.

Maybe not top tier, but still high tier, I think.

Also, DK should be higher than low, at least top of low, but maybe more like mid of mid. He has range, quick moves, excellent aerials, and ways to gimp people. He's heavy and lasts awhile. He also has a variety of KO moves.

ROB isn't top tier, I think you meant to write G&W there, and then have ROB where G&W is now

Thats not exactly what the back room said. They seemed to be split with some thinking he's going to get worse while some thinking he'll get better.

 

[blood77]

Ok I am not here to disagree with anyone and their tier lists, but what I believe is this... there are no tiers for Brawl. As much as I see, and even agree with some, tier lists there is always enough players that I run into that break that lists. I believe that Nintendo made the game balanced enough that any character could be good. The only difference is how much effort it will take to be good with a character.

Take meta knight, he is very easy to become good with because he has very simply strategies for his moves and really good recovery. On the other hand we have DK who while having a lot of kill moves, and I mean a LOT, he is kind of slow and can have a bad recovery when trying to come up from a low point. However every so often I see a DK that will do fairly well and even rip apart some extremely good players simply because he has never seen a good DK and thus has put the possibility out f his head and lets his gaurd down when he runs into one. So it is a very painful defeat when you are beaten by a character who you thought couldn't do well and would probably never even encounter because they are shoved so low on a tier list that you thought was really spot on.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

I think Snake will drop, unfortunatly, I'd explain, but im still a little tired

 

[Emblem Lord]

I see Wolf dominating at every level but the highest due to ease of use and how unorthodox his style is. At the highest level it is harder to win with him, because good playes will gimp him and realize that he can only be played in a reactive/campy manner.

He is a one dimensional character.

Also Ivysaur sucks. Let me break it down.

- Horrible damage on alot of her useful moves. Her f-tilt, jab combo, and bair all have pitiful damage. F-tilt and bair do around 4% and f-tilt is easily DIed out of. Her jab combo can do around 8% or less and is also easily DIed out of. Her u-tilt does around 7%, which isn't good at all.

- Alot of useless moves or moves that will just not hit a competant opponent consistently or see much use. D-tilt and d-smash just suck in terms of damage. Nair has good damage, but you can DI out of it since it multi hits and the multi hits aren't even fast. U-smash has good range too, but is telegraphed alot so it won't hit good players.

- You can't control the speed or trajectory of Razor Leaf. Plus it's easily jabbed or perfect shielded. One of the worst projectiles.

- Terrible recovery. Easily gimped at low percents. All an opponent has to do is knock her off and then edge hug. If she had to use her jump to get close again or she got while jumping and then her opponent grabs the ledge, she is done.

- Kill moves aren't even that great. F-smash is solid, but that's about it. Still it's a little unsafe from what I have seen. The rest of her kill moves aren't that good and easy to see coming. Her fair is ok, but it has a bit of start-up to it.

- You can DI the first launching hit of Bullet Seed. Just hold forward and you will completely avoid the seeds. This was her best damage builder, but since it's so easily escaped, one of her best attributes is now useless.

- NO MATCH-UPS WHERE SHE DOES WELL THAT CHARIZARD AND SQUIRTLE DON'T DO BETTER IN. This is a big one right here. She beats...CF and Ganon..and...uhhhh...yeah. Maybe one or two others.


Low tier material for sure. Maybe Bottom.

Also PT can't be seen as one character. All 3 pokemon have different match-ups. Granted the game forces you to switch, but I don't think you can make an accurate chart when you don't look at all 3 match-ups for the pokemon.

 

[Tien2500]

Ok I am not here to disagree with anyone and their tier lists, but what I believe is this... there are no tiers for Brawl. As much as I see, and even agree with some, tier lists there is always enough players that I run into that break that lists. I believe that Nintendo made the game balanced enough that any character could be good. The only difference is how much effort it will take to be good with a character.

Take meta knight, he is very easy to become good with because he has very simply strategies for his moves and really good recovery. On the other hand we have DK who while having a lot of kill moves, and I mean a LOT, he is kind of slow and can have a bad recovery when trying to come up from a low point. However every so often I see a DK that will do fairly well and even rip apart some extremely good players simply because he has never seen a good DK and thus has put the possibility out f his head and lets his gaurd down when he runs into one. So it is a very painful defeat when you are beaten by a character who you thought couldn't do well and would probably never even encounter because they are shoved so low on a tier list that you thought was really spot on.

Tiers don't mean one character will always beat the other. It just means one has an advantage. MK does have an advantage against DK but an exceptional DK player could beat him. But on average if you pit an equally skilled DK vs an equally skilled MK, MK will win most of the time.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I see Wolf dominating at every level but the highest due to ease of use and how unorthodox his style is. At the highest level it is harder to win with him, because good playes will gimp him and realize that he can only be played in a reactive/campy manner.

He is a one dimensional character.

Also Ivysaur sucks. Let me break it down.

- Horrible damage on alot of her useful moves. Her f-tilt, jab combo, and bair all have pitiful damage. F-tilt and bair do around 4% and f-tilt is easily DIed out of. Her jab combo can do around 8% or less and is also easily DIed out of. Her u-tilt does around 7%, which isn't good at all.

- Alot of useless moves or moves that will just not hit a competant opponent consistently or see much use. D-tilt and d-smash just suck in terms of damage. Nair has good damage, but you can DI out of it since it multi hits and the multi hits aren't even fast. U-smash has good range too, but is telegraphed alot so it won't hit good players.

- You can't control the speed or trajectory of Razor Leaf. Plus it's easily jabbed or perfect shielded. One of the worst projectiles.

- Terrible recovery. Easily gimped at low percents. All an opponent has to do is knock her off and then edge hug. If she had to use her jump to get close again or she got while jumping and then her opponent grabs the ledge, she is done.

- Kill moves aren't even that great. F-smash is solid, but that's about it. Still it's a little unsafe from what I have seen. The rest of her kill moves aren't that good and easy to see coming. Her fair is ok, but it has a bit of start-up to it.

- You can DI the first launching hit of Bullet Seed. Just hold forward and you will completely avoid the seeds. This was her best damage builder, but since it's so easily escaped, one of her best attributes is now useless.

- NO MATCH-UPS WHERE SHE DOES WELL THAT CHARIZARD AND SQUIRTLE DON'T DO BETTER IN. This is a big one right here. She beats...CF and Ganon..and...uhhhh...yeah. Maybe one or two others.


Low tier material for sure. Maybe Bottom.

Also PT can't be seen as one character. All 3 pokemon have different match-ups. Granted the game forces you to switch, but I don't think you can make an accurate chart when you don't look at all 3 match-ups for the pokemon.

GOD. YOU SPEAK SO MUCH EFFING TRUTH.
I put a good deal of time into Ivysaur because I think she's adorable. I still think she's adorable, especially her winpose where she supports all her weight on her belly. "Saur, saur, saur!" Kwaaaa, so cute.
But anyways. Ivysaur just isn't worth the time for every Pokemon Trainer that I've met. They usually just swap out between Squirtle and Charizard.

 

[St. Viers]

>_< why must I do this?

Anywho, a tier list based off of my experience, plus basic knowledge. (not organized fully within sections)
some explanations For tiers, It's
organized into the following tiers, because f the number of characters that melee didn't.
Better than Top: The best characters
Top: Extremely good character
High:
Upper:
Mid
Low
Bottom.

Better-Than-Top
MK:
He is quick, has excellent recovery, racks up damage well, and gets to keep his kill moves while doing it. His grab is great as a forcing attack, though not for comboing. because of his quick, lagless aerials he has an easier time edgeguarding. His smashes are only decent, his f-smash is slightly laggy, and his up smash doesn't kill, though again it's a pressure move because now they are above someone with a disjointed hitbox, limiting what they can do. His problems are that he is light, and his range although good, isn't the best. He also has no projectile, but because of his multiple options, that isn't such a problem...

I can see him changing to top/high eventually, but not for awhile.

Snake:
All about control. Even if the opponent knows where the mines are, it still limits what they can do, and you can still force them on to some (throws, tilts, etc) If you treat him as a "normal" character, he isn't so good, as his smashes aren't typical smashes, and you have to instead rely on tilts. His tilts are as good as typical smashes though, especially f-tilt. He is mobile, thanks to boost-dashing, and has a wide variety of versitile projectiles. His aerial game isn't the best, but they have their uses, most noticeably his b-air and up-air. Also, his taunt can spike, how cool is that ^_^

G&W:
Finally as good as he should have been in melee. His f-air is great for spacing, killing, and retreating. His up-air is amazing in this game, as it forces the opponent to react, even if it doesn't hit. His b-air is one of the best approaches in the game, and thanks to RARing it makes it even more useful. His d-throw doesn't combo, but it allows for tech-chasing, AND if I'm pretty sure down-throw to jab does always hit some characters. One of the best throws regardless (behind DDD and IC, and falco). His hammer isn't AS useless, and his f-smash still comes out quick, and has almost no wind-down lag. His UpB is amazing and versatile. His d-air is amazing, and his n-air, although not a kill move is still very useful, especially as it's range is deceptively large. He has a situational projectile, though the situations where it is useable are more frequent than most people realize, and the pan has decent damage and knock-back too. His oil panic was buffed, and makes him one of the best anti-campers in the game (that plus turtle I think take out all projectiles). His only problem is being light. However, as his shield doesn't suck in this game, it isn't as much of a problem as in melee. Plus, he can kill at low percents (especially with his upB-f-air gimp).

Falco:
he has the best viable spam game in Brawl. His lasers are fast, stun, and damage (making them better than fox's, wolf's, and other good projectiles like pit's arrows, or lucario's aura sphere). Add th ereflector and you have another excellent "my camping> your camping" game. His throws combos, and he can gimp off the edge at low percents. He has a decent aerial game, enough ways to kill AND rack up damage. He's pretty much in the God Tier because he is has no cons, and some pros (imagine a stepmania song that was 14/10 steps, and that's falco)

In summation, these 4 characters have the greatest advantages, coupled with the least disadvantages. On top of that, they each of use the "as of now" know facts of brawl in more ways most other characters. This is what separates them from Top tier.

Can anyone argue with this? If so, do it via AIM or something as well as posting, because conversing with people on AIM is easier than doing it over a forum. Anywho, I' won't go into so much detail (yet) with the others, only cause I wanna flesh the rest out.

Top
Marth:
IC:
Look, from a theory standpoint they are the best, because they have guarenteed 0-death combos. Meaning that they would be in God tier except that you can outcamp them, and humans aren't machines.
DDD:
Pit:
His lack of kill moves/short range and size/weight ratio are all that barely keep him from being "God"ly
Pikachu

High
Olimar: People will say he should be higher, but I disagree. he's just novel, and his size/movement/what exactly he's doing confuses people. I don't see him staying top, so I'm not putting him there.
Wolf
Lucas
Lucario
ROB
Toon Link
Zelda

For these 3 tiers, I wanna make something clear: They arent' that separated. Any character from these tiers has an almost even chance of beating any other character,which is why organizing within categories is useless. It's just that some characters have a natural advantage due to slightly better moves, or things like that. Feel free to debate, but don't tell me:

1. x should be higher.
2. x should be lower.

Instead say why you think that, and while doing it show that you are taking more than just your opinion into account. Use fact, not opinion. It makes it easier to discuss, and by basing things in fact you can then submit opinions and they will be more valid.

Upper
Kirby
Diddy:
I'm mixed about him. I want him to be higher, but I just don't think he will be. People just aren't used to him yet.
DK
Sheik
Luigi
Ness
Wario
Fox

Mid
Samus
Link
Ike
Bowser
PT

Low
Jiggz
Mario
Yoshi
Peach

Bottom
Sonic
Falcon
Ganon.

If need be I'll add more explanations.

Thats not exactly what the back room said. They seemed to be split with some thinking he's going to get worse while some thinking he'll get better.

sorry, you are right. However, they did say that when people use his aerials right, it will make his f-smash more useful.

I see Wolf dominating at every level but the highest due to ease of use and how unorthodox his style is. At the highest level it is harder to win with him, because good playes will gimp him and realize that he can only be played in a reactive/campy manner.

He is a one dimensional character.

True, but in melee falco could be played (relatively) one-dimensionally and still beat good players. Wolf isn't that good, but he's not bad. Just boring.

 

[Emblem Lord]

God tier doesn't mean the best.

It means virtually unstoppable.

Look at Magneto in MvC2 and you get the idea. There is no character in Brawl that fits that bill. I don't think Brawl has a God tier.

 

[St. Viers]

^^Using it just to say it's above "Top" If I deviated more from regular tier names people would look at me funny. I forgot that got tier has an actual gamer definition though. Thanks!

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

this is a ****ing travesty.

first of all, pt is one character. you get two minutes with each pokemon if you stand COMPLETELY STILL. your time with each pokemon is closer to, maybe, 1:15. maybe. good luck making those "matchups" mean jack ****. you use the three pokemon AS ONE. THAT'S HOW THE CHARACTER WORKS.

second of all, ivysaur is a god ****ed sexual tyrannosaurus. i've found that razor leaf has a fairly high amount of priority, meaning it cancels out most other projectiles and generally gets to keep going. and apparently you CAN control it, but i never looked into that because i enjoyed the fact that it is otherwise pretty random. and speaking of razor leaf, while it may not be the best projectile in the game, it IS what makes ivysaur such a ***** to deal with. spamming razor leaf forces your opponent to either (a) roll in, and with good spacing on YOUR part, this forces them to eat ~40% damage from bullet seed, or (b) they approach from the air, and eat a vine whip, which is very useful even without being sweetspotted. ivysaur, for it's other abilities, has completely unfair power. upsmash is the deadliest move in the game, and it's NOT hard to land. you get an AERIAL version of this move too. fair is a kill move, is fast enough that i don't really remember ever being punished for it, and it has enough range to contend with marth and metaknight. bair also has ridiculous range, has two hits, and autocancels. it's good ****. tilts are all useful, smashes are all useful... like i said, ivysaur is a god ****ed sexual tyrannosaurus.

third of all, charizard is not by any means a terrible character. flamethrower gives you a great approach and keep away game. rocksmash is a shield burner and if you sweet spot it you'll deal about 40% damage. up b is NOT bad like someone said. it's nothing special, but it gets the job done. it's also a very, very good vertical kill move. upsmash is kind of dumb, fsmash is kind of dumb, but dsmash is fantastic. it's fast, hits on both sides of him, and has good launching power. all of his tilts are just incredible. each one has range, speed, and knockback. where charizard falls short, in my opinion, is in his aerial game. his best one, fair, is a free hit on you if you don't sweet spot it (but if you do, it's a boss move). the other aerials, in my experience, either have small hitboxes, low range, or lag on either end of the move. charizard's aerial game is workable, but for someone with wings it's kind of unimpressive. charizard is still a *****in pokemon though.

pt, first and foremost, is one character. the individual pokemon may have their own matchups, but you play them as one character, meaning that making the tier list reflect their individual potentials has no value to the players, meaning that it's an empty gesture. pt, as one character, is no worse than mid tier. you'll have a pretty rough time with most of the top tier characters (snake, marth, metaknight, tl), but other than that nobody can really work you over unless you let them.