Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Sikarios]

I think the fact that Ivysaur is the worst of the three Poke's was intentional on the developer's behalf. Like ya'll said, the other two are SO GOOD in many matchups that I see Ivy as a sort of balancer to the UBERUBERness of Squirtle and the fact that Charizard is one of the best heavyweights next to perhaps DK or DDD.

Ivy is not w/o her strengths, though. Bottom tier, really?

A lot of what Emblem Lord said is true, for example, Ivy's projectile is horrible and should hardly ever be used. The bullet seed is not too great either, and Ivy is easily gimped.

But what Emblem didn't mention is Ivy's above average spacing abilities. Ivy does pretty great from the ground due to the good jab, Fsmash, and grab moves, and I'm of the personal opinion that Ivy is pretty good in the air as well, but not in the same way a G&W or a Wario might be.

I think Ivy serves her role between the three, which is, to control the fight while the other two get their "wind" back. Ivy has the most trouble against spammy characters, but, if played defensively (and much differently) than the other two, she's not w/o her merits.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I said she has good range did I not. My bad if I didn't.

But her damage is so pathetic that it doesn't even really matter.

 

[Laijin]

Wolf and DDD fail at life?
Why?
Because they suck against Kirby. And I base everything around Kirby.
Which makes Snake and Metaknight(and GW and Zelda) God Tier.
So heres my list:

Top:
Snake
Metaknight
Game and Watch
Zelda

High:
Kirby
Lucas
Marth
Yoshi
Pikachu
Toon Link
Peach
PT

Mid:
Fox
ZSS
Bowser
Diddy
Lucario
ROB
Sonic
Dedede
ICs
Pit
Mario
Ness

Low:
Olimar(Against Kirby. This guy fails at life)
Wolf(Honestly. By far one of Kirby's easiest match ups)
Wario
DK
Ganon
Luigi
Sheik

Bottom:
Ike
Falcon
Samus
Jiggs
Link(Honestly. I dont know who should go lower. Jiggs or Link).


YEP. MY LIST IS PRETTY ACCURATE WHEN IT COMES TO KIRBY :O

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

I said she has good range did I not. My bad if I didn't.

But her damage is so pathetic that it doesn't even really matter.

and honestly, i don't see how you could possibly say that. as someone who plays pt regularly, i've never felt like building damage was a problem.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude. Ivysaur isn't good. Look at her moves hit for hit. Everyone of them. Most of her best moves do crap damage.

Plus I named all her other flaws. All she has going for her is range.

Just accept it. Ivysaur isn't good and doesn't have many good match-up at all. Squirtle and Charizard are superior to her.

And Charizard is only mid tier while Squirtle is probably around the bottom of high tier.

 

[St. Viers]

I <3 laijin. That is an excellent tier list, and I think the kirby standard should be the official one >_>

@emblemlord: but if you use her to simply frustrate the enemy while your other pokemon rest, she excels. Which is why (and I think you agree with me) PT can't be considered as just the 3 pokemon separately.

 

[Sonic XD]

Would any of you say that MK is higher in the tier list than TL? I heard many smashers say that TL is gonna be top tier.

 

[SlickSlicer]

How would you guys rank Mr. Game and Watch? Is he at a good tier? I noticed that he has improved quite a bit since melee. In fact, in melee I thought he sucked (even though I liked him), but now he's my main.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Mr. Game and Watch is a beast in Brawl. A-tier at the lowest.

 

[St. Viers]

Sonic XD: I'd say that although toon link has some strong points, he isn't as good overall as MK. Hearing someone say TL will be high/top tier is not worth much, as everyone has said that about every character. I think that right now people think he is better than he is, and as more people plat more, it will turn out that he's good, but not great ( still too short of a range up close, and too light/floaty). So TL is a great char, and very old melee player friendly, which is why he seems so good now.

SlickSlicer: G&W is very good now. So have fun.

 

[Roller]

G&W is beast

 

[TehBo49]

Because it's early in this games history & also for simplicity, I'm only using high, middle, & low tiers for my list. High tier characters are above average, middles are average, & lows are below average. Also, sorry VulgarHandGestures but I'm splitting up PT in my list. This is because even though you are forced to switch between pokemon, most PT players tend to favor one pokemon & use it more than the others, so I think they need to be considered individually (also because 39 goes into 3 & 37 doesn't). Characters in each tier aren't in any particular order.

**HIGH**
Toon Link
Falco
Snake
G&W
Meta Knight
Pikachu
Wolf
Pit
Lucas
ROB
Olimar
ICs
Marth

**MIDDLE**
Wario
Dedede
Zelda
Squirtle
Samus
Diddy Kong
Fox
Lucario
Zamus
Sheik
Kirby
Ness
Luigi

**LOW**
Peach
Captain Falcon
Link
Sonic
Donkey Kong
Ike
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Ivysaur
Mario
Ganondorf
Bowser
Charizard

 

[Roller]

Yay! Pokemon trainer sucks!

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Dude. Ivysaur isn't good. Look at her moves hit for hit. Everyone of them. Most of her best moves do crap damage.

Plus I named all her other flaws. All she has going for her is range.

Just accept it. Ivysaur isn't good and doesn't have many good match-up at all. Squirtle and Charizard are superior to her.

And Charizard is only mid tier while Squirtle is probably around the bottom of high tier.

and i disagree entirely. you keep saying that ivysaur can't rack up damage, and i'm telling you that i've never had that problem, at all.

you can't just say "YA HUH" at me and expect me to go along with it. maybe the moves don't do very much damage, but if that's true, it's not affecting me very much, making it a null point.

and charizard/squirtle can't be mid/high tier because they're not separate characters

 

[Emblem Lord]

I have already proven that she isn't a good character. If you don't have trouble racking up damage with her that's great. It still stands that she isn't good at it and you would do better at it with another character.

If Charizard and Squirtle aren't seperate characters how come I can choose them on the character select screen?

Anyway, if you go by that then PT kinda sucks too.

Lower mid tier most likely.

 

[Laijin]

I <3 laijin. That is an excellent tier list, and I think the kirby standard should be the official one >_>

@emblemlord: but if you use her to simply frustrate the enemy while your other pokemon rest, she excels. Which is why (and I think you agree with me) PT can't be considered as just the 3 pokemon separately.

Yea. The Kirby standard SHOULD be the official one. Cause honestly, I dont see why everyone complains about fighting DDD and getting Chain Grabbed. Just pick Kirby and you'll win. Kirby chain grabs Wolf too. :\

In the end. Kirby wins against majority of the game.

 

[Roller]

Emblem Lord speaks the truth...AND HOLY****! I'm from scotch plains NJ TOO!

 

[St. Viers]

hey, since neither of you will admit you are wrong, let's drop it. Even if Emblem Lord is right that her attacks don't do much damage.

You seem to be saying that because of her range, it's easy for her to get hits, right VHG?

He *seems* to be saying that her attacks are weak, which is also right... so you just value her ability to outrange/score more hits than he does, and he values the fact that her hits don't DO much, even if you can get them in.

so just drop it...>_<

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm not wrong though.

I SAID she has good range. This fact does nothing to mitigate her weaknesses.

Hence, Ivysaur sucks.

 

[Roller]

Ivysaur does suck. So will you idiots stop defending it!

 

[Robiin]

This is my list. I split Zelda & Sheik, Samus & Zamus & PTs pokémon. I haven't got real experience of all the chras, but this is my thought right now:

High Tier (above average - really good)
Marth
Mr Game & Watch
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Meta Knight
Falco
Snake
Wolf
Sonic
Toon Link

Middle Tier (average - good)
Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Luigi
Pit
Squirtle
Charizard
Ike
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Wario
R.O.B
Olimar
Lucas

Low Tier (below average - not so good)
Samus
Sheik
Ivysaur
Peach
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Lucario
Ness
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff

 

[BDawgPHD]

I'm not wrong though.

I SAID she has good range. This fact does nothing to mitigate her weaknesses.

Hence, Ivysaur sucks.

Wrong. If Ivysaur can constantly outrange/camp a player, it doesn't matter how little damage HE does. Your logic is faulty.

 

[Kiwikomix]

To the Ivysaur debaters:

Emblem Lord, you say Ivysaur's attacks do crap damage. So here's the damage her attacks do, straight from the PT guide they have up.
Dash Attack = 10-12%, f-tilt = 14%, f-smash = 16%, u-smash 17%, fair = 12%, uair = 16%, and of course, bullet seed 30-40%. Seems like good damage to me.
I think you're probably basing your judgment on the d-smash, u and d-tilts, razor leaf, and nair and bair. To be blunt, every character has attacks that don't do as much damage, so saying Ivy doesn't do enough damage when so many of her attacks do is kind of pointless.

Lobelia, first of all, Ivysaur is a she, but that doesn't really matter. Razor Leaf is a good projectile, it's easily spammed and can cancel out or go through most other projectiles. And for the love of God, it's not that hard to recover as Ivysaur: just toss a razor leaf at your opponent and grab the ledge once they fall off it. If you can't do that, hit them with the up-B and hope it hits them back (this works a lot more than it sounds like it does) so they can't recover. You say she doesn't have many KO moves, but that doesn't automatically put MK in low tier, does it?

Sikarios, you say Bullet Seed isn't very good, that cancels out your opinion.

 

[St. Viers]

@Rollerking. If by "defend ivysaur," you mean I'm telling people that her having long range/weak attacks means that whether she sucks or not is a matter of opinion (based on whether you value quicker damage build, or not), then yeah, I am. I personally think that her long range isn't so important, and the fact that she's weak is bad. But opinions aside, those two factors equal each other out, and not everything ELSE about her sucks.

@Emblemlord: You're arguing wrong, but you're still right that she sucks, (see my rollerking response) You just need to word your argument so that people don't misunderstand/diliberately pick at an inconsequential point.

@Ivysaur defenders: lets say weak attacks =x, range=y, and her other flaws (kinda slow, bad recovery, laggy kill moves) =z, where z is a negative number. That means that y+x>z, and since x is a negative, then y>(x+z), where x+z is an even MORE negative number. Unless her range is completly broken, it can't make up for her flaws. I hope the math example didn't confuse you, but I'm getting bored of coming up with ways of saying the same thing.

 

[BDawgPHD]

.....You say she doesn't have many KO moves, but that doesn't automatically put MK in low tier, does it?

Sikarios, you say Bullet Seed isn't very good, that cancels out your opinion.

You, sir, are a tardbaby. MK has, like, 27 kill moves, and 56.9 ways to kill people.

...okay, I exaggerated, but Meta Knight has absolutely no problem killing....in fact, he's one of the easiest characters to get kills with, I find. And he has some moves that kill on their own, without edgeguarding or comboing off the stage.

Bullet seed is pretty **** good, although you can DI out of it properly before getting *****, I suppose. It's also not an auto-****, you have to have good spacing and stuff to use it properly.

Also, I don't care what anyone says....and I mean it, I don't even give a **** what SBR says......Ivysaur is a dude

EDIT: nice job not talking about HIS jab, which has the most range out of everything. I could see that it would weaken your "Ivysaur has damaging moves" theory

 

[Deleted member]

@Ivysaur defenders: lets say weak attacks =x, range=y, and her other flaws (kinda slow, bad recovery, laggy kill moves) =z, where z is a negative number. That means that y+x>z, and since x is a negative, then y>(x+z), where x+z is an even MORE negative number. Unless her range is completly broken, it can't make up for her flaws. I hope the math example didn't confuse you, but I'm getting bored of coming up with ways of saying the same thing.

Oh god yes it did =/

 

[BDawgPHD]

Oh god yes it did =/

He's basically saying that when you factor in Ivysaur being a good character, the good has to outweigh the bad, and with bad recovery, sluggishness, and weak moves, the range would have to be ridiculous in order to compensate.

 

[Kiwikomix]

You, sir, are a tardbaby. MK has, like, 27 kill moves, and 56.9 ways to kill people.

...okay, I exaggerated, but Meta Knight has absolutely no problem killing....in fact, he's one of the easiest characters to get kills with, I find. And he has some moves that kill on their own, without edgeguarding or comboing off the stage.

You get 10 pts for insulting ability.

But you actually helped prove my point with your MK speech. Remember back when everybody and everybody else said that he couldn't kill? That he could rack damage and go nowhere with it? That's exactly what you're all saying about Ivysaur, but just wait and you'll see that they're wrong about this, too.

He's basically saying that when you factor in Ivysaur being a good character, the good has to outweigh the bad, and with bad recovery, sluggishness, and weak moves, the range would have to be ridiculous in order to compensate.

Sorry for the double BDawg quote first of all.
Ivysaur does NOT have weak moves, I already proved that.
She (or he, if you really want to be that way) does have bad recovery, but she really isn't sluggish enough to be called slow. Really, the only attack whose startup people don't like is her fair. You really shouldn't have that big of a problem hitting someone with an attack just because the startup lasts a split-second, pretty much the same amount as Marth's f-smash. That doesn't have any problem killing people, does it?

I'll probably get flamed for this, because apparently everyone hates Ivysaur here.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Ivysaur sucks and deserves to be in bottom tier, get over it. How can a character whose weaknesses far outweigh they're strengths, and have no advantageous match-ups possibly be any higher than bottom tier?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes.

And her range isn't enough to make for her plethora of flaws.

 

[Trace_User500]

Kirby-Eh... he's a natural counter to Metaknight in my limited experience, and has some nice moves, but overall I am not impressed. Rock is rock, hammer is hammer... Kirby didn't change much from his Melee days, which were almost identical to his 64 days.
QUOTE] Yeah... kind of obvious what I don't agree with.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

but ivysaur doesn't JUST have range. that's part of where these guys are losing me on the ivysaur debate. ivysaur does have a lot of range yes, but ivysaur also has three of the most broken moves in the game, a projectile that sets up PERFECTLY for two of those ridiculously broken moves, absolutely fantastic aerials... i honestly could go on and on. ivysaur isn't the best, but there's nothing about it that puts it in the bottom or even low tier.

let me ask you something, emblem lord. how would you rank lucas? low end of high tier? i ask, because lucas seems to be a reasonably respected character, and earlier today i went toe-to-toe with a lucas player using ivysaur. we were both at 130% before i tagged him with a sweet spotted vine whip to end the match. and he may not have been what you would consider good, but i would say he was decent. he was a pretty tough nut to crack, all in all. so let's say he wasn't the best lucas player, and i'm not exactly a pt mainer, so would you agree that that makes things somewhat even? if i can make ivysaur essentially top a character that some are putting in the top tier, what does that tell you?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Ivysaur sucks and deserves to be in bottom tier, get over it. How can a character whose weaknesses far outweigh they're strengths, and have no advantageous match-ups possibly be any higher than bottom tier?

Did you know there's a matchup chart right here in tactical discussion? Obviously not, because you apparently haven't looked at it. Ivysaur has plenty of advantageous matchups.
And I'm not arguing that Ivysaur is a sub-par character, but come on... not bottom tier. Save that one for the characters that truly have no advantages that can be used.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kiwikomix: You can DI out of her mulithitting moves and completely avoid Bullet Seed on start-up.

Also F-tilt damage is wrong. It does not do that much damage.

Whatever. It's not even debatable.

Ivysaur is ***

She has no good match-ups really except against other characters filled with suckitude.

St. Vier: I'm not even arguing at this point. I'm stating facts.

Honestly if that chart has Ivysaur with a bunch of advantageous match-ups I will argue against it.

For the record I think she is low tier not bottom.

I don't know what made you gys think that since I never stated that and I ALWAYS state exactly what I mean in debates.

Anyone that has read what I have posted in the match-up thread should know this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Double post but **** it.

VulgarHandGestures: Your match with that Lucas was meaningless. You are not at the pinnacle of skill and I don't even know if you were evenly matched.

Did that Lucas abuse what makes his character good? Did he try to gimp you? Did you abuse what makes Ivysaur good?

I don't know.

Either way, it means nothing and I'm done talking about this.

Ivysaur is not a good character. Case closed.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Kiwikomix: You can DI out of her mulithitting moves and completely avoid Bullet Seed on start-up.

Also F-tilt damage is wrong. It does not do that much damage.

Whatever. It's not even debatable.

Ivysaur is ***

She has no good match-ups really except against other characters filled with suckitude.

St. Vier: I'm not even arguing at this point. I'm stating facts.

Honestly if that chart has Ivysaur with a bunch of advantageous match-ups I will argue against it.

It does that much damage if you can hit every time, which really isn't that hard since the hits are so close together.

I'll tell the Ikes and Toon Links of the world that they're filled with suckitude, because apparently when Emblem Lord says it it's right.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Did you know there's a matchup chart right here in tactical discussion? Obviously not, because you apparently haven't looked at it. Ivysaur has plenty of advantageous matchups.
And I'm not arguing that Ivysaur is a sub-par character, but come on... not bottom tier. Save that one for the characters that truly have no advantages that can be used.

That match-up chart is complete bull ****. There is no way you could be taking that heap of **** seriously.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Toon Link rocks your nuts off.

Ike is ok.

Ivysaur does not beat either of them if that's what you are implying.

I meant she only beats the really bad characters.

I think it's fairly obvious when a character isn't good. Don't gimme that crap.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Double post but **** it.

VulgarHandGestures: your matchwith that Lucas was meaningless. You are not at the pinnacle of skill and I don't even know if you were evenly matched.

Did that Lucas abuse what makes his character good? Did he try to gimp you? Dod you abuse what makes Ivysaur good.

I don't know.

Either way, it means nothing and I'm done talking about this.

Ivysaur is not a good character. Case closed.

ivysaur is a decent character at worst. the worst thing about it, the tether recovery, isn't terrible at all. i got around that by tossing a razor leaf, that oh-so-worthless projectile you mentioned, before vine whipping. tether problem solved.

i don't know why you think ivysaur is such a bad character. if it's just the fact that you feel ivysaur doesn't build damage fast enough, that is purely an opinion. i don't have problems building damage at all.

 

[KernelColonel]

Every time Ivysaur dies, which is really often, you have to switch twice just to go back to him. That takes away from Ivysaur's invicibility frames.

A gimpable recovery is always tough to make into a good character. Squirtle and even Charizard are far superior to Ivysaur in that department. Hell, even ZSS has a third jump to make up for the tethered gimpability.

Ivysaur is also just a little too slow. Slow...hard to keep in play...gimpable recovery...you commend his strength, but what slow character DOESN'T have that? Ivysaur is about as fast as Bowser. Bad thing.

What makes people think that Ivysaur is good, let alone not-near-bottom-tier?